Palaeontologists catch turtles in flagrante

Jun 19, 2012
German palaeontologists have dug up the remains of nine turtle pairs that died while mating some 47 million years ago, sinking into poisonous waters while locked in a final embrace, a report said.

German palaeontologists have dug up the remains of nine turtle pairs that died while mating some 47 million years ago, sinking into poisonous waters while locked in a final embrace, a report said Wednesday.

The find represents the first-ever of copulating vertebrates (animals with a backbone), said a report in the Royal Society Journal Biology Letters.

"Millions of animals live and die every year and many enter the fossil record through serendipitous circumstances, but there really is no reason to enter the fossil record while you are mating," co-author Walter Joyce told AFP about the rarity of the find.

"The chances of both partners dying at the same time is highly unlikely and the chances of both partners being preserved afterwards even less likely."

The discovery at the Messel Pit fossil site between Darmstadt and Frankfurt in Germany allowed the team to deduct that the waters of the Messel Lake had been hospitable enough to allow turtles to live and mate.

But the animals died accidentally when they sank while locked together into deeper, poisonous layers, their skins absorbing the noxious substances in the volcanic lake.

"There is no doubt that this lake killed many unsuspecting animals," said Joyce of the University of Tuebingen.

The paper said do not typically die while undertaking daily routines like eating, brooding their nests or mating, leaving scientists to rely on conjecture to determine what their behaviour would have been like.

The paper said it was common in fresh water for the couple to freeze into a mating position.

"If mounting occurs in the , the couple is likely to thereby sink to considerable depths," it said -- possibly explaining why so many individuals fell into the same death trap.

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PussyCat_Eyes
1.5 / 5 (17) Jun 19, 2012
The water would've provided buoyancy for one turtle, but probably the combined weight was enough to make them sink like a rock. So sad....no baby turtles for them. Turtles are slow anyway. I once saw 2 box turtles mating. It must've taken them 18 days to finish....lol
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (8) Jun 19, 2012
Paleontological Pervert.
Estevan57
2.6 / 5 (31) Jun 19, 2012
Yes, you're right, everyone knows that weight cancels bouyancy. wink wink
PussyCat_Eyes
1.8 / 5 (15) Jun 19, 2012
@Vendicar_De ...Yes you are.....but what's that got to do with dead turtles? Volcanic lake...in Germany even.

"The find represents the first-ever fossil record of copulating vertebrates (animals with a backbone), said a report in the Royal Society Journal Biology Letters."

They said it...I didn't.
dtxx
2.6 / 5 (9) Jun 19, 2012
If I am to be fossilized and found millions of years from now, please let it be in the same manner as these Testudines.
MandoZink
2.8 / 5 (8) Jun 20, 2012
If I am to be fossilized and found millions of years from now, please let it be in the same manner as these Testudines.

I'm sure it's your Chelonian birthright to do so.

Reminds me:
"When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car."
Jack Handey
verkle
2.1 / 5 (19) Jun 20, 2012
Where do the other interesting fossils come from, like this one of a fish eating another fish:
http://www.answer...fish.jpg

Did they sink in poisonous swamps, too?
I doubt it.

There had to have been a sudden change in their environments for these to survive. Fossilized jellyfish show by the details of their soft, fleshy portions that they were buried rapidly before they could decay. Presence of fossilized remains in mass graves and lying in contorted positions suggests violent and rapid burials over large areas. Compressed fossils and fossils that cut across two or more layers of sedimentary rock are also evidence that the sediments encasing these fossils were deposited rapidlynot over hundreds of millions of years. And, almost all sediments that formed todays rocks were sorted by water. The worldwide fossil record is, therefore, evidence of rapid death and burial of animal and plant life by a worldwide, catastrophic flood.
roboferret
2.3 / 5 (3) Jun 20, 2012
Where do the other interesting fossils come from, like this one of a fish eating another fish:

Maybe it choked, who knows. The obvious answer is not "God did it"
Did they sink in poisonous swamps, too?
I doubt it.

