Study shows increase in negative messages about Muslims in the media

Nov 29, 2012

Organizations using fear and anger to spread negative messages about Muslims have moved from the fringes of public discourse into the mainstream media since the Sept. 11 attacks, according to new research by a University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill sociologist.

Titled, "The Fringe Effect: Civil Society Organizations and the Evolution of Discourse about Islam since the September 11th Attacks," the study appears in the December issue of the .

Christopher Bail, an assistant professor of sociology in UNC's College of Arts and Sciences, used plagiarism detection software to track the influence of 1,084 press releases about Muslims from 120 organizations on more than 50,000 television transcripts and newspaper articles produced from 2001 to 2008.

"I found that organizations with negative messages about Muslims captivated the mass media after the Sept. 11 attacks, even though the vast majority of civil society organizations depict Muslims as peaceful, contributing members of American society," said Bail, who also is a Robert Wood Johnson Scholar at the University of Michigan. "As a result, public condemnations of terrorism by Muslims have received little media attention, but organizations spreading negative messages continue to stoke public fears that Muslims are secretly plotting to overthrow the U.S. government."

Bail said the mass media has not only contributed to the spread of negative messages about Islam, but also given fringe organizations the opportunity to raise funds and build social networks within elite conservative circles.

"They are now so much a part of the mainstream that they have been able to recast genuinely mainstream Muslim organizations as radicals," he said.

Most importantly, Bail added, "The of anti-Muslim sentiment in the American media not only tests foundational principles about religious tolerance, but may also validate foreign extremists who argue that the United States is at war with Islam, since American media messages routinely travel to the Middle East."

Bail is working on a book that expands on this study. The book will explain how fringe groups not only create cultural change in the , but also public policy and public opinion more broadly.

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Doug_Huffman
3.4 / 5 (13) Nov 29, 2012
Well duuh! The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order by S. P. Huntington.
antialias_physorg
3.8 / 5 (12) Nov 29, 2012
Organizations using fear and anger to spread negative messages about Muslims have moved from the fringes of public discourse into the mainstream media

Why is fear- and hate-mongering so alluring?

If people are generally decent then that shouldn't really take root as readily as it seems to.

There's plenty to criticise about religions (islam is certainly not the only one that deserves to be spotlighted). But if we could just let go of religious issues altogether the world might be a tad bit better off.
ShotmanMaslo
2.2 / 5 (9) Nov 29, 2012

Why is fear- and hate-mongering so alluring?

If people are generally decent then that shouldn't really take root as readily as it seems to.


Decency has little to do with this, decent people will fear and hate someone if they are misinformed.
Athenian
3.7 / 5 (12) Nov 29, 2012
The truth of the matter is that, there have been approximately 20,000 Is lamic ter rorist attacks around the world since 9/11, claiming over 100,000 lives and many more injured, sparing almost no country with a significant Mu slim population.

This site: thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks
meticulously documents those attacks:

An objective look at the list of the attacks there proves that the world most definitely has a deadly serious problem with violence committed in the name of Is lam. There is no other logical conclusion that one can draw from this evidence.
ryggesogn2
3.2 / 5 (22) Nov 29, 2012
Maybe, for once, journalists have leaked out a bit of truth.
Many Muslim countries only recently banned slavery.
Examine just about every conflict in the world today and you will find Muslims fighting each other, Christians and other religions.
Even in Scandinavia, Muslims can't get along with those tolerant, a-religious people.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.5 / 5 (27) Nov 29, 2012
Maybe, for once, journalists have leaked out a bit of truth.
Many Muslim countries only recently banned slavery.
But for xians like these guys its still SOP
http://en.wikiped...nce_Army
Examine just about every conflict in the world today and you will find Muslims fighting each other, Christians and other religions.
Even in Scandinavia, Muslims can't get along with those tolerant, a-religious people.
A more appropriate perspective is to view this as religionist communities growing at the maximum rate and fighting with their neighbors for housing, food, jobs, and the like. 'Warfare of the cradle' as teddy roosevelt called it.

The instructions are in ALL your books. You ALL think you have the exclusive right to Fill Up the Earth because your gods commanded you to.

"By propagation or by the gun." -is what this guy promises
http://www.youtub...pp_video
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (27) Nov 29, 2012
Religion evolves like anything else. Each learns from their forebears, enhancing what works and discarding what does not.

Islam is only a little better at reproductive aggression because they are the most recent Iteration arent they?

Religion is a caustic meme, a social virus. What is the cure?

Ryggy would claim that everybody need only adopt HIS religion and then the world would be saved. This mindset has proven to be a valuable asset to religions and all have retained it in their Iteration.

Along with the lies about immortality and wish-granting, exclusivity is something that rubes find irresistible. Where would religions be without them? Dead. Overrun. Absorbed. Extincted.
Noumenon
2.8 / 5 (24) Nov 29, 2012
Typical left wing dolt. Instead of concluding the obvious, this idiot, Christopher Bail, implies it is the Reaction to facts which are at fault, and are the Cause of radical Islamists to begin with.

There are enough hate filled radical Islamic fanatics who sympathize with terrorist acts, in the world, to aptly justify negative messages about Muslims, for decades to come. Instead of analyzing such messages for their own sake,... try analyzing the natural reaction that those messages represent.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (29) Nov 29, 2012
...violence committed in the name of Is lam. There is no other logical conclusion that one can draw from this evidence.
It is wrong to focus on any one religion. People can and will think it means that other religions offer safe and healthy alternatives; where in fact ALL religions promise exactly the same things and ALL are fully capable of eliciting in their followers the exact same behaviors that we fault islamism for. History very clearly tells us this.

It only takes a single generation for extremism to emerge. It can come from ANY religion in ANY part of the world. ALL their books contain explicit instructions for holy war and revolution, and all that it takes for a movement to take hold is for a kony or an ayotollah or a Hong Xiuquan to stand up with one of these books in his hand, and tell the poor and the frustrated and the hungry what to read.
http://en.wikiped...ebellion

ALL RELIGION IS ONE THING. Superstition no longer has a place in this world.
Noumenon
3.2 / 5 (24) Nov 29, 2012
violence committed in the name of Is lam. There is no other logical conclusion that one can draw from this evidence.
It is wrong to focus on any one religion.


No, it is wrong to imply equivalency wrt violence amongst religions, when the existing facts plainly demonstrate otherwise.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.7 / 5 (30) Nov 29, 2012
violence committed in the name of Is lam. There is no other logical conclusion that one can draw from this evidence
It is wrong to focus on any one religion.
No, it is wrong to imply equivalency wrt violence amongst religions, when the existing facts plainly demonstrate otherwise.
For THIS generation, in THIS period of time. You are being willfully myopic. You fail to consider either the past or the future. You fail to consider the content of all the major religions, which is essentially equivalent. You fail to acknowledge that ALL have behaved in exactly the same way in the past, and are fully capable of doing so in the future.

In the link above, joseph cohen swaps one virulent superstition for another one. Whats the point? This only puts him on the other side of a demilitarized zone.

If one exists then they ALL must exist, and we have to live with ALL of them, in whatever form they choose to take. The only lasting solution MUST BE to soundly reject them all.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.7 / 5 (24) Nov 29, 2012
How quickly do you think thid could develop into something dangerous?
http://en.wikiped...iverfull

-50 years? How soon before regions in this country are full to overflowing and fanatics emerge to begin burning mosques like good xian soldiers?
Noumenon
3.1 / 5 (25) Nov 29, 2012
We're talking about the present. The above is about Islamists now.

Why do you use this as an opportunity to attack other religions, when the present discussion is about muslims? Pointing to speculative non-existent behavior or past history, does not make radical Islamist less savage.

The more you generalize, the less you say.
ryggesogn2
2.6 / 5 (23) Nov 29, 2012
Anyone noticed how the atheist/socialists and the Muslims all seem to have have the same targets: Jews, individual liberty and free markets. Coincidence?
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (27) Nov 29, 2012
talking about the present
The present you are talking about began in 1979 when khomeini took over and present-day islamism emerged.
Why do you use this as an opportunity to attack other religions, when the present discussion is about muslims? Pointing to speculative non-existent behavior or past history, does not make radical Islamist less savage.
Correction: it doesnt make the radical religionist less savage. You are all offering solutions here which are invariably 'reason' or war or 'my religion is better than yours'. It is obvious to me and many others that religion itself is the problem.

