Science is 'girl thing', says Europe campaign

Jun 21, 2012
Girls explore a display at the Copernicus Science Centre in Warsaw in 2010. With few women in Europe taking up research jobs, a campaign launched Thursday by the EU executive seeks to convince teenagers that science is a "girl thing."

With few women in Europe taking up research jobs, a campaign launched Thursday by the EU executive seeks to convince teenagers that science is a "girl thing."

"Science does not just mean old men in white coats," said Research and Science Commissioner Maire Geoghegan-Quinn. "The under-representation of women in a sector so vital to our economy does not make sense at a time when Europe is fighting for more growth and jobs."

Women represent more than half the students across the 27-nation European Union and 45 per cent of all doctorates but account for only one third of career researchers, the said.

With the EU needing up to one million more researchers by 2020, the three-year campaign will seek to get interested in studying science, technology, engineering and maths.

A second phase will encourage female students to pursue scientific careers.

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sirchick
5 / 5 (4) Jun 21, 2012
Maybe a large percentage of girls just aren't interested, rather than "put off" thinking its for guys. In my days of school, a mere 5 years ago, there was a clear divide of what girls did to guys (with exceptions)... my computing class only had one girl.

I don't think that was because it was aimed at men, just girls were more into social studies... loads of girls did Sociology with only a few boys in those classes.

This surely suggests how different our brains are wired, neither is better than the other, just different.

Why can't they let girls learn what they want to learn instead of worrying about statistics on gender ratio's in jobs.
sigfpe
2 / 5 (3) Jun 21, 2012
> Why can't they let girls learn what they want to learn

It's explained in the article. The EU believes it needs a million more researchers. If women are an untapped resource where such researchers might be found, why not look there?
sirchick
5 / 5 (4) Jun 21, 2012
But again, they have all the opportunity to do it like men, they just prefer to do something else. In my country there is no disadvantage to girls in schools Infact they do better because men are slow to mature, they just happen to chose different subjects.

If they have no desire to do science, this won't change much.
DaFranker
1.7 / 5 (6) Jun 21, 2012
You fail to understand basic sociology, sirchick. If they are more "into" social studies and less interest in science, there is a reason. You propose a "brain wiring" reason. Clearly, this is arbitrary, as there is no study that even remotely suggests (to a reasonable degree of reliability) that the "brain wiring" differences between genders affects activity preferences. There is, however, a plethora, nay, an overwhelmingly spectacular amount of research that nontrivially indicates that activity preferences are directly caused by society and social bias.

According to public evidence, it is extremely more likely that girls prefer things other than science because they were taught to like other things and dislike science.
Terriva
5 / 5 (1) Jun 21, 2012
How many of you are girls?
Lex Talonis
1 / 5 (2) Jun 21, 2012
There is no science lessons in making sammiches, and there are no science courses on how to stay in the kitchen.

QED - Between Breeding and Feeding - Wimmins and Woymens and Womens, have no future outside the kitchen.
Terriva
4 / 5 (4) Jun 21, 2012
Interestingly nobody calls for more women in IT and between programmers, for example - although their numbers are even lower there.
theofish
1 / 5 (1) Jun 21, 2012
If 45% of doctoral students are women, and only 33% go into research, maybe the EU should make their appeal to those adult women instead of the teenage girls.
theofish
1 / 5 (1) Jun 21, 2012
Let me rephrase:
If 45% of doctoral students are women, and only 33% of researchers, maybe the EU should make their appeal to those adult women instead of the teenage girls.
PCB
not rated yet Jun 22, 2012
I noticed in school, virtually all girls follow the "queen bee"(s) around as a pack/herd; the "queen bee" types are virtually always primary Feeler personality trait types (as opposed to primary Logic). So, even though ~1/3 of females are primary Logic types, most will still prefer to follow the herd rather than venture away to try classes of interest to primary Logic types (with exception of the strongly independent minded MBTI:INTP types; see "Daria" the MTV series name and lead character name; unfortunately, only ~1 in 300 females are INTPs). Let us hope the sociology classes help students discover their personality trait type and thus their natural talents, leading to more interesting and fulfilling classes/careers.
Reference Book: Please Understand Me II (as in v2) by David Kersey.

Deathclock
3.5 / 5 (8) Jun 22, 2012
I'm a strong INTP... I'm not a girl though, too bad or I'd play with my boobs non-stop
TkClick
1 / 5 (2) Jun 22, 2012
If 45% of doctoral students are women, and only 33% of researchers, maybe the EU should make their appeal to those adult women instead of the teenage girls.
This is just the culprit here: when you have only limited budget for your lab and you want to hire a postdoc, then you have problem, when this postdoc is a women: when this women would get pregnant, then you will lose both your postdoc, both the time and money invested into his education. This is particularly problematic for highly qualified occupations, when the workers cannot be switched without many years standing training. Not to say, the women usually don't tend to technical disciplines - so if you seek for a physicist with interest about programming, then your chances decrease rapidly, if you will seek for a women at the same time. The tendency to maintain occupation quotas for women in science contradicts directly with trend to increase the effectiveness of scientific work and to reduce the investments into it.
antialias_physorg
3.7 / 5 (3) Jun 22, 2012
If 45% of doctoral students are women, and only 33% of researchers

It's still the case that women have babies and not men. And that it falls mostly to the women to take care of children and not the men (though this is slowly changing for the better).