There had to have been a sudden change in their environments for these to survive. Fossilized jellyfish show by the details of their soft, fleshy portions that they were buried rapidly before they could decay.

http://www.talkor...363.html

Presence of fossilized remains in mass graves and lying in contorted positions suggests violent and rapid burials over large areas.
Compressed fossils and fossils that cut across two or more layers of sedimentary rock are also evidence that the sediments encasing these fossils were deposited rapidly not over hundreds of millions of years.

http://www.talkor...1_3.html
roboferret
3.4 / 5 (5) Jun 20, 2012
And, almost all sediments that formed todays rocks were sorted by water. The worldwide fossil record is, therefore, evidence of rapid death and burial of animal and plant life by a worldwide, catastrophic flood.

http://www.talkor...550.html

Sorry Verkle, your arguments are rehashed versions of claims that were debunked years ago. The Flood story holds no water.
LariAnn
3.4 / 5 (11) Jun 20, 2012
Why does it have to be either "God's version" vs. the atheist's version in every dispute? You know, catastrophic flooding can happen if a meteorite hits the ocean or a very large inland sea without it having to be global or Biblical. There could have been multiple catastrophic flood events due to assorted meteorite or megatsunami events in different time periods without having to conform to either religious contentions or atheistic contentions. If the evidence suggests it, how about, "something catastrophic happened" - no reference to either God or no-God, just a logical, testable hypothesis based on observation of the facts?
Shakescene21
3.5 / 5 (8) Jun 20, 2012
@LariAnn
Welcome to Physorg. You must be new, because these tangential disputes between religious and atheistic activists are a common feature here. There is nothing you can do about it, so it's best to focus on the fascinating scientific progress that is being presented at Physorg.
MandoZink
3.8 / 5 (6) Jun 20, 2012
One of the most commonly believed fossilized examples of catastrophic death was recently debunked by experiments:
"Study finds decomposition responsible for fossilized deformations"
http://phys.org/n...ons.html

We've had a long superstitious legacy of plugging god into the holes made by unanswered mysteries. Thankfully, we keep getting smarter, learning the truth, correcting our mistakes and replacing the superstitious with evidence from actual experiments.

Along similar lines: It's nice to see fairies and bunnies floating in clouds, but it's also nice to learn that our Pareidolia is the paintbrush that puts that magic in the clouds for us.
beyondApsis
3.8 / 5 (8) Jun 20, 2012
Along similar lines: It's nice to see fairies and bunnies floating in clouds, but it's also nice to learn that our Pareidolia is the paintbrush that puts that magic in the clouds for us.

Ah yes! Pareidolia - the innate ability to see your favorite magic entities in Pop-Tarts and cheese sandwiches.

Is there a name for the same illusion in geological strata and fossils?
PussyCat_Eyes
1.4 / 5 (10) Jun 20, 2012
Why does it have to be either "God's version" vs. the atheist's version in every dispute? You know, catastrophic flooding can happen if a meteorite hits the ocean or a very large inland sea without it having to be global or Biblical. There could have been multiple catastrophic flood events due to assorted meteorite or megatsunami events in different time periods without having to conform to either religious contentions or atheistic contentions. If the evidence suggests it, how about, "something catastrophic happened" - no reference to either God or no-God, just a logical, testable hypothesis based on observation of the facts?
- LariAnn

I've wondered about that also. It seems like a game of oneupmanship, or a silly battle to the death and the winner gets a booby prize. I guess the only real evidence will come if another extinction event happens and floods the planet again. A few billion buried in sediment won't make a difference. The argument will still go on.
roboferret
4.2 / 5 (5) Jun 21, 2012
Pussycat_eyes and LariAnn

