What was he thinking? Study turns to ape intellect

Jun 24, 2012 by SETH BORENSTEIN
In this Dec. 13, 2006 photo provided by the Primate Research Institute of Kyoto University, a 5 1/2-year-old chimpanzee named Ayumu performs a memory test with randomly-placed consecutive Arabic numerals, which are later masked, accurately duplicating the lineup on a touch screen computer in Kyoto, Japan. The young chimpanzees in the study titled "Working memory of numerals in chimpanzees" by Sana Inoue and Tetsuro Matsuzawa could memorize the nine numerals much faster and more accurately than human adults. The evidence that animals are more intelligent and more social than we thought seems to grow each year, especially when it comes to primates. It's an increasingly hot scientific field with the number of ape and monkey cognition studies doubling in recent years, often with better technology and neuroscience paving the way to unusual discoveries. (AP Photo/Primate Research Institute of Kyoto University) PART OF A SEVEN-PICTURE PACKAGE WITH "ANIMAL SCIENCES"

(AP) — The more we study animals, the less special we seem.

Baboons can distinguish between written words and gibberish. Monkeys seem to be able to do multiplication. Apes can delay instant gratification longer than a human child can. They plan ahead. They make war and peace. They show empathy. They share.

"It's not a question of whether they think — it's how they think," says Duke University scientist Brian Hare. Now scientists wonder if apes are capable of thinking about what other apes are thinking.

The evidence that animals are more intelligent and more social than we thought seems to grow each year, especially when it comes to primates. It's an increasingly hot scientific field with the number of ape and monkey cognition studies doubling in recent years, often with better technology and neuroscience paving the way to unusual discoveries.

This month scientists mapping the DNA of the bonobo ape found that, like the chimp, bonobos are only 1.3 percent different from humans.

Says Josep Call, director of the primate research center at the Max Planck Institute in Germany: "Every year we discover things that we thought they could not do."

Call says one of his recent more surprising studies showed that apes can set goals and follow through with them.

Orangutans and bonobos in a zoo were offered eight possible tools — two of which would help them get at some food. At times when they chose the proper tool, researchers moved the apes to a different area before they could get the food, and then kept them waiting as much as 14 hours. In nearly every case, when the apes realized they were being moved, they took their tool with them so they could use it to get food the next day, remembering that even after sleeping. The goal and series of tasks didn't leave the apes' minds.

Call says this is similar to a person packing luggage a day before a trip: "For humans it's such a central ability, it's so important."

For a few years, scientists have watched chimpanzees in zoos collect and store rocks as weapons for later use. In May, a study found they even add deception to the mix. They created haystacks to conceal their stash of stones from opponents, just like nations do with bombs.

Hare points to studies where competing chimpanzees enter an arena where one bit of food is hidden from view for only one chimp. The chimp that can see the hidden food, quickly learns that his foe can't see it and uses that to his advantage, displaying the ability to perceive another ape's situation. That's a trait humans develop as toddlers, but something we thought other animals never got, Hare said.

And then there is the amazing monkey memory.

At the National Zoo in Washington, humans who try to match their recall skills with an orangutan's are humbled. Zoo associate director Don Moore says: "I've got a Ph.D., for God's sake, you would think I could out-think an orang and I can't."

In French research, at least two baboons kept memorizing so many pictures — several thousand — that after three years researchers ran out of time before the baboons reached their limit. Researcher Joel Fagot at the French National Center for Scientific Research figured they could memorize at least 10,000 and probably more.

And a chimp in Japan named Ayumu who sees strings of numbers flash on a screen for a split-second regularly beats humans at accurately duplicating the lineup. He's a YouTube sensation, along with orangutans in a Miami zoo that use iPads.

It's not just primates that demonstrate surprising abilities.

Dolphins, whose brains are 25 percent heavier than humans, recognize themselves in a mirror. So do elephants. A study in June finds that black bears can do primitive counting, something even pigeons have done, by putting two dots before five, or 10 before 20 in one experiment.

The trend in research is to identify some new thinking skill that chimps can do, revealing that certain abilities are "not uniquely human," said Emory University primatologist Frans de Waal. Then the scientists find that same ability in other primates further removed from humans genetically. Then they see it in dogs and elephants.

