Israeli archeologists find rare stone age figures

Aug 29, 2012
This undated image made available by Israel Antiquities Authority on Wednesday Aug. 29, 2012 shows a rare stone age figurine that was found in digs last week prior to the widening of a major highway that connects Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. (AP Photo/Yael Yolovitch, Israel Antiquities Authority)

(AP)—Israel's Antiquities Authority says archeologists have unearthed two 9,500-year-old figurines near Jerusalem that help shed light on religion and society during the stone age.

This undated image made available by Israel Antiquities Authority on Wednesday Aug. 29, 2012 shows a rare stone age figurine that was found in digs last week prior to the widening of a major highway that connects Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. (AP Photo/Yael Yolovitch, Israel Antiquities Authority)

It says unearthed the two rare figurines last week in Tel Motza between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv during a dig ahead of the expansion of a major highway in the area.

One of the objects is shaped like a ram and made of limestone. The other depicts an ox and is made of dolomite. Both are 15 centimeters (5.9 inches) long.

Wednesday's statement says the figurines could have been either good luck hunting icons or a representation of the animal's .

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Twin
1 / 5 (3) Aug 29, 2012
Or -- maybe someone found a stone that looked a little like a ram and decided to finish it out. What other artifacts or associations suggest luck or domestication?
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.6 / 5 (33) Aug 29, 2012
Or -- maybe someone found a stone that looked a little like a ram and decided to finish it out. What other artifacts or associations suggest luck or domestication?
Or - perhaps someone wanted to carve a ram or an ox and so looked for stones which were already close enough.

Whats your point?
Twin
2.6 / 5 (5) Aug 29, 2012
My point is that the authors have no idea what these items were used for. It seems to me that suggested uses should result from some sort of evidence.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.7 / 5 (35) Aug 29, 2012
My point is that the authors have no idea what these items were used for. It seems to me that suggested uses should result from some sort of evidence.
I suppose they were speculating based on evidence from similar objects found in similar locations, whose use they are familiar with, seeing as they are educated and experienced in the subject.

Are you?
KinKAF
3.4 / 5 (5) Aug 29, 2012
Let me see if I have this right. Because these were found in what is now known as Israel, these items may have "religious" significance ? Absolute crap and nothing more than a pathetic attempt by a dying cult maintain significance. Next they'll be claiming these were (possibly) toys given to Abraham's children, or relics from Noah's family.
jerryd
5 / 5 (4) Aug 29, 2012

A case in point is the shell mounds here in Fla that were suppose to be for the chief/priests/religon when they really were just raised to above the tree line to get into the breeze to cool off and blow away the mosquitos.
kochevnik
2.3 / 5 (9) Aug 29, 2012
From the net:
"In Egyptian mythology, Amun is the ram with extremely curved horns; ram signifies fertility, as symbolized by ram's great proactive and fertile energy! Legend says that pharaohs always liked to call themselves as "beloved of Amun", meaning that they were the real representatives of the god of fertility. As a pharaoh was the "Son of Ra", it was natural to call the god Amun as the father of the Monarch. Amun was the god of the Thebal capital and as a result, he was so successful in attaining the status of the supreme god of the whole kingdom. The almighty god Amun personifies the Sun God and the Sun is the symbol of birth and energy."

Hopefully they will find a stone penis so the Abrahamic religionists can be assured their theology rests upon "solid" foundations.
Birger
5 / 5 (2) Aug 30, 2012
The "ram" might also be interpreded as a creature with curled tentacles resting on an underwater cliff in R'lyeh, thus "proving" H. P. Lovecraft right :-)
antialias_physorg
4 / 5 (4) Aug 30, 2012
Whenever they say something about "that help shed light on religion and society during the stone age..." I always think: "...or someone stone age person got bored on long winter nights and just started carving something into stone for the fun of it - or as a plaything for his/her kids so they would be occupied and stop pestering the adults."

It seems to me the latter is a MUCH more frequent occurence than making stuff for religious ceremonies - and consequently we should find MUCH more of that type of stuff.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.7 / 5 (30) Aug 30, 2012
Whenever they say something about "that help shed light on religion and society during the stone age..." I always think: "...or someone stone age person got bored on long winter nights and just started carving something into stone for the fun of it - or as a plaything for his/her kids so they would be occupied and stop pestering the adults."
I'm just guessing here (like you) that the researchers were drawing on a knowlege base which told them that 1) most people were religious at that time upon pain of death, 2) the vast majority of similar objects found were obviously related to religion, and 3) rams and oxen played significant roles in the religions they knew were in existence at the time.

