Archeologists unearth King David era temple near Jerusalem

Dec 28, 2012 by Bob Yirka report
Archeologists unearth King David era temple near Jerusalem
Figurines of a person. Photograph: Clara Amit, courtesy of the Israel Antiquities Authority

(Phys.org)—Israel's Antiquities Authority (IAA) has announced that archeologists have unearthed a temple within walking distance of Jerusalem that appears to be approximately 2,750 years old. Artifacts found inside the temple suggest that despite the ban on idol worship at the time, those who visited the temple continued to engage in such practices.

The temple was discovered as part of a dig at a site known as Tel Motza, after the city of Mozah mentioned in the Old Testament. The site was first uncovered as construction began on what was to be a new freeway between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv back in the 90's. Since that time most researchers had concluded that the ancient community was little more than a storage facility for grain used by people in Jerusalem. This new find suggests however, that the settlement was more than that.

At the time that the temple was in use, a period during the King David era, the First Temple, in Jerusalem had already been built, and worshippers had been instructed to use it instead of other facilities to discourage the worship of various idols. Artifacts found inside the temple show that the people who visited the temple had chosen to ignore the decree and instead continued to idolize their icons as they chose. What's surprising, the researchers note, is how close the temple, and hence the ongoing idol worshiping practices, were to – close enough to walk.

Archeologists unearth King David era temple near Jerusalem
Figurine of a horse. Photograph: Clara Amit, courtesy of the Israel Antiquities Authority

The newly discovered temple has exceptionally thick walls and is situated facing towards the east, to take advantage of the rising sun – its rays would have illuminated the objects that sat inside the temple, a clear attempt to glorify them. The temple also had what the researchers believe was once an alter in the courtyard along with a host of sacred vessels – pottery fragments and pieces of chalices – likely used for ceremonial purposes.

The discovery of the temple has historians excited because very few of them from that era have survived to modern times. Also, notably, researchers have found figurines inside the temple, representing animals – and some human – that hint, they say, of a coastal Philistine influence. They note that much more research will have to be undertaken before an accurate picture of the and surrounding area can be made.

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rod_russell_9
3 / 5 (8) Dec 28, 2012
Did the study include any radiometric measurements to verify the age?
FMM
3.8 / 5 (6) Dec 28, 2012
We are told the paganism went on despite the bans; maybe the case is there were no bans -- that the bans are a projection of later attitudes onto the times.
EyeNStein
1.9 / 5 (9) Dec 28, 2012
The First Temple was built after Davids time by his son Solomon.
Lurker2358
3.6 / 5 (14) Dec 28, 2012
Artifacts found inside the temple suggest that despite the ban on idol worship at the time, those who visited the temple continued to engage in such practices.


It actually depends on which king was in power. Mannassah was an idol worshiper, and even Solomon himself was an idol worshiper, according to the only texts we have about them. Although under Solomon they didn't put the idols in THE temple, but he just made a different temple or altar for pretty much everything anyone worshiped. Mannasah actually put idols in THE temple and more than that as well.

this is about the time frame of Isaiah, supposedly, and yes the only texts we have claiming to be from this period claims that the land was "full of idols" and nearly everyone worshiped them. An "idol" is any false god, and especially any carving, icon, or engraving representing it, or in some cases actually believed to be the deity.

Almost nobody ever actually kept the Old Covenant law, technically nobody did.
OldGit
4.4 / 5 (7) Dec 28, 2012
They appear to have worshipped Bart Simpson
foofighter
2.9 / 5 (17) Dec 28, 2012
"Almost nobody ever actually kept the Old Covenant law, technically nobody did."

Thanks for your mindless regurgitation of the "total depravity" doctrine. St. Paul's bullsh*t aside, the truth is what archaeologists have been saying all along - basically what FMM said:

"We are told the paganism went on despite the bans; maybe the case is there were no bans -- that the bans are a projection of later attitudes onto the times."

All evidence indicates the Israelites practiced a folk religion. The monotheists won after the Babylonian Exile, and they created an epic saga for Israel which depicted the polytheism as a backsliding from an original pure covenant of monotheism revealed at Mt. Sinai. The reality of course is that what we have here is simple religious evolution, and the idolatry of the ancestors needed an explanation that didn't reveal this basic fact. Hence the backsliding theory.
Lurker2358
1.8 / 5 (10) Dec 28, 2012
All evidence indicates the Israelites practiced a folk religion. The monotheists won after the Babylonian Exile, and they created an epic saga for Israel which depicted the polytheism as a backsliding from an original pure covenant of monotheism revealed at Mt. Sinai. The reality of course is that what we have here is simple religious evolution, and the idolatry of the ancestors needed an explanation that didn't reveal this basic fact. Hence the backsliding theory.


There are surviving Ethiopian communities descended from Jewish prosolytes in Africa, supposedly from before the Diaspora, who still practice most of the ceremonial law. It's even claimed that they may have possessed the Ark of the Covenant at some time (though I doubt that part,) but your claim is totally false.

Even if the books we have are corrupted, which some of them probably are, there is enough evidence to show the gist of the historical components from before Babylonian exile are probably accurate.
Lurker2358
2.8 / 5 (9) Dec 28, 2012
Thanks for your mindless regurgitation of the "total depravity" doctrine.


Total depravity does not need to be true for what I said to be true.

I've never met a person who has never told at least one lie, nor coveted at least one time. Ever.
Torbjorn_Larsson_OM
5 / 5 (9) Dec 28, 2012
"Artifacts found inside the temple show that the people who visited the temple had chosen to ignore the decree". This is taken from the abrahamic myths themselves. Once again archaeological results are perverted by "biblical scholars" religious interests. I hear religious historians have given up on getting to the actual history.

But some things can be ascertained. The earliest artifacts from the abrahamic religions that I know of are the Dead Sea scrolls, dated to ~ 400 BCE to ~ 200 CE. They show what even biblical scholars now accept, that the early religion wasn't yet divided into recognizable sects. It also shows how it was a melting pot based on greek pagan syncretism.
Torbjorn_Larsson_OM
5 / 5 (6) Dec 28, 2012
[cont] The nearest and early influential abrahamic religious center is Alexandria, which Alexander founded before 400 BCE after clearing his back of the coastal cities before going after inland Persia. It was an analogous melting pot of greek, egyptian and judean city parts, where the latter included merchants from the ransacked Tyros of "canaanite" semitic phoenicians and those related to the leveled Gaza citadel all of whom surely carried a grudge.

