Scientists look at climate change, the superstorm

Oct 31, 2012 by Seth Borenstein
This NOAA satellite image taken Tuesday, Oct. 30, 2012, shows superstorm Sandy slowly moving westward while weakening across southern Pennsylvania. The National Weather Service said a foot and more of snow was reported in lower elevations of West Virginia, where most towns and roads are. High elevations in the mountains were getting more than two feet and a blizzard warning for more than a dozen counties was in effect until Wednesday afternoon. (AP Photo/NOAA)

Climate scientist Michael Oppenheimer stood along the Hudson River and watched his research come to life as Hurricane Sandy blew through New York.

Just eight months earlier, the Princeton University professor reported that what used to be once-in-a-century devastating floods in New York City would soon happen every three to 20 years. He blamed global warming for pushing up sea levels and changing hurricane patterns.

New York "is now highly vulnerable to extreme hurricane-surge flooding," he wrote.

For more than a dozen years, Oppenheimer and other climate scientists have been warning about the risk for big storms and serious flooding in New York. A 2000 federal report about global warming's effect on the United States warned specifically of that possibility.

Still, they say it's unfair to blame climate change for Sandy and the destruction it left behind. They cautioned that they cannot yet conclusively link a single storm to global warming, and any connection is not as clear and simple as might contend.

"The ingredients of this storm seem a little bit cooked by climate change, but the overall storm is difficult to attribute to global warming," Canada's University of Victoria climate scientist Andrew Weaver said.

Some individual parts of Sandy and its wrath seem to be influenced by , several climate scientists said.

First, there's . Water levels around New York are a nearly a foot (0.3 meters) higher than they were 100 years ago, said Penn State University climate scientist Michael Mann.

Add to that the temperature of the Atlantic Ocean, which is about 2 degrees Fahrenheit (.8 degrees Celsius) warmer on average than a century ago, said Katharine Hayhoe, a climate scientist at Texas Tech University. Warm water fuels hurricanes.

And Sandy zipped north along a warmer-than-normal that travels from the Caribbean to Ireland, said Jeff Masters, meteorology director for the private service Weather Underground.

Meteorologists are also noticing more hurricanes late in the season and even after the season. A 2008 study said the Atlantic hurricane season seems to be starting earlier and lasting longer but found no explicit link to global warming. Normally there are 11 named Atlantic storms. The past two years have seen 19 and 18 named storms. This year, with one month to go, there are 19.

After years of disagreement, and hurricane experts have concluded that as the climate warms, there will be fewer total hurricanes. But those storms that do develop will be stronger and wetter.

Sandy took an unprecedented sharp left turn into New Jersey. Usually storms keep heading north and turn east harmlessly out to sea. But a strong ridge of high pressure centered over Greenland blocked Sandy from going north or east, according to the National Hurricane Center.

Jennifer Francis of Rutgers University, an expert in how a warming Arctic affects extreme weather patterns, said recent warming in the Arctic may have played a role in enlarging or prolonging that high pressure area. But she cautioned it's not clear whether the warming really had that influence on Sandy.

While components of Sandy seem connected to global warming, "mostly it's natural, I'd say it's 80, 90 percent natural," said Gerald North, a climate professor at Texas A&M University. "These things do happen, like the drought. It's a natural thing."

On Tuesday, both New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg and Gov. Andrew Cuomo said they couldn't help but notice that extreme events like Sandy are causing them more and more trouble.

"What is clear is that the storms that we've experienced in the last year or so, around this country and around the world, are much more severe than before," Bloomberg said. "Whether that's or what, I don't know. But we'll have to address those issues."

Cuomo called the changes "a new reality."

"Anyone who says that there's not a dramatic change in weather patterns I think is denying reality," Cuomo said. "I told the president the other day: 'We have a 100-year flood every two years now.'"

For his published research, Oppenheimer looked at New York City's record flood of 1821. Sandy flooded even higher. This week's damage was augmented by the past century's rise, which was higher than the world average because of unusual coastal geography and ocean currents. Oppenheimer walked from his Manhattan home to the river Monday evening to watch the storm.