In the physical sciences knowledge moves exceedingly fast. Dropping out of the loop for a few years is not an option. Most female researchers I know do not have children (actually all, with the exception of a two who are doing their PhD at the moment and each have one child).

After 5 years absence your knowledge is so hopelessly outdated that you may as well start fom scratch. It's really rare that you can jump back in after such a long time. Research is not like other jobs in that respect.

(For social sciences, psychology or stuff like geology/archaeology that might be different. But in biology, chemistry, electronics, biomedicine, physics, etc. it's definitely the case)
scilady
1 / 5 (1) Jun 22, 2012
Getting girls into the STEM fields is just a part of the problem. We are also not very good at keeping them there once we have spent time and money on their education. While the attrition rate of college graduates in STEM in the US is high across the board (58% of undergraduates with a degree in STEM are not working in a related field 10 years later) it is even worse for women with a 75% attrition rate. Women continue to comprise only 24% of the STEM workforce and this leakage is greatly due to outmoded workplace policies including wage disparities. Our potential for innovation and global competitiveness takes a devastating hit when we lose over 50% of the prospective STEM workforce due to preventable gender inequity.
antialias_physorg
3 / 5 (2) Jun 22, 2012
While there is still an income gap for women in STEM fields it isn't quite as bad as elsewhere.
According to this:
http://www.esa.do...8311.pdf

The income gap in STEM is 14% (as opposed to an average of 21% between women and men taking all types of jobs into account)

As bizarre as it sounds, but the lower income gap is currently probably more of a force driving women towards STEM-type jobs rather than away from them (aditionally STEM jobs pay higher, on average, anyhow. So there's no reason to go looknig for a job elsewhere because of that).
Sean_W
2.3 / 5 (3) Jun 22, 2012
I'm sure that portraying science as "a girl thing" won't put off boys, especially those from traditionalist cultures. Why not increase the number of homosexuals in the field with the slogan "Science: It's gayer than Christmas!"
Sean_W
5 / 5 (4) Jun 22, 2012
Will we be trying to shrink the gender gap in biology, nursing, sociology, psychology and other female dominated fields? Should we limit female entry as a percent of students or just send out the message that these fields are a guy thing? Those women we want in science need to come from the pool of young people who have university style academic aptitudes as opposed to people whith trades-like aptitudes (those trades also need more students in general and women in specific). So how does one go about convincing someone that the career path they may want to pursue should be redirect to one they didn't choose? Just keep reminding them that the collective good is more important than their liberty and that their choices are corrupted by the patriarchy so they should rethink them?
antialias_physorg
2.3 / 5 (3) Jun 22, 2012
So how does one go about convincing someone that the career path they may want to pursue should be redirect to one they didn't choose?

It's not so much about redirecting into something you don't want to do. It's more about giving women the confidence and the support to succeed in fields that they view (rightly or wrongly) as difficult to get into.

mena nd women are different. If nothing else then testosterone and oxytocin/estrogen levels are different. This does not mean that abilities are different, but e.g. testosterone makes one less self critical and more likely to attempt a task with an unknown outcome. Oxytocin on the other hand makes you more self critical. So for women - even those with the aptitude for such fields - making the jump is much harder (psychologically). We need to acknowledge this and give support to even the playing field.
PussyCat_Eyes
1.7 / 5 (12) Jun 22, 2012
Teenage girls and female undergrads in college are usually more involved in looking for a potential husband, the nicer looking, the better and the ones who had the best potential for success were sought after. In high school, I wanted to be one of the cheerleaders because all the jocks paid the most attention to them. I made it and I got my share of attention from the good looking guys with the brains. Other girls had to settle for the less attractive guys who were most interested in sports and not much else. It's a fact that most girls go in for a nursing career, secretarial, teaching or become mothers and wives. The girls who went in for science were most often plain looking, or very unattractive. I guess they had a lot less to distract them than the rest of us had. We were popular with the guys and some only wanted to be married and have kids. I wanted a career in nursing, so I studied hard in between dating. We were just more interested in boys than in science. Maybe we missed out.
Terriva
5 / 5 (3) Jun 23, 2012
The EU commercial was apparently withdrawn after widespread dismissal at Youtube. It's not surprising as it was apparently targeted to men instead of women.
A2G
3 / 5 (4) Jun 23, 2012
Why are so many organizations pushing women into things that they really don't want to do or are under qualified for.

I am a man and if you try and push me into ballet I am afraid that you would be wasting your time and be very unhappy with the results.

Ballet has it's place and it is not I place I should be in.

Women are great and have qualities and abilities that men don't and vice versa. Just let nature take it course with both and drop the agendas.