I would tend to assume these things rather than the idea that people were wasting their time carving graven images.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.7 / 5 (30) Aug 30, 2012
It seems to me the latter is a MUCH more frequent occurence than making stuff for religious ceremonies - and consequently we should find MUCH more of that type of stuff.
I am also guessing here (like you) that religious talismans such as fertility figures and sacred animals make up the bulk of objects found. As kochevnik implied. I do know that the bull was religious, being regarded as a precursor to Jesus.
antialias_physorg
4.4 / 5 (7) Aug 30, 2012
We have no clue whether stone age people were religious (or how much time per day they spent in religious observances). But throughout recorded history the amount of time spent on religious observances as opposed to "just living your life" has been rather small. I find no reason to believe that was otherwise before people started writing records (or that it suddenly changed when record keeping started up).
People do have time to themselves (or had timeouts when they had to take shelter from inclement conditions or it just got dark outside). People did have children for which they cared. And I'm pretty certain they did stuff with their time other than go "ugh" at each other.
kochevnik
3.3 / 5 (7) Aug 30, 2012
I would tend to assume these things rather than the idea that people were wasting their time carving graven images.
They had A LOT of time to kill back then. Graven images were the comic books of the time.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (25) Aug 30, 2012
We have no clue whether stone age people were religious
Sure we do, per the article and this:
http://en.wikiped...religion

-We also have significant evidence indicating that antialias would rather make stuff up than LOOK stuff up. If you have any contrary evidence you are welcome to present it.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (24) Aug 30, 2012
I would tend to assume these things rather than the idea that people were wasting their time carving graven images.
They had A LOT of time to kill back then. Graven images were the comic books of the time.
Yeah and carving little 'hellboy' figurines in the middle ages would have gotten you burned at the stake.
antialias_physorg
4 / 5 (4) Aug 30, 2012
I didn't mean to infer that religion or ritual didn't exist back then.
I'm arguing that people didn't go around thinking "religion, religion, religion" 24/7 and that not everything we find must therefore automatically have religious significance.

A stone that looks like a ram and one that looks like...whatever (a pig?)? Why should that be religious? Looks more like instructional toys.

As for the Willendorf Venus - that might just be paleolithic porn.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.7 / 5 (26) Aug 30, 2012
I'm arguing that people didn't go around thinking "religion, religion, religion" 24/7 and that not everything we find must therefore automatically have religious significance.
But if the experts, who are more aware than we are of the the nature of 1000s of these kinds of objects through the ages, tell us that they are religious then I personally would tend to agree with them.
A stone that looks like a ram and one that looks like...whatever (a pig?)? Why should that be religious? Looks more like instructional toys.
"Wednesday's statement says the figurines could have been either good luck hunting icons" good luck = religion
Estevan57
1.8 / 5 (29) Aug 30, 2012
By your logic, Otto a rabbits foot on a hunters keychain makes him automatically religious? Not hardly.
kochevnik
2.5 / 5 (11) Aug 30, 2012
By your logic, Otto a rabbits foot on a hunters keychain makes him automatically religious? Not hardly.
As you can see in the foto the tightly curled horns are depicted, which is a symbol of fertility. Abrahamic religions sprung from the Amun-Ra fertility cult as I explained above. Fertility and good luck were metaphors. Only when a new retarded generation arose did the concept of Amun's fertility fatherhood become fused with his obsequiousness to forge monotheism. From monotheism the religious found a "logic" to kill others, as their being only one god Amun-Ra any heretics were deviant animals.

Modern religion is about murdering and enslaving those who don't worship YOUR Amun-Ra flavor.
kochevnik
1 / 5 (5) Aug 30, 2012
Should be 'ubiquity' not 'obsequiousness' in prior post
Otto_the_Magnificent
3.1 / 5 (19) Aug 30, 2012
By your logic, Otto a rabbits foot on a hunters keychain makes him automatically religious? Not hardly.
Your perception of religion is stunted. Wishing and talismans with supernatural powers are at the core of the religious impulse. How do you know that, had not the meme ever been discovered, we would instinctively know to depend on our senses and our intellect and not our imaginations, to inform us about the world? How do you know that, had not alcohol ever been invented, we would not want to get drunk?

Religions offer absolutely nothing besides wish-granting. The biggest wish they uniformly claim to be able to grant, is delivery from death. The same thing we wish for as we squeeze that rabbits foot. Even the rabbit knew better than to pray for salvation.

By the way otto, why dont you leave the poor old geezer alone? He is probably not your beloved ritchieguy and you have better things to do with your time dont you?
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (24) Aug 30, 2012
By the way otto, why dont you leave the poor old geezer alone? He is probably not your beloved ritchieguy and you have better things to do with your time dont you?
No way jose. Hey did you know that vendicar was scott nudds? Pussy said so.
Estevan57
1.7 / 5 (27) Aug 30, 2012
Direct quotes from the scientists that made the discovery:
"Dr. Khalaily adds, "It is known that hunting was the major activity in this period. Presumably, the figurines served as good-luck statues for ensuring the success of the hunt and might have been the focus of a traditional ceremony the hunters performed before going out into the field to pursue their prey". Another theory presented by archaeologist Anna Eirikh, his research partner, links the figurines from Moza to the process of animal domestication – such as the wild bovine and different species of wild goat."
Even they are undecided. Your own conclusions are probably suspect.
http://www.antiqu...e_id=#as

Spiro Agnew
Estevan57
1.7 / 5 (27) Aug 30, 2012
Look at this obvious symbol of fertility and religious fervor:
http://store51.co..._650.jpg

By wearing this talisman you become religious.

Millions of people wear the special garb and burn animal flesh in celebration of this obvious deity. Every Sunday. (Except bye week)

Go preach your religious crap to Pussycateyes, it bothers her.
Spiro Agnew. Spiro Agnew. Spiro Agnew.
antialias_physorg
4 / 5 (4) Aug 31, 2012
But if the experts, who are more aware than we are of the the nature of 1000s of these kinds of objects through the ages, tell us that they are religious then I personally would tend to agree with them.