This find tests well that the judean cultures were non-abrahamic polytheists, and that the abrahamic religions likely arose later than ~ 750 BCE. Similar tests is that the common texts mentions an actual historical king ~ 200 BCE, but gets the king order wrong so was written a distance away. And finally christian texts, that arises earliest ~ 150 CE, mentions a judean historical king at the same time, so knew the area more intimately. This is the time when the religion spread around the hellenic coastal cities around the Mediterranean.
Torbjorn_Larsson_OM
5 / 5 (7) Dec 28, 2012
@ Lurker, foofighter: The myths themselves are irrelevant to anchor the historical context, in as much as they don't agree with it. Over 99 % of the myth texts is known to be outright erroneous or irrelevant for history.

Specifically the myth of the babylonian exile is not validated by any finds or historical texts what I know of. It may have happened. But the myth of the egyptian slavery archaeologists know didn't happen (no migration finds, uninterrupted local culture throughout so neither mass capture nor return). So I think there is little likelihood other "exile" myths have some historical background.

What the texts got correct were a few cities, some of the cultural change and at least two kings (but see the reversal of the king order).

That egyptians are at the root of the religious phylogeny isn't surprising, see my notes of a likely Alexandrian origin or at least early influence. The first christian personages were from there, such as the first "pope" head of church.
foofighter
2 / 5 (8) Dec 28, 2012
"There are surviving Ethiopian communities descended from Jewish prosolytes in Africa, supposedly from before the Diaspora, who still practice most of the ceremonial law. It's even claimed that they may have possessed the Ark of the Covenant at some time (though I doubt that part,) but your claim is totally false. Even if the books we have are corrupted, which some of them probably are, there is enough evidence to show the gist of the historical components from before Babylonian exile are probably accurate. report"

Assertions assertions assertions. No evidence. A bunch of negro converts doesn't prove a thing either. Where is the evidence those communities are pre-Babylonian exile? There is none. It's all wishful thinking. And anyone with half a brain can read the Deuteronomistic history and see all the heavy political and religious editing. But you don't wanna see it, cuz you want zombie jesus to be for realz.
foofighter
2.6 / 5 (8) Dec 28, 2012
On the other hand, all the evidence in archaeology shows how pagan and polytheistic 1st Temple Israelites were. When you combine that with the admissions of the Hebrew Bible concerning how pagan they were, and use a little critical thinking about how the one nation to experience god firsthand at Mt. Sinai also is the most sinful - about how this situation just makes no sense, it begins to become clear that the most rational explanation is that the amazing miracles of the earliest days (Moses, Joshua) are just epic origins stories, and the Israelite population in general is just a Canaanite offshoot that sought to differentiate itself from its neighbors. The entire biblical record lacks historicity until the middle of the book of Kings - this is acknowledged by everyone, as far as the evidence record goes. You can have faith that the whole or most of the bible is true, that's fine and all - but don't pretend that there is actual evidence of anything b4 divded monarchy - thats just bs
foofighter
2.9 / 5 (9) Dec 28, 2012
and considering how the material culture, alphabet, and language of the israelites is not unique - the phoenicians ammonites, canaanites, moabites, all had variants of the same material culture and hebrew language and alphabet - there is nothing unique about israel other than the epic saga they crafted concerning their origins.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (26) Dec 28, 2012
"Archeologists unearth King David era temple near Jerusalem"

-They should pick another name for this era because the kingdoms of solomon and david as described in the bible NEVER EXISTED.

"...at the time of the kingdoms of David and Solomon, Jerusalem was populated by only few hundred residents or less, which is insufficient for an empire stretching from the Euphrates to Eilath. According to The Bible Unearthed, archaeological evidence suggests that the kingdom of Israel at the time of Solomon was little more than a small city state..."

"the earliest independent reference to the Kingdom of Israel is about 890 BC, and for Judah about 750 BC."

"The archaeological remains that are considered to date from the time of Solomon are notable for the fact that Canaanite material culture appears to have continued unabated; there is a distinct lack of magnificent empire, or cultural development"

-Empires equal to the egyptians, hittites, babylon... WERE NEVER THERE.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (25) Dec 28, 2012
Mannassah was an idol worshiper, and even Solomon himself was an idol worshiper, according to the only texts we have about them.
The only texts we have about the biblical Manassah are the bible, and for obvious reasons these dont count.

The archeological record contains no evidence whatsoever for manassah as described in the bible.
http://www.academ...Manasseh
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.9 / 5 (25) Dec 28, 2012
"Some biblical scholars view this as postdiction, an eponymous metaphor providing an aetiology of the connectedness of the tribe to others in the Israelite confederation. The text of the Torah argues that the name of Manasseh is etymologically derived from the root נשה naah, which means to forget, and goes on to argue that it refers to Joseph forgetting his troubles and his father's household, on account of the actions of God"
http://en.wikiped...riticism

-In other words, fiction. Re; joseph his father;

"Modern day scholars believe the historicity of the events in the Joseph narrative cannot be demonstrated. Hermann Gunkel, Hugo Gressmann and Gerhard von Rad identified the story of Joseph as a literary composition, in the genre of romance, or the novella. As a novella, it is read as reworking legends and myths..."

-In other words, FICTION.
Jag_Pop
2.4 / 5 (7) Dec 28, 2012
Don't have to dig very deep to see what lies beneath this article.

Big bold title words:
"King David"
"Jerusalem"

first paragraph:
"Mozah mentioned in the Old Testament"
"used by people in Jerusalem"

Second paragraph:
"King David era, the First Temple, in Jerusalem"

Fourth paragraph:
"that hint, they say, of a coastal Philistine influence"

The Philistine's get minimal billing with a "hint" and an "influence".