"Capacities that we think in humans are very special and complex are probably not so special and not so complex," de Waal said. "This research in animals elevates the animals, but it also brings down the humans.... If monkeys can do it and maybe dogs and other animals, maybe it's not as complex as you think."

At Duke, professor Elizabeth Brannon shows videos of monkeys that appear to be doing a "fuzzy representation" of multiplication by following the number of dots that go into a box on a computer screen and choosing the right answer to come out of the box. This is after they've already done addition and subtraction.

This spring in France, researchers showed that six baboons could distinguish between fake and real four-letter words — BRRU vs KITE, for example. And they chose to do these computer-based exercises of their own free will, either for fun or a snack.

It was once thought the control of emotions and the ability to empathize and socialize separated us from our primate cousins. But chimps console, and fight, each other. They also try to soothe an upset companion, grooming and putting their arms around him.

"I see plenty of empathy in my chimpanzees," de Waal said. But studies have shown they also go to war against neighboring colonies, killing the males and taking the females. That's something that also is very human and led people to believe that war-making must go back in our lineage 6 million years, de Waal said.

When scientists look at our other closest relative, the bonobo, they see a difference. Bonobos don't kill. Hare says his experiments show bonobos give food to newcomer bonobos, even when they could choose to keep all the food themselves.

One reason scientists are learning more about animal intellect is computers, including touch screens. In some cases, scientists are setting up banks of computers available to primates 24-7. In the French word recognition experiment, Fagot found he got more and better data when it was the baboons' choice to work.

Animal cognition researcher Steve Ross at the Lincoln Park Zoo in Chicago agrees.

"The apes in our case seem to be working better when they have that control, that choice to perform," he said.

Brain scans on monkeys and apes also have helped correct mistaken views about ape brain power. It was once thought the prefrontal cortex, the area in charge of higher reasoning, was disproportionately larger than the rest of the brain only in humans, giving us a cognitive advantage, Hare said. But imaging shows that monkey and ape prefrontal cortexes have that same larger scale, he said.

What's different is that the human communication system in the prefrontal cortex is more complex, Hare said.

So there are limits to what non-human primates can do. Animals don't have the ability to communicate with the complexity of human language. In the French study, the baboons can recognize that the letters KITE make a word because through trial and error they learn which letters tend to go together in what order. But the baboons don't have a clue of what KITE means. It's that gap that's key.

"The boundaries are not as sharp as people think, but there are certain things you can't overcome and language is one of them," said Columbia University animal cognition researcher Herbert Terrace.

And that leads to another difference, Ross said. Because apes lack language skills, they learn by watching and mimicking. Humans teach with language and explanation, which is faster and better, Ross said.

Some of the shifts in scientific understanding of animals are leading to ethical debates. When Emory University researcher Lori Marino in 2001 co-wrote a groundbreaking study on dolphins recognizing themselves in mirrors, proving they have a sense of self similar to humans, she had a revelation.

"The more you learn about them, the more you realize that they do have the capacity and characteristics that we think of as a person," Marino said. "I think it's impossible to ignore the ethical implications of these kinds of findings."

After the two dolphins she studied died when transferred to another aquarium, she decided never to work on captive dolphins again. She then became a science adviser to the Nonhuman Rights Project, which seeks legal rights or status for animals. The idea, Marino said, is to get animals such as dolphins "to be deemed a person, not property."

The intelligence of primates was one of the factors behind a report last year by the Institute of Medicine that said the National Institutes of Health should reduce dramatically the number of chimpanzees it uses in biomedical research.

The NIH is working on new guidelines that would further limit federal medical chimpanzee use down from its current few dozen chimps at any given time, said NIH program planning chief James Anderson. Chimps are a special case, with their use "very, very limited," he said. But he raises the question: "What happens if your child is sick or your mother is dying" and animal research might lead to a cure?

The issue is more about animal welfare and giving them the right "not to be killed, not to be tortured, not to be confined unnecessarily" than giving them legal standing, said David DeGrazia, a philosophy and ethics professor at George Washington University.