"We sort of knew it could happen, but you know that's different from actually standing there and watching it happen," Oppenheimer said from a cell phone. "You don't really imagine what this looks like until you see it."

Explore further: Quakes destroy or damage 83 houses in Philippines

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User comments : 48

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VendicarD
3.4 / 5 (5) Nov 01, 2012
Just keep saying to yourself..

It isn't happening.

It isn't happening.

It isn't happening.

It isn't happening.

It isn't happening...

and it sill stop happening.

Scientifically Illiterate Conservatives are sure of it.
rubberman
3.7 / 5 (6) Nov 01, 2012
Just keep saying to yourself..

It isn't happening.

It isn't happening.

It isn't happening.

It isn't happening.

It isn't happening...

and it sill stop happening.

Scientifically Illiterate Conservatives are sure of it.


Add to this sitting curled up in the fetal position rocking back and forth while sucking your thumb and you've got yourself an Anthony Watts Saturday night.....
VendicarD
3 / 5 (6) Nov 01, 2012
Anthony Watts is doing very well for himself financially now that he has retired as a radio weather announcer and decided to become a shill for the U.S. Carbon industry.

rubberman
3.4 / 5 (5) Nov 01, 2012
Speaking of shills....one has been noticably absent of late. Must be frozen in somewhere in Washington State.
VendicarD
4 / 5 (4) Nov 01, 2012
Yes. I hear that he is in the hospital, trying to get his head surgically removed from his backside.

The surgeons don't think it is possible without additional brain injury.

Things are not going well for sunshinehours1.

rubberman
4 / 5 (4) Nov 01, 2012
Oh oh...there is only so much trauma a brain can handle before it begins to shut down and exhibit symptoms of paranoid delusion, the subject becomes decoupled from reality and....

How many times has this happened?
Noumenon
4.2 / 5 (51) Nov 01, 2012
Right, the AGW hysterical bed-wetters demand that a few decades is not enough time of non-warming data, to conclude that AGW is not at catastrophic levels,..... but according to these same dimwits, a singular storm system IS.

They also attack scientists that disagree, like Watts, yet demand that politicians hand over judgement and speculation to the scientists.

Go Figure.

If the rest of mankind had the same "paranoid delusion" that the cataclysmic AGW alarmist had, the Green Energy Industry would actually exist in reality.
rubberman
4.4 / 5 (7) Nov 01, 2012
"They also attack scientists that disagree, like Watts, yet demand that politicians hand over judgement and speculation to the scientists."

Really....a scientist...Watts? I'm sorry i ever doubted any of his remarkable insights....or yours.

When does Lindsay Lohan begin her tenure at CERN?
Probably after Jay and Silent Bob finish up their research...
Exciting times for science!
Noumenon
4.3 / 5 (50) Nov 01, 2012
OK, good point, I stand corrected.

Insert another climate scientist that offers a counter opinion to accepted dogma, and watch the trolls deny that they are even scientists,.. as I demonstrated here.

My general point still stands.
Noumenon
4.1 / 5 (53) Nov 01, 2012
Anthony Watts is doing very well for himself financially now that he has retired as a radio weather announcer and decided to become a shill for the U.S. Carbon industry.
- VendickarD


Your conspiracy theory is unfounded. The oil and coal industry are not threatened by the green industry.

The global economies are based on the oil and coal industry, and the momentum of this use has not slowed, nor is there a force to slow it down. If a conspiracy theory is needed, it is for the benefit of the green industry.
VendicarD
4.2 / 5 (5) Nov 01, 2012
NumenTard claims that the last 2 or more decades have shown no warming.

He is lying of course. The upward trend, shown below, is astonishingly rapid.

http://www.woodfo...92/trend

"Right, the AGW hysterical bed-wetters demand that a few decades is not enough time of non-warming data, to conclude that AGW is not at catastrophic levels" - NumenTard
VendicarD
3.4 / 5 (5) Nov 01, 2012
There is no conspiracy. Radio Weather Announcer, Watts is well paid for his denialism.