Religion inevitably produces fanatics. You cant address islamism as something separate from the thing which drives kony or jim jones or mcvey or breivik to do the same things they feel they have to do in the name of GOD. The only enduring solution to 'isnt islamism AWFUL?' is to conclude that religion itself is awful, and to denounce it in ALL ITS MANY FORMS.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.7 / 5 (23) Nov 29, 2012
As usual hitchens says it best
http://www.youtub...pp_video

-Religious Wunschtraume poisons society.
Noumenon
2.7 / 5 (20) Nov 29, 2012
It is obvious to me and many others that religion itself is the problem.


This is factually incorrect. The vast majority of humanity hold some religion or other. It is only specific identifiable religious groups that are violent as a result, in present times.

You can generalize one step further. From your perspective religion is equivalent to ignorance. Do you propose to Ban ignorance?
Noumenon
2.5 / 5 (19) Nov 29, 2012
You cant address islamism as something separate from the thing which drives kony or jim jones or mcvey or breivik to do the same things they feel they have to do in the name of GOD.


First, I reject the notion that religion drove any of those crazies.

In any case, you're making an absurd equivalency between individual nut-bags, and radical Muslims. There are nut-bags amongst people who wear yellow hats too,.... but I'm not worried about people who wear yellow hats.

There is NO general identifiable group of Christians who make a concerted effort to coerce others through violence.
kochevnik
1.8 / 5 (10) Nov 29, 2012
Christians have killed over a billion during their reign of terror
There is NO general identifiable group of Christians who make a concerted effort to coerce others through violence.
That coming from someone who advocated the killing of a million Iraqis and wants to start WWIII with Iran and yet claims to not be an xtian zealot

Noumenon
2.9 / 5 (21) Nov 29, 2012
Christians have killed over a billion during their reign of terror


A billion, really? Is that a reasonable thing to say? Christians didn't seem to make the list of worst genocides in history.
Noumenon
2.9 / 5 (21) Nov 29, 2012
,... notice who makes that list kockevnik?,.. communists and socialists, .. those who want to Control Humanity and to Plan and Engineer Society,.. those who banned religion,.. those against freedom.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.7 / 5 (26) Nov 29, 2012
This is factually incorrect. The vast majority of humanity hold some religion or other. It is only specific identifiable religious groups that are violent as a result, in present times.
So what? They have ALL been unspeakably violent at one time or another. Factions of every one of them are being unspeakably violent RIGHT NOW, somewhere in the world. And this violence is codified in their books, and is specifically endorsed by their gods in these books.
You can generalize one step further. From your perspective religion is equivalent to ignorance. Do you propose to Ban ignorance?
Ignorance doesnt have a handbook.
First, I reject the notion that religion drove any of those crazies.
Well it did by their own admission. And so many others. Does love of allah drive a woman frustrated with her own life of forced marriage and no choices to blow herself up in a marketplace?
kochevnik
1.7 / 5 (13) Nov 29, 2012
,... notice who makes that list kockevnik?,.. communists and socialists, .. those who want to Control Humanity and to Plan and Engineer Society,.. those who banned religion,.. those against freedom.
Xtians are the inventors of communism. Time to get back to your roots Noumenon

The most publicized attacks are proven to be Israeli Mossad. Israeli SOF impersonators infiltrate Muslum groups and incite violence in their name to score publicity points for Israel while spilling blood of innocents. There is nothing the zionist won't do to subvert other groups. Even going so far as murdering 3000 Americans on 9/11

CNN's Piers Morgan is an example of how zionists exploit mythology, the Holocaust, 9/11 to legitimize fascist aggression. If soldiers are dying of suicide more than enemy fire that is progress, yet Morgan says that is an insult. Not enough blood spilled for Israel and NWO: http://www.youtub...tw#t=52s
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (26) Nov 29, 2012
A billion, really? Is that a reasonable thing to say? Christians didn't seem to make the list of worst genocides in history.
If there had been as many cathars in france as there were jews in eastern europe, then the inquisition would have killed JUST AS MANY as the nazis did.

Its funny how you argue that religion-fueled atrocity is only a little less thorough than non-religion fueled atrocity. God-based systems with perfect morals should be able to avoid violence altogether, dont you think? Their body count seems to be tied more to available technology and raw feedstock rather than lack of enthusiasm or moral restraint, yes?

The knights hospitaller had just as lucrative a slave concession in moslems in the mediterranean, as the moslems did in xians.
individual nut-bags, and radical Muslims.
No, mainstream moslems who compose the vast majority would say that islamists are nut-bags. They are rioting against hardliners right now in egypt.

The KKK was a xian organization.
Athenian
4.2 / 5 (5) Nov 29, 2012
@TheGhostofOtto1923 ('is to conclude that religion itself is awful, and to denounce it in ALL ITS MANY FORMS.')

Not really. Many people (including a fairly significant number of highly-educated ones) seem to have some innate need for spiritual belief (perhaps due to the inherent randomness and uncertainty present in nature?). As long as they hold those beliefs to themselves, practice whatever faith tradition they want to practice peacefully, i.e. without harming, coercing or invading other people and other faiths, faith can in fact be a positively modulating force in the society.

There are about 1 million (est.) atheists in the world (not counting agnostics, where I'd place my personal views), and 1.5 or so Muslims. The other 4.5 billion believers and agnostics are by and large living peaceful enough lives, and most of the religious strife in the areas they inhabit can usually be traced to Islamists and Islamic Jihad.

The LRA is a rogue terrorist group that doesn't get support from
Athenian
3.7 / 5 (3) Nov 29, 2012
contd from my preceding comment: the LRA doesn't get support from Christian majority countries. In fact, the US and others are actively working to defeat them; the LRA disarmament passed unanimously in the US congress in 2010, i.e. with complete support from Republicans (who are usually considered pro-Christian, and whom, I am quite sure, you're not a fan of :))
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.6 / 5 (23) Nov 29, 2012
seem to have some innate need for spiritual belief (perhaps due to the inherent randomness and uncertainty present in nature?)
Perhaps because they too want to live forever and receive special favors for themselves and their families?
As long as they hold those beliefs to themselves...faith can in fact be a positively modulating force in the society.
-And why would you conclude this? Because superstitionists might be a little more moral or compassionate than the baseline human? Morality is innate. We were selected for it.
by and large living peaceful enough lives, and most of the religious strife in the areas they inhabit can usually be traced to Islamists and Islamic Jihad.
NOW. AT PRESENT. Why do I need to keep repeating this??

Benign believers lend radicals legitimacy. BOTH claim their books are the word of god. And all their books tell them to kill unbelievers. Gods word is gods word. Both sides only disagree on methodology. And there is NOTHING separating them.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.7 / 5 (23) Nov 29, 2012
the LRA doesn't get support from Christian majority countries. In fact, the US and others are actively working to defeat them
So what? They DO get ideological support from the millions of religionists who agree with them that a god who condones, who DEMANDS violence, does indeed exist.

Moslem countries like yemen and pakistan are committed to eradicating al quaida. The taiping rebels fought against their chinese rulers and 20 M died. You make no valid point.
by and large living peaceful enough lives
Watch the hitchens clips I posted for convincing arguments on why we do not need religion culturally in order to thrive. Watch other hitchens and dawkins and harris and maher et al clips on youtube. Educate yourself.
Athenian
3.4 / 5 (5) Nov 29, 2012
Moslem countries like yemen and pakistan are committed to eradicating al quaida.'

Thanks for the laugh about Pakistan, a grotesque example of state sponsorship of terrorism (as well as one of the most vivid examples of how Islam can literally destroy existing cultures), being committed to "eradicating al quaida." Ha ha ha.

Why are you toiling so hard to make excuses for what is obviously a present and harmful scourge:
http://www.therel...#Attacks
on the human society?

From your atheist pronouncements, you're apparently not a Muslim yourself. So, what really is your driving force for aiding and abetting Islamicd Jihad? Are you indirectly crusading against Christianity (or political manifestations thereof), due to some alternate reason (such the Church opposing LGBT rights), and are defending Islam and Jihad as a way to undermine Christianity?
kochevnik
2.5 / 5 (8) Nov 29, 2012
,... notice who makes that list kockevnik?,.. communists and socialists, .. those who want to Control Humanity and to Plan and Engineer Society,.. those who banned religion,.. those against freedom.
Stalin was educated by jesuit catholics. He is one of your guys.
Noumenon
2.9 / 5 (17) Nov 29, 2012
,... notice who makes that list kockevnik?,.. communists and socialists, .. those who want to Control Humanity and to Plan and Engineer Society,.. those who banned religion,.. those against freedom.
Stalin was educated by jesuit catholics. He is one of your guys.


