Higgs boson: Landmark announcement clears key hurdle

Sep 10, 2012
A handout graphic from CERN shows a representation of traces of traces of a proton-proton collision measured in the Compact Muon Solenoid (CMS) experience in the search for the Higgs boson. The announcement two months ago that physicists have discovered a particle consistent with the famous Higgs boson cleared a formal hurdle with publication in a peer-reviewed journal.

The announcement two months ago that physicists have discovered a particle consistent with the famous Higgs boson cleared a formal hurdle on Monday with publication in a peer-reviewed journal.

Two laboratories working at the European Organisation for Nuclear Research (CERN) had jointly announced on July 4 they had detected a new in experiments at the near Geneva.

The discovery has been hailed as one of the biggest scientific achievements ever.

The teams, from labs called Atlas and the (CMS), on Monday each published their findings in the European journal Physics Letters B.

They are available at www.sciencedirect.com/science/… ii/S037026931200857X and www.sciencedirect.com/science/… ii/S0370269312008581 .

Although CERN's announcement was never doubted, it still had to be vetted by peers and then published in an established journal to meet benchmarks of accuracy and openness.

Further work is being carried out to confirm whether the new particle is the famous , whose existence was theorised back in 1964 to explain why obtain mass.

Without the Higgs, atoms could not form, which means the physical Universe would not exist, say scientists.

"The discovery reported in these papers is a momentous step forward in fundamental knowledge," said Atlas spokeswoman Fabiola Gianotti.

"It is the culmination of more than 20 years of effort of the worldwide high-energy physics community to build and operate instruments of unprecedented technology, complexity and performance."

More than 5,000 researchers worldwide took part in the long quest, and both papers are dedicated to the memory of colleagues who had died.

Physics Letters B was where British physicist Peter Higgs first published a letter, "Broken symmetries, and gauge fields," that sparked the hunt for the boson.

His name is attached to the particle, but two other groups of theoreticians can also claim to have made major contributions.

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Jitterbewegung
3.7 / 5 (3) Sep 10, 2012
I'd like to know why there is no mention of a possible discovery of the Higgs boson in the Cern courier?
I've hunted through the last two issues and couldn't find a thing.
tkjtkj
3 / 5 (2) Sep 10, 2012
We congratulate all involved with this feat .. Wonderful job!

The thing i cant grasp is this: If the Higgs Field is the thing that resists motion of a particle (ie, gives it mass), then how can we, in the same frame as any object, feel the object's weight while we hold it motionless in our hand? Is it because a different 'rule-book' is at work at the infinitesimile scale?

This (obviously!) non-physicist hungers to know ...
InterPur
1 / 5 (1) Sep 10, 2012
I wonder if Higgs will get a Nobel now?
El_Nose
4.6 / 5 (5) Sep 10, 2012
@tkjtkj --- that other force that allows you to feel its weight while it is in your hand is gravity it causes a downward force, which in turn is interpreted by your body as a resistance to the static force you are applying to your elbow to keep it at a set level. this torque that you feel is merely the lack of enough applied energy on your part to apply enough upwards force to account for your arm and the newly applied rock. :-)

so often the little things are overlooked
Sonhouse
not rated yet Sep 10, 2012
Also, what gives the Higgs mass?
thermodynamics
3 / 5 (4) Sep 10, 2012
Also, what gives the Higgs mass?


The Higgs interacts with itself/field and confers mass on all Higgs particles.
krundoloss
3 / 5 (3) Sep 10, 2012
Lets not forget the contributions of Sheldon Cooper on the Big Bang Theory Show. Hes always talking about the Higgs Boson. Just kidding. I am glad they have found this particle that creates mass, it does seem strange that mass is not intrinsic to all matter, but requires a particle to add mass. And if you could extract that particle, would you be left with a massless particle? I think everything is a wave, why else would they be so difficult to pin down?
Deathclock
3.7 / 5 (7) Sep 10, 2012
but requires a particle to add mass. And if you could extract that particle, would you be left with a massless particle? I think everything is a wave, why else would they be so difficult to pin down?


Yep, there is no such thing as a "particle"... what we perceive as a particle is merely a region with a high energy density. Everything is energy, the universe is a sea of energy with non-uniform or anisotropic density. This non-uniformity gives rise to everything we know, and the law of entropy is merely the settling/reduction of this anisotropy over time.