"Your conspiracy theory is unfounded." - NumenTard

Who do you think pays for running his website?
VendicarD
4 / 5 (4) Nov 01, 2012
I blame criminally dishonest Conservatives for that failure.

You know the kind of dishonest cretins that I am referring to.. the kind that dishonesty assert that Antony Watts is a scientist.

"The global economies are based on the oil and coal industry, and the momentum of this use has not slowed" - NumenTard

I'm sure you agree.
Noumenon
4.1 / 5 (53) Nov 01, 2012
NumenTard claims that the last 2 or more decades have shown no warming.

He is lying of course. The upward trend, shown below, is astonishingly rapid.

http://www.woodfo...92/trend

"Right, the AGW hysterical bed-wetters demand that a few decades is not enough time of non-warming data, to conclude that AGW is not at catastrophic levels" - NumenTard


LOL, 0.30 degrees is not "astonishingly rapid".
VendicarD
4.2 / 5 (5) Nov 01, 2012
Global warming 0.2'C per decade over the last 2 decades.

"If the rest of mankind had the same "paranoid delusion"..." - NumenTard
VendicarD
3.9 / 5 (7) Nov 01, 2012
It translates to 3'C per century, which is very, very rapid indeed.

Almost unprecedented.

"LOL, 0.30 degrees is not "astonishingly rapid"." - NumenTard

So why did you choose to lie when you asserted that there had been no warming over the last 20 years?
Noumenon
4.2 / 5 (53) Nov 01, 2012
It translates to 3'C per century, which is very, very rapid indeed.

Almost unprecedented.

"LOL, 0.30 degrees is not "astonishingly rapid"." - NumenTard

So why did you choose to lie when you asserted that there had been no warming over the last 20 years?


I didn't lie, though I should have said the previous 16 years, rather than saying "two decades".

HERE is a link which even YOU provided in the PhysOrg thread I linked to above, showing the trend line leveling for the previous 16 years.

I DO believe that putting carbon into the atmosphere will cause an effect on global cliamte. I do NOT believe that that effect is a run-away catastrophe, that requires control over human behavior, and anti-capitalist policies. I do NOT believe that climate science has a handle on long term global climate to the accuracy of a few tenths of a degree per decade, to make the hysterical predictions.
Noumenon
4.2 / 5 (52) Nov 01, 2012
"The global economies are based on the oil and coal industry, and the momentum of this use has not slowed" - Noumenon

I blame criminally dishonest Conservatives for that failure.

You know the kind of dishonest cretins that I am referring to.. the kind that dishonesty assert that Antony Watts is a scientist.

I'm sure you agree.


Not really, I was being charitable to rubberman. According to Wiki this Anthony Watts is a meteorologist which evidently is a scientist who studies the atmosphere,... hardly comparable to Lindsey Lohan.

In your idealist world you have the luxury of blaming whom ever you wish. For me, I post about the reality that is front of me, and this reality shows that it was an inevitable manifestation of human nature, free of gov oppression, which caused civilized society as it exists today, and therefore the use of the most efficient energy source available. Alternatives will have to compete with oil/c
djr
5 / 5 (6) Nov 01, 2012
"Alternatives will have to compete with oil/c"

Noumen - is it your understanding that the governments of the world have not been involved in the development of the coal/oil/gas industries - and that the only reason we are at the place we are at today is free market competition? I have not had the time to read any books on the subject - but it is my understanding that governments have been very involved in these industries over the past 200 years - often intervening in countries like Iraq politically for the benefit of the big corporations. I do know the U.S. Gvt has been heavily involved in sponsoring technology development for these industries, also supplying subsidies, tax breaks etc. Also much involvement in terms of regulations (eg mercury emmission regulations). So I am confused that in your world there is this magical - Government free - free market system.
VendicarD
4.4 / 5 (7) Nov 02, 2012
So after seeing hundreds of examples of people being corrected for telling the same lie that you did, you just happened to make the same mistake.