But no "hints" or "influence" for what the artifacts ***show*** about the King David era and the First Temple:

"Artifacts found inside the temple show that the people who visited the temple had chosen to ignore the decree"

That is pretty clear isn't it.

brodix
2 / 5 (4) Dec 28, 2012
Interesting article in Spiegel this summer:
http://www.spiege...144.html
It suggests to me that Christianity started out as a Samaritan diaspora. I'm wondering if anyone else thinks this may help explain why it persevered in the early centuries.
TheRulingQueen
1 / 5 (3) Dec 29, 2012
Well, the previous comments have proven one thing my daddy always said - you can't talk politics or religion in polite company. My question is, as AC/DC asks, who made who????
Jag_Pop
2 / 5 (8) Dec 29, 2012
A gentleman in Ontaria sneezes and a passerby immediately utters a polite "gesundheit". Another passerby, a zionist, ruminates outloud how such a sneeze could have once been heard outside the walls of The Temple In Jerusalem during the era of King David - *another* confirmation of the jews everlasting connection to The Holy Land and by extension *another* confirmation of the zionists right to the territory.

Here we have an article about artifacts and the building in which they were contained. The artifacts suggest idol worship and a Philistine connection. There isn't even a sneeze of a connection to judaism.

Noting how antithetical the size and location of the building and it's proposed purpose are to judaism only creates an opportunity to soak the air with a narrative - nay, a confirmation - about ... well, read the article:

Big bold TITLE words:
King David era temple near Jerusalem

A sneeze heard round the world.
klawy
5 / 5 (6) Dec 29, 2012
Religious people can you answere me one simple question - why are there several religions? If God ever existed why dont we all beleive in the same? And why has he not been with us throughout our whole existance? If he ever existed and wanted us to know about him, why dont we all just know him from our birth? How come that we have to be indoctorined inorder to beleive in him?
foofighter
1.7 / 5 (11) Dec 29, 2012
The truth that Christians don't want you to know is that the 2 billion Christians around the world are just a supreme test of faith set up by Baal to sift through the masses for His Chosen Ones who remain loyal. In fact, the mass abandonment of the pagan Gods of Old was set up by Baal and His father El's Divine Council - they let the Gentiles embrace a partial monotheism through a tri-une interpretation of Yahweh as the ultimate test of faith in Baal. See what wonders you can work when you throw evidence out the window? (Take note Christians) Anyone can claim anything. Praise to Baal, Master of the Sky, Lord of the Heavens! In the end of days, every tongue shall swear, and every knee shall bow, to MIGHTY PRINCE BAAL. And Jesus and the Hebrew profits shall be forced to moisten Baal's sack with their tongues for eternity. That is their eternal punishment for leading billions to Yahweh, the false abomination. /spit
FrankHerbert
2 / 5 (12) Dec 29, 2012
The funny thing, at one point, Baal was just another Semitic god on par with Yahweh. Yahweh's followers happened to be more brutal and converted/whiped out the others.
DavidW
1.7 / 5 (11) Dec 29, 2012
And with all that said by you all, truth and life are still the only things that have ever, currently do, and ever will save this world.

The dead sea scrolls are the oldest copies of the many of the books of the bible we have. Very interesting how the text of the old scripture we have today, 2000 years later, are almost identical. At least little change there. They also prove that Christ really existed. Yeah, that guy who said truth and life are the only way to god, a long time ago before anyone else. Yeah, that guy who gave his life to teach others. Yeah, the guy who said love your neighbor as much as yourself. The guy who said heaven and earth would pass away and that the truth is eternal.

Just the smartest guy ever... only to be dismissed by those wishing to do harm.

We are not Christians or Jew. We are living human animals that are important and equal under the truth.

We are here. We are alive. The world is saved. Smart guy. Truth and Life are equal to God and REAL!
DavidW
1.6 / 5 (13) Dec 29, 2012
"Nothing will benefit human health and increase the chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet."

― Albert Einstein

"Love God with all your heart, sould and mind.
Love your neighbor as much as youself."
- Jesus Christ

Christ covered more with less words and no science...
2000 years earlier!

If the goal is to do the most good, Christ had it correct first. That makes him the first. See how smart? Brilliant!

Nothing anyone can do or say can ever change that truth.

The truth is the master. That's how it really is. On the knees acceptance of the truth as master is required of us all.
foofighter
2.8 / 5 (9) Dec 29, 2012
what the hell are you talking about? jesus was quoting leviticus with love thy neighbor and isaiah already said that heaven and earth shall pass away but the truth shall remain forever. the only thing original jesus said was turn the other cheek - not very practical advice. and how exactly do the dead sea scrolls prove jesus existed? fucking moron
DavidW
1.6 / 5 (13) Dec 29, 2012
Religious people can you answer me one simple question –
Why are there several religions?
If God ever existed why don't we all believe in the same?
And why has he not been with us throughout our whole existence?
If he ever existed and wanted us to know about him, why don't we all just know him from our birth?
How come that we have to be indoctrinated in order to believe in him?


You asked 5 questions.
#1 - People don't follow the truth sometimes.
#2 - We are created to choose. We have choice.
#3 – Truth and life have been with us always.
#4 – We do. We all observe we are alive; life is real. We all observe that we can't change the past; truth is real.
#5 – The only way to know God is through truth and life. J/C
If it's not the truth, it's not real. :p
DavidW
1.7 / 5 (12) Dec 29, 2012
what the hell are you talking about? jesus was quoting leviticus with love thy neighbor and isaiah already said that heaven and earth shall pass away but the truth shall remain forever. the only thing original jesus said was turn the other cheek - not very practical advice. and how exactly do the dead sea scrolls prove jesus existed? fucking moron


He was the first to say all that representing himself as the truth itself. Those guys didn't claim to be the Word of God.

As for the moron.... that's a false a label. You just lied right there. The truth says I am important when the truth says the most important thing in life is life. However, you have attempted to place yourself over the truth. No man is above the law. Any man that attempts to place himself above the law has sinned. That's what you did. Forgiveness is practical.
Jag_Pop
2.3 / 5 (6) Dec 30, 2012
Anyone else note the irony?

The artifacts show idol worship. Monotheist judaism *rejects* idol worship.