PussyCat_Eyes
1.8 / 5 (10) Jun 23, 2012
Terriva....your second link works. I thought it funny that the male researcher looks up from his microscope and stares at the young things with awfully long legs that are most likely c.g.
It is definitely geared toward men. It could even be considered sexist. The message is loud and clear. Ditzy girls wearing spandex are needed in laboratories, but not necessarily for the sake of science. LOL
There's probably a quota system that has to be satisfied.
Terriva
not rated yet Jun 23, 2012
with awfully long legs that are most likely c.g.
LOL, you should find some girl for yourself sometimes - the PO chat is not a real life...;-) BTW The first link doesn't work, as it had been autobanned with EU.
xen_uno
5 / 5 (1) Jun 23, 2012
The video should of included a short interview with Amy Mainzer of JPL. Smart, geeky, and gorgeous. Appealing to either sex.
PussyCat_Eyes
1.1 / 5 (8) Jun 23, 2012
Terriva....I AM a girl, dear...and I have a boyfriend. I know, I used the second link as I said already.
BTW...I have long legs too.
Terriva
not rated yet Jun 23, 2012
BTW...I have long legs too.
What's so awful about long legs, after then?
There's probably a quota system that has to be satisfied.
But do you realize, when some objective sex differences exist, then every quota system breaks the system of criterions, in which the people in science are hired and judged?
PussyCat_Eyes
1 / 5 (3) Jun 23, 2012
Nothing at all...in fact, to be a woman with long legs is a desirable trait. Lucky me. :)
With quota systems...less attention is paid to qualifications and merit...and more on how many posts can be filled with as many persons of intelligence and that is most important. BUT..the less intelligent ones will also fill space because the law requires it. Therefore, a certain amount of women MUST be hired for the jobs. The best ones get the highest salaries and best positions...but those who aren't as good must also be hired, especially if the quota is for minorities and/or handicapped.
In other words...the quota system makes it more difficult to hire the best and brightest. Maybe only a few b & b are found to fill the best posts, but possibly the greatest part of that job market may have to settle for those of lesser intelligence...as long as they fit the gender quota.
PussyCat_Eyes
1.3 / 5 (9) Jun 23, 2012
In the U.S. some time ago...don't know if it's still happening...let's say a young man and young woman fresh out of college and both have a doctorate which qualifies them both for a highly specialized job. Let's say the young man got a 4.0 gpa and the young lady has a 3.0 gpa. They are equal in everything else. If there are 2 positions open, then both of them should be hired. BUT with a quota system, if there is only ONE position open, it is most likely the girl who gets hired. WHY? It's the law. She might be on the job for 6 whole months, then gets pregnant and needs maternity leave. BY LAW, the firm MUST hold open that position for her return to work. Whereas, men don't get pregnant, but they're not considered a minority. In a lot of cases, women are considered a minority, and the law caters to us whether or not we qualify.
Personally, I never thought it was fair...but who am I?
Vendicar_Decarian
5 / 5 (1) Jun 24, 2012
Wake me up when science is a sexy, sexy, girl thing.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Jun 24, 2012
You are a whining known nothing nobody.

"Personally, I never thought it was fair...but who am I?" - PussyCatLies

Hasn't that been made abundantly clear to you already?

xen_uno
not rated yet Jun 24, 2012
Cat .. u can simplify by just saying affirmative action, which by definition isn't solely a black thing.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.6 / 5 (14) Jun 24, 2012
The girls who went in for science were most often plain looking, or very unattractive. I guess they had a lot less to distract them than the rest of us had. We were popular with the guys and some only wanted to be married and have kids....but who am I?
You are a dumbass in any gender.
WHY? It's the law.
This law does not exist and never did. Look it up.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (2) Jun 24, 2012
The girls who went in for science were most often plain looking, or very unattractive. I guess they had a lot less to distract them than the rest of us had.

Don't count on that. Intelligence is extremely sexy. Moreso the older you get.
PussyCat_Eyes
1 / 5 (3) Jun 24, 2012
You are a whining known nothing nobody.

"Personally, I never thought it was fair...but who am I?" - PussyCatLies

Hasn't that been made abundantly clear to you already?

- Vendicar_De Idiot

So, Vendicar is going back to being an idiot. I wasn't whining...I was talking to Terriva about conditions in the USA where I live. Seems more like it's YOU who is doing the whining. Why are you so concerned about Americans? I've read that you'll be arrested if you're caught entering the U.S.
Take care of your own country.
PussyCat_Eyes
1 / 5 (3) Jun 24, 2012
Cat .. u can simplify by just saying affirmative action, which by definition isn't solely a black thing.
- Xen_uno