At least that's my crazy idea...
sirchick
5 / 5 (1) Sep 10, 2012
I wonder if Higgs will get a Nobel now?


They talked about that here:
http://www.youtub...jPsnzH-c

An amazing quote is mentioned about the budget of science.
TaxPaid
not rated yet Sep 10, 2012
Can anyone tell me if it is the frequency of the Higgs field that imparts mass to other particals (fields) and if so does the mass field imparted to other particals cause the space fabric to be pulled towards the particals by the "Mass".
Jitterbewegung
not rated yet Sep 10, 2012
Hi tkjtkj.

I've been told the reason is that the Higgs gave some particles mass at the time of the big bang.

Once given this mass they can't loose it even when they fall into black holes.
Pressure2
2.3 / 5 (3) Sep 10, 2012
We congratulate all involved with this feat .. Wonderful job!

The thing i cant grasp is this: If the Higgs Field is the thing that resists motion of a particle (ie, gives it mass), then how can we, in the same frame as any object, feel the object's weight while we hold it motionless in our hand? Is it because a different 'rule-book' is at work at the infinitesimile scale?

This (obviously!) non-physicist hungers to know ...

Cick on my user name and you find a link that explains the origin of "weight" under gravity. Mass has a different orgin.
Jitterbewegung
not rated yet Sep 10, 2012
Ps. I'm agreeing with El_Nose and just adding the fact that you need a mass first to accelerate.

On a side note, does an accelerating mass curve the spacetime around itself more than a stationary mass of the same weight?
ziphead
1.6 / 5 (8) Sep 10, 2012
It is all very scripted, formal, ritual…

Reminiscent of 5000+ funny dressed Ancient Egyptian priests bowing to their Ra raising above the desert horizon.

How little things have changed.
Deathclock
3.7 / 5 (3) Sep 10, 2012
It is all very scripted, formal, ritual…

Reminiscent of 5000+ funny dressed Ancient Egyptian priests bowing to their Ra raising above the desert horizon.

How little things have changed.


What the HELL are you talking about? Nothing you've said makes any sense in reference to this article or the discussion going on regarding it.
ziphead
2 / 5 (8) Sep 11, 2012
It is all very scripted, formal, ritual…

Reminiscent of 5000+ funny dressed Ancient Egyptian priests bowing to their Ra raising above the desert horizon.

How little things have changed.


What the HELL are you talking about? Nothing you've said makes any sense in reference to this article or the discussion going on regarding it.


Oh, I think you know.

Bunch of dudes form this close circle and makes up a construct of funky symbols of ever increasing complexity that never leads to anything tangible.

And the current emperors can't complain as people would seem them as naked.

It does not stink of religious dogma at all.
MaxwellsDemon
2 / 5 (1) Sep 11, 2012
@Jitterbewegung
On a side note, does an accelerating mass curve the spacetime around itself more than a stationary mass of the same weight?

Yes, but not in the same way. Gravitational mass is analogous to electrical charge: just as a magnetic field appears around an electrical charge in motion, a gravitomagnetic field is created around a "mass charge" in motion. The same is true of rotation – the Earth possesses a very weak gravitomagnetic field which induces a very subtle force in the direction of rotation, perpendicular to the static acceleration toward the center of the Earth. This is also known as "frame dragging" and the "Lense-Thirring effect."
johanfprins
2.9 / 5 (7) Sep 11, 2012
Oh, I think you know.

Bunch of dudes form this close circle and makes up a construct of funky symbols of ever increasing complexity that never leads to anything tangible.

And the current emperors can't complain as people would see them as naked.

Very well stated ziphead: There is no proof whatsoever that the Higgs boson has been found. All they found is an excitation within the mass-energy region where their WRONG RENORMALISED model predicts that a Higgs boson should be. To hype up everybody that this is the greatest discovery ever, is the most dishonest physics-claim EVER in history of science.

These people should be ashamed of themselves since this is NOT like real physicists are supposed to act: But are there still REAL physicists alive at present?
Anda
2.4 / 5 (5) Sep 11, 2012
Fuck all these fucking articles and comments.
As now nothing is confirmed, just another particle found.
I'll keep waiting for confirmation that really it is the Higgs boson, a particle that gives mass to the rest.
Anda
2.4 / 5 (5) Sep 11, 2012
I'd like to know why there is no mention of a possible discovery of the Higgs boson in the Cern courier?
I've hunted through the last two issues and couldn't find a thing.