Even among experts there is no consenus on the subject (even for such well known objects as the Willendorf Venus, which, if anything is more indicative of a religious artifact than the ones mentioned inthis article).
I really have a hard time seeing where such statements as
could have been either good luck hunting icons or a representation of the animal's domestication.

are much different from.
"I don't know what they were for"
The latter is just intelectually honest since there is no circumstantial evidence other than the proximity of a 'large building' that can be evaluated. (And if it's religious it should have been found IN the building - not near it)
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (25) Aug 31, 2012
Even among experts there is no consenus on the subject (even for such well known objects as the Willendorf Venus, which, if anything is more indicative of a religious artifact than the ones mentioned inthis article).
Yeah. Citation please or STFU.
Go preach your religious crap to Pussycateyes, it bothers her.
Funny but neither her nor her successor obamasocks are posting any more. The dynasty is marked by one being exposed as a drooling idiot and then being replaced by a similar drooling idiot, with some overlap to produce authenticity I suppose. You continue the tradition. You seemed to appear to defend pussy even though (or because?) she liked describing her sex life and posting gay porn links.

More proof.
Otto_the_Magnificent
3.2 / 5 (18) Aug 31, 2012
By the way otto, why dont you leave the poor old geezer alone? He is probably not your beloved ritchieguy and you have better things to do with your time dont you?
No way jose. Hey did you know that vendicar was scott nudds? Pussy said so.
Who is vendecard? And what does he have to do with me?

And I notice you bitchslapped me. Was that necessary?
panorama
not rated yet Aug 31, 2012
I haven't said it in a while, but I love every commentor on this site. Rational and irrational alike, it never fails for a midday pick me up.

On the subject of this article and the proceeding comments, I'd like pose this question. Do you think stone age people would take the time to carve a stone as a toy for children? I would think that if the time was invested to carve an animal or object in to stone it would have more importance than a toy. This is just complete conjecture obviously, but I'd like to know what anyone thinks.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (25) Aug 31, 2012
By the way otto, why dont you leave the poor old geezer alone? He is probably not your beloved ritchieguy and you have better things to do with your time dont you?
No way jose. Hey did you know that vendicar was scott nudds? Pussy said so.
Who is vendecard? And what does he have to do with me?

And I notice you bitchslapped me. Was that necessary?
I did not like your tone. You havent been around in awhile. If you had you would see that estevan appeared to replace pussycat/obamasocks.
Do you think stone age people would take the time to carve a stone as a toy for children?
My dad did not carve stones for me but we did do the pinewood derby.
panorama
1 / 5 (1) Aug 31, 2012
My dad did not carve stones for me but we did do the pinewood derby.

That's what I mean, if a toy was needed for a rainy period or whatever reason, wouldn't it be more ideal to carve something out of wood since it can be done within minutes to hours. While a stone carving would take at least hours, from that, inferring it had much more significance.
Otto_the_Magnificent
3.3 / 5 (23) Aug 31, 2012
Estevan is probably not pussy. Look - he provided a list of differences:
You might notice the differences between Pussycat and I:
Politics are totally polar opposites.
I enjoy colloqialisms, but am not chatty.
I rarely use all caps.
I usually use a persons username.
Have I used Blotto? Oddotard? Just rarely.
I tell only a little about my personal life.
We have been in arguments with each other!
We have disagreed on subjects and pursued conversations when others are gone from the comments section!
We appeared 6 month or so apart. etc.
??
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (25) Aug 31, 2012
if a toy was needed for a rainy period or whatever reason, wouldn't it be more ideal to carve something out of wood since it can be done within minutes to hours. While a stone carving would take at least hours, from that, inferring it had much more significance.
I tend to agree with you, but someone making arrowheads all day might turn a stone which looked like a bull, into a bull for fun. Limestone carves easy. Wood toys would have disappeared.

Of course the researchers would be aware of all this when they made their judgements about these objects.
Estevan is probably not pussy. Look - he provided a list of differences
Yeah a nice checklist of lessons learned from past criticism on how to create an alternate persona. The pussy dimwit is learning new skills. I never believed that someone could be as dumb as piro/ritchie/russkiye/pussy/obie unless it were a charicature. Unless they were TRYING to be that dumb. Spain is on the equator? Really??

Esteven is (a) pussy.
panorama
1 / 5 (1) Aug 31, 2012
I tend to agree with you, but someone making arrowheads all day might turn a stone which looked like a bull, into a bull for fun. Limestone carves easy.

Very true and also very plausible.
MrVibrating
4.2 / 5 (5) Sep 01, 2012
Only when a new retarded generation arose did the concept of Amun's fertility fatherhood become fused with his obsequiousness to forge monotheism.
Even substituting "ubiquity" for "obsequiousness" your statement makes little sense. FYI, old Abe, who left Babylon some time shortly after 1950 BC, was a dyed-in-the-wool henotheist, as were all his progeny up to Jeremiah - the first 'Jew' in any meaningful sense (presumably what you meant by "retarded" Abrahamic religion), circa 588 BC. Thus the roots of the tradition (ie. Babylonian Habiru) predate the Egyptian empire of the New Kingdom by centuries.