Xen and Terriva...I wasn't alluding to AA being a black thing only. Color has nothing to do with intelligence, ability and common sense. The words seem to raise the hackles in some people who think that AA only concerns the hiring and educating of blacks and Hispanics. Even Asians and native Americans and the disabled are included in AA. But it is true that these people were given first preference over educated, intelligent, straight, White males. AA passed into Law and became a part of U.S. history.
I think it was a good idea, at first, because it gave those minorities who were intelligent, but due to circumstances could not get the chance for higher education and a great job. But there are only so many really intelligent people in the world, and corporations were forced to hire some who were not as good. Why? Because of color, gender, race or ethnicity, (contd)
PussyCat_Eyes
1 / 5 (3) Jun 24, 2012
(contd)
sexual orientation and disabilities.
So, corporations didn't always get the best and brightest to join the firm. As a result, depending on the situation, corporations fail unless they hunt for the best and brightest, and find lower "accommodations" for the least intelligent and motivated. It's a fact of life. Not everyone has the qualifications to work in a highly specialized job. But with the AA law, girls get the job while a more intelligent and highly motivated young man doesn't.
These are some of the reasons why the U.S. is failing financially and scholastically. It's a sad situation.
People in the U.S. don't want to face the facts. And because of it, our country is going down the tubes.
xen_uno
not rated yet Jun 24, 2012
Cat - "Xen and Terriva...I wasn't alluding to AA being a black thing only."

I know :) ... you were defining AA without just saying AA which would of saved yourself from alot of typing. AA can apply to any minority, not just blacks.

I for the record, do not believe in any form of AA. If you're not most qualified man/woman for the job, then your not getting that job. AA has no place in a democracy.
PussyCat_Eyes
1 / 5 (3) Jun 24, 2012
I think I may be one of the few American women who are more concerned about the fate of my country than the fate of Feminism. I look at Feminism as though it's some warlike tribe that's bent on destroying the American straight, White male, whether intelligent or not...and they have their own agenda which has been detected as the lesbian agenda. The org may not have started out that way, but it has been taken over by man-hating women and that's a fact.
How did this happen? Maybe it was because in earlier times, women were treated more as chattels or possessions by men, and such a movement grew out of that. Trust me, there are still brutish men who slap their woman around, but I think they are becoming fewer as men and women become more enlightened.
Women in science is a wonderful thing, but I think they are better off to become real scientists after they're had all the children they plan to have, so that they can devote all their time, or most of it, to science. But that's my opinion.
PussyCat_Eyes
1 / 5 (3) Jun 24, 2012
Cat - "Xen and Terriva...I wasn't alluding to AA being a black thing only."

I know :) ... you were defining AA without just saying AA which would of saved yourself from alot of typing. AA can apply to any minority, not just blacks.

I for the record, do not believe in any form of AA. If you're not most qualified man/woman for the job, then your not getting that job. AA has no place in a democracy.
- Xen_uno

Xen...in a qualifications-driven country, the pretense of handing over highly specialized jobs to the lesser qualified would never happen, except by accident or fraud. Even the lesser qualified is actually running my country, and there has been way too many mistakes, whether deliberate or not.
Well, it's not only in the U.S., but also in other countries where too many mistakes are made that are detrimental to the good of the country. It's abundantly clear that it's not merely AA that has caused it, but the fact that people will vote for the least qualified if they believe.
PussyCat_Eyes
1 / 5 (3) Jun 24, 2012
Here's the link to the Affirmative Action Law...for those who say that it never existed.

http://www.dol.go...eact.htm
Total equality is a myth, by the way, hard as it is to accept.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.2 / 5 (18) Jun 24, 2012
Here's the link to the Affirmative Action Law...for those who say that it never existed.

http://www.dol.go...eact.htm
Total equality is a myth, by the way, hard as it is to accept.
And if you actually read it you will see that there is nothing which requires employers to hire less-qualified women over more-qualified men. But I suppose that would be too much trouble for you?
Estevan57
1.9 / 5 (31) Jun 24, 2012
Affirmative Action has nothing whatsoever to do with "hiring quotas". It is all about who cannot be discriminated against.

Could someone provide a valid reputable link to a "hiring system" major corporation, small business, etc., that prefers slightly less qualfied women to men? Legally that is. The examples I have seen in the press have only been heresay and politically motivated by those interested in weakening the law. A simple name of a company will suffice.

As the father of a recently graduated biology major, (female, U of Oregon) there doesn't seem to be much in the way of incentives to go into research rather than the higher paying private sector jobs.