It's not about Religion vs Atheism. You don't have to be an atheist to know the Earth is more than 7000 years old. It is about science vs mythology, empiricism vs presuppositionalism. The evidence is overwhelming against creationism but they still come here to troll and proselytize. These are not to equal, competing worldviews.
The important thing, of course, is that you have found a way to feel superior to both.
http://xkcd.com/774/
PussyCat_Eyes
1.8 / 5 (15) Jun 21, 2012
@roboferret.....of course it's way over 7000 yo. There are those who believe the stories in the O.T., when they shouldn't believe every bit of it and take it literally. Even the JEWS don't take it literally. THEY (secular Jews mainly) are only interested in it so as to tie themselves in with the ancient Hebrew tribes. To make like they actually belong to those groups while most of them don't. They have an ongoing identity crisis, which is something that most Christians pretend they have too. That's the nature of Christianity, that is to say that they identify with the ancient Hebrews and the land of Israel, as though their ancestors were in Israel also. It's a great delusion and they pass it on.
Rather than just take the lessons in morality from the Bible and apply it to their lives, they take the stories of Jewish history and make like it's THEIR history too. Of course it isn't, but a lot of Christians NEED to identify with SOMETHING, so they rely on the bible.
PussyCat_Eyes
1.6 / 5 (13) Jun 21, 2012
And atheists are just as bad....they have created an enemy in their own minds, and they bristle and get all indignant and angry at Christians or any other religion-loving people because they feel that religion is the main cause of all the world's ills. It's not. Religion is only a tool for those who need something to believe in.
But the problem with atheists, is that they are fast becoming just like the Crusaders. The old Crusaders were sent to get rid of the Muslims, and the atheist Crusaders want to get rid of ALL religions. They're barking up the wrong tree when they want to remove Christians. Christians don't want to kill people, unless they're insane or criminally minded.
It's the Fundamentalist Muslims who want to kill us. Do you think that atheists will get away with not being killed also by Muslims? They'll probably be in worse danger than Christians. Jews will be exterminated because they're Jews.
PussyCat_Eyes
1.8 / 5 (15) Jun 21, 2012
I'm not saying that all these things will happen. But I would think that a little "brotherhood" would help a lot to create a sense of amity between Christians and atheists. Nobody needs to change their beliefs or non-beliefs. You follow your own path in life and watch out for speed bumps. :)
You think that ancient turtles wondered whether or not their mates were Christians or atheists? They only wanted to pass on their genetics....without a care.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (14) Jun 21, 2012
There are those who believe the stories in the O.T., when they shouldn't believe every bit of it and take it literally. Even the JEWS don't take it literally
Hold on... are you saying that 'jews' dont believe the stories in the bible? That noah didnt build an ark, that moses didnt lead hebrew slaves out of egypt, that joshua didnt conquer the holy land, that david didnt slay goliath, that solomon didnt build a temple? You think 'jews' believe these stories arent true?

And what 'jews' are you talking about? Orthodox, masorti, reform, reconstructionist, or humanistic jews?
PussyCat_Eyes
1.9 / 5 (14) Jun 21, 2012
What difference does it make to YOU...they're all the same to you, aren't they? They're all religionists, evil that they are and you need to rid yourself of them, right?
They all have a different name for each group...just like Christians do. Then there's Sunni, Shia, and all the others whose religions you hate. So what's the major difference? None at all, except for, like I said, Fundamentalist Muslims who would prefer to send you to hell without 72 virgins.
Why don't you take a trip to the Middle East and see what it's all about, eh?

Actually, secular Jews only give it lip service and wouldn't be caught dead in a synagogue except high holy days.
PussyCat_Eyes
1.9 / 5 (14) Jun 21, 2012
I really wanted to talk about ancient turtles....but since you're here....we'll talk about Jews.
Christians and Muslims owe it all to the ancient Hebrews...and modern Christians have that, je ne sais qua pas.....love of Jewish lore that keeps them carrying a Jewish bible around like it's all about European heathens, their ancestors. Jews, in their turn, just ADORE European appearances. They don't want to look like a bunch of Arabs. They like being blondes with blue eyes...etc. But when it comes to religion, "WE are the CHOSEN people. God loves us and not you". But Christians cling to the hope that God will love them too. Go figure
PussyCat_Eyes
1.9 / 5 (17) Jun 21, 2012
Lip service....when they're not into making money or trying to rule the world. I have to admire Jews. They've got it all...but they put on that act of how oppressed they are while whistling a tune all the way to the bank. I just love it.
But I don't feel any personal enmity toward Jews...I say, if you're rich, educated and own a factory, go for it. It doesn't bother me in the least. Only one that bothers me is the likes of Bernie Madoff and other cheats. The world is better off without that garbage.

Good, he's gone
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.3 / 5 (13) Jun 21, 2012
when they're not into making money or trying to rule the world
So... youre not just ignorant, youre an ignorant bigot.

"Dinah, you're staff has been so nice. And they's all JEWISH! I can't believe them's the people that what killed our Lord."
-Mary Hartman

I just got a PM from ritchie/pussy:
"So what is the REAL reason why you keep coming after me? Is it that you would like to make love to me. If I gave you my picture, you would probably cum all over yourself."