Your scholarship is about as sound as your apparent motivations, sir... Yes, strict monotheism is often more frictious than its polytheistic counterparts however it's also a logical conclusion of them, and a key step towards pantheism and ultimately atheism (per Spinoza (though presumably you find him "retarded" too, no doubt, and for much the same 'reasons'))...
MrVibrating
4.3 / 5 (6) Sep 01, 2012
...sorry, but to summarize, these finds predate Amun's presence in the region by over 7,000 years, at minimum, not to mention Habiru, much less Jewish, cultures of the middle-to-late Bronze Ages.
kochevnik
1.7 / 5 (6) Sep 01, 2012
Even substituting "ubiquity" for "obsequiousness" your statement makes little sense. FYI, old Abe, who left Babylon some time shortly after 1950 BC, was a dyed-in-the-wool henotheist
Hellenistic Jews sometimes reinterpreted Egyptian vignettes identifying Abel and Abraham as Osiris, Dokiel as Anubis, Enoch as Thoth, and Moses as Hermes. Isis became Eve, 'the mother of all living,' Atlas was said to be the same as Enoch, and Sarapis no one else but Joseph. Other Egyptian gods became Jewish angels in Rabbinic appropriations of elements from the Book of the Dead.
...sorry, but to summarize, these finds predate Amun's presence in the region by over 7,000 years
That only further validated Amun-Ra as god the father. Religion was about sex and fertility which does not change. The fertility of goats is an archetype like fear of snakes or spiders. Under the right conditions in Egypt the personification of fertility in an entity took root as Amun: later Amun-Ra god the father.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (25) Sep 01, 2012
A lot of this is explained in this very good video:
http://www.youtub...a_player

The great religions all show evidence of being in reality the evolution of ONE THING. Each draws from the earlier ones, adding improvements, discarding the superfluous, incorporating lessons learned.

The most recent, Islam, can be seen as a stripped-down version of the Zion/Xian precursor. Who needs a godman or a trinity to outgrow and overrun? These were only good for enticing animists and manichaeans anyways.

'I'd rather be good than original.' -I M Pei
MrVibrating
3.7 / 5 (6) Sep 02, 2012
@kochevnik - I'd like to see some source for that assertion. Such syncretisations were certainly casual to the Greeks and their Promethean view of their deities, elevating the human to the divine. To an orthodox monotheist however any such anthropomorphism is an arrogant sacrilege. Such views would always have been very much in the minority - evidently, inconsequentially so. Besides, as i've said, your contention is anachronistic - it could only be made retrospectively. Historically, no such lineage is possible because the Babylonian period precedes the New Kingdom by millenia. Thus the proposition that Yahweh descended from Amun-Ra is errant nonsense, as is the suggestion these finds could have anything to do with later Egyptian theology.

MrVibrating
3.4 / 5 (5) Sep 02, 2012
@TGoO - You've got to be kidding me? "Zeigeist" is an easy, wooly barrel of tosh for lazy ignoramuses, it is pseudotheology of the lowest order, drawing empty parallels between correlations without causations. Real history is much more detailed and convoluted - any such similarities emerge from more fundamental dynamics - there's no simple continuities as that mockumentary alludes to... It always depresses me that so many apparently thinking people give it such credence.

Godman and the Trinity were Gentile conflations of Jewish and Pagan beliefs, and Islam follows the same trend (of trying (and failing) to become more 'jewish'). But this is all by the by - point is, YES these items were found in Israel, but NO they're not related in any way to the much later Abrahamic or Egyptian traditions, and this article makes no suggestion to the contrary. Their sculptors were likely animists, just by default, but we've no way of knowing if these items had specific religious significance.
MrVibrating
3.4 / 5 (5) Sep 02, 2012
I mis-spoke:

...sorry, but to summarize, these finds predate Amun's presence in the region by over 7,000 years


should actually be 3-4,000 years, apologies, it's late... But still, the point stands.
kochevnik
1 / 5 (6) Sep 02, 2012
Thus the proposition that Yahweh descended from Amun-Ra is errant nonsense, as is the suggestion these finds could have anything to do with later Egyptian theology.
Hardly. Hebrews emerged from working class in Egypt and consequently adopted the gods of their rulers. Later when they gained power they ensconced Amun-Ra the father as a unique god and embraced monotheism. But monotheism only took hold in Rome when Constatine abolished all religions in 325AD and created the universal church, or catholic as they call themselves. Judaism also adopted the monotheist model while the tribes had many Canaanite gods prior, such as Moloch.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (25) Sep 02, 2012
Such syncretisations were certainly casual to the Greeks and their Promethean view of their deities, elevating the human to the divine. To an orthodox monotheist however any such anthropomorphism is an arrogant sacrilege. Such views would always have been very much in the minority
Nice big fat juicy words. What do they mean? Who knows?
Godman and the Trinity were Gentile conflations of Jewish and Pagan beliefs
-And I see you didn't watch the vid which explains these connections in detail. The godman figure is OLD. We can trace it's development from prehistory.
Hardly. Hebrews emerged from working class in Egypt and consequently adopted the gods of their rulers.
That theory doesn't hold up to archeology. The Hyksos connection is interesting but science tells us that Hebrews were canaanites who never left. There were never 2M Jews in goshen. No exodus, no joshuan rampage, no David/Solomon kingdoms, no diaspora. Indigenes adopted the religions of their many conquerors.
Sean_W
2.5 / 5 (8) Sep 02, 2012
Are they saying that that second stone is supposed to be an ox? Looks more like a potato if anyone asks me.
MrVibrating
4 / 5 (4) Sep 02, 2012
Hardly. Hebrews emerged from working class in Egypt and consequently adopted the gods of their rulers. Later when they gained power they ensconced Amun-Ra the father as a unique god and embraced monotheism. But monotheism only took hold in Rome when Constatine abolished all religions in 325AD and created the universal church, or catholic as they call themselves. Judaism also adopted the monotheist model while the tribes had many Canaanite gods prior, such as Moloch.