One of my guys? I'm not a believer in god, I'm a supporter of freedom of thought. Obviously your post is irrelevant non-sense.

"The Soviet Union was the first state to have, as an ideological objective, the elimination of religion."
kochevnik
1 / 5 (7) Nov 29, 2012
Stalin was educated by jesuit catholics. He is one of your guys.

One of my guys? I'm not a believer in god, I'm a supporter of freedom of thought. Obviously your post is irrelevant non-sense.

"The Soviet Union was the first state to have, as an ideological objective, the elimination of religion."

Stalin and Lenin were required to dispell orthodox christianity
and instigate Jewish bolshevism as part of the zionist agent to rape and rob the Soviet states and transfer the wealth to the zionist banksters. Indeed only two Americans could land in Moscow freely during the cold war. Both of them zionist oligarchs. Communism as instigated worldwide is merely zionist mercantilism unleashed to rap and rob national resources.

Upon the demise of Trotskyism Stalin normalized relations with the Orthodox Church.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (18) Nov 29, 2012
Thanks for the laugh about Pakistan, a grotesque example of state sponsorship of terrorism (as well as one of the most vivid examples of how Islam can literally destroy existing cultures), being committed to "eradicating al quaida." Ha ha ha
Oh Im sorry didnt I say ostensibly? Al quaida bleeds off scores of young hotheads and sends them westward into the guns of coilition forces. It is serving both the west and pakistan very well. You will note no arab spring in islamabad.
Why are you toiling so hard to make excuses for what is obviously a present and harmful scourge
I want it to end as well. You want to throw another religion at it? One of the GOOD ones perhaps?

It will not stop FOR GOOD until we address the source of the problem, which is the toleration of superstition in any and all forms.
From your atheist pronouncements, you're apparently not a Muslim yourself.
HEEHEEE now its my turn to laugh. The term is ANTIRELIGIONIST.
freethinking
2.4 / 5 (17) Nov 29, 2012
The reason Progressives try to minimize Muslim terror is because Progressives always defend their own.

Progressives and Muslim Terrorists share the same goals and hatreds.
They hate Israel, hate Christians, hate freedom, hate free speech.

Progressives and Muslim Terrorists share the same methods. They lie, they distort, they blame the victims, they bully.



TheGhostofOtto1923
2.6 / 5 (22) Nov 29, 2012
One of my guys? I'm not a believer in god, I'm a supporter of freedom of thought.
Yeah right.

"I have therefore found it necessary to deny knowledge, in order to make room for faith." kant
So, what really is your driving force for aiding and abetting Islamicd Jihad?
So BECAUSE I identify xians and zionists with something else equally as dangerous, this means that i am somehow favoring it? Its pretty obvious you are a godlover who thinks his particular flavor is the one god prefers. Right?

Moslems are busy convincing others of this very thing. I think that together you will destroy this world unless people like me oppose ALL of you. Do I make myself clear?
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.6 / 5 (22) Nov 29, 2012
Hey why dont you try another movie?
http://www.youtub...TVUulGwc

"The plain fact is, religion must die for mankind to live." -maher
VendicarD
4.5 / 5 (4) Nov 29, 2012
Carl Marx put it very well...

"Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." -
Karl Marx, Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right
VendicarD
3 / 5 (2) Nov 29, 2012
ryggesogn2
2.9 / 5 (15) Nov 29, 2012
Lenin:
"We demand that religion be held a private affair so far as the state is concerned. But by no means can we consider religion a private affair so far as our Party is concerned. Religion must be of no concern to the state, and religious societies must have no connection with governmental authority. Everyone must be absolutely free to profess any religion he pleases, or no religion whatever, i.e., to be an atheist, which every socialist is, as a rule. "
http://www.marxis...c/03.htm

VendicarD
2.3 / 5 (3) Nov 29, 2012
RyggTard shows how Lenin's views were very much in keeping with those of America's founding fathers.
kochevnik
1.5 / 5 (8) Nov 29, 2012
At the top of the USA food chain are cold blooded killers like the Bush clan leaving bodies in their midst, and on the low end of the chains are retard robots like ryggie and freetard who vomit verbal nuggets to keep the echo chamber filled with noise.

Beautiful system you yanks have.
la7dfa
1 / 5 (2) Nov 29, 2012
I do not understand why atheists has to be linked to communism or any other non religious "-ism".
Thats really much worse than giving christians the blame for all muslim and jewish killings. After all you worship the very same "God".
Anyway you cannot argue with religions people. They do not listen to reason, but instead go to wars on the other side of the globe. Just like in their past crusades against those who happen to read the wrong books.

The Stoneage is not over yet. Cavemen all kneel and worship someone completely invisible and less real than vapour. But how can you really convice someone without killing them in the attempt? ;)
kochevnik
1.4 / 5 (8) Nov 30, 2012
I do not understand why atheists has to be linked to communism or any other non religious "-ism".
Christopaths invented communism. They're just passing the blame onto those who had nothing to do with their genocide and bootlicking. Standard cult behavior from a mob of irrationals.

All three are Abrahamic religions. I think Jews are a cut above though, being constant targets of the two pathological intolerants. They need to avoid the yoke of zionism which only serves to make them targets of fanatics. Rothschilds and Spanish Rockefellers are no messiahs, but yet another group of bloodsucking parasites out for their own interests.
la7dfa
2 / 5 (4) Nov 30, 2012
Hey why dont you try another movie?
http://www.youtub...TVUulGwc

"The plain fact is, religion must die for mankind to live." -maher

This movie should be seen and discussed by all rational human beings. I guess it wont impact much on the crazy worshippers though. After all, if eternal bliss is coming, why worry? ;)
rwinners
1 / 5 (3) Nov 30, 2012
Negative about muslims? Why, for goodness sake?
(long diatribe about human beings who take the word of some shithead wearing a shithat as gods word).
How does one defeat criminal stupidity?
Argiod
2.5 / 5 (11) Nov 30, 2012
If you are a muslim, you are Muslim because you believe in the Koran.
There is just ONE Koran; which teaches the following:

9:5 "....Kill those who join other gods with Allah wherever you find them; besiege them, seize them, lay in wait for them with every kind of ambush...."

47:4 "When you encounter the unbelievers, strike off their heads, until ye have made a great slaughter among them...."

9:29 "....Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in Allah, or in the Last Day, and who forbid not what Allah and His Apostle have forbidden....until they pay tribute..."

8:39 "Say to the infidels: If they desist, what is now past shall be forgiven them; but if they return, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it Allah's."

9:3 "Proclaim a grievious penalty to those who reject faith."
Athenian
3.9 / 5 (7) Nov 30, 2012
@TGOtto1923,

Radical/political Islam (and pretty much any implementation of Islam that faithfully adheres to what's inside Islamic texts, i.e. what Mohammad practiced preached) are the worst enemies of anything any progressive/liberal considers progressive/liberal. Needless to say, brutality of Islam towards gays is simply unmatched.

You're intelligent enough to know these, and that makes your aiding and abetting of Islamic Jihad all the more intriguing and disturbing.

Since you quoted Hitchens... he was honest about Islam and minced no words in skewering it (and in exposing the left's coddling of Jihad):

'The Taliban and its surrogates are not content to immiserate their own societies in beggary and serfdom. They are condemned, and they deludedly believe that they are commanded, to spread the contagion and to visit hell upon the unrighteous.'

-- Of Sin, the Left & Islamic Fascism, by Christopher Hitchens, October, 2001
http://www.thenat...-fascism
ShotmanMaslo
1.6 / 5 (5) Nov 30, 2012
No, mainstream moslems who compose the vast majority would say that islamists are nut-bags. They are rioting against hardliners right now in egypt.


Thats not true, Islamists often enjoy great support among middle eastern muslims, usualy majority supports the hardliners. They are rioting against corrupt western-backed governments. Arab spring is not anti-islamist at all. You think that in Egypt, where more than 80 % of population want to kill apostates and adulterers, they consider the Islamists a problem? No, they consider them a solution.
kochevnik
1.8 / 5 (5) Nov 30, 2012
Thats not true, Islamists often enjoy great support among middle eastern muslims, usualy majority supports the hardliners.
My Muslum friends in Moscow wanted to kill the Chechen child molesters like the ones that murdered 300 schoolchildren in Beslan. They are an insult to all people. So much for your fucking theories, you retard.
ShotmanMaslo
2 / 5 (4) Nov 30, 2012
Thats not true, Islamists often enjoy great support among middle eastern muslims, usualy majority supports the hardliners.
My Muslum friends in Moscow wanted to kill the Chechen child molesters like the ones that murdered 300 schoolchildren in Beslan. They are an insult to all people. So much for your fucking theories, you retard.