Hare says that focusing on animal rights ignores the problem of treatment of chimps in research settings. He contends that for behavioral studies and even for many medical research tests they could be kept in zoos or sanctuaries rather than labs.

Animals performing tasks in near-natural habitats "is like an Ivy League college" for the apes, Hare said. "We're going to see them do stunning and sophisticated things."

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Squirrel
1.4 / 5 (29) Jun 24, 2012
Nonsense. The smartest adult ape is comparable at best to an average three year old child on an off day. No where near the intelligence of a dim human adult. Humans have much bigger brains and much more extended neurodevelopment. Nothing like the rich descriptive ability of language exists outside the human species. No close primate species has anything like human pair bonding, inlawship between families, social cooperation.

Similarities can always be found by ignoring degree of skill and sentimentality can play such forced "similarities" into claims that apes are not so different but below the surface what humans do with their brains, each other and the rest of the world is alien to anything done elsewhere in nature.
slayerwulfe
1.7 / 5 (10) Jun 24, 2012
let's give it a chance, a gorilla walking upright like a person, throw some clothes in, lets see if it puts them on. so Squirrel where do you think we came from, squirrels. you don't speak or understand squirrel so squirrel does not exist, as in the dim human adult on an off day. goodbye god hello evolution.
DavidW
3.1 / 5 (21) Jun 24, 2012
Nonsense.

I didnt get nonsense out of it. It seemed pretty balanced for further clarifying observations.

The smartest adult ape is comparable at best to an average three year old child on an off day.

This may be a current an accurate observation for you, but the observations of others are no less real.

Similarities can

Can, is not the answer to why. We are alive and they are alive. We cannot change the past and they cannot change the past. They are animals and we are animals. In these ways, we are completely identical in every sane human mind there is on this planet and its completely free of the, "can" as in, "Can we still find excuses to enslave, torture, rape, and murder animals for the sole needless purpose of self-gratification?"

We only have a right to life as human animals by life being the first self-evident truth. The animals also share this truth with us. The most thing in life is life. Compassion is truth manifest.
Terriva
2.4 / 5 (20) Jun 24, 2012
..monkeys do math, baboons seem to read, orangutans plan ahead..
..but, but... only people aren't able to understand the dense aether model...
Deadbolt
3.4 / 5 (20) Jun 24, 2012
It seems more and more that the difference between the other apes and humans is less about intelligence, in the sense of general problem solving ability on an individual level, and much more about the expanded language ability of humans, which leverages groups intelligence and knowledge, and allows us to accumulate knowledge over historical time, and build up a civilization.

However, if you pitted a human against a chimp in a series of logical puzzles designed to test general intelligence, and allowed the human no outside knowledge, it's not clear to me who would come out best.

Can a human outsmart a chimp?
Telekinetic
3.3 / 5 (12) Jun 24, 2012
..monkeys do math, baboons seem to read, orangutans plan ahead..
..but, but... only people aren't able to understand the dense aether model...

It may be in the explanation.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.7 / 5 (12) Jun 24, 2012
It is even worse for squirrel. He doesn't speak or understand squirrel so he is actually inferior to a squirrel.

"you don't speak or understand squirrel so squirrel does not exist" - Slayer
Vendicar_Decarian
4.1 / 5 (13) Jun 24, 2012
"It seems more and more that the difference between the other apes and humans is less about intelligence, in the sense of general problem solving ability on an individual level, and much more about the expanded language ability of humans, which leverages groups intelligence and knowledge, and allows us to accumulate knowledge over historical time, and build up a civilization." - Deadbolt

You have it exactly right. Bang on. Congratulations.

We use our inner monologue to organize a mishmash of sensory modeling into a linear chain of actions and or logical inferences that can be recorded, transmitted to others, and analyzed on a step by step basis for correctness, and modified should an error or better plan of action be found.

Complex language is the key organizer in our mind that has allowed us to understand and exploit the world around us, and as our technical capacity improves, our language continues to evolve into a more technical, more precise formulation.