Hebrews descended from Babylonian Habiru (the root of "Hebrew"), not Egyptians. Again, the New Kingdom of Egypt emerged centuries after the Babylonian empire. You're either invoking retrocausal effect or time travel. And again, Judaic monotheism begins with Jeremiah in the 6th century BC, 600 years before the Roman empire.

And yes, Moloch was indeed one of the region's gods recognised by early Habiru henotheists, along with Marduk, El, Baal / Hamon etc. This lends nothing to your Egyptian hypothesis though.
MrVibrating
4 / 5 (4) Sep 02, 2012
Such syncretisations were certainly casual to the Greeks and their Promethean view of their deities, elevating the human to the divine. To an orthodox monotheist however any such anthropomorphism is an arrogant sacrilege. Such views would always have been very much in the minority
Nice big fat juicy words. What do they mean? Who knows?
Godman and the Trinity were Gentile conflations of Jewish and Pagan beliefs
-And I see you didn't watch the vid which explains these connections in detail. The godman figure is OLD. We can trace it's development from prehistory.
Syncretisation = conflating gods, Promethean = godman / mangod. Both words central to your thesis, yet unfamiliar cuz you learnt it from the YouTube equivalent of a Dan Brown novel, apparently.

I've watched Zeitgeist, and once was enough. Yes the same themes are recurrent, but independently. The causes are intrinsic to the nature of deities as anthropomorphic projections of our own consciousness.
MrVibrating
4.2 / 5 (5) Sep 02, 2012
Are they saying that that second stone is supposed to be an ox? Looks more like a potato if anyone asks me.

Heh i struggled to see an ox there too...

Maybe oxen emerged from potatoes some time in the last 9,500 years? Of course kochevnik here would probably have it the other way around but no beef, small potatoes. And hey they taste great together...
Schaps
5 / 5 (1) Sep 02, 2012
The disgusting quality of the comments posted here detract from an otherwise interesting article.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.7 / 5 (24) Sep 02, 2012
"Habiru or Apiru was the name given by various Sumerian, Egyptian, Akkadian, Hittite, Mitanni, and Ugaritic sources (dated, roughly, between 1800 BC and 1100 BC) to a group of people living as nomadic invaders in areas of the Fertile Crescent from Northeastern Mesopotamia and Iran to the borders of Egypt in Canaan. Depending on the source and epoch, these Habiru are variously described as nomadic or semi-nomadic, rebels, outlaws, raiders, mercenaries, and bowmen, servants, slaves, migrant laborers, etc."

"Since the discovery of the 2nd millennium inscriptions mentioning the Habiru there have been many theories linking these to the Hebrews of the Bible. However, some modern scholars conclude that "the plethora of attempts to relate apiru (Habiru) to the gentilic ibri are all nothing but wishful thinking."
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (25) Sep 02, 2012
Jewish genetics - Sephardim:

""The people closest to the Jews from a genetic point of view may be the Kurds, according to results of a new study at the Hebrew University. Scientists who participated in the research said the findings seem to indicate both peoples had common ancestors who lived in the northern half of the fertile crescent, where northern Iraq and Turkey are today. Some of them, it is assumed, wandered south in pre-historic times and settled on the eastern shores of the Mediterranean. Professor Ariella Oppenheim and Dr. Marina Feirman [sic: Faerman], who carried out the research at the Hebrew University, said they were surprised to find a closer genetic connection between the Jews and the populations of the fertile crescent than between the Jews and their Arab neighbors.."
Cont>
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (25) Sep 02, 2012
Syncretisation = conflating gods, Promethean = godman / mangod. Both words central to your thesis, yet unfamiliar cuz you learnt it from the YouTube equivalent of a Dan Brown novel, apparently.
Godman, mangod, which is the pretentious one? I like godman because I think it sounds more like a slur.

So are you saying that the godmen herakles and Gilgamesh, among many others, did not precede Jesus?
Vendicar_Decarian
not rated yet Sep 03, 2012
Stupid Israelis, claiming these artifacts are 9,500 years old.

According the the Bible, the earth is only 7,000 years old.

Don't they believe their own biblical history?
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.7 / 5 (29) Sep 03, 2012
Stupid Israelis, claiming these artifacts are 9,500 years old.

According the the Bible, the earth is only 7,000 years old.