You didn't intend to lie....

"I didn't lie, though I should have said the previous 16 years, rather than saying "two decades"." - NumenTard

Sorry Tard Boy. Your explanation isn't acceptable to any thinking person.

Now as to your second claim of no warming for the last 16 years...

That too is a lie.

http://www.woodfo...97/trend

As everyone can see, the warming has been 0.1'C over that time period.

Poor NumenTard. Caught in another lie.

I have never encountered a Conservative who wasn't a congenital and a perpetual liar.

NumenTard is no exception to that rule.
VendicarD
4.3 / 5 (6) Nov 02, 2012
NumenTard now presents a link to a plot of the outdated dataset HadCrut3 which is known to exclude large regions of the poles and hence dramatically underestimates the extent of the warming.

HadCrut4 in part compensates for that failure.

"HERE is a link which even YOU provided in the PhysOrg thread I linked to above, showing the trend line leveling for the previous 16 years."

Odd how NumenTard is trying to rely on a data set that is outdated, and known to be biased, and which has been replaced, to support his continued lie.

And even when he does that, the plot still shows warming where he claims there is none.

Poor NumenTard. When will he ever learn?
VendicarD
4.3 / 5 (6) Nov 02, 2012
"I do NOT believe that that effect is a run-away catastrophe, that requires control over human behavior, and anti-capitalist policies." - NumenTard

NumenTard has "faith" in Capitalism to solve every problem.

He is like any other blind religionist who will distort or deny any truth that challenges his religion.

I on the other hand am a reasonable, and pragmatic man who has watched unregulated capitalism destroy his country, ethically, morally, socially, intellectually, and fiscally.

America provides the world with a wonderful example of how the excesses of Capitalism must be controlled by the state in order to maintain a viable nation and a viable economy.

True Believers like NumenTard will of course use any excuse, no matter how foolish, to absolve Capitalism from blame since the core beliefs of their faith are at stake.

It is no coincidence that as America's reliance on magical thinking increases, so too has it's rate of decline increased.

VendicarD
4 / 5 (4) Nov 02, 2012
Anthony Watts, Meteorologist:
Weekdays at 5:00, 5:30, 6:30 & 11:00 PM

Anthony has been with KHSL-TV since October, 1987. He is well known for his forecasts and technical skills, and has the AMS Seal of Approval, (the only one in the area).

He has 20 years of broadcast experience, and unparalleled computer and weather systems knowledge. He even makes his own weather systems for on-air use.

With a complete understanding of TV technology from the ground up, he often helps make other things happen at KHSL-TV.

Anthony began his broadcasting career, in 1978 in Lafayette, Indiana.

His unique real name is Willard Anthony Watts, as in "Willard Watts with the Weather"
VendicarD
4 / 5 (4) Nov 02, 2012
To Denialists like NumenTard. A washed up radio weather announcer is a "scientist".

Just like dog catchers and bakers are "scientists" I suppose.

Poor, Confused NumenTard.

he doesn't know what a scientist is, but he knows through his faith, that Free Market Capitalism is the solution to every problem.

Former Radio Weather Announcer = Scientist Willard, Anthony Watts, agrees with him.

VendicarD
4 / 5 (4) Nov 02, 2012
Modern society is defined by government of course. Society could not exist without government defined and enforced rule of law.

Modern governance of course evolved from the governance of the church, which evolved from the governance of tribal elders, which evolved from the governance of family.

It is funny to see NumenTard decrying government while at the same time relying on one of the greatest achievements of Government - the Internet to spread his anti-government message.

NumenTard claims to base his reasoning on what he sees around him, but is clearly blind to the very technology that he is using to make that ridiculous assertion.