Because they didn't find it yet...
LarryD
5 / 5 (2) Sep 11, 2012
As an interestsed layman let's start at what is(probably) most people's introduction to Physics (or Chemistry). At the basic level little golf/billiad balls are at on micro level some whizzing around while others appear stationary in the centre (center). Those that whiz along combine with others that whiz around to form a 'bond' while yet others whiz off leaving behind + or - ions.. whatever. At the next level one gets told to forget all that because there are no 'balls' only energy probability density functions, & finding that 'bra' doesn't mean an item of clothing and 'kets' doesn't the mean flesh (held by the 'bra'?) No, they are derived from the word 'brackets'..what happened to 'c'?
Perhaps as we make bigger and more powerful machines we can strip off whatever amount of energy we choose from one system to make another system and each layer of energy added or extracted leaves behind something with a short life, isn't (e-)+(e+)= γ+γ etc examples? Or is it all balls of kets in bra?
johanfprins
2.3 / 5 (6) Sep 11, 2012
I'll keep waiting for confirmation that really it is the Higgs boson, a particle that gives mass to the rest.


How are they going to confirm this? Switch off the Higgs boson and see everything in the lab floating in the air? There is NO way to confirm this.

That is why it is so dishonet to even claim that IT MIGHT be the Higgs boson: Give us another $20 billion, and it might then even be more the Higgs boson! The world of physics has become mad! It resembles Orwell's Animal Farm: The mainstream in charge are the swine of physics.
johanfprins
2 / 5 (4) Sep 11, 2012
@Jitterbewegung
On a side note, does an accelerating mass curve the spacetime around itself more than a stationary mass of the same weight?

Yes, but not in the same way. Gravitational mass is analogous to electrical charge:


Are you sure? Can you prove experimentally that there is electric field-energy around a solitary electric charge? Please describe such an experiment to me.

I do not think there is ANY experimental proof possible that this is so: The calculation of an electric-field energy around a solitary charge is based on an assumption: Maybe this assumption is dead wrong. This will explain a lot; will it not?
Deathclock
3 / 5 (2) Sep 11, 2012
There are some complete fucking nutballs that post here... an amazing discovery calls into question their crank ideas so they go on the all out defensive and deny deny deny wherever they are allowed to have a voice.
Deathclock
3 / 5 (2) Sep 11, 2012
These people should be ashamed of themselves since this is NOT like real physicists are supposed to act: But are there still REAL physicists alive at present?


REAL physicists work for CERN, REAL physicists work for Lawrence-Berkely, Argone, Sandia, Oak Ridge, and Fermilab...

Real physicists DO NOT post comments on physorg (generally).
johanfprins
1.8 / 5 (5) Sep 11, 2012
REAL physicists work for CERN, REAL physicists work for Lawrence-Berkely, Argone, Sandia, Oak Ridge, and Fermilab...


How do you know that one can still compare them to people like Faraday, Maxwell, Planck etc.? I do not think so. The last 100 years has dragged, especially mainstream theoretical physics, into the pitts.

Real physicists DO NOT post comments on physorg (generally).


So you acknowledge that YOU are not a real physicist. Since YOU are not a REAL physicist, why are YOU so arrogant to claim, right above, that you know who REAL physicists are?

I think that you are a typical mainstream physicist of the present time: Totally illogical and arrogant to boot!
johanfprins
2.8 / 5 (5) Sep 11, 2012
There are some complete fucking nutballs that post here... an amazing discovery calls into question their crank ideas so they go on the all out defensive and deny deny deny wherever they are allowed to have a voice.


How does the results at CERN "call into question" my ideas? I am just pointing out that they have NO PROOF whatsoever, and probably will NEVER have proof that will stand up to scrutiny (the type that one has in a court) that this blimp on their radar screens is responsible for mass-energy!

Just imagine a detective stating in court that he suspected that a criminal is hiding in the bush: He went into the bush and found a person there; and therefore this person must be the criminal he was looking for! LOL!!
Jitterbewegung
3 / 5 (2) Sep 11, 2012
Hi LarryD.