You want to judge the feelings of over a billion strong diverse religion by your pathetic anecdotal evidence? lol.. Does not contradict anything I wrote.
ValeriaT
1.7 / 5 (6) Nov 30, 2012
The Muslims were always hostile toward Western society and it has no meaning to cover it. The western society was long time defensive against it - we can see the walls about all large cities in the medieval period. The technological progress of the 19th based on fossil fuels has thrown the Muslims into defensive, but now the fossil fuels are depleted and many of the remaining sources are property of Muslim countries. So that the Muslims are gaining their power again. The only peaceful solution is to adopt cold fusion fast and become independent on the oil of Arabians (and Russians and Venezuelans). Or we will face the serious geopolitical conflict, in which the Russia and China will play a role of the USA in the WWW II.
ryggesogn2
2.2 / 5 (17) Nov 30, 2012
If you are a muslim, you are Muslim because you believe in the Koran.

One can also be a Muslim because he was born a Muslim. There is no choice. By Muslim law, because Obama's father was Muslim, Obama must be Muslim.
BTW, Muslims consider everyone to be Muslim, but some just don't know it yet.
Islam means submission. No wonder the socialists like Islam so much.
Noumenon
2.4 / 5 (14) Nov 30, 2012
One of my guys? I'm not a believer in god, I'm a supporter of freedom of thought.
Yeah right. "I have therefore found it necessary to deny knowledge, in order to make room for faith." kant


Just because I've studied Kant, doesn't mean I accept his faith. In fact as I've told you multiple times, I accept his rejection of metaphysics as a valid source of knowledge,.... so in actuality you agree with me,... you're just too dense to understand this.
ValeriaT
1 / 5 (3) Nov 30, 2012
IMO the religion is an evolutionary trait, which helds people of the same religion together. Large group of people can always defeat a smaller ones no matter, how technologically advantageous they are - so its evolutionary advantageous to adopt some form of unifying religion for technologically less developed nations. Such a religion becomes a natural enemy of technologically progressive countries (if you're technologically advantage, you don't need any religion for to maintain your superiority). IMO the relation of Muslims to the rest of world just a consequence of rather trivial synergies, which can be modeled with PC computers.
ryggesogn2
2.8 / 5 (13) Nov 30, 2012
", as Albert Einstein said, in a universe as incomprehensibly vast as our own:

"The human mind, no matter how highly trained, cannot grasp the universe. We are in the position of a little child, entering a huge library whose walls are covered to the ceiling with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written those books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books, a mysterious order, which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of the human mind, even the greatest and most cultured, toward God. We see a universe marvelously arranged, obeying certain laws, but we understand the laws only dimly."
http://www.realcl...413.html
kochevnik
1 / 5 (6) Nov 30, 2012
One can also be a Libtard because he was born a Libtard . There is no choice. By Libtard law, because Ryggies's father was Libtard, Ryggie must be Libtard.
BTW, Libtards consider everyone to be Libtard, but some just don't get it yet.
Libtardation means submission. No wonder the banksters like Libtards so much.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (21) Nov 30, 2012
There is just ONE Koran; which teaches the following
-All holy books say these same things. You think the quran is any worse because it repeats them more times? As I say religions have evolved. The quran include more of the effective stuff and less of the superfluous. It has been made more EFFICIENT.
Needless to say, brutality of Islam towards gays is simply unmatched
13"And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." lev20

Listen. Godlover. I dispise all you religionist hypocrites who think their brand of superstition is the only good one. You are ALL the same. Your books ALL say the same things. Your gods ALL promise exactly the same things in return for EXACTLY the same sorts of immoral acts against your enemies. This enables the IRA for instance to kill protestant children or serb orthos to kill bosnian moslems.
kochevnik
2.3 / 5 (6) Nov 30, 2012
You want to judge the feelings of over a billion strong diverse religion by your pathetic anecdotal evidence? lol.. Does not contradict anything I wrote.
Russia is 24% Musliums. Hardly anecdotal. Rather there is a general understanding that intolerance itself is the enemy. We also have Jews but they're not the rabid zionist kind coercing Russia into wars to benefit Israel. Overall religion is something more of one's private life and not a showpiece to be paraded around in public. Cultured people understand that.
kochevnik
2 / 5 (4) Nov 30, 2012
serb orthos to kill bosnian moslems.
You got that backwards.
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (12) Nov 30, 2012
koch had to have been raised is a communist newspeak school when LIBERTY can somehow be construed to mean 'submission'.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (16) Nov 30, 2012
I accept his rejection of metaphysics as a valid source of knowledge,....
There. Why didnt you just repeat this in the last thread instead of playing games?
so in actuality you agree with me,... you're just too dense to understand this.
No youre too dense to understand that this means the metaphysical doesnt exist. An empty fantasy.
Since you quoted Hitchens... he was honest about Islam and minced no words in skewering it
YOU BET. And how did you miss where his whole POINT was to equate it to ALL religion, and to condemn ALL of it? For he was a consummate antireligionist.

You missed it because you are a religionist, and you suffer under the common delusion that god simply adores the way you pray.
http://www.youtub...-TvoEXKw
-Watch both parts-

'If youre not with me youre against me.' A particularly FOUL religionist message.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (18) Nov 30, 2012
So, what really is your driving force for aiding and abetting Islamicd Jihad?
Just to be clear: xians, jews, hindus, sikh, buddhists and all the rest aid and abet extremists by agreeing with them that a god worth killing and dying for does exist.

If you truly want murder and misery over the cause of god to stop, then you will acknowledge your part in perpetuating the fantasies which give rise to it; and you will RENOUNCE them.

This is the only morally acceptable response to islamic jihad.
kochevnik
2.3 / 5 (6) Nov 30, 2012
koch had to have been raised is a communist newspeak school when LIBERTY can somehow be construed to mean 'submission'.
LOL this from a pathological hoarder who flouts greed as 'LIBERTY'
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.9 / 5 (17) Nov 30, 2012
serb orthos to kill bosnian moslems.
You got that backwards.
"...the peace negotiations between the Orthodox [Christian] Serbs, the Catholic Croats and the Muslim Bosnians had collapsed again. And there is no doubt that the religions that are so involved here had neglected in the period of more than forty years since the Second World War to engage in mourning, honestly confess the crimes which had been committed by all sides in the course of the centuries, and ask one another for mutual forgiveness...."

-And the only that that can begin to happen is for all to surrender the beliefs which keep them apart.
ryggesogn2
2.3 / 5 (12) Nov 30, 2012
koch had to have been raised is a communist newspeak school when LIBERTY can somehow be construed to mean 'submission'.
LOL this from a pathological hoarder who flouts greed as 'LIBERTY'

Koch, please seen me all your money and property since you don't seem to want it.
And I am sure you can find some slave master who will be glad to take your liberty, too.
kochevnik
1.8 / 5 (5) Nov 30, 2012
koch had to have been raised is a communist newspeak school when LIBERTY can somehow be construed to mean 'submission'.
LOL this from a pathological hoarder who flouts greed as 'LIBERTY'

Koch, please seen me all your money and property since you don't seem to want it.
And I am sure you can find some slave master who will be glad to take your liberty, too.
No I will employ my funds where the multiplier effect is greatest, creating a tenfold increase in economic prosperity. In contrast your multiplier effect is zero, if not negative since you impose a contracting, deflationary pressure on the economy by hoarding.
Athenian
4.2 / 5 (5) Nov 30, 2012
Otto, at this point you're driveling and making bogus accusations and assertions (eg, I know fully well that Hitchens was no fan of any religion, but your drivel above presumed otherwise.)

You have a right to believe or not to believe in any idea or proposition, provided that you're not going to shove your belief down others' throats. That "freedom as long as you respect others' freedom" maxim applies to both religious belief and non-belief.