In my opinion the EU would be better served by efforts to attract doctorates into research rather than teen girls into the hard sciences.
PussyCat_Eyes
1 / 5 (5) Jun 24, 2012
@Esteven57.....there were hiring quotas at least at one time in the past and it very much had to do with the AA Law against discrimination. It you hired only young White males for your firm in the U.S., the EEOC and other gov agencies would come after you and tell you that you were discriminating against older white males, older and younger black males, White and black women and other races, and you were discriminating against the disabled and handicapped. Never mind that, for the most part, young men are more agile at climbing telephone poles and your business is in an all White town. You would be regarded, by Law, as discriminating of all others. So, in order to comply with the Law, you have to fire most of your White guys and hire a quota of, say, 2 women, 1 old man, 3 young and 1 black older man. Oh, and if an Asian family happened to move to your town and applied for a job, you have to hire them too.
Is it any wonder that so many private businesses went out of business?
PussyCat_Eyes
1 / 5 (6) Jun 24, 2012
Oh, and if you hire females, you would have to provide separate bathroom facilities and allow them time off for childbirth and maybe 6 months at home for nurturing, AND in all that time, you couldn't hire someone else on a permanent basis because she was liable to come back to work and you had to hold that job position open for her. Also, if you were forced to hire a non-English speaking person, you MIGHT have to hire an interpreter to work in the office to explain that person's human rights.
PussyCat_Eyes
1 / 5 (6) Jun 24, 2012
Estevan57...did you ever wonder WHY so many American big and small companies were hiring illegal Mexican immigrants before Immigration started cracking down on the hiring and sent those illegals back to Mexico? Think about it. (Of course, that's before Obama got into power and has given them amnesty).
PussyCat_Eyes
1 / 5 (6) Jun 24, 2012
Why are so many organizations pushing women into things that they really don't want to do or are under qualified for.

I am a man and if you try and push me into ballet I am afraid that you would be wasting your time and be very unhappy with the results.

Ballet has it's place and it is not I place I should be in.

Women are great and have qualities and abilities that men don't and vice versa. Just let nature take it course with both and drop the agendas.

- A2G

http://www.youtub...3OT3P30g

OK...How about THIS dancing?
:X
ziphead
2 / 5 (4) Jun 24, 2012
Estevan57...did you ever wonder WHY so many American big and small companies were hiring illegal Mexican immigrants before Immigration started cracking down on the hiring and sent those illegals back to Mexico? Think about it. (Of course, that's before Obama got into power and has given them amnesty).


How can anyone rant so much and yet say so little is beyond me.
Estevan57
1.7 / 5 (30) Jun 24, 2012
I believe I had asked for an example...

The AA doesn't require any specific ratio or quota of hiring minorities, it does however, require that the effort to hire them is made in earnest and that they are not discriminated against.

If there has been a case where persons have been fired from a company to make room to diversify please state it. Example please.

As a business owner that has had to be very careful about the legality of my own workers, I am VERY aware why others would hire illegals. Cheap labor is cheap labor, and false id is as easy as walking into a certain part of town, making a particular hand signal, smile for the camera, and paying the price.

"I believe in the idea of amnesty for those who have put down roots and lived here, even though sometime back they may have entered illegally." - Ronald Reagan, 1984 televised debate, also the president that signed the first "amnesty" law into effect in
1986.
PussyCat_Eyes
1 / 5 (5) Jun 24, 2012
Well, I enjoyed our discussion, Estevan57...but I will now take my cue from Mr. Ziphead and stop my ranting and not saying anything. Perhaps he can do a lot better.
TkClick
1 / 5 (1) Jun 25, 2012
..Color has nothing to do with intelligence, ability and common sense..
I'm slightly sceptical about it, because some differences are objective reality here: for example the white men can't jump, the yellow people cannot drink too much, etc.. But I do agree, the future of people is in narrow cooperation and balancing these differences whenever possible. But the application of racial or gender quotas principally contradicts and undermines the application of objective criteria for judging ability attributes of individuals - it replaces them with criteria based on attributes of some group (racial, gender, geopolitical, whatever). I firmly insist on it, because this is a bare fact. Just because I'm against every way of segregation: both positive, both negative one, I do believe, that the sociopolitical principles of modern society should be adjusted in such way, the rules based on gender of race should be eliminated in the maximal extent possible.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.5 / 5 (16) Jun 25, 2012
there were hiring quotas at least at one time in the past
No there weren't.
and it very much had to do with the AA Law against discrimination. It you ...and tell you that you were discriminating against older white males, older and younger black males, ..Never mind that, for the most part, young men are more agile at climbing telephone poles
You idiot.
nd your business is in an all White town. You would be regarded, by Law, as discriminating of all others. So, in order to comply with the Law, you have to fire most of your White guys and hire a quota of, 2 women, 1 old man, 3 young and 1 black older man. Oh, and if an Asian family happened to move to your town and applied for a job, you have to hire them too.
Is it any wonder that so many private businesses went out
This entire post is utter bullshit. No law ever required anyone to fire anyone to meet quotas you lying dimw
PussyCat_Eyes
1.8 / 5 (5) Jun 25, 2012
Yuppers....Bozo Blotto blows it out his azz again

http://en.wikiped...al_quota

Opponents of quotas object that one group is favored at the expense of another whenever a quota is invoked (i.e., 8 out of 10 available positions) rather than factors such as grade point averages or test scores. They argue that using quotas displaces individuals that would normally be favored based on their individual achievements. Opponents of racial quotas believe that qualifications should be the only determining factor when competing for a job or admission to a school. This brings about the problem called "reverse discrimination" which causes the majority and sometimes more qualified individuals to lose out to a minority.