I think where they really need the bra and kets is over in weak measurement uncertainty thread;-)
Not to mention a before and after.
Deathclock
3.3 / 5 (4) Sep 11, 2012
I am just pointing out that they have NO PROOF whatsoever, and probably will NEVER have proof


The fact that you are even asking for proof tells me the quality of "scientist" that you are... science does not provide proof, it provides evidence. Proof of anything is fundamentally impossible given the basic tenets of epistemology.

Just imagine a detective stating in court that he suspected that a criminal is hiding in the bush


This is a stupid analogy. People and fundamental particles are nothing alike... courts do not require proof either, they require a "preponderance of the evidence" and "beyond reasonable doubt".

The REAL scientists are stating that this MAY be the Higgs but they need to do more work to increase their certainty. You are saying that this is absolutely not the Higgs. Between the two, you are the one being dogmatic, rigid, and irrational... not the REAL scientists.
johanfprins
2.6 / 5 (5) Sep 11, 2012
The fact that you are even asking for proof tells me the quality of "scientist" that you are... science does not provide proof, it provides evidence.
Oh oh! Playing with words!!
Proof of anything is fundamentally impossible given the basic tenets of epistemology.
Thus, if you measure the relationship between P V an T for a gas and plot it on a graph, it is not proof that there is a relationship between these parameters? Oh my! Oh my!

Just imagine a detective stating in court that he suspected that a criminal is hiding in the bush


This is a stupid analogy. People and fundamental particles are nothing alike... courts do not require proof either, they require a "preponderance of the evidence" and "beyond reasonable doubt".
Well let us apply the court rules to the "discovery of the Higgs boson". There is NO evidence in this measurement that the Higgs boson even exists. The Only evidence is that a higher-energy excitation was measured.
Jitterbewegung
not rated yet Sep 11, 2012
And it decayed into the right particles;-)
johanfprins
2.8 / 5 (5) Sep 11, 2012
The REAL scientists are stating that this MAY be the Higgs but they need to do more work to increase their certainty.
So why are they already celebrating as if it is the Higgs? I do not think this is indicative of being REAL scientists
You are saying that this is absolutely not the Higgs.
I did not!
Between the two, you are the one being dogmatic, rigid, and irrational... not the REAL scientists.
You are a liar!!! All I am pointing out is that there are other more logical explanations for mass and rest-mass energy: Obviously experiment must be the final arbiter AND therefore I am not yet celebrating like your REAL scientists are doing as if the Higgs boson has been found and if it has been proved that this blip is responsible for mass.

Personally I think the whole announcement has been a public relations excercise to get more money to waste at CERN. In other words it stinks to high heaven.
johanfprins
2.6 / 5 (5) Sep 11, 2012
And it decayed into the right particles;-)


Did they count all the "particles" into which it decayed. All excitions decay into lower-energy exitations which finally ends to be light-waves, proton-waves, electron-waves and neutrino-waves. This means nothing!

They must prove that this exciation causes the mass-energy in Nature. If they cannot prove this, it is a waste of money!
Jitterbewegung
not rated yet Sep 11, 2012
It must be useful for something even if it's Susy.

I don't get why they need a Tev now that they know it's 127Gev. Why not use exactly double that amont to create the particle pairs. That's how they do it for the electron positron pair production isn't it?
Urgelt
3.7 / 5 (3) Sep 11, 2012
thermodynamics wrote, "... what gives the Higgs mass? The Higgs interacts with itself/field and confers mass on all Higgs particles."

What we know is that if you break two protons in a spectacularly high-energy collision, energetic particles smaller than protons leave traces we can detect and measure, and one of those traces corresponds to the predicted Higgs energy content. Because E=MC2, the energy measurement can be expressed as a mass-equivalence. But that doesn't mean the Higgs Boson must experience drag against the Higgs Field. It might. But we don't know. No experiments have been conducted to show how the Higgs Field works on Higgs bosuns; there's no evidence.

We have more questions than answers about the Higgs Bosun. We don't know how fast it moves or how the Higgs Field works. Your certainty is unwarranted.
Pressure2
4.3 / 5 (3) Sep 11, 2012
There is also no direct evidence that a Higgs field can even give particles mass.
ziphead
2.8 / 5 (4) Sep 11, 2012
There are some complete fucking nutballs that post here... an amazing discovery calls into question their crank ideas so they go on the all out defensive and deny deny deny wherever they are allowed to have a voice.