"reality shows that it was an inevitable manifestation of human nature, free of gov oppression, which caused civilized society as it exists today" - NumenTard

Conservatism truly is a mental disorder.
Noumenon
4.2 / 5 (51) Nov 02, 2012
"Alternatives will have to compete with oil/c"

Noumen - is it your understanding that the governments of the world have not been involved in the development of the coal/oil/gas industries - and that the only reason we are at the place we are at today is free market competition? - but it is my understanding that governments have been very involved in these industries over the past 200 years - often intervening in countries like Iraq politically for the benefit of the big corporations. I do know the U.S. Gvt has been heavily involved in sponsoring technology development for these industries, also supplying subsidies, tax breaks etc. Also much involvement in terms of regulations (eg mercury emmission regulations). So I am confused that in your world there is this magical - Government free - free market system.


You're correct, but I was refering to the USE of oil on a massive scale as dictated by the free market.
Noumenon
4.3 / 5 (50) Nov 02, 2012
As everyone can see, the warming has been 0.1'C over that time period.


So whats the margin if error then, 0.003*c, LOL.

You're a gullible fool if you think they have such an accurate knowledge of global temps. All the graphs show me is that according to their own data the global temperature has been remarkably stable over the past 100 years.

The graph that you posted (that I linked to above) shows that you can tilt the trend line by scaling the graph in, which given lack of hard data for the past few thousand years, is exactly what is being done with the graph from 1880 to 2010.

A better argument is to show ppm co2 increase, which I agree is related to human use and is potentially a problem.
Noumenon
4.2 / 5 (51) Nov 02, 2012
"I do NOT believe that that effect is a run-away catastrophe, that requires control over human behavior, and anti-capitalist policies." - NumenTard

NumenTard has "faith" in Capitalism to solve every problem.

I on the other hand am a reasonable, and pragmatic man who has watched unregulated capitalism destroy his country, ethically, morally, socially, intellectually, and fiscally.

America provides the world with a wonderful example of how the excesses of Capitalism must be controlled by the state in order to maintain a viable nation and a viable economy.

True Believers like NumenTard will of course use any excuse, ...to absolve Capitalism from blame since the core beliefs of their faith are at stake.

It is no coincidence that as America's reliance on magical thinking increases, so too has it's rate of decline increased.


Thank you for admitting your true motivation for the propaganda that is cataclysmic AGW. We know this, and is the reason we are defeating you now.
Noumenon
4.2 / 5 (51) Nov 02, 2012
It is funny to see NumenTard decrying government while at the same time relying on one of the greatest achievements of Government - the Internet to spread his anti-government message.


Whether it's oil from the ground or funding for an idea that had been obvious for some time like the internet, ... it is useless nothingness unless that free market decides to make use of it.

Which is why the government and auto makers keep losing tax money in investing in the green industry. The green industry will sit on a shelve and collect dust until the Free Market Decides it's worthy of generating profit,... like the internet and oil did. Economics 101.
Noumenon
4.2 / 5 (51) Nov 02, 2012
NumenTard now presents a link to a plot of the outdated dataset HadCrut3 which is known to exclude large regions of the poles and hence dramatically underestimates the extent of the warming.

HadCrut4 in part compensates for that failure.

"HERE is a link which even YOU provided in the PhysOrg thread I linked to above, showing the trend line leveling for the previous 16 years."

Odd how NumenTard is trying to rely on a data set that is outdated, and known to be biased, and which has been replaced, to support his continued lie.

And even when he does that, the plot still shows warming where he claims there is none.

Poor NumenTard. When will he ever learn?


Not too honest are you. That was data YOU provided.
rubberman
4 / 5 (4) Nov 02, 2012
"The green industry will sit on a shelve and collect dust until the Free Market Decides it's worthy of generating profit,."

It sounds like you need to research "the green industry". Any environmental regulation that has been implemented to constrain the amount of pollution allowed by anyone, be it energy production, manufacturing, farming or personal is part of "the green industry". Any R & D currently underway to maximize efficiency and minimize waste, any scientific studies providing info. to the people doing the R & D, anyone related to designing and constructing anything that can be seen as an environmental benefit are part of "the green industry".