And this: http://www.discri...-police/

Blotto is an idiot idiot idiot...but he thinks he's a scientist und der wunderkind of Phys.org...LOL
PussyCat_Eyes
1.8 / 5 (5) Jun 25, 2012
It's been a well-known fact in the U.S. that if a business needs only, say, 20 young men in all for the job and they happen to be White, the business owners will have to LET SOME OF THEM go to accommodate the newly hired who are of diverse ethnic, age, gender, etc. background. In particular, if the business doesn't have the money to pay 30 - 40 people and can only AFFORD TO PAY 20 workers in all, one or more White guys will be laid off or fired. This is fact....and no blowhard bozo like GhostofBlotto can change those facts.
PussyCat_Eyes
1.6 / 5 (7) Jun 25, 2012
Oh my....why, here's another one (gasp)
http://www.creato...gma.html
Read the comments also.
Estevan57
1.8 / 5 (30) Jun 26, 2012
Quotas are not legal in the United States. No employer, university, or other entity may create a set number required for each race.
http://en.wikiped...n#Quotas

If there has been a case where persons have been fired from a company to make room to diversify please state it. Example please.

PussyCat, this is (or was) a science site comment section and many people will read what you write. If you have an idea or point to make, give examples, or a reference. The endless ranting and raving between you and Otto annoy many more people than you may realize.
The same goes for Otto, who could tone it down also. Please read the comments guidelines, they make it better for all of us. Peace
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.1 / 5 (17) Jun 26, 2012
The same goes for Otto, who could tone it down also.
Sorry. But I cant leave lies like this alone:
It's been a well-known fact in the U.S. that if a business needs only, say, 20 young men in all for the job and they happen to be White, the business owners will have to LET SOME OF THEM go
and:
@Esteven57.....there were hiring quotas at least at one time in the past and it very much had to do with the AA Law against discrimination.
-Especially after an unending, unbroken succession of them. Stopping this is up to the mods, not me. I and others have the right and the responsibility to object to this sort of thing. This is not aether theory or electric universe, or repulsive neutrons or even creationism, which all elicit similar response. This is willful vandalism by an ignorant, malicious, 4chan, chatroom mentality.

You can certainly continue with your genteel reasoning. I and others tried this initially and it didnt work.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.5 / 5 (16) Jun 26, 2012
Oh my....why, here's another one (gasp)
http://www.creato...gma.html
Read the comments also.
This has nothing to do with your claims and you know it. More graffiti.
Terriva
3.7 / 5 (3) Jun 26, 2012
In accordance to recent study having children tends to slow the career progress of women physicists but not that of their male counterparts. To generate the data that produced this graph, a global survey analyzed responses from some 15 000 physicists to compare their career progress with that of their colleagues.
PussyCat_Eyes
1.7 / 5 (6) Jun 28, 2012
@Estevan57
The laying off or firing of white males to make room for diversity for the sake of compliance with the AA Law is not officially sanctioned by gov't, but it is happening, otherwise a risk of a fine being imposed is possibly the next step. This is fact, even if it's not publicized openly. If you read the comments in that one link by Dr. Thomas Sowell, at least 2 white males complain that they were laid off because they were white and not enough white males were on the list to get the ax. YOU might not have done it to YOUR employees because your business is already diversified ethnically. That means that, as a woman, I would have a better chance at being hired by you than a white male with the same qualifications because of your compliance with the AA Law. That's in my favor, so I'm not complaining.
PussyCat_Eyes
2.3 / 5 (3) Jun 28, 2012
Terriva....excellent link.
The thing that struck me most about the lesser number of women as physicists, is not that they're less qualified, but that the field is most often regarded as male dominated, and the occasional female in that field may be regarded as an oddball. That women scientists are most often the ones lacking in adequate equipment, funding, etc. is probably an unconscious bias toward them by male physicists who MAY feel that women don't belong in that field, particularly younger women of reproductive age. And, there is the issue of privacy, where women who are having their period may have to visit the bathroom a number of times more often than is customary.
There are other issues to be addressed, such as a mistake by a woman using expensive equipment may be blown up to bigger proportions than it would if a man makes the same mistake.
Archea
2.3 / 5 (3) Jun 28, 2012
Well, in another words the same job represents more stress for women than for men and you even get less from it. If we add the fact, that the women naturally tend to social rather than technical disciplines and the fact, they're less assertive, if not aggressive in collection of resources for further research, then I don't see too much reasons for why to force the women into activities, which they're not naturally interested about anyway.