Telekinetic
2.6 / 5 (15) Jun 24, 2012
These researchers, especially the one who wants dolphins to be treated with the respect afforded to humans, are of a very high level of consciousness. I decided to put an end to my eating meat, because it's becoming more evident through research like this that it is wrong. It isn't hard to do, but I won't proselytize, it's just very difficult for me to see a truckload of pig carcasses swinging from a rack in the back of a delivery truck, considering that they're considered to be extremely intelligent animals.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.2 / 5 (10) Jun 24, 2012
I have essentially done the same thing, although I am finding meat replacements to be somewhat problematic these days.

I use either concentrated plant protein, or eat as low on the food chain as possible, excluding fish (unfortunately).

I will eat chicken, because they are dumber than rats.

"I decided to put an end to my eating meat, because it's becoming more evident through research like this that it is wrong." - telekinetic
BikeToAustralia
2.4 / 5 (10) Jun 24, 2012
Can an ape (or any other species) outperform a human in a test devised by humans? What does that accomplish?

Everything everywhere deserves respect. Those closer to 'home' will get more respect. It is natural. We give more (of what we value) to our children than we give to someone else's child. "Our kind" gets preferential treatment, it is inevitable.

It would not be natural to stop experimenting on apes and dolphins, but instead experiment on humans of another color, religion, country or sex. Why would we? Only if we care more about accurate results than ethics and morals. Scary thoughts.

But, why do we NEED to experiment harmfully? Are we not creative enough to learn and explore without breaking and mutilating what is fundamentally NOT "ours"?
verkle
1 / 5 (23) Jun 24, 2012
The answer to this question has been around for a long time, and it is found in Genesis 2:7. This set apart man from animals for eternity.

Telekinetic
3.3 / 5 (15) Jun 24, 2012
The answer to this question has been around for a long time, and it is found in Genesis 2:7. This set apart man from animals for eternity.


Christians have bastardized the teachings of a sage to the point of them being unrecognizable. He would be rolling in his grave to see what's been going on in his name.
HatersGonnaHate
2.7 / 5 (16) Jun 24, 2012
It would seem to me that this line has been blurred for some time.

A great example are the posts that Vendicar Decarian makes. Clearly a monkey, and commenting on a physics site. Years ago nobody would have thought this was possible.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.4 / 5 (7) Jun 24, 2012
Didn't Jehova formeth the monkey -- dust from the ground???

"And Jehovah God formeth the man -- dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature." - Genesis 2.7
Vendicar_Decarian
1.9 / 5 (11) Jun 24, 2012
Don't hate me because I'm vastly smarter than you are.

"A great example are the posts that Vendicar Decarian makes. Clearly a monkey, and commenting on a physics site." - HatersGonnaHate

Hate yourself for being vastly inferior.
HatersGonnaHate
2 / 5 (16) Jun 24, 2012
Oh I don't hate you. As a matter of fact I pity you. Ignorant/Arrogant is a terrible combination.

Kind Regards
ziphead
2.5 / 5 (10) Jun 24, 2012
I decided to put an end to my eating meat, because it's becoming more evident through research like this that it is wrong. It isn't hard to do, but I won't proselytize, it's just very difficult for me to see a truckload of pig carcasses swinging from a rack in the back of a delivery truck, considering that they're considered to be extremely intelligent animals.


And if a hungry wild boar comes across your sorry arse somewhere in the wild, you think it would be put off by a moral dilemma?

Empathy serves purpose in the evolutionary sense only if it is bidirectional. So, enjoy the perks of being on top of the food chain; it may not last.

Vendicar_Decarian
1.9 / 5 (11) Jun 24, 2012
Excellent.

"Oh I don't hate you." - HatersGonnaHate

Now lets work on your self loathing shall we? When did it start? When you realized that your daddy was boffing your mommie and you weren't getting any?

"As a matter of fact I pity you. " - HatersGonnaHate

Yes, my vast intellect is often a burden. I suffer greatly due to the constant exposure to intellectual inferiors such as yourself.

Worry not. I tread carefully around the infirm and the little people.
Vendicar_Decarian
2 / 5 (9) Jun 24, 2012
Nope. I would dispatch it as easily as I would dispatch a frothing bore like you.