In any case, another atheist, Pat Condell, tells it like it is about Islam in this excellent video:
http://www.youtub...6FpabknY
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.9 / 5 (19) Nov 30, 2012
at this point you're driveling and making bogus accusations and assertions (eg, I know fully well that Hitchens was no fan of any religion, but your drivel above presumed otherwise.)
And you have no right to imply that hitchens regarded any one religion as being worse or better than any other. He most obviously took great pains to demonstrate that they were all odorous, all equally dangerous, all indistinguishable in their immorality and potential for violence.
provided that you're not going to shove your belief down others' throats.
No religion refrains from this. Any religion, when it attains sufficient power, will force itself on others, because their books specifically instruct religionists to do so. History convinces us of this no matter what patient and passive (at the moment) believers declare.

Heaven cannot come to earth unless everybody buys in. Or everybody left standing does, at any rate. Fill up the earth with more of us and fewer of THEM, is implicit.
ryggesogn2
2.6 / 5 (10) Dec 01, 2012
No I will employ my funds where the multiplier effect is greatest,

YOUR funds? Selfish ba$tard!

If true, then you cannot support ANY socialism as it destroys wealth and economic growth. It's well documented around the world.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (18) Dec 01, 2012
This is how religions resolve their mutual differences
http://www.youtub...XpLOYfog
obama_socks
1.3 / 5 (8) Dec 02, 2012
Intolerance in America is alive and well. Among atheists, there is a particular kind of "hate" group who is extremely intolerant of religions as a whole, no matter how peaceful adherents and believers in those religions are…they are lumped all together with bad and dangerous people who adhere to radical islam which is also a religion of intolerance, whether radical or not. This intolerant atheist group is offended by the belief in God and feels no compassion for other people and their woes unless they remove religion from their lives. Most often, such atheists believe in the religion of Socialism or Communism as an alternative to belief in a Deity. Those -isms are also a religious belief system but is usually not recognized as such by atheists due to these atheists being so much more tolerant of systems that are able to control, command and bend the will of the people to the will of their masters, particularly big government.
kochevnik
1 / 5 (5) Dec 02, 2012
atheists believe in the religion of Socialism or Communism as an alternative to belief in a Deity.
Why so much hate for Karl Marx? Your Jesus was a socialist and you xtians invented communism in Paraguay.
obama_socks
1.2 / 5 (9) Dec 02, 2012
Government has taken the place of religions in places like Europe, and intolerant atheists are working toward bringing the same displacement of religion to America. They cannot rest until they eliminate belief in God from the Earth.

A strong belief in a caring and forgiving God is necessary for most humans, and God is also seen as a protector and ally against the dangers and evils of the world we live in.
Atheists wish to deprive people of that relative feeling of comfort, safety and love that belief in God provides. And now they attack religious traditions and symbolism through courts of law and through the media,

obama_socks
1.3 / 5 (8) Dec 02, 2012
These intolerant atheists wish to bend the people to THEIR will to alleviate their obvious disgruntlement and dissatisfaction with their own coming mortality.
It is quite evident that these atheists are afraid of death and cannot abide the fact that there are people who have an understanding that death is not the end of one's existence…but the beginning of a new one. This deeply wounds these atheists because their belief is based solely on the physical and anything beyond that is amusing, if not angering and hateful to them.

Theghostofotto1923 (our favorite titi monkey) is one of these intolerant atheists whose neuroses demands a consistent attack on peaceful Christians, Jews and Muslims, Hindus, etc., while being more tolerant of Al Quaida and Hamas, et al because they kill other believers in God, and that makes them the good guys.

Intolerance is something that most people agree is bad...such as racism, bigotry. But the bigotry of intolerant atheists is somehow permissible. Why?
obama_socks
1 / 5 (5) Dec 02, 2012
atheists believe in the religion of Socialism or Communism as an alternative to belief in a Deity.
Why so much hate for Karl Marx? Your Jesus was a socialist and you xtians invented communism in Paraguay.
-kochevnik

Nobody hates Karl Marx. I certainly don't. He had a certain philosophy and left it to others to put his ideas into effect. Of course, both Socialism and Communism are a form of slavery to the state, where the state rules and has power over the people. Whereas, in a democracy, it is the people who have the power, and the state (government) is the slave...a paid slave.

Jesus/Yeshua/Joshua was not a Communist. When he ordered the money changers out of the temple, he wasn't trying to abolish mercantilism and commerce. He drove them out because they were in a temple...a holy place. He knew the value of money and what it could buy. Jesus' father was a carpenter and carpenters get paid for their work.

Communists in Paraguay? What? I thought they were NAZIs.
kochevnik
1 / 5 (4) Dec 02, 2012
Jesus/Yeshua/Joshua was not a Communist. When he ordered the money changers out of the temple, he wasn't trying to abolish mercantilism and commerce. He drove them out because they were in a temple...a holy place. He knew the value of money and what it could buy. Jesus' father was a carpenter and carpenters get paid for their work.
I wrote the fairy tale Jesus was a socialist, not a communist. Moneychangers aren't allowed in his temple? He seems to have issues with them extending beyond the temple doors. Did you know we had carpenters in the Soviet Union? Working with wood doesn't make you an adamant capitalist.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (16) Dec 02, 2012
Jesus/Yeshua/Joshua was not a Communist. When he ordered the money changers out of the temple, he wasn't trying to abolish mercantilism and commerce. He drove them out because they were in a temple...a holy place. He knew the value of money and what it could buy. Jesus' father was a carpenter and carpenters get paid for their work.
I wrote the fairy tale Jesus was a socialist, not a communist. Moneychangers aren't allowed in his temple? He seems to have issues with them extending beyond the temple doors. Did you know we had carpenters in the Soviet Union? Working with wood doesn't make you an adamant capitalist.
Koch why do you engage with that lying flooding imbecile? You are trying to argue with a billboard.

For the record Jesus was a communist
http://en.wikiped...ommunism

For the record lying and bearing false witness and great deluges of smelly shit are all sins in the eyes of most gods.
Lurker2358
2.3 / 5 (6) Dec 02, 2012
Decency has little to do with this, decent people will fear and hate someone if they are misinformed.


Nobody is misinformed.

Almost every international terror organization (except the IRA and a few "Lonewolfs",) Is founded upon Islamic religion.

That should tell you something.

Islam = Terrorism = Evil.

We need more negative messages about Islam in the media, then the amount of TRUTH in the media would be much higher by default.
ryggesogn2
2.6 / 5 (15) Dec 02, 2012
Jesus NEVER advocated or supported govt control of property, the central tenet of communism.
His most devout followers in the 1600s thought communism was what God wanted too, but discovered they would all die if they did follow communism. They were known as Pilgrims.
They did discover that God wants his followers to work and earn their keep and to voluntarily share, not be coerced by any govt into 'sharing'.
God is most concerned about the individual's relationship with God, not the individual's relationship with the state.
1 Samuel 8:10-20 indicates what God thought of govt.

Communists in Paraguay? What? I thought they were NAZIs.

Socialists = communists = Fasists = NAZIs='progressives'. All have the same goal, state control over the individual.
FrankHerbert
2 / 5 (8) Dec 02, 2012
"Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's."

"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to entire the kingdom of God."

Socialists = communists = Fasists = NAZIs='progressives'. All have the same goal, state control over the individual.

To everyone except Swenson (ryggesogn2):
This is an extreme example of otherization. This jerk's worldview has been distilled entirely into two groups: us and them. His tiny diseased mind cannot handle any more nuance than that. This is a mental disorder. Hopefully gene therapy can fix this someday. Until then...

Against the wall!
Lurker2358
3 / 5 (4) Dec 02, 2012
Jesus NEVER advocated or supported govt control of property, the central tenet of communism.


No, that isn't the central tenet.

The central tenet is that all people are equal and work for the good of one another, not their own selfish goals.

That's very much in line with Jesus' teachings.

Communism is not evil. It's what you do with it that makes it good or evil, just like democracy. If you give democracy to Muslims nothing changes, they're still just as evil.

God is most concerned about the individual's relationship with God, not the individual's relationship with the state.
1 Samuel 8:10-20 indicates what God thought of govt.


The theocratic anarchy failed because it was impractical. The book of Samuel is one of the worst sources you could cite as it's filled with genocide.

Socialists = communists = Fasists = NAZIs='progressives'. All have the same goal, state control over the individual.

Wrong on so many levels. Just too ignorant to be taught anything.
Lurker2358
1.8 / 5 (5) Dec 02, 2012
1 Samuel 8:10-20 indicates what God thought of govt.


What you fail to mention is that everyone had to follow some prophet, and trust that he was in fact speaking for God, regardless of his claims (without any personal proof and no proof is ever offered in any part of the text except alleged miraculous punishments which come when it's already too late to know the difference. There is no way any person or character in the text could have known if and when Samuel or any other "prophet" in the text was telling the truth, until it's too late to matter.