"We want the entire world to take note of these idols. We are proudly demonstrating our connection to the inhabitants of the ancient land around Jerusalem through our self-worshipping display of these Idols."
jsdarkdestruction
2.3 / 5 (6) Dec 30, 2012
davidw
"The Dead Sea Scrolls are traditionally divided into three groups: "Biblical" manuscripts (copies of texts from the Hebrew Bible), which comprise roughly 40% of the identified scrolls; Other manuscripts (known documents from the Second Temple Period like Enoch, Jubilees, Tobit, Sirach, additional psalms, etc., that were not ultimately canonized in the Hebrew Bible), which comprise roughly 30% of the identified scrolls; "
thats a pretty big change, the dead sea scroll people seemed to think they were important and should be considered part of the holy doctrine. yet they are no longer taken as what should be passed on in the bible.
foofighter
1.6 / 5 (8) Dec 30, 2012
jag pop - i dont know if you're just a hardcore liberal or a follower of the pedophile - but it doesn't matter what the religion of the israelites was. the jews are descended from the inhabitants of the land - although i'm sure under your tinfoil hat that tiny brain of yours believes the long-discredited khazar conspiracy theory concerning the origins of ashkenazic jewry, a theory that no academic today takes seriously, except maybe 'scholars' in the world of the followers of the pedophile who also believe that the 'protocols' is a legitimate work.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.1 / 5 (25) Dec 30, 2012
1 People don't follow the truth sometimes.
This is what all the religions say about yours. Newsflash - 19 Shiites blown up in Pakistan... Protestants threaten to do same to police in northern Ireland. YOUR TRUTH KILLS.
2 We are created to choose. We have choice.
No, god knew us before we were in the womb. And Jesus condemns us to eternal torture after death and our religionist neighbors persecute us while we are alive. Some choice.
3 Truth and life have been with us always.
But none of the major things in the bible ever HAPPENED. This is not truth.
4 truth is real.
But the bible is not truth.
5
If it's not the truth, it's not real. :p
-Which means that, since the bible describes people who never existed (Adam, Moses, Joshua) and events that never happened (flood, exodus, solomons kingdom), it is not the truth. Therefore the god who wrote it cannot be real. So Dave are you wiling to accept your own equation or not?

Faith is belief DESPITE evidence. A Lie.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.9 / 5 (24) Dec 30, 2012
the long-discredited khazar conspiracy theory concerning the origins of ashkenazic jewry, a theory that no academic today takes seriously
Religionists have tried to discredit this but have failed. Dr shlomo sand of tel aviv university and many others DO think this is the case.
http://www.youtub...a_player

-And dr sand is no crank. But he IS a Jew.
DavidW
1.6 / 5 (14) Dec 30, 2012
The truth says the most important thing in life is life.

I realize your mind has become infected with some sort of disease Otto. You making stuff up, like how the truth says to kill needlessly, then saying others are doing it. Can you see the reflection of yourself in your words that we can easily see? I hope you get some good help.
DavidW
1.6 / 5 (14) Dec 30, 2012
I believe in placing my faith in truth and life; real things that do exist that are our only connection to God.

Don't expect anything to be resolved without truth and life. Seems pretty reasonable to me, not how you represent everything about God, truth and life as how the majority of the the people see it in some typical brainwashed down the rabbit hole fashion.
DavidW
1.6 / 5 (13) Dec 30, 2012
"The Dead Sea Scrolls are traditionally divided into three groups: ...


All irrelivant to containing the older copies of many books of the bible and the point made that there has been little change in the words over 2000 years.
DavidW
1.6 / 5 (14) Dec 30, 2012
I agree that there are many things in the bible that are not truth.
I agree that saying a book is the Word of God is silly. Truth and Life are the Word of God.
The child that is on the dirt starving, blind, and deaf, cannot access such text. Yet, God is still knowable through truth and life for that child.
Those that crave the young, the innocent, the smooth skin and freshness of a child are behaving selfishly to think they are entitled or worthy to receive such things.

We cannot be a Jew. That would be a lie. It's judaism, a belief. We are not what we believe Otto. We are life. We are animals. We are equal. Our choices are not.
DavidW
1.6 / 5 (14) Dec 30, 2012
As for Christ crying out, 'Why have you forsaken me?'
This is direct evidence of his innocence in that moment. He may have made mistakes before that, but he died an innocent man. No other man has ever died innocent to the witness of the world that promoted truth and life as the way to god and proclaimed himself as the Word of God.
We must look past the endless brainwashing found in religions and understand that for ALL practicable purposes, Christ fulfills everything necessary to actually be the Word of God before his time is done.
We are here, so the world is saved by truth and life, the Word of God. Nash your teeth all you want, none of us can change the past. (None of us is above the truth)
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (24) Dec 30, 2012
The truth says the most important thing in life is life.
Ah I see. You are willfully ignorant of your own book.

"25 Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life." John12

-YOUR GOD says that HE is the most important thing in life. And When required, you are to forfeit your life for him.

This is the essence of martyrdom. Presenting oneself to other religionists for killing is every bit as evil as killing for ones god. BOTH are required of adherents in any religion you choose to examine, including YOURS. Observe copts in cairo.
I realize your mind has become infected with some sort of disease Otto. You making stuff up, like how the truth says to kill needlessly
Needlessly. In contrast to what joshua did to the canaanites I suppose?

There were never 2M jews in goshen. During the time of the exodus, sinai and the levant were occupied by egyptian soldiers. Etc. How do you rationalize these things??
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.1 / 5 (25) Dec 30, 2012
As for Christ crying out, 'Why have you forsaken me?' This is direct evidence of his innocence in that moment. He may have made mistakes before that, but he died an innocent man.
Again, your ignorance. This is only recorded in Mark, the first of the gospels. The author may have been trying to emphasize that jesus was a man. Later gospels tried to sell the notion of the godman hybrid, and someone added the last 11 verses to Mark to confirm that he indeed arose and walked around a bit.

So much for the unalterable word of god. SO many examples.
No other man has ever died innocent... We must look past the endless brainwashing found in religions and understand
You mean the other religions dont you? Because how can you be brainwashed with the truth? Haha.