But IMO the era of masculine brute force research is over and we will analyze the things more in their wider context. I would predict, that the character of mainstream science will change gradually and it will shift itself from technical, strictly deterministic approach to the holistic and pluralistic approach, which would be more accessible for mind of women.
Estevan57
1.7 / 5 (27) Jun 29, 2012
I still stand by my position that white males have not been fired to provide a more diversified workplace to avoid sanctions or other penalties. I have made a decent search for examples of this, but have found zippo.
Disgruntled worker comments in the OPINION piece written by Dr. Thomas Sowell, a conservative columnist, are hardly worth the electrons used to transmit them. My BS detector beeps loudly when "it goes on all the time" style comments are made with not a darn thing to back them up.
I don't usually get political on this site, but this sounds like a typical right wing style smear like those of Rush Limbaugh and others. Just close enough to being truth, it could happen, but hasn't actually been seen. Like Yeti or Sasquatch.
If there is such a case and I am wrong no biggie, I don't mind, but please give a real police report, civil or criminal court case, or other EVIDENCE of the claim. Don't assume my political bent by this, if you want to know, ask.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (2) Jun 29, 2012
I still stand by my position that white males have not been fired to provide a more diversified workplace to avoid sanctions or other penalties.

Why should they? Also there are other laws besides those geared towards creating more gender equality. You can't just be fired from your job because of something you have no power over (your gender).
I've seen numerous places that explicitly say intheir job descriptions that women fit for the job will be given preference all else being equal
(which is OK in my book, because in my experience there is NEVER a case when you have two applications where 'all else is equal'. There's always some factor that makes you prefer one applicant over another which doesn't have anything to do with gender)
PussyCat_Eyes
1 / 5 (5) Jun 29, 2012
@Estevan57....
.I've already said that these cases are NOT publicized in the media. Do you honestly think that newspapers would carry the headlines that, "20 WHITE MALES LOSE THEIR JOBS TO 20 MINORITIES DUE TO AFFIRMATIVE ACTION AND THREAT OF HEAVY FINES"??

The gov't would deny any legal coercion, in any case. But those FINES are real.
PussyCat_Eyes
1 / 5 (5) Jun 29, 2012
Gender, race, age, disability, sexual orientation....all these things come into play in the hiring and firing of workers. It's not geared solely on qualifications and education. If it were, then it would be fair. But it isn't fair....and they'll pick a homeboy who can barely read at high school level over an over-qualified white guy.

If Estevan57 had a son who's ready to go out for a job....he would be less likely these days to get the job of his dreams if he's white. My uncle went to Hawaii and applied for a job at a famous company there. He was turned down. Why? Because he's a white guy. That's what the man said. He wasn't getting the job even though he was highly qualified for it with years of experience...because of his race.
Reverse racism reared its ugly head again.
Estevan57
1.7 / 5 (28) Jun 29, 2012
One more time for the world... Prove it please. If 20 white men WERE fired to make room for 20 minorities OF COURSE it would make "the papers". The conservative media thrives on this kind of thing and has opinion writers that insinuate this frequently. Actually, if proven, almost ANY media would frontpage this.
Are you personally privy to information that others are not?
Who is the mysterious "they" that would pick a homeboy? A corporation, school, hospital, college, or research center would pick a high school grad over a Masters? Ha, sell me a bridge please.
Considering the unemployment rate difference between minorities and whites it is very farfeched that it is easier for one to get a job than a white person.
http://www.latime...26.story

Are there nurses out there with only a high school education?

Even evidence of a fine would be acceptable.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (3) Jun 29, 2012
Do you honestly think that newspapers would carry the headlines that, "20 WHITE MALES LOSE THEIR JOBS TO 20 MINORITIES DUE TO AFFIRMATIVE ACTION AND THREAT OF HEAVY FINES"??

Because it doesn't happen. The '20 white males' would sue the respective companies into oblivion for termination without a cause. And THAT lawsuit would most certainly get splashed all over the media left, center...and especially right.
PussyCat_Eyes
1 / 5 (6) Jul 05, 2012
Estevan57
1.6 / 5 (25) Jul 06, 2012
http://www.osp.st...ases.htm

You have interpreted this incorrectly, the original injunction (in federal district court) that would have resulted in the seniority system being set aside and resulted in prference in whites being laid off was overturned by the U.S. supreme court.
Estevan57
1.6 / 5 (25) Jul 06, 2012
http://www.advers...page.htm
In his capacity as an appellate judge, Alito consistently ruled that plaintiffs in racial discrimination cases must present compelling evidence of actual, intentional discrimination instead of the circumstantial evidence upon which most modern race discrimination lawsuits are based. The article summary.

Sharon Taxman v. Piscataway (1996) Ms. Taxman sued and the case made its way through the lower courts up to the third circuit court of appeals. In 1996 the entire third circuit court ("en banc") ruled 8 to 4 in favor of Ms. Taxman's claim that her rights under Title VII had clearly been violated.