The only entity bigger than the green industry is the oil and gas industry.

The fact that corporate strategists have found ways to profit from these initiatives doesn't make the initiatives themselves any less beneficial to the health of the environment.
VendicarD
4.2 / 5 (5) Nov 02, 2012
"So whats the margin if error then, 0.003*c, LOL." - UbVonTard

The individual sample uncertainty is around 0.08'C with a 2 sigma confidence interval.

Do you wish to change your claim from, there has been no warming over the last 16 years, to ,there has been no statistically significant warming over the last 16 years?

If so then your objection is meaningless since there has never been a period where there has been statistically significant climate warming over a 16 year period since climate isn't defined on intervals that short.

Of course, no model predicts statistically significant warming over a 16 year period.

So your objections are not based on any form of rational thought.
VendicarD
4 / 5 (4) Nov 02, 2012
Ya. I provided it to show that even with his own biased data set, his claim of cooling was a lie.

"Not too honest are you. That was data YOU provided." - NumenTard

Sad how these denialists lie, and lie, and lie and lie.

I'm sure you agree.
VendicarD
4 / 5 (4) Nov 02, 2012
Yes. That nonsense can no longer be tolerated.

"I was refering to the USE of oil on a massive scale as dictated by the free market." - NumenTard

It is pure poison, both the dictates of free market fundamentalism and the free market fundamentalism itself.

The American collapse is the principle example by which it will be exterminated.
VendicarD
4.2 / 5 (5) Nov 02, 2012
Statements like the one below, are why NumenTard is deserving of the "TARD" moniker.

"it is useless nothingness unless that free market decides to make use of it." - NumenTard

There has never been a free market, and there never will be. His claim is that the free market is required for something to be more than "utter nothingness". Which immediately resolves to everything must be utter nothingness since there is no free market to decide.

Poor NumenTard. His Free Market Ideology makes him incapable of rational thought.
ValeriaT
1.3 / 5 (8) Nov 02, 2012
Your conspiracy theory is unfounded. The oil and coal industry are not threatened by the green industry.

I do agree with it. Until we don't introduce the cold fusion (which is carefully avoided both with green, both carbon lobbyists as a single man), then so-called green technologies actually do increase the consumption of fossil carbon and devastation of the nature instead. For example the production and usage of electromobiles seemingly decreases the consumption of oil, but it increases the consumption of raw materials, for production of which a huge amount of energy is required (and the China has a monopoly for it). As a whole it just serves as a pressure to consumers for spending of more money for new more expensive products. Why the fossil fuel lobbyists should fight against it?
VendicarD
4.2 / 5 (5) Nov 02, 2012
There are shallow people who believe that saving money is the only virtue to be had.

Thinking people realize that the social contract necessitates other considerations regarding non-renewable resource allocation and consumption, and other externalities like pollution that do not appear in Money Grubber Ideology.

"Which is why the government and auto makers keep losing tax money in investing in the green industry." - NumenTard
Bog_Mire
4 / 5 (4) Nov 02, 2012
USA do yourselves a favour and relocate all your old coastal Nuclear Power Plants or scrap them for new Super Storm proof ones. Embrace solar and wind. Stop kidding yourselves that you are immune to nature's fury. Join the rest of the world and legislate a carbon economy. Stop being so damned self absorbed. It is your Earth too.
Noumenon
4.2 / 5 (51) Nov 03, 2012
Of course, no model predicts statistically significant warming over a 16 year period.


And yet there are pinheads who claim that a particular storm's strength is caused by AGW. Which was my original point in this thread.
VendicarD
4 / 5 (4) Nov 03, 2012
I haven't seen any. Certainly no scientist has made such a claim.

"And yet there are pinheads who claim that a particular storm's strength is caused by AGW." - NumenTard

What I have seen are people correctly claiming that the warming of the earth influenced the storm, increasing the probability that any particular storm is stronger, etc.