"And if a hungry wild boar comes across your sorry arse somewhere in the wild, you think it would be put off by a moral dilemma?" - ziphead

"Empathy serves purpose in the evolutionary sense only if it is bidirectional." - Ziphead

I will remind you of that should you ever be dying in agony.
la7dfa
3.5 / 5 (8) Jun 24, 2012
The evidence human stupidity and ignorance seem to be confirmed again. Every time studies shows animals are clever and has "human traits", it just shows how slow learners homo sapiens are...

Why have we wandered the earth so long, and first now learned this?

We can blame retarded religions for at least half of our stupidity .
PussyCat_Eyes
1.4 / 5 (10) Jun 24, 2012
let's give it a chance, a gorilla walking upright like a person, throw some clothes in, lets see if it puts them on. so Squirrel where do you think we came from, squirrels. you don't speak or understand squirrel so squirrel does not exist, as in the dim human adult on an off day. goodbye god hello evolution.
- Slayerwulfe

There was once a story that the great granddaddy of all squirrel's way back when, had developed a language and planned to teach it to his children. But his plans went awry when he accidentally entered the wrong burrow and got eaten by a snake. The End.
Telekinetic
1.5 / 5 (8) Jun 24, 2012
I decided to put an end to my eating meat, because it's becoming more evident through research like this that it is wrong. It isn't hard to do, but I won't proselytize, it's just very difficult for me to see a truckload of pig carcasses swinging from a rack in the back of a delivery truck, considering that they're considered to be extremely intelligent animals.


And if a hungry wild boar comes across your sorry arse somewhere in the wild, you think it would be put off by a moral dilemma?

Empathy serves purpose in the evolutionary sense only if it is bidirectional. So, enjoy the perks of being on top of the food chain; it may not last. -ziphead


Wild boars don't eat people. Secondly, empathy is a refinement of human character, whether it's reciprocated or not. I have empathy to a degree for those with zip in their heads.
Turritopsis
2.1 / 5 (13) Jun 25, 2012
The human diet should primarily be animal based. If you believe in evolution you will realize the importance here because for millions of years this has been mans primary food source. The Paleolithic diet centered around animal flesh.

Vegan/vegetarian diets can be a healthy alternative ONLY when food is carefully selected and combined to satisfy the nutritional requirements. Otherwise, these diets can be very dangerous to human beings.
Turritopsis
2.6 / 5 (14) Jun 25, 2012
Contrary to vegan preachings, mans digestive system is designed for the consumption of animal flesh. You don't need to look further than the human mouth for supporting evidence. Human teeth are great for biting flesh. I know, I've experimented with this on numerous occasions. ;)
Nyloc
4.3 / 5 (6) Jun 25, 2012
Show me a human who can communication in dolphin language before your criticize dolphins for not being able to communicate in ours. It's not enough to assume that animals aren't as smart as us because they can't communicate in our languages.
Yes, we have a unique ability to share ideas through symbols, and we have invented machines to make us more sensitive with scents than dogs, sound than bats, sight than owls, etc. Yet all other creatures have found a way to live sustainably on this planet, which we have yet been "smart" enough to do.
HatersGonnaHate
2.1 / 5 (15) Jun 25, 2012
I rather like it that granola eaters like Venereal Disease opt out of eating meat. At the end of the day there is more left for me and demand for the product is lower.

Kind Regards
sirchick
2.5 / 5 (2) Jun 25, 2012
I often wonder - we have been domesticating dogs for a long time now... maybe in the next 10,000 years (probably more).... dogs could evolve to speak like humans perhaps no more than simple words like a baby, but if they remain as domestic animals always by our side, there is possibly enough reason for evolution to see an advantage to adapt their vocal ability.

It would be great to have a talking dog wouldn't it :D
Vendicar_Decarian
1.7 / 5 (6) Jun 25, 2012
Not only is he Hate filled and irrational, he is illiterate as well.

"I rather like it that granola eaters like Venereal Disease opt out of eating meat." - HatersGonnaHate

Yes, he is correct for hating himself because he is inferior.
HatersGonnaHate
2.2 / 5 (13) Jun 25, 2012
Venereal,

I'm not the one that stuffed you into that locker every day between second and third period. Your emotional distress is understandable but your anger is misplaced. Maybe a nice steak will make you happy.