Jesus often referred to OT stories and characters which we now know are fiction. If he were god he should have known better. Ergo, he was not. Myths are untrue by definition, correct?
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.9 / 5 (27) Dec 30, 2012
Hey dave

"Tel Aviv University archaeologist Ze'ev Herzog wrote in the Haaretz newspaper:

"This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, YHWH, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai."

-So why has your god forsaken you faithers? Why does all the hard evidence indicate that your book is MADE UP?
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (24) Dec 30, 2012
Hey dave

"Bart D. Ehrman and Raymond E. Brown note that some of the Pauline epistles are widely regarded by scholars as pseudonymous, and it is the view of Timothy Freke, and others, that this involved a forgery in an attempt by the Church to bring in Paul's Gnostic supporters and turn the arguments in the other Epistles on their head."

-Check out more of the evidence and educate yourself.
http://en.wikiped...he_Bible

-Accepting it however would mean giving up your faith and resigning yourself to living with reality. Have you the courage to do this?
foofighter
2.7 / 5 (11) Dec 30, 2012
ghost: i am not a religionist. dr. sand is a fringe scholar and not the mainstream. you can quote anyone to espouse any view. it doesn't matter. why not quote david duke to prove the holocaust never happened? or quote a flat-earth scholar to prove a flat earth? i don't give a shit. as an atheist, i can tell you that aside from fringe nuts, no one takes the khazar theory seriously. the proof is that every genetic study bears this out - ashkenazi jews are always found with middle eastern markers in their haplotypes. i'm sure evidence doesn't matter to you though in this issue, because you're probably an emotional antisemite who has a vested interest in discrediting any jewish linkage to the israelites.
foofighter
2.5 / 5 (11) Dec 30, 2012
Plus - if the israelites are just another culture with a false religion and false god, which I believe they are, why are you so intent on severing any jewish connection to them? Isn't it enough that the God of Israel and the Torah are a fairy tale? Then the israelites are nothing special, and who cares if the Jews are descended from them? The fact that you keep on going and going until you discredit everything and all things jewish pulls the cat out of the bag on your motives and intentions.
DavidW
1.6 / 5 (14) Dec 30, 2012
Attempts to define the truth with math and science are not ever going to work.

The truth (The Word of God) says, "The most important thing in life is life." We cannot consider this without life.

I really don't care what you read or say. It means nothing if it is not the truth. Learn to listen.
DavidW
1.6 / 5 (13) Dec 30, 2012
I do hate the suffering in this world otto. You are confusing two different points as the same thing. Life is best without needless suffering. I realize it may appear and even feel difficult to behave humble, but only in this way do we embrace the truth for what it really is.

He did know better (completely), right before he died. It takes work to get it right. He was no exception to this. He was a man that was never above the truth.

Life exists.
We are alive.
The most important thing in life is life.
Truth exists.

Start there and stick to that. Nothing that challenges the above observations of truth and life in ANY WAY is real, and thus a lie. As that is the center of all reality.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.7 / 5 (27) Dec 30, 2012
the proof is that every genetic study bears this out - ashkenazi jews are always found with middle eastern markers
So? As dr sand rightly points out, the ME is a melting pot and it is easy to infer ancestry of most any sort.

Sorry but your info and your opinion are outdated and this issue is far from settled. I suggest you bring yourself up to speed.

For instance you claim that the theory is racially-motivated but dr sand is a jew. And the politics of israel at this critical point in history is a much stronger influence on scientific opinion, than anti-semitism. The unadopted israeli constitution states that jews are the rightful inhabitants of samaria and judea. And this would be problematic if ashkenazi ancestors were from khazar.

The myth of moses and the Diaspora
http://www.consor...809.html
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (26) Dec 30, 2012
The truth (The Word of God) says, "The most important thing in life is life." We cannot consider this without life.
And since I showed you that the word of god says something else, I would have to conclude that you cannot distinguish truth from untruth.
Learn to listen
Learn to read.

Luke 14:25-33 ESV
"Now great crowds accompanied him, and he turned and said to them, "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple."

-Your religion is only another death cult. Your life is only supposed to begin if you successfully pass the gauntlet of sin and temptation of this life with your faith intact.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (24) Dec 30, 2012
Then the israelites are nothing special, and who cares if the Jews are descended from them?
The truth matters.
The fact that you keep on going and going until you discredit everything and all things jewish
Well thats not a valid extrapolation now is it?
pulls the cat out of the bag on your motives and intentions.
-And so if I (and dr sand) fail to agree with you, then our motivations are somehow anti-semitic? Grow up. As davidw says the truth shall set you free.
baudrunner
3.2 / 5 (9) Dec 30, 2012
I wonder what the archaeologists 4,000 years from now are going to say about that odd thing I have in the corner of the room, I mean, why do they have to apply religiosity to everything they find from a few thousand years ago? Does every ancient statue of some nude voluptuous female have to be some kind of fertility symbol? Those two Figurines of a person in the first image in the article are probably a couple of travelers from France who were just visiting, and whose host had them done up in clay to show his respect. Probably.
foofighter
2.3 / 5 (9) Dec 30, 2012
otto: according to what you just replied to me - aren't khazars europeans? if the jews have middle eastern markers then they are middle easterners of some kind - meaning even though the ME is a melting pot with all types, they arent khazar europeans.
foofighter
3 / 5 (6) Dec 30, 2012
all you quote is dr sand - he's fringe dude - you didnt address that issue - if all you have to quote is one scholar in french studies about a ME issue, then you fail
foofighter
3 / 5 (6) Dec 30, 2012
just come clean already and call the holocaust a hoax for us otto - it'll make this debate a lot more painless
DavidW
1.6 / 5 (13) Dec 30, 2012
Otto, there is no other way to know God, But by truth and life. For all practicable purposes, the reality of truth and life are the most important. The connection to God only occurs after accepting truth and life first.

If we wish to argue that life is not the most important thing in life, we will need life to do it with. Failing to accept that truth is failing accept truthful reality. We must accept the truth as first and first accept the truth, as guide, as Master, and as a creation of God.