Those claims are reasonable.

Yours is just evidence free Fantasy.
Maggnus
4.2 / 5 (5) Nov 03, 2012
Until we don't introduce the cold fusion (which is carefully avoided both with green, both carbon lobbyists as a single man),


If nothing else, I give you points for persistance.

I'm sure i speak for many when I ask you to stop trolling every conversation that mentions anything, even in the most cursury way, about green energy with comments about cold fusion.

I do hope it's real, however as matters stand the jury is out on it, and until some new evidence (real evidence BTW) comes along, it is simply an interesting curiosity.

Leave it alone.
Maggnus
4.5 / 5 (8) Nov 03, 2012
And yet there are pinheads who claim that a particular storm's strength is caused by AGW. Which was my original point in this thread.


Then you ought to read the article again, maybe with my 12 year old at your side so he can explain the big words to you.

Scientists have consistantly and constantly pointed out that no one particular storm can be confidently linked to global warming. "Global" mean the WHOLE planet, not any one particular region.
Noumenon
4.3 / 5 (50) Nov 04, 2012
And yet there are pinheads who claim that a particular storm's strength is caused by AGW. Which was my original point in this thread.


Then you ought to read the article again, maybe with my 12 year old at your side so he can explain the big words to you.

Scientists have consistantly and constantly pointed out that no one particular storm can be confidently linked to global warming. "Global" mean the WHOLE planet, not any one particular region.


Perhaps you ought to read my post again, maybe with my 5 year old at your side so she can explain basic logic to you.

I clearly said "pinheads" are making that claim, so, logically if one is not doing so, they would not qualify as "pinheads" given my statement. Not complicated.

I don't have a problem about reasonable measures to take against dirty co2. There are far leftist, socialists, that wish to use AGW, to implement their political agenda. Like VD, they're anti-capitalists, and pro-social engineering. This is a fact.
Noumenon
4.5 / 5 (47) Nov 04, 2012
"For me, the Nashville flood was a milestone. ..For many, Hurricane Sandy may prove to be a similar event: a time when the climate crisis — which is often sequestered to the far reaches of our everyday awareness became a reality.,... Both natural disasters were strengthened by the climate crisis." - King of AGW, Albert Gore
Noumenon
4.4 / 5 (47) Nov 04, 2012
"The green industry will sit on a shelve and collect dust until the Free Market Decides it's worthy of generating profit,."

It sounds like you need to research "the green industry". Any environmental regulation that has been implemented to constrain the amount of pollution allowed by anyone, be it energy production, manufacturing, farming or personal is part of "the green industry". Any R & D currently underway to maximize efficiency and minimize waste, any scientific studies providing info. to the people doing the R & D, anyone related to designing and constructing anything that can be seen as an environmental benefit are part of "the green industry".


False. All of that had already existed or would continue to exist independently of "the immenient AGW threat". The "green industry" is a specific response to AGW, in pushing alternative energy use. All of that traditionally having been environmentalism, has been laid claim to by the "green industry".

djr
5 / 5 (2) Nov 04, 2012
"The "green industry" is a specific response to AGW" Noumenon - can you conceive of a win-win scenario? If we continue on the current path we regard to renewable energy - we will lower the cost of electricity, reduce pollution, reduce green house gasses, and decentralize the power system so that we are no longer hostage to massive business systems that are close to monopolistic. As a supporter of free market thinking (with appropriate government oversight), I cannot see a down side to embracing the technologies of the future!
djr
5 / 5 (2) Nov 04, 2012
You're correct, but I was refering to the USE of oil on a massive scale as dictated by the free market.

The free market - aided by large swaths of government support. The Saudi Royal family sees the economic sense of going green - could the largest oil producer in the world knows something you don't Noumenon? http://gas2.org/2...0-green/
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Nov 04, 2012
The hurricane that hit Long Island in '38 was more powerful than Sally.
Fewer people built on the beach then so there was less damage.