Kind Regards
elektron
1.9 / 5 (10) Jun 25, 2012
In many respects humans are identical more or less to other higher mammals, albeit in one particular area which is awareness of ones awareness. It is this that separates a human animal from all other animals.

Indeed if we were to one day discover an alien species (not that I think this day will arrive) that was also aware of it's own awareness then, in this respect it could be defined as 'human'.
PS3
2.6 / 5 (10) Jun 25, 2012
The best is the youtube videos of elephants painting..just amazing!
boater805
2.5 / 5 (11) Jun 25, 2012
Contrary to vegan preachings, mans digestive system is designed for the consumption of animal flesh. You don't need to look further than the human mouth for supporting evidence. Human teeth are great for biting flesh. I know, I've experimented with this on numerous occasions. ;)


An interesting theory. I have packed knife and fork and I'm off to the BBQ to do more research (I only hope my government grant comes through).
alfie_null
4 / 5 (4) Jun 25, 2012
Posturing must be part of the 98.7 percent we share.
UleeUggams
4 / 5 (2) Jun 25, 2012
dogs could evolve to speak like humans ..... but if they remain as domestic animals ......adapt their vocal ability.

It would be great to have a talking dog wouldn't it :D

OMG I have seen a dog that could growl simple words it scared the hell out of me. it could growl " I want out" plain as day
kevinrtrs
1.2 / 5 (18) Jun 25, 2012
@Turritopsis:
is designed for the consumption of animal flesh

Surely if humans "evolved" then there is no such thing as having been "designed". Evolution by it's very definition excludes such a notion.

If you can see the design in the digestive system, then you are implying there's a designer. Perhaps you'd better hide from all the vitriol you'll receive from commentators who disagree with you.

So just HOW do you explain the digestive system in this context?

On another note, I find it interesting that some people who believe in evolution want to go back to the directions given in the Genesis chapter and resort to eating only vegetarian meals. This reversion being on the basis of morality/ethics. There is no such things in the evolutionary model because there is no absolute standard of moral behaviour there. All things arose spontaneously and at random, so where would morality come from and who does it answer to? The two don't agree - evolution requires no morals.

Telekinetic
2.8 / 5 (9) Jun 25, 2012
"This reversion being on the basis of morality/ethics. There is no such things in the evolutionary model because there is no absolute standard of moral behaviour there. All things arose spontaneously and at random, so where would morality come from and who does it answer to? The two don't agree - evolution requires no morals."-kevinrts

Because we're conscious beings, our conscience has evolved along the way with our physical characteristics. Human morality is innate and instinctual. We have a physical reaction to wrong-doing if we're healthy. There are also laws written from human minds in most civilizations that codify this innate sensibility. I also think that infants are born with these instincts, only to become distorted in adulthood by the neurotic and manipulative forces of the nuclear family, social anxieties, and religious dogma. The immediate victims are women, children, animals, and the environment, but we all suffer in the end.
DavidW
2.7 / 5 (11) Jun 25, 2012
The human diet should primarily be animal based. If you believe in evolution you will realize the importance here because for millions of years this has been mans primary food source. The Paleolithic diet centered around animal flesh.


That's not true. The real truth is that man has been consuming flesh for about a million years. Before that we were not considered man by current science. The previous 7-8 million years was 100% herbivore.

Vegan/vegetarian diets can be a healthy alternative ONLY when food is carefully selected and combined to satisfy the nutritional requirements. Otherwise, these diets can be very dangerous to human beings.


The number 1 killer in the USA is heart disease. Any unbalanced diet is unhealthy. So, what's your point? Because we can eat unhealthy we are suppose to kill for no reason other than personal gratifcation and lying to our own selves?
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.3 / 5 (12) Jun 25, 2012
Wild boars don't eat people. Secondly, empathy is a refinement of human character, whether it's reciprocated or not. I have empathy to a degree for those with zip in their heads.
Wild boars are omnivorous and will eat just about anything including you. And empathy is part of the tribal dynamic... Internal altruism vs external animosity were selected for as the tribes which exhibited these traits would tend to be more cohesive and thus would prevail in conflict. Empathy toward people outside your tribe is learned behavior.
DavidW
2.2 / 5 (10) Jun 25, 2012
Contrary to vegan preachings, mans digestive system is designed for the consumption of animal flesh. You don't need to look further than the human mouth for supporting evidence. Human teeth are great for biting flesh. I know, I've experimented with this on numerous occasions. ;)


That comment is not truthful. We can't chew raw flesh. My evidence? Try. :) This is self-evident in the highest degree.