She wasn't fired to make room for anyone, she was just fired. Of the two, she was let go, and no other was hired.
Estevan57
1.6 / 5 (25) Jul 06, 2012
http://www.thehou...ge10.htm An excerpt.
In United Steelworkers v. Weber, the United States Supreme Court held that while Title VII prohibits racial discrimination (including discrimination against Caucasians), it does not condemn all voluntary, race- or gender-conscious affirmative action.26 Specifically, the Court has adopted a two-part test to determine the validity of a voluntary affirmative action plan. First, the purposes of the plan must mirror the remedial purposes of Title VII to end discrimination and its segregating effects.27 That is, the plan must seek to remedy conspicuous racial [or gender] imbalances in traditionally segregated job categories.28 Second, the voluntary affirmative action plan cannot
unnecessarily trammel the interests of white employees by, for example, requiring the discharge of white workers and their replacement with African-American hires or creating an absolute bar to their employment or advancement.29
Estevan57
1.6 / 5 (25) Jul 06, 2012
http://www.whiten...b-25.htm
Race Bias #25 - "Quota Enforcement Police" This is an OPINION piece from a racist anti black and minority website. It is opinions of opinions. White nationalism dotcom? Really? Really?
Estevan57
1.6 / 5 (25) Jul 06, 2012
http://www.whiten...b-11.htm
This article has been edited from the original. The source -
Julie Amparano (Arizona Republic) - The Arizona Republic, after hiring a private investigator to research whether her sources existed, fired columnist Julie Amparano in August 1999 when it could not find many of the people she quoted in her column. Amparano denied the allegations that she made up the quotes and said the paper didn't give her enough time to find the sources herself. However, repeated quotes in her columns were attributed to one name -- a "Jennifer Morgan," described with several different occupations and one of the numbers she gave her editor as someone she interviewed whose identity could be verified turned out to be a relative. Text quoted from: David Daley, Caught in those little white lies, The Hartford Courant (Connecticut), September 9, 1999; Ethical Lapses, American Journalism Review, March 2001 compiled by Lori Robertson and Christopher Sherman.
Estevan57
1.6 / 5 (25) Jul 06, 2012
http://www.thiede...hp?id=10
A well written and presented article. Thanks for this one.
"The tragedy again here is that, because of isolated examples of excessive application and even lowering of standards to meet Affirmative Action goals, efforts to "throw the baby out with the bath-water" are meeting with increasing support. Whether it be cases such as that found in a California university where a chair in sociology would only be funded were it filled by an African-American or Hispanic or the Health Department official who was fired because he refused to hire ten minority clerk-typists who did not know how to type, it is always these rare exceptions to good sense that get press coverage and fuel the fire of backlash." From the article.

Read this and think about your own words and actions. Again, no white were fired to provide jobs for minorities.
Estevan57
1.6 / 5 (25) Jul 06, 2012
http://caselaw.lp...nvol=273
"Respondents moved to dismiss the complaint, and in June 1974 the District Court issued a final modified opinion and order dismissing petitioners' claims under both Title VII and 1981. Turning first to the 1981 claim, the District Court determined that 1981 is wholly inapplicable to racial discrimination against white persons, and dismissed the claim for want of jurisdiction."

"We therefore hold today that Title VII prohibits racial discrimination against the white petitioners in this case upon the same standards as would be applicable were they Negroes and Jackson white." [427 U.S. 273, 281]

Respondents contend that, "even though generally applicable to white persons, Title VII affords petitioners no protection in this case, because their dismissal was based upon their commission of a serious criminal offense against their employer."
All three should have been fired, but no hiring was involved.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.9 / 5 (19) Jul 06, 2012
In other words none of the bullshit links pussy has posted has anything to do with his/her/its original bullshit. Pussy googles 'quotas' or somesuch and copy/pastes the first few links in the list, and estevan wastes an hour and 7 posts because he got sucked in by a brainless troll. Again.

How embarrassing.
PussyCat_Eyes
1 / 5 (6) Jul 06, 2012
http://www.whitenationalism.com/rb/rb-11.htm
This article has been edited from the original. The source -
Julie Amparano (Arizona Republic) - The Arizona Republic, after hiring a private investigator to research whether her sources existed, fired columnist Julie Amparano in August 1999 when it could not find many of the people she quoted in her column. Amparano denied the allegations that she made up the quotes and said the paper didn't give her enough time to find the sources herself. However, repeated quotes in her columns were attributed to one name -- a "Jennifer Morgan,"
- Estevan57

Yes, apparently WhiteNationalism didn't bother to confirm Julie Amparano's sources either, not just the Arizona Republic. http://miksa.ils....824.0069
Sad that such a talented reporter cheated her readers. I searched her name and found this link. There was also a black male reporter who was fired for plagiarism.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.4 / 5 (15) Jul 07, 2012
You have interpreted this incorrectly
The
She wasn't fired to make room for anyone, she was just fired. Of the two, she was let go, and no other was hired.
Troll
An excerpt.
Was
White nationalism dotcom? Really? Really?
Playing
This article has been edited from the original.
You
Read this and think about your own words and actions. Again, no white were fired to provide jobs for minorities.
Badly.
All three should have been fired, but no hiring was involved.
-And you shouldnt allow yourself to get sucked in. It only encourages further abuse of this site.
Yes, apparently WhiteNationalism didn't bother to confirm Julie Amparano's sources either, not just the Arizona Republic
-Nor did pussy bother to read any of his/her/its links but merely dropped them turdlike, with no respect. None apply.
Not at all Otto, I do appreciate the time and effort PussyCat spent on these examples.
All of 2 minutes. Sucker.