Don't they believe their own biblical history?
You are being synchretismatistically unfair to Israelis. For instance shlomo sand of tel aviv university, would tell you that the idea of a single Jewish people with a common origin and heritage, is a zionist myth. And he is both a Jew, an Israeli, a freeking professor, and also French somehow.

http://www.youtub...a_player

-Perhaps you can find a better video of the man discussing this issue. If not you'll have to suffer through this one. Sorry no dancing pharaohs here. It's in a freeking lecture hall. Apparently he means business.
MrVibrating
4 / 5 (4) Sep 03, 2012
What's this got to do with the thread topic or kochevnik's claim that these finds support his assertion "Abrahamic religions sprung from the Amun-Ra fertility cult"..?

Yes it's largely a 'race' of half-breeds, being mater-familial or whatever the word is, and at times in the distant past was even proselytising, sometimes militantly so. So it's an X Chromosome and mtDNA thing. Recent studies have confirmed Jews from all over the world share common semitic genes... personally i'm an English/Irish atheist Roman Catholic Jew from French Protestant and Russian/Romanian stock. I still look more Sephardi than Ashkenazi so presumably they're quite dominant genes too. Any notion that we're some kind of inbred tribe of 'racially pure' descendants of Abraham and Sara is either religious tosh or, perhaps, a straw-man argument of certain Judeophobes.... (ahem)
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.4 / 5 (25) Sep 03, 2012
Yes it's largely a 'race' of half-breeds ...So it's an X Chromosome and mtDNA thing. Recent studies have confirmed Jews from all over the world share common semitic genes...
The term 'semitic' indicates a language group and has nothing to do with genes.

"In contrast, some recent genetic studies found that analysis of the DNA of Semitic-speaking peoples suggests that they have some common ancestry. Though no significant common mitochondrial results have been yielded..."

-This of course includes Jews. And because of the political nature of a Jewish homeland, genetic studies are suspect as dr Sand points out.
or, perhaps, a straw-man argument of certain Judeophobes.... (ahem)
You mean like dr Sand the Jew/Israeli/French professor guy from tel aviv university? It is pretty clear he doesn't think much of zionists who have thoroughly trashed Jewish history in order to justify the homeland myth. According to him (and many others) that is.
kochevnik
1 / 5 (6) Sep 03, 2012
Iz got them there semite genes. Thez ain't no regular Arab semite genes thez is them 100% kosher semite genes LOL

This is an interesting collection of genetic studies
Damn how to you find time to read all that? I've read a page of partial differential equations that was clearer than that.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.7 / 5 (24) Sep 03, 2012
This is an interesting collection of genetic studies;
http://www.khazar...ews.html

-Sorry no dancing pharaohs-

I haven't had time to digest it all. Later studies seem to stress the Ashkenazi connection to the levant but the earlier studies do not. This could be better data, or a resurgence of politicization. War is on the horizon you know-

Speaking of pharaohs -they were godmen as well, and predate Jesus. Who predated robin hood and kal-el and chuck Norris.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.7 / 5 (28) Sep 03, 2012
Damn how to you find time to read all that? I've read a page of partial differential equations that was clearer than that.
Well you skip to where it says 'in conclusion' or 'in other words' or 'in summation' and if need be you do a little more digging up above. And you look at who wrote it and where and when. You cross-check among papers for corroboration and conflict. Or maybe you give up and search similar stuff in wiki.
MrVibrating
3.7 / 5 (3) Sep 04, 2012
Iz got them there semite genes. Thez ain't no regular Arab semite genes thez is them 100% kosher semite genes LOL

But you said Jews emerged from ancient Egyptians - and they weren't Arabs! So what are we, Arab or Egyptian? Make your mind up..
MrVibrating
3.7 / 5 (3) Sep 04, 2012
@Otto - so Jews don't exist, and historical Israel is a myth? What, everyone's accounts of it - the Romans, Greeks, Egyptians Persians etc. etc. all disproved on the back of a couple of YT vids?

Wish we'd had YT back in the 30s, could've saved a lot of grief eh..

What about ethnic Britons - the popular consensus here ATM is much the same - that we're a nation of mongrels and always have been - anyone mentioning the term "ethnic English" on a radio phone-in is liable to be cut off mid-sentence, and ridiculed for their 'far-right views'... as an Englishman, albeit a slightly off-white one, i find this an egregiously racist sentiment, wiping out an entire people at the stroke of a pen. Deny the existence of ethnic Scots or Welsh and you'd be a racist, but if you DON'T deny the existence of an historical English ethnicity you're also a racist. Yet this sentiment comes FROM THE ENGLISH. Does its popularity amongst its own targets make it any less false, or ugly?
MrVibrating
3.7 / 5 (3) Sep 04, 2012
The term 'semitic' indicates a language group and has nothing to do with genes.
I do apologise, my bad, so 'anti-semites' are just language fascists then? Still, FWIW i meant Eastern Mediterranean semitic genes, rather than, say, umm, the Scandinavian / Bengali or whatever semites you're always (presumably) hearing about...
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (25) Sep 04, 2012
what are we, Arab or Egyptian?
Various genetic studies say you (many of you) are most closely related to Kurds.
What, everyone's accounts of it - the Romans, Greeks, Egyptians Persians etc. etc. all disproved on the back of a couple of YT vids?
YT - young Turks? Did you watch the shlomo sand lecture? He touched on some major points which are elucidated in his book. Points which have been proposed by many others based upon obvious evidence, from the titus' arch to the location and timing of the Mishnah.