If we do not accept that the most important thing in life is life, through equal observation, then we are talking theory, and nothing is really provable and we have denied the truthful confines from which we can think at all.

I get that you want to read over it, but the truth will not change. Any discussion must start at the truth or it contains some sort of diversion from the truth.
baudrunner
3.3 / 5 (7) Dec 30, 2012
@DavidW: From what I read and hear about God, if he were close enough to you to witness your pandering of Him then he would no doubt smite you dead for your impertinence.
DavidW
1.6 / 5 (13) Dec 30, 2012
We may not know what exact lie is being told. It is enough that we know something is not truthful at the core.
Whatever the lie or deception, no matter how insurmountable it may appear to logically figure out, if the argument, debate, or conversation does not start and completely adhere to the truth it is exactly: 'The down the rabbit hole' stuff equivalent complete fantasy.
We have 7 billion people folks. That's huge responsibility. Peace be with you all.
DavidW
1.6 / 5 (13) Dec 30, 2012
@DavidW: From what I read and hear about God, if he were close enough to you to witness your pandering of Him then he would no doubt smite you dead for your impertinence.


What we read and hear is irrelevant and is locked into the confines of theory, if it is not the truth.
extinct
2.3 / 5 (6) Dec 30, 2012
and if there are artifacts related to human use of psychedelic substances like tryptamines in this pre- Jesus Christ unearthing, how many people seriously think we would be told about it, versus how many people suspect that it would be suppressed as taboo information which could topple religions and societies? I'm in the latter camp. It's lonely over here, LOL
cantdrive85
3.2 / 5 (13) Dec 30, 2012
Who cares, bulldoze it to make room for more jooish "settlers".
obama_socks
1.5 / 5 (16) Dec 31, 2012
Who cares, bulldoze it to make room for more jooish "settlers".
-cantdrive85

They'll probably do more of that anyway...build more Jewish settlements in the West Bank and elsewhere. Probably not where this temple is...since the article says it's within walking distance of Jerusalem.
Those 2 little heads in the picture might not be idols after all. Have you ever seen a little child pull the head off of a Barbie doll? (hint hint)

Another alternative: the picture doesn't give the measurements of the heads, but if the heads are hollow like FrankHerbert/Blotto's head, they MIGHT have been "finger puppets", where you put your index finger into the hole in the head and wrap a piece of cloth around your hand. to make a finger puppet.
Blotto will now try to make a finger puppet. But first he has to pull his head out of his ass before he can put his finger in it. Either place will do.

Muahahahahahahahh
cantdrive85
2.6 / 5 (15) Dec 31, 2012
Those aren't finger puppets, those are itty bitty cockpuppets for sockpuppets.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.6 / 5 (23) Dec 31, 2012
otto: according to what you just replied to me - aren't khazars europeans? if the jews have middle eastern markers then they are middle easterners of some kind - meaning even though the ME is a melting pot with all types, they arent khazar europeans.
Instead of asking, why dont you just look these things up yourself?

"The Khazars (Old Turkic: IPA: [hɑ'zɑɾ]) were semi-nomadic Turkic people who established one of the largest polities of medieval Eurasia..."
http://en.wikiped.../Khazars
http://en.wikiped..._900.jpg

"The Turkic peoples are a collection of ethnic groups that live in northern, eastern, central and western Asia, northwestern China and parts of eastern Europe...It is generally agreed that the first Turkic people lived in a region extending from Central Asia to Siberia with the majority of them living in China historically."

-And those in khazaria would have been swept westward by arabs, kievan rus, and others.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.6 / 5 (23) Dec 31, 2012
Many proponents both jew and non-jew; the Jewish Zionist novelist Arthur Koestler...sephardim certainly...the Christian Identity Movement, Black Hebrews, British Israelitists and others (particularly Arabs) who claim that they, rather than Jews, are the true descendants of the Israelites.

I always thought the idea that the british aristocracy being the rightful heirs to the throne of david was interesting.
http://www.johnpr...one.html

-Especially since, as the kingdoms of solomon and david are now known to be fabrications, we can speculate that the euro dynasties were in fact the Heirs of the People who Concocted the biblical myths.

All the euro dynasties were direct descendents of charlemagne. All were related, intermarried. It was as if a single crime family ruled over an entire continent for 1000 years, moving borders, staging wars, and keeping the people subjugated in feudalism.

And thats exactly what it was. But They wrote the laws.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.6 / 5 (22) Dec 31, 2012
Another alternative: the picture doesn't give the measurements of the heads, but if the heads are hollow
So lying dimwit you have yet to answer question posed in the other thread, as to why you would think scientists would invent fish that would extinct themselves. So I thought I would ask you here.

Inventing fish that would extinct themselves would be somewhat counterproductive dont you think? Kind of like a 'zero child per family' law in china, to achieve zero growth.

Perhaps they considered that but rejected it. And the comrade who suggested it was probably shot before he had a chance to spawn more imbeciles like himself, dont you think?
obama_socks
1 / 5 (10) Dec 31, 2012
And I answered your questions in the other thread, idiot.
If they are all female, how would they breed to replenish the "species"?
-is what you said. Why wouldnt scientists KNOW this?? Why would anyone ASK such a STUPID QUESTION unless -Blotto

Apparently, you missed this in the article: "The fish would be bred female and sterile, though a very small percentage might still be able to breed."
It says 'MIGHT still be able to breed'. This means that THERE IS A POSSIBILITY, but it is not definite. They will ALL be bred FEMALE. That means there will be NO MALES.
Once again…It means that out of all the FEMALE fish who are sterile, a very small percentage of the females MIGHT STILL BE ABLE TO BREED, you asshole. That means that the females who ARE able to breed, if they escape and get out, MIGHT be able to BREED with normal male salmon.
Theghostofotto1923's failure at reading comprehension of even the simplest sentences continues to prove its stupidity and insanity.
Jag_Pop
2.3 / 5 (6) Jan 01, 2013
Amazing how easy it is to smoke people.

Amazing, don't you think?

Here we have an archeological find that goes against zionist dogma - Philistine "influenced" IDOLS in a large building unearthed within walking distance of where the First Temple was supposed to be.