Would you prefer THAT government? Because that's what it was, a GOVERNMENT which dictated every individual thought and aspect of your life to you. Supposedly Saul was punished with Demon Possession because he offered not the wrong sacrifice, nor sacrifice to the wrong god, but because he offered a sacrifice to "God" a day before than the "prophet" instructed!

Have you ever read this book and thought about it's implications objective
Lurker2358
1 / 5 (4) Dec 02, 2012
This is why I don't believe in scripture Inspiration or Infallibility.

The texts are so old any number of twisted people could have doctored any of it to say whatever they wanted it to say. The oldest manuscripts ever found are a thousand years AFTER the original Book of Samuel was supposedly written, so nobody knows what the real book was, if it ever existed, because it doesn't exist now.

And even if you found the original, there is no conceivable test for inspiration or infallibility, aside from God himself appearing and dictating it to everyone simultaneously.

I doubt any of the "Torah" books or Joshua or Judges are authentic. They were most likely invented by the earliest Pharisee sects, because the extremism and hypocrisy suits that sect most.

Their own history claims they were exiled to Babylon and then Iran for 490 years.

What do you think happened to any "real" history of whatever nation they actually came from?

It was destroyed in genocidal wars both within and without.
ryggesogn2
2.7 / 5 (14) Dec 02, 2012
Communism is not evil.

Of course it because it destroys the individual.
The central tenet is that all people are equal and work for the good of one another, not their own selfish goals.


All have equal opportunity under God. All from the rich to the poor, from Jew to Gentile have equal opportunity for salvation and all that is required is faith. Salvation cannot be earned by praying five times a day or eating fish on Friday. Salvation cannot be earned, it is a gift from God by His grace. It's an individual relationship with God.
So what is the 'good' for one another? Treating people like livestock, giving them food and shelter with no expectations they should work and earn for themselves and develop their own personal relationship with God?
Many homeless who live on the street do so by their choice. Drugs and alcohol are not allowed in charity shelters so they choose drugs and alcohol. Do Christians hold them against their will for their own good or respect them?
ryggesogn2
2.7 / 5 (12) Dec 02, 2012
This is an extreme example of otherization.

Truth hurts Frankie?
So Frankie, do YOU support the individual's right to property and the proper role of the govt is to protect that right?
It didn't think so.
So whether you support the NAZI style of socialism (which you seem to given by your support of violence) or any other, the substance is the same: state control of the individual. Only the style is different.
Noumenon
2.7 / 5 (17) Dec 02, 2012
The central tenet is that all people are equal and work for the good of one another, not their own selfish goals. That's very much in line with Jesus' teachings. Communism is not evil.l


Jesus did not advocate a form of government, nor a political ideology, therefore it is pointless unfounded non-sense to suggest Jesus was a communist. His philosophy was one of personal morality in helping others, personal responsibility, and personal accountability.

Communism Forces all people to be equal and Forces people to work for the good of the State, counter to their nature. To force men to be equal is entirely different than to treat them as if they were. Equal rights does not equate to equal results or equal natures.

Jesus would have recognized that if one is Forced to work for the "good of one another", it is an artificial morality, and thus not worthy. He would have required personal liberty and free will in order to be consistent with his philosophy.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.9 / 5 (19) Dec 02, 2012
Nobody is misinformed.
Well you are because youd rather make stuff up than look stuff up.
http://en.wikiped...izations
Almost every international terror organization (except the IRA and a few "Lonewolfs",) Is founded upon Islamic religion.
This would be true if 1) you left out the word Islamic and 2) you considered communism as a religion, which it is.
That should tell you something.
Yeah that you consider your imagination a valid source of facts. We have demonstrated many times that it is not. It only feels that way doesn't it?
Jesus NEVER advocated or supported govt control of property, the central tenet of communism.
SURE he did. First off he referred to the kingdom of heaven. He wanted you to turn your will and your life over to his care, as would any king. But he did say to render unto Caesars what is Caesars, which would be govt maintenance of infrarsructure.

TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (16) Dec 02, 2012
-Sorry frank I missed your post. Jesus (and Caesar and Constantine and muhammud et al) knew that since god was in reality powerless here on earth, shekinah would require large tax-funded standing armies in order to spread the Good Word.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.9 / 5 (17) Dec 02, 2012
it is wrong to imply equivalency wrt violence amongst religions, when the existing facts plainly demonstrate otherwise.
It is wrong to think that identical books with the same caustic messages should affect any one people differently than any other. It is WRONG to focus on just this generation instead of the abominable record of ALL religion, in every generation, to inspire violence.

Where were Islamic terrorists throughout all the centuries when state-sponsored Xian terrorism was extincting whole cultures? Where were islamists when German Catholics and Protestants were burning each other in their churches? The 30 Years War killed 1/3 the population of Germany. Since then xians have not removed those portions of their books which made this horror possible. What makes you think this couldn't happen again?

But of course it HAS happened since, and is happening right now. Martyrs are gladly presenting themselves for killing by fanatics throughout the world.
ryggesogn2
2.6 / 5 (10) Dec 02, 2012
Jesus would have recognized that if one is Forced to work for the "good of one another", it is an artificial morality,


"The way in which we approach the problem of poverty is a particularly important thing to Father Sirico: "We do not treat poor people as animals, merely in need of shelter, water, and food. We treat them as being created imago dei, and not pawns in a political agenda. We aspire for the poor to be rich, not merely materially, but in the deepest parts of their soul.""
"Marxism has an idea, though these days many sympathizers avoid that word like the plague. Class warfare. Class envy. Class struggle. Myth of the zero-sum. Wealth redistribution instead of wealth creation. "
""Human beings are born to be free. And we have that right because we were given it by God, not because a government gave it to us. We speak not on behalf of the institutions of church or state, but plead first that these ideas would penetrate the heart of the faithful."
http://www.davidba
ValeriaT
3 / 5 (2) Dec 02, 2012
Many people are living in powerty because of their egoistic leaders and corruptional government. Sometimes it's better to help them to get rid of these brakes of further progress and these people will help himself after then.

"Don't feed fish. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime."
ryggesogn2
2.5 / 5 (11) Dec 02, 2012
For Frankie, Koch and the rest of the socialists:

"A 'Tribute' to Communism "
http://www.americ...ges.html
ryggesogn2
2.5 / 5 (11) Dec 02, 2012
Jesus did not advocate a form of government, nor a political ideology,

I think He did:

His philosophy was one of personal morality in helping others, personal responsibility, and personal accountability.


Lurker2358
1 / 5 (3) Dec 02, 2012
Rygg:

Wealth cannot be "created". For the most part, the world has a limited number of resources. While new discoveries may allow more efficient allocation of those resources, and even increased productivity, we do not "create" wealth in any way.

Moreover, the scientists and engineers and "average joes" who contribute the brain power, hand skills, and the labor to bring about these things do not end up being rewarded much at all for their contribution. The one, or the few, guys who are already wealthy usually get all the "gain" from whatever was done, and everyone else is pretty much spit upon.

That's not communist Russia. That's not China, and that isn't even the middle east. That's the U.S.A.

There is NO EQUALITY in the U.S. There is only a false promise of equality, but really a hand full of corporations and tycoons own everything, most of whom inherited there stuff from their parents or grandparents.
Lurker2358
1.8 / 5 (5) Dec 02, 2012
For Frankie, Koch and the rest of the socialists:

"A 'Tribute' to Communism "
http://www.americ...ges.html


Poisoning the well.

Guilt by association, etc.

That's just corruption. That's not the fault of the concept of social justice or equality.

Jesus said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

If everyone literally followed that, as they hypocritically claim to be Christians, then it would be impossible for anyone to be scalping anyone or oppressing anyone with over priced goods or under paid wages, and it would certainly be impossible for any CEO to be making 100 or 1000 times more income than his average employee.

And for the record, the early church was radically communist, far from what I want...

Acts 4, 32And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and soul: and not one of them said that aught of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
ryggesogn2
2.5 / 5 (11) Dec 02, 2012
That's not the fault of the concept of social justice or equality.