The diaspora was an impossibility, for instance. Romans indeed had a problem with Jewish proselytism and colonization around the Mediterranean, because the Jewish religion was a breakthrough in so many ways. Rome fought wars for gens because of it. And is it too much to speculate that xianity was restructured in part as a backfire against this?

You may be surprised to learn just how little of your 'history' existed 200 years ago. Joshua never existed - we know that now.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.6 / 5 (27) Sep 04, 2012
I do apologise, my bad, so 'anti-semites' are just language fascists then? Still, FWIW i meant Eastern Mediterranean semitic genes
There are no Semitic genes. There are Semitic peoples from many different origins, united principally by language. Look it up.

"The word "Semitic" is an adjective derived from Shem, one of the three sons of Noah in the Bible"

-And as we now know there was no Noah, no flood, and thus no Shem, the idea that Semites as a group were descended from him must be discarded.
kochevnik
1 / 5 (4) Sep 05, 2012
New article documents that Amun Ra and his father Aten were the origin of monotheism. Tutankhamun's death and the birth of monotheism http://www.newsci...ism.html

Religion began as a fertility cult. The coiled horns of the goat above symbolize supernatural fertility. Aten created the world by masturbating. The Abrahamic religions use phallic gestures in their ceremonies. The goat or ram became associated with Satan in christianity to disavow the origins of it's goat god Amun-Ra.
TheOtherGhost ofOtto
2.6 / 5 (15) Sep 05, 2012
kochevnik and Oddo certainly don't let a few facts get in the way of a good anti religious masturbation. Spiro Agnew. Begin rant...now.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.7 / 5 (24) Sep 06, 2012
kochevnik and Oddo certainly don't let a few facts get in the way of a good anti religious masturbation. Spiro Agnew. Begin rant...now.
Hello little bug-

So we've established that all your sockpuppets are one person - you. Too bad not one of them ever had anything worthwhile to contribute. Except a nice example of sickness and impotence combined, which is informative.

Scientists know how to learn from pustules and infestations. But you really should be in a clinic somewhere. Hey maybe you are? Pussycat was a fake nurse in an imaginary psycho ward wasn't she?
kochevnik
1.8 / 5 (5) Sep 06, 2012
kochevnik and Oddo certainly don't let a few facts get in the way of a good anti religious masturbation. Spiro Agnew. Begin rant...now.
Atun masturbating created the known universe. Atheists are not the people who erected huge stone penises and vaginas around the world. Nor do we raise our hands to stroke the penis rays emanating from the sun, or give oral sex to our invisible friends in front of our children as christopaths, nor impose genital mutilation as a public display of child molestation.

Notice xtian sockpuppets are stalking me. Xtians resort to threats and violence because I reveal the origins of their retardation.
MrVibrating
3.7 / 5 (3) Sep 06, 2012
This kind of aggressive anti-theism is common amongst newly confirmed atheists, after a while though you get over it, mellow out and start to discover a new-found interest in religion, for what it tells us about history and ourselves, and for its own merits. You don't have to deny yourself this just because you've realised the gods of the ancients no longer cut the mustard.

If the Apollo 8 Genesis reading from lunar orbit doesn't choke you up, you've simply no sense of the profound. If Apollo had achieved nothing else, it would've been totally worthwhile. There's nothing else, certainly from scientific literature, they could've read out. As a species, we probably have nothing more poignant in print. There's certainly no other historical document of such antiquity and exquisite detail - a vivid window on the lives and minds of people whose plights we can still relate to, dating right back to the late Bronze age - as the Bible.. even if large parts are symbolic or borrowed...
TheOtherGhost ofOtto
2.8 / 5 (16) Sep 06, 2012
Interesting point MrVibrating. The recent death of Neal Armstrong reminded me that the first meal taken on the moon was a communion wine and bread. (By Buzz Aldrin) That in itself shows that the union of religious and scientific thought can acheive the greatest of results for mankind.
The extremists of both science and religion will be locked in an eternal shouting match while the rest of humanity shakes its head.
Begin rant now. (Not MrVibrating)
MrVibrating
4 / 5 (4) Sep 06, 2012
...it's part historical, part allegorical, yet it was the first book to go into print, and the first to be broadcast from another world, for good reason... Nietzsche was wrong; one's sense of the divine is simply enhanced by scientific progress...
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.2 / 5 (22) Sep 07, 2012
This kind of aggressive anti-theism is common amongst newly confirmed atheists, after a while though you get over it, mellow out and start to discover a new-found interest in religion
A sucker born every minute. The god meme is as compelling as any drug. Just because people are continually falling for it, doesn't make it any more real, or honest, or true. Or safe.
Nietzsche was wrong; one's sense of the divine is simply enhanced by scientific progress...
Religionist shysters learned how to push your thrill button for fun and profit ages ago. They have only gotten better at it. Why let them use you?
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.3 / 5 (23) Sep 07, 2012
'When I think of you I touch myself...'
http://en.wikiped...t_Teresa
http://www.youtub...a_player
panorama
2.6 / 5 (5) Sep 07, 2012
'When I think of you I touch myself...'
http://en.wikiped...t_Teresa
http://www.youtub...a_player

I'm going to drink a nice frosty beer in your honor tonight Otto. If not for the simple fact that I love the Divinyls and your reference.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.2 / 5 (22) Sep 07, 2012
Interesting point MrVibrating. The recent death of Neal Armstrong reminded me that the first meal taken on the moon was a communion wine and bread. (By Buzz Aldrin) That in itself shows that the union of religious and scientific thought can acheive the greatest of results for mankind.
The extremists of both science and religion will be locked in an eternal shouting match while the rest of humanity shakes its head.
Begin rant now. (Not MrVibrating)
Just quietly exposing your typical ignorance...