It is hard (if not impossible) to find evidence of King David.
Why is that? 1) Because erosion and upheavals have destroyed it? Or 2) because it was never there?

But if you can find IDOLS and a large building housing then
what does that say about explanation 1) and by extension 2) ?

So what is a zionist to do when they have an archeological find that goes against zionist dogma?

Generate smoke. Just chatter about the dogma; keep your chin high; smile; generate headlines that speak of the dogma and rebury the artifact evidence in a flurry of distracting smoke.

How much smoke to you see in the TITLE for heaven's sake?
First paragraph? Second paragraph?

Well, what is a zionist to do?

Write articles like this, of course.
foofighter
4 / 5 (4) Jan 01, 2013
Jag pop - i definitely empathize with what you are saying, and i am by all means ready to admit that there was no king david, or that he was just a tribal chieftain, with one condition. if he did exist in any capacity, great or small, most of the evidence would be buried in the old city, arab section of jerusalem, which has largely been left untouched by archaeologists and excavators. any evidence would likely be there. if a thorough search is someday done and absolutely nothing is found, then what you say would have a lot of merit.
Jeddy_Mctedder
2 / 5 (8) Jan 01, 2013
As a science loving jew i wonder how long it will take humanity to overcome our attachment to past tribalism ---itself a function of current tribalism. And it occurs to me that science will not turn us into the scifi borg cooperating under one hive brain. We are still humans reliant in humanity and millenias worth of aggregated eisdom in order to facilitate tribal cooperation.

No one knows where this grand experiment will lead. Techmology of the nonhuman kind...such as unmanned tools seem to be a major factor in future of our productivity agriculturemanufacturing and war making. Experience with The more sophisticated approaches towards manipulating the mind with modern biological labaratory techniques and modern pharmaceuticals seems to suggest the mind itself can be easily altered or agitated but not so easily 'improved' towards the goal of cooperation and self control/restraint. We remain as human and imperfect as the men who left these idols behind for us to discover.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.9 / 5 (21) Jan 01, 2013
And I answered your questions in the other thread, idiot.
Ha yeah I know.
It says 'MIGHT still be able to breed'. This means that THERE IS A POSSIBILITY, but it is not definite. They will ALL be bred FEMALE. That means there will be NO MALES.
AGAIN pussytard tries to outthink scientists. Pussytard, scientists know of many ways to fertilize fish eggs. Did you consider that scientists might know something you dont? No you did not. You thought you had discovered something quite obvious that SCIENTISTS would have missed.

This gives us a finite measurement of the degree of stupid that you possess.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (20) Jan 01, 2013
evidence would be buried in the old city
The kingdom of israel was said to stretch from the sinai to the euphrates. It was described as rivaling those of the phoenicians, hittites, assyrians, and even perhaps babylonians.

There is plenty of archeological evidence for those other cultures but absolutely none for israel. Solomon was said to have built large fortifications in many other cities; none have been found. Of the hittites:

"...the critical view...that, if the Hittites existed at all, "no Hittite king could have compared in power to the King of Judah...". As archaeological discoveries revealed the scale of the Hittite kingdom in the second half of the 19th Century, Archibald Henry Sayce postulated, rather than to be compared to Judah, the Anatolian civilization "[was] worthy of comparison to the divided Kingdom of Egypt..."

-AS SOON AS we began looking for the hittites we found plenty of evidence but, after 200 years, absolutely NONE for israel. None.
foofighter
4 / 5 (4) Jan 01, 2013
actually otto, the hittites mentioned in the bible were a canaanite people of the same name as the anatolian empire, but not the anatolian empire. However, feel free to keep downrating all of my posts and ironically telling me to grow up at the same time. You totally come here to engage in objective discussion, and arent just pounding away at the keyboard zealously, enjoying the sound of your own voice.
foofighter
4 / 5 (4) Jan 01, 2013
i just noticed you call people pussytard - are you 12? i'm done talking to you.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.7 / 5 (21) Jan 01, 2013
actually otto, the hittites mentioned in the bible were a canaanite people of the same name as the anatolian empire, but not the anatolian empire.
This has not been determined which I am sure you read if you googled my refs.
However, feel free to keep downrating all of my posts and ironically telling me to grow up at the same time.
Sorry I checked and I have downrated none of your posts. I dont typically downrate people who I am having a discussion with unless they become unreasonable. Your raters appear to be iterations of the pussytard person.
i just noticed you call people pussytard - are you 12? i'm done talking to you.
-So I won again. Yay. 'Pussytard' is someones nickname which just caught on.
Estevan57
2.3 / 5 (37) Jan 01, 2013
Otto considers it a "win" when people get didgusted with him and don't want to converse with him? Just AMAZING!
Estevan57
2.1 / 5 (35) Jan 01, 2013
ed: disgusted
obama_socks
1 / 5 (12) Jan 02, 2013
Actually, Blotto/Theghostofotto1923 doesn't seem to comprehend fully the articles that it accuses me of not understanding.
Blotto is referring to this thread: http://phys.org/n...html#jCp
I have tried to explain to Blotto that all the salmon are female and sterile and there are no male salmon at all in the bunch...and that the genetically engineered (GE) salmon cannot reproduce, except a very few MIGHT be able to breed. BUT those few cannot breed since there are no males available UNLESS the females escape and then they only MIGHT be able to breed with the males.
Blotto talks about the sterile female salmon being inseminated somehow. But NOWHERE IN THE ARTICLE DOES IT MENTION ANYTHING ABOUT SOME FORM OF INSEMINATION.
That means that Blotto is reading something INTO THE ARTICLE WHICH ISN'T THERE.
Blotto follows me and several other commenters around to accuse us of things that he makes up in his demented mind. BLOTTO MADE THE WORD "PUSSYTARD".
FrankHerbert
2 / 5 (12) Jan 02, 2013
What is it with dumbass obamas_cock and making himself look like an ass in articles with Jerusalem in the title?
http://phys.org/n...lem.html
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (25) Jan 02, 2013
the genetically engineered (GE) salmon cannot reproduce, except a very few MIGHT be able to breed. BUT those few cannot breed since there are no males available UNLESS the females escape and then they only MIGHT be able to breed with the males.
Blotto talks about the sterile female salmon being inseminated somehow. But NOWHERE IN THE ARTICLE DOES IT MENTION ANYTHING ABOUT SOME FORM OF INSEMINATION.
Hmmm... There seems to be some disconnect here in the abyss which is pussytards brain. Let's try to break the problem into increments...
1) Why would pussytard think she would discover such an obvious and fatal flaw that scientists would fail to notice?
2) Why would pussytard fail to realize that breeding involves the act of insemination?