Yes, it is.

impossible for anyone to be scalping anyone or oppressing anyone with over priced goods


No one is oppressed when the govt protect private property allowing competition.
Jesus attacked the money changers in the temple not just because they were doing business in the temple, they were also taking advantage of the monopoly created by the govt. to exchange local money to temple money.
Over priced goods can only occur when the business is protected by the state (aka socialism). And if the state forces lower prices by edict, rationing occurs and black markets spring up.
The fault lies in the system, the communist/socialist/fascist/'progressive' system.
'Progressives' always use the corruption excuse when socialism fails to bring prosperity. Socialism is not designed to bring prosperity, only misery from greed and envy by its proponents.
ryggesogn2
2.5 / 5 (13) Dec 02, 2012
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
Winston Churchill

Wealth cannot be "created". For the most part, the world has a limited number of resources

Wealth is created every second of everyday.
Until the sun dies, there are no limits to resources.
The universe recycles. All matter on the earth was created in a star. Life uses energy from the sun and heat from the earth to recycle that matter creating more stuff from the old stuff.
I think of wealth as the local decrease in entropy by life and intelligence.

Lurker2358
2 / 5 (4) Dec 02, 2012
Rygg:

You're ridiculous.

Do you have any idea how WARP our civilization is, even compared to historical norms?

I talked about this on another thread even a few days ago.

If the richest people gave up 90% of their income they'd still be in the top 1% and everyone else would have several thousand to perhaps ten thousand dollars per year income. The total wealth would be the same, it just wouldn't be hoarded by a few jerks who own everyone and everything.

If you think "hard work" is what makes individual "wealth" in this world, you're a damn fool, guy.

I know people who worked far more than most millionaires, and in fields producing the most important goods, and never made much more than barely enough to live on.

What you believe does not work in the real world, and is nowhere near "fair" nor "equal." A few people who happen to be in the right place at the right time, or who happen to inherit everything, make 100 or 1000 times more income than anyone else is supposedly fair?
Lurker2358
1.7 / 5 (6) Dec 02, 2012
The rich in the U.S. mostly do not create products or anything. It's the people working for them who create products and services.

The rich are just social parasites unjustly hoarding the excess productivity of everyone else.

Oh yes, Jesus said it was harder for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.

And as for one of the two temple cleansing incidents, he also said, "Take these things hence. Make not my Father's house a house of merchandise."

What they were actually doing was abusing the traditioanl temple sacrificial system to make money off people (which is the same model in church leadership today,) whereby they were selling "ceremonially clean" sheep and doves to be sacrificed, and if someone brought their own, they were declared "unclean" and forced to buy the inflated price goods. Which is in a word "Scalping," other similar terms are "Usury" and "Extortion".
Lurker2358
1.8 / 5 (5) Dec 02, 2012
You know what? Let's look at the whole context of where Jesus' famous statement came from, because Jesus actually just got finished ordering the "Rich young Ruler" to distribute all of his wealth among the poor. A radical communist instruction.

So he lists all the commandments, and the guy claims to have kept them all from his youth. Jesus did not rebuke him or accuse him of breaking any of those.

Then we get this.

Matt. 19, 21Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. 22But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sorrowful; for he was one that had great possessions.
23And Jesus said unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, It is hard for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus didn't like hoarders...
kochevnik
2.7 / 5 (7) Dec 02, 2012
@Noumenon There is NO general identifiable group of Christians who make a concerted effort to coerce others through violence.
Is that what your KKK and white power christian buddies told you?
obama_socks
1 / 5 (9) Dec 02, 2012
Jesus/Yeshua/Joshua was not a Communist. When he ordered the money changers out of the temple, he wasn't trying to abolish mercantilism and commerce. He drove them out because they were in a temple...a holy place. He knew the value of money and what it could buy. Jesus' father was a carpenter and carpenters get paid for their work.
I wrote the fairy tale Jesus was a socialist, not a communist. Moneychangers aren't allowed in his temple? He seems to have issues with them extending beyond the temple doors. Did you know we had carpenters in the Soviet Union? Working with wood doesn't make you an adamant capitalist.
-koch

It was the act of commercial dealings in the temple that were forbidden. The simple presence of the money changers was not the issue. It was what they were doing that was considered as blasphemous in a place meant for prayer.

Blotto is still a conspiracy theorist re: Estevan57, myself, MikeMassen and others. Pay no attention to the NAZI lover.
obama_socks
1.4 / 5 (11) Dec 03, 2012
@Noumenon There is NO general identifiable group of Christians who make a concerted effort to coerce others through violence.
Is that what your KKK and white power christian buddies told you?
kochevnik

LOL@koch...you are SO behind the times. That KKK stuff ended a long time ago. For instance, in the U.S., miscegenation between Blacks and Whites are quite a common occurrence, and their offspring are of both races. This has become generally accepted and most people here don't even think twice about it. And it happens most often in the South, where the KKK used to hang Blacks and burn crosses on lawns. In California, the Whites are mixing with Mexicans also; not White Mexicans...Mexican Indians, so your idea that all White Americans are still intolerant of other races and ethnics is totally wrong. Anyone can marry and/or have a baby with anyone they want.
You haven't learned much about Americans if you are still thinking about the way things were in old days. (contd)
obama_socks
1.4 / 5 (9) Dec 03, 2012
@koch
A hundred years ago and more, people from Europe, Eastern Europe, Russia, and other countries came to America with the idea that the streets were paved with gold. A lot of them were swindled out of whatever money they had if they put their trust in dishonest people, so that they needed assistance and a place to sleep. In those times, there were many charities who gave each immigrant whatever help they needed to survive until they could find a permanent job. And then they were expected to work hard to make it in America. Most of them did that, and many of them became wealthy. Most of the ones who became wealthy also were charitable to those less fortunate and provided jobs for newer immigrants. They did these things because they remembered where they came from and the bad conditions they lived under in the "old country". America is full of immigrants and descendants of immigrants. They all learned to work hard in order to succeed.
It's still the same now, but with a little twist.
obama_socks
1 / 5 (8) Dec 03, 2012
That little twist is the big push toward socialism. Hard work and success is laughed at in America these days. People are called "fools" if they still believe in the old values, while others who are getting handouts from the government on a permanent basis are actually PROUD of their status of robbing the American taxpayer. Legal theft by the U.S. gov't is what's destroying the economy. Taxes are going up in 2013 on the job providers. Later on, the working middle class will be hit with higher taxes also.
The corporations that you complain about...they OWN the jobs. They pay the workers to perform the work, but the workers don't own those jobs...the corporations do. I think that your President Putin knows this also. I think that Putin has been laughing at Obama and thinks Obama is a fool because Obama thinks that Putin approves socialism. He doesn't. Do you know the difference between socialism and actual communism? Jobs is the difference. People with jobs boost the economy, not welfare
obama_socks
1.1 / 5 (9) Dec 03, 2012
Muslims from the middle East who now live in America know this too. When they emigrated to this country, they came with the purpose of owning a business. Most motels and hotels seem to be owned by middle Eastern Muslims. Also convenience stores and gas stations. They are hard working people and they believe in Capitalism. They aren't the only ones...people from India and Pakistan are also buying businesses and working hard. If Obama has his way, all these hard working people will be taxed at higher rates and will likely lose their businesses. In the meantime, Obama takes care of his own and they take care of him with their votes.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.9 / 5 (17) Dec 03, 2012
Jesus said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

If everyone literally followed that, as they hypocritically claim to be Christians, then it would be impossible for anyone to be scalping anyone
If xians would stop lying and implying that Jesus invented the golden rule when we KNOW that the people who concocted your book of lies only appropriated it (STOLE it) from earlier religions, perhaps they would be setting a wholesome example of REAL honesty that more people would want to emulate.

Perhaps we would see less predation among the religions if they could all admit they were obviously DESIGNED to encourage this predation? Even Jesus said that those who did not accept his offer were already condemned. So why not victimize them, say the chosen? They have only brought it upon themselves, say xians.
obama_socks
1.4 / 5 (9) Dec 03, 2012
The topic of this thread is MUSLIMS, not Christians or Jews, except as an aside.
So, what's wrong with the appropriation of some good advice and rules for acceptance from an older culture, religion or civilization? It is already well known that these religious dogma, et al were "lifted" from other peoples with whom the Hebrews were neighbors under whatever circumstances. It's evident that MOST religions are not always static; they tend to change depending on the need, e.g. women rabbis and female Protestant ministers as well as homosexual clergy. Religious traditions, ceremony and other trappings have changed since religions started. Borrowing better stuff from the next tribe on the other side of the mountain is like the American Indian finding a good use for the horses that the Spaniards brought to the Americas...or their learning about wheels. Religions are no different.