"The first meal on the moon was eaten by American astronauts Neil A. Armstrong (b. 1930) and Edwin E. Aldrin, Jr. (b. 1930). The two astronauts ate four bacon squares, three sugar cookies, peaches, pineapple-grapefruit drink and coffee before their historic moonwalk on July 20, 1969."

-You didnt think anyone would actually look this up? Dumbass?
TheOtherGhost ofOtto
2.3 / 5 (12) Sep 07, 2012
This kind of aggressive anti-theism is common amongst newly confirmed atheists, after a while though you get over it, mellow out and start to discover a new-found interest in religion, for what it tells us about history and ourselves, and for its own merits. You don't have to deny yourself this just because you've realised the gods of the ancients no longer cut the mustard.


And Otto exactly proves your point...
http://www.snopes...nion.asp]http://en.wikiped...pollo_11[/url]

Perhaps your source only includes the first meal eaten by both astronauts, DUMBASS.
You are such an ass, and no ref. for YOUR source either.
Nice try Otto. I like the Divinyls too. Spiro Agnew.
TheOtherGhost ofOtto
2 / 5 (12) Sep 07, 2012
Of course I thought you would look this up Otto. I didn't think you would take the first entry on Google though, considering it didn't really apply. Doh.
Your eagerness to expose and degrade religion or tolerance for religion, or even discussion of religion, or even thought of religion, make you irrational to the point of COMEDY. Your complaint against religion is that it is unproven and causes wars, warts, etc. Yet when a discussion appears you go all incoheRANT. Yes I spelled it that way on purpose.
The death of your mother has harmed you greatly, perhaps some counceling is in order.
By the way, I am not religious, but am disgusted by the way you respond and flood posts with crap.

http://newsweek.w...oon.html

http://www.theatl.../259826/

Spiro Agnew, Ashtray mouth.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (24) Sep 07, 2012
"As we remember the first men on the moon, let's not forget the first supper on the moon -- the Lord's Supper, served and received by an elder in the Presbyterian Church, Apollo 11 astronaut Eugene 'Buzz' Aldrin."

-Well that wasn't a meal was it? It was one of those ritualistic cannibalism things. A meal provides nourishment. Religion robs us if it. And GOOGLE confirmed it.
By the way, I am not religious
But you ARE a confirmed liar and so you are probably lying about this.
but am disgusted by the way you respond and flood posts with crap.
Many people would disagree. But really, who cares? Why don't you go uprate yourself.
TheOtherGhost ofOtto
2.6 / 5 (15) Sep 08, 2012
Don't you just hate it when you're wrong Otto?
Ritualistic or canibalistic, still a meal. You can call it shit, but you're still wrongo.
Your ignorance is typical though, too much hate dulls your brain.
I looked up some old posts and found who Ritchie was. Not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
Kind of funny the way you said he thinks Spain is on the equator. He didn't say that at all and you misquote him to put him down. That and the sorghum thing are hilarious.
Tsk Tsk What would your momma say? She would say "Spiro Agnew sonny, Spiro Agnew".
Does it bother you when Jews win SO many Nobel prizes? I hope so. It seems to me like the silent unknown payback for the horseshit you spout about their religion. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Its just your nurture. Spiro Agnew.
By the way its still Estevan, not anyone else. You are too stupid to detect differences in writing styles. Moron.
I piss on your face...
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (24) Sep 08, 2012
Ritualistic or canibalistic, still a meal. You can call it shit
Ok it was shit. Superstition has no place in the space program.
but you're still wrong.
So what is the caloric and nutritional value of a communion wafer? If it had been an actual body part of Jesus THEN it would have been a meal. Even if it had been bread and gnosh that he passed around at his last meal, it would have been a meal. Right? Right.
Kind of funny the way you said he thinks Spain is on the equator. He didn't say that at all and you misquote him to put him down. That and the sorghum thing are hilarious.
Ahahaaa yeah me and 10 other people. That must've really pissed you off eh? It's funny how you defend your defunct suckpuppets. More evidence that you are they.

Oh hey esai? Making fun of someones dead parents is not a very respectable thing to do. Or is this sort of thing kosher in Estonia?
I piss on your face...
-But you DO seem to be getting a little desperate for material.
MrVibrating
2.3 / 5 (3) Sep 12, 2012
This kind of aggressive anti-theism is common amongst newly confirmed atheists, after a while though you get over it, mellow out and start to discover a new-found interest in religion
A sucker born every minute. The god meme is as compelling as any drug. Just because people are continually falling for it, doesn't make it any more real, or honest, or true. Or safe.
Nietzsche was wrong; one's sense of the divine is simply enhanced by scientific progress...
Religionist shysters learned how to push your thrill button for fun and profit ages ago. They have only gotten better at it. Why let them use you?
sorry forgot this thread but all i meant was that our modern concept of the divine, however figurative, is that much greater than that of our of our forefathers. Again, i say that as an atheist...