Gosh if only I were in her Secret Other Physorg Club I could ask some real experts. Like psychiatrists and criminal pathologists. Oh well.

You are a fucking tragedy.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (22) Jan 02, 2013
What is it with dumbass obamas_cock and making himself look like an ass in articles with Jerusalem in the title?
http://phys.org/n...lem.html
Ahaahaaa that was a good one eh frank? Casting metal boomerangs in wax molds. In the floor. And then all the '900 foot-tall glass-headed Martian' bullshit. I should have kept a list.

What a fucking tragedy.
freethinking
3.3 / 5 (16) Jan 02, 2013
Anyone who uses TARD to describe or insult anyone is someone who like to bully. They are the same people who would go up to someone in school who was mentally handicaped, laugh at them and call them retards.

I don't care who you are, or what you believe, whether right wing or left wing, IF you call anyone a tard, you are a hateful bully who spits in the face of, and laugh at those who have mental handicaps.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.7 / 5 (23) Jan 02, 2013
Hello ft
I don't care who you are, or what you believe...IF you call anyone a tard, you are a hateful bully who spits in the face of, and laugh at those who have mental handicaps
-As you know it was not me who coined the term but vendicar. The 'tard' affectation is his thing not mine. He calls everyone tard, including you yes?

It is an abstraction of the 'retard' slur to be sure, but in this case it is used to acknowledge that obiewan here is indeed the pussycat_eyes person who earned the title; and to express the frustration that someone could continue to misuse this site by flooding and posting without at least researching; and to respond with yet more outrageous ignorance and invective when people rightfully take issue with this lazy and inconsiderate behavior.

I think this is selfish bullying as well dont you agree? If you are somehow mentally-challenged, please accept my apologies. Have I ever called you tard? No. I like to think I have more clever ways of insulting you.
RitchieGuy01
1.4 / 5 (10) Jan 03, 2013
ahhhh. . .GhostofOtto. . .kiss kiss my love. No one else on physorg is as smart as U. It is U who knows everything and nobody else knows as much as U do. They all just pretend to know just to impress U. I know that you laugh at everyone else that posts in your physorg. YES. . .this IS your physorg and nobody has the right to post their imbecillic junk without YOUR aproval. U hve been avoiding me lately, Ghost. Have U found another man to suuck on? When are we gonna get together again at our favorite motel darling. Remember all those nites we spent together in bed making love? It was pure heaven. I have missed you so much. I see that you're going after other men and looking for some pussytard. Why are you looking for pussy, darling? U KNOW you only love to suckee on me. I thought we were suppose ta get married. Those other men don't deserve you the way I do. I'll have to leave this message everywhere I find U. U have my number. . .give me a call, my precious sweetums

freethinking
2.9 / 5 (15) Jan 03, 2013
Anyone who uses the slur thrown at mentally challenged people, show their true nature and how bigoted they are.

You can call me any name under the book, but when anyone denigrates those that can't defend themselves (ie. mentally handicaped people) or use them as a slur, you show that you have no repect for anyone and that you don't deserve any respect.

Again, right wing or left wing, it doesn't matter. IF YOU USE retard as a slur you are denigrating those who cannot defend themselves.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (20) Jan 03, 2013
Anyone who uses the slur thrown at mentally challenged people, show their true nature and how bigoted they are.
So you seem to think pussytard - oh sorry, obamasocks - is mentally challenged? What do you base your opinion on?
you are denigrating those who cannot defend themselves
Gee it seems that ritchietard is making a valiant attempt. Heh.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.7 / 5 (21) Jan 03, 2013
And I dont really see 'tard' as a slur anyway, just a stylized indication of somebodys lazy ignorance. Like noob or moron. I bet vendicar agrees with me. Moron (psychology), disused term for a person with a mental age between 8 and 12...The word moron, along with others including, "idiotic", "imbecilic", "stupid", and "feeble-minded", was formerly considered a valid descriptor in the psychological ..." -See? People do not think these words are slurs against handicapped people any more.

Here you go;

"Tard
Any person who is not developmentally disabled, but rather has what is considered normal cognitive faculties but for whatever reason has opted out of using it. Whereas mental retardation is genetic in nature, this form of behavior is environmental usually resulting in too much daytime television, Brittany Spears piped in pop music, and other environmental factors."

-ok? Feel better now?
freethinking
2.9 / 5 (15) Jan 03, 2013
I don't feel better. Why? Because linking someone who is lazy to someone who is mentally disabled STILL demeans the mentally disabled.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.9 / 5 (19) Jan 03, 2013
I don't feel better. Why? Because linking someone who is lazy to someone who is mentally disabled STILL demeans the mentally disabled.
Well then you should not limit your criticism to me or vendicar, but extend it to all the people who have ever called you a moron or an idiot or a cretin or a pinhead or a simpleton or a bumblehead, all of which bear the same relationship to the mentally challenged as does the 'tard' moniker.

Take your time, you may have to spend the afternoon on this.
DavidW
1 / 5 (5) Feb 02, 2013
Anyone who uses the slur thrown at mentally challenged people, show their true nature and how bigoted they are.


It shows how they behave, not how they are. Everyone is important to the welfare of others, so we all should just stop lying and pretending like we don't understand that.

In the end we love each other very much. We make many mistakes, but we are not the mistakes themselves.

Your comment does not stike me that you are upset that Otto is missing himself by his comment. Only that others are important and that he is not. Better keep it real. If you want to state something "truth" ful and expect us to understand something, you had better stick to the truth in all the rest of it too.

No switching us between that what you say is the truth and therefore what you say is what matters. It's the truth that matters. SAo, stick to it or get called out hypocrisy when you don't.

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