Religions were not designed to encourage predation, except for the misanthropic teachings of some Islamic clerics
obama_socks
1.4 / 5 (9) Dec 03, 2012
Wars fought by the Hebrews were basically for real estate expansion to accommodate their burgeoning numbers. Their kings and "priests" or fortune tellers decided on which regions to invade in order to steal the land from its owners. It's doubtful that they were commanded by God to do all these killings and plundering since the commandment "thou shalt not kill" would have no meaning, except for self-defense.
It is most likely that it became expedient to commit the atrocities described in the O.T. for political reasons, not religious. But God received the blame for all the wanton murders committed. That made the ancient Hebrews no better than wandering bandits and thugs, except in certain instances when God did, indeed, command them.

God has been blamed for many bad things throughout history, when the blame really should have been placed on human greed and malice against others.

But Jesus brought a different message: of love thy neighbor as thyself, which the Jews rejected, of course.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (16) Dec 03, 2012
Wars fought by the Hebrews were basically for real estate expansion to accommodate their burgeoning numbers.
No they were fought to reclaim the promised land. They were fought because god told them to.
It's doubtful that they were commanded by God to do all these killings and plundering
No, if you knew the bible and understood that you cant know it just by pretending you do, then you would KNOW that god commanded them to do EVERY ONE of these things. Explicitly. And when they faltered, gideon came along and punished them severely.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (18) Dec 03, 2012
But Jesus brought a different message: of love thy neighbor as thyself, which the Jews rejected, of course.
No, jesus STOLE the sentiment from the jews in the OT:

"34 The foreigners residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself." lev19
"Do to no one what you yourself dislike." Tobit 4:15
"That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn." Talmud

-who STOLE it from babylon, and china, and egypt et al. The people who made up your little godman were rarely original. This is one of the many ways we know that he is fiction.

Why do enjoy demonstrating how ignorant you are?
obama_socks
1.4 / 5 (9) Dec 03, 2012
I read the O.T. and the N.T. from cover to cover when I was a young man and haven't studied it again in many years as it wasn't foremost in my mind as much as graduating from Caltech and embarking on my high tech profession. I have forgotten more of both testaments from those days while I was as interested in it then as you are now. You may recall each verse better than I can, but you will never understand many things about those verses. It is foreign to you because of your extreme hatred of that which you don't understand and believe in.
You profess to know everything there is to know about a religion that you hate, and its offshoots of Christianity and Islam. I have always wondered, and many others here have also wondered, what it is that drives your hatred. What happened in your past that created such animosity? Even the most atheistic of atheists are far less dramatic emotionally in their hatred of God than you. Your hatred has become a sickness that consumes you. What a pity.
obama_socks
1.4 / 5 (9) Dec 03, 2012
Wars fought by the Hebrews were basically for real estate expansion to accommodate their burgeoning numbers.
No they were fought to reclaim the promised land. They were fought because god told them to.
It's doubtful that they were commanded by God to do all these killings and plundering
No, if you knew the bible and understood that you cant know it just by pretending you do, then you would KNOW that god commanded them to do EVERY ONE of these things. Explicitly. And when they faltered, gideon came along and punished them severely.
-Blotto

They wandered around in the desert 40 years and finally found a settlement while the Hebrews didn't even know the exact location of the "promised land" and they proceeded to kill off the natives and take their loot.
After 40 years homeless in the desert, their leaders, in order to maintain control politically, would have given the command to attack the strangers and say that God willed it. They lied and people died.
obama_socks
1.4 / 5 (9) Dec 03, 2012
As I've said, 40 yrs in the desert and they were eager to attack even the innocent and make off with gold, silver, goats, sheep, whatever...and take some pride in defeating an "enemy" who were probably peaceful only because their leaders said so. Their leaders would have known this and allowed them to work off some steam

If you can't understand this, then you don't know human nature.
obama_socks
1 / 5 (8) Dec 03, 2012
But Jesus brought a different message: of love thy neighbor as thyself, which the Jews rejected, of course.
No, jesus STOLE the sentiment from the jews in the OT:

"34 The foreigners residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself." lev19
"Do to no one what you yourself dislike." Tobit 4:15
"That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn." Talmud

-who STOLE it from babylon, and china, and egypt et al. The people who made up your little godman were rarely original. This is one of the many ways we know that he is fiction.

Why do enjoy demonstrating how ignorant you are?
-Blotto

And why is it that you cannot comprehend what's written right there in the Bible as it truly is?
34-"The foreigners RESIDING among you....." That means neighbors, customers, friends of a friend, etc.
The other two means "have RESPECT" for your neighbor, not actual love.
obama_socks
1.4 / 5 (9) Dec 03, 2012
Jesus did not "steal" a sentiment. As a Jew, a rabbi, and as the Son of the Creator, he was privy to all the knowledge in the Torah, which he gave to his disciples as sermons and parables.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.9 / 5 (17) Dec 03, 2012
I read the O.T. and the N.T. from cover to cover when I was a young man and haven't studied it again in many years as it wasn't foremost in my mind as much as graduating from Caltech and embarking on my high tech profession.
Jesus hates stinking liars dont you know that?
many others here have also wondered, what it is that drives your hatred
I hate stinking liars too.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.9 / 5 (17) Dec 03, 2012
You know its funny pussytard, you talk about your religion and the golden rule but you come here and lie, and pretend to be people you are not, and can do things and know things you can't and don't, and you're too ficking inconsiderate to research the crud you post or refrain from flooding your ignorance in 30 posts a thread.

You wouldn't want people to treat YOU this way, and yet you're too selfish to keep from doing so HERE. Why is that? If you loved Jesus you would try to understand the golden rule the way Hammurabi did when he originally wrote it.

What if I came by and crapped on your front lawn? Would you appreciate that?
ryggesogn2
2.2 / 5 (10) Dec 03, 2012
to distribute all of his wealth among the poor. A radical communist instruction.

No, it is called charity.
Communism requires an intermediary, the state.

Jesus told the rich man to SELL all he had. Doesn't sound very communistic.
If the richest people gave up 90% of their income they'd still be in the top 1% and everyone else would have several thousand to perhaps ten thousand dollars per year income.


And DO what with their unearned income. You forget one small feature of humans, self worth. 'Progressives' like to call it self esteem and think they can build self esteem in children by giving everyone a trophy instead of the winner.
Giving people everything won't change human nature and has been demonstrated to make it worse.
Lurk wants people to be treated like livestock, not humans.
ryggesogn2
2.2 / 5 (10) Dec 03, 2012
Lurch, why don't the 'progressives' favorite billionaires, Buffet and Soros give all their money to you or the govt? Why don't' you all demand it?
After all, according you they did not earn it so you have every right to take it all away.
obama_socks
1.8 / 5 (10) Dec 03, 2012
I read the O.T. and the N.T. from cover to cover when I was a young man and haven't studied it again in many years as it wasn't foremost in my mind as much as graduating from Caltech and embarking on my high tech profession.
Jesus hates stinking liars dont you know that?
many others here have also wondered, what it is that drives your hatred
I hate stinking liars too.
-Blotto

Then why do you consistently lie, and why do you pretend to know all about the O.T. and N.T. and Torah? And why is it that you, who purports to know so much about Christianity and Judaism, fail to "read between the lines" as to the REAL meanings in the Bible? Surely, even a nihilist nitwit like YOU should have been able to understand that there are hidden meanings in the Bible and those were put there because the Hebrews were ruled over by others, so that they had to HIDE a lot of the contents of their Bible stories for fear of reprisals. Answers to mysteries are out in the open if you look.
obama_socks
1.4 / 5 (9) Dec 03, 2012
You know its funny pussytard, you talk about your religion and the golden rule but you come here and lie, and pretend to be people you are not, and can do things and know things you can't and don't, and you're too ficking inconsiderate to research the crud you post or refrain from flooding your ignorance in 30 posts a thread.

You wouldn't want people to treat YOU this way, and yet you're too selfish to keep from doing so HERE. Why is that? If you loved Jesus you would try to understand the golden rule the way Hammurabi did when he originally wrote it.

What if I came by and crapped on your front lawn? Would you appreciate that?
-Blotto

So you're saying that Physorg is your front lawn? Who knew?
And you're STILL in "it's a conspiracy against Blotto" mode which is proof that you're mentally ill. Pussycateyes doesn't like you because you're a nutcase and you have spoiled Physorg for everyone who enjoy commenting on the topics without reading your paranoid crap.

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