All I am saying: it is good to have theory that is falsifiable. This qualitative property is necessary to render theory useful, but due to finiteness of our resources not sufficient. This minor point often gets forgotten.

Because, you see, there is such a thing as a cost of falsifiability of a particular theory.

Then there is also a rate of increase of such cost as new theories are developed.

And if you see this cost of falsifying theories in particular branch of physics increasing exponentially over short period of time, just what does that tell you?

You are a clever dude; you tell me?
dan42day
2.5 / 5 (6) Sep 11, 2012
Further work is being carried out to confirm whether the new particle is the famous Higgs, whose existence was theorised back in 1964 to explain why elementary particles obtain mass. Without the Higgs, atoms could not form, which means the physical Universe would not exist, say scientists.


So poor god has been busting his ass since 1964 to come up with something that looks enough like the Higgs boson to keep us from realizing that this is all just an illusion?
AmritSorli
1 / 5 (1) Sep 12, 2012
what is given mass to the Higgs boson ?
This is the fundamental question to be answered befor Higgs boson could be considered as a real physical particle which is giving mass to the other particles. I see this paper published too soon, would be better to wait few years more and have more data. According to my research mass of a given particle is originating from the diminished energy density of quantum vacuum. For example photon diminishess energy density of quantum vacuum according to the following equation: Energy density of QV:
((Planck mass X C2) - K.E. )) / Volume of Planck
where K.E. is kinetic energy of photon.
Paper on energy density of quantum vacuum generating maass will be published by the end of this year.
On the surface of a given stallar object energy density of quantum vacuum is following:
Planck energy density (mp x c2 / lp3) - ((M x C2) / V ))
where M is the mass of the object
and V is the volume of the object.

Jitterbewegung
3 / 5 (2) Sep 14, 2012
Update: It's taken them 3 months. The Cern courier has finally mentioned the Higgs in the September issue.
baudrunner
1 / 5 (1) Sep 15, 2012
Nothing really spectacular here. All they did was find what quantum theory, via Higgs, predicted at the appropriate energy input levels. All this does is confirm quantum theory, and at least that's something. But, they can continue to predict new particles to infinitude, only they'll never do the experiments because we can't build accelerators that big. All that rubbish about Higgs particle conferring mass is just speculation and everybody is running wild with it. We all know that mass is conferred on particles by motion and velocity. What Higgs proposes is the Higgs Field, actually the photon background, out of which virtual particles are spontaneously generated, and occasionally an actual electron-positron pair. Nothing I didn't already know (not sure about any of you guys out there).
Manhar
1 / 5 (1) Sep 18, 2012
I am engineer not a scientist. I go back to Einstein equation E=mc square. The equation tells me that mass can be converted to energy or energy can be converted to mass. It is famous " Universe is created from nothing, big bang theory" . I happen to read part of old book called Rig-Veda, (Mandlam-1, Suktam-129); Nasdiyam suktam also said similar thing. I am not confused but I believe that in beginning of universe energy manifested into material and at the end of universe, material will manifest back into energy. End of universe is not easy to digest but think for awhile that every beginning has end. In short I think Higgs is produced by conversion of energy.
higgs_boson
1 / 5 (1) Sep 18, 2012
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johanfprins
1 / 5 (1) Sep 19, 2012
In order to prove that the excitation, which they have measured at the LHC, IS the Higgs boson, with the predicted properties of the Higgs boson, these Orwellian swine must first prove experimentally that this excitation does bestow rest-mass on ALL the other excitations that they have discovered to date.

They cannot, and never will be able to do such an experiment. The concept of a Higgs boson is thus not falsifiable, and will forever remain pure speculation.

In either case, the Higgs boson is NOT required to explain the origin of rest-mass. Newton already defined rest-mass in the 17th century and finally, Einstein explained where it comes from when he postulated in 1905 that the speed of a light-wave is the same relative to all inertial reference-frames.

The EM energy of matter-wave moves with a speed less than c. There is thus an unique inertial reference-frame within which a matter-wave is stationary: Its stationary EM wave-energy is its rest-mass. QED!