-Sorry I dont like lying imbeciles.
roboferret
4 / 5 (4) Jun 21, 2012
I have no problem with religious people. Live and let live and all that. I would resist wholeheartedly any attempt to ban or silence them.
It does annoy me when they come on to science sites to prosleytize. Its amazing how we can have religious broadcasts 24/7, ads, leaflets, shouting through bullhorns, thats all fine - but call yourself an atheist, and your a militant.
PussyCat_Eyes
1.9 / 5 (13) Jun 22, 2012

I just got a PM from ritchie/pussy:
"So what is the REAL reason why you keep coming after me? Is it that you would like to make love to me. If I gave you my picture, you would probably cum all over yourself."

Blotto...you fickin idiot....my BOYFRIEND sent you that PM while I was in the kitchen. I was wondering why he was laughing so hard. LOL....do you really think that I would stoop that low to send you ANYTHING? YOU'RE AN UGLY FAT PIG, judging from your picture. You must be nuts to think a gorgeous woman like me would find you even remotely attractive.
Just keep following me into all the threads...everyone knows now what a fool of an arse you are. You're wrapping your life around every little word I say. That makes you nothing but a big joke to everyone that reads these comments.

PussyCat_Eyes
1.4 / 5 (10) Jun 22, 2012
You know what, Blotto....I think you're a self-hating Jew...and that's why you're a NAZI-Lover. You're crazy for Otto Skorzeny and you would love to have been him and done all the atrocities that he did.
And you have the gall to compare Skorzeny to a great German scientist like Wernher von Braun, as though they were equals? Du bist total verrückt. Now you have the utter nerve to call ME a bigot because I speak the truth?
It's apparent that you want the Jews to be just like those in the bible, and you have gotten upset because they're no longer how you want them to be. You've studied the bible and now you're finding out that they've changed from what you perceive them to be. Sad sad Blotto.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (13) Jun 22, 2012
Blotto...you fickin idiot....my BOYFRIEND sent you that PM while I was in the kitchen. I was wondering why he was laughing so hard. LOL....
So... you and your bf both use this sockpuppet the same way you did the pirouette sockpuppet... so you can claim you werent the dimwit who conceived sweet sorghum and lost-wax boomerangs... because it was the OTHER dimwit. Must be hard with him on his way to afghanistan though.

No problem - a liar is a liar.
PussyCat_Eyes
1.7 / 5 (12) Jun 22, 2012
Nope....not me....and not him either. I never knew anything about those people that you keep raving about until you started chasing me into every thread and calling me this and that. You probably never even read my profile...my identity is all there. Or maybe you're so confused with all your sock puppets that you've forgotten to accept what is obvious to everyone else who are sane.
I know nothing about sweet and sour sorgums and neither does my boyfriend.
Now shoooo....leave me alone.
A2G
2.3 / 5 (6) Jun 24, 2012
WTF? What happened to the subject of turtles being found mating in death? It would be really a novel concept for people to actually stick to the subject matter in the article or at least closely related and drop all the personal attacks. This is Physorg, not South Park.
PussyCat_Eyes
1.7 / 5 (11) Jun 28, 2012
@A2G
I came into this thread to talk about the dead turtle fossils. But as you can read in these pages, I have been verbally attacked repeatedly. I'm sorry that the thread is ruined..wasn't my fault and maybe I shouldn't have responded to that nutcase.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.5 / 5 (16) Jun 29, 2012
I came into this thread to talk about the dead turtle fossils
-But chose to defame Jews instead.
But as you can read in these pages, I have been verbally attacked repeatedly.
-Because you post insane ignorance like this:
@roboferret.....of course it's way over 7000 yo. There are those who believe the stories in the O.T., when they shouldn't believe every bit of it and take it literally. Even the JEWS don't take it literally. THEY (secular Jews mainly) are only interested in it so as to tie themselves in with the ancient Hebrew tribes.
-And so you are rightfully addressed. What do you expect?
I'm sorry that the thread is ruined..wasn't my fault
In your mind it never is but it ALWAYS is. Post your thoughtless flooding chatroom stupidity and you will disrupt the thread every time. As you did so outrageously here:
http://phys.org/n...ain.html