Guess what else? The number one cause of choking to death for humans is on flesh. Dogs and bears, omnivores, dont have this problem.
Your response is filled with fantastic statements to deny the truth. We are not supposed to be vegans. We are supposed to follow the truth. The truth says that we did kill each other for a very long time. This is not an excuse to continue killing each other anymore than to continue killing and harming animals for the sole purpose of personal gratification.
Turritopsis
2.2 / 5 (11) Jun 25, 2012
Isn't sashimi the greatest? Mmm...
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.3 / 5 (10) Jun 25, 2012
The number 1 killer in the USA is heart disease. Any unbalanced diet is unhealthy. So, what's your point? Because we can eat unhealthy we are suppose to kill for no reason other than personal gratifcation and lying to our own selves?
Your 'balanced diet' did not exist before nutritionists invented it. Pleistoceners ate what they could find and what was in season. It can be argued that modern diets are distinctly unbalanced as they do not allow for different needs at different times of the year.

Most of the domesticated foods available to eat do not resemble those we evolved on, being constantly selected for quantity vs quality. Your veggies are devoid of nutrients and full of contaminents. Grasses for instance were the last things a hunter/gatherer would eat as they take the most energy to gather and prepare vs the energy they provide.

Grasses are not something we should be eating, and gluten alone may be the main reason for the obesity epidemic.
and7barton
1 / 5 (3) Jun 25, 2012
Quote- Vendicar_Decarian
13 hours ago
Didn't Jehova formeth the monkey -- dust from the ground???

Ah ! - Ground monkey-dust, sprinkle it on your salad !
Milou
1 / 5 (6) Jun 25, 2012
It seem to me the article is about the mind and not the animal(s). If a mind is alive it will resolve complexity issues. (it is its function). Given all the comments above our brains are trying to resolve "A" justification. The degree of complexity of resolving complex issues is dependent on the evolution of the mind vs tools. Give a monkey an ipad (tool) and it will eventually try to understand it. Give him a banana, no questions asked, he already understands it (food). Seems to be more about mind vs tools available (perceived).

Are we justified eating or experimenting with another live "mind"? I have no further comments???
PBeaudoin
1.4 / 5 (5) Jun 25, 2012
When it becomes essential to human law and constitution to respect the seamless line of intelligence between all forms, our experiments will greatly improve their long term relevence. For example, a baboom can learn what is and is not a four letter word, and we may claim they know the word KITE but not what a KITE is, but anyone whom goes without being imprinted by an influential event will retain nothing of relevence; as such, the child that receives no banana on a beautiful spring day, where sustenance is delivered on a sceneic beach over a picnic blanket, while their father sends a kite aloft high in the sky, blocking the sun's face to make a dream inducing eclipse; may never be a scientist able to react to a test that indicates if they can describe what "A Day at the beach" means, or what a banana means in an emotional upswelling of significance that was planted by worldly and creative thinking. Perhaps the greatest bane is poor visionary experience for the extent of the body
DavidW
1.7 / 5 (9) Jun 25, 2012
Your 'balanced diet' did not exist before nutritionists invented it. Pleistoceners ate what they could find and what was in season. It can be argued that modern diets are distinctly unbalanced as they do not allow for different needs at different times of the year.

Most of the domesticated foods available to eat do not resemble those we evolved on, being constantly selected for quantity vs quality. Your veggies are devoid of nutrients and full of contaminents. Grasses for instance were the last things a hunter/gatherer would eat as they take the most energy to gather and prepare vs the energy they provide.

Grasses are not something we should be eating, and gluten alone may be the main reason for the obesity epidemic.


Excuses to behave as a pedophile. Quit pissing down my back and telling me it's raining.
Vendicar_Decarian
1.4 / 5 (5) Jun 25, 2012
At 180 and sought after by the football team, there wasn't much likelihood of that happening.

"I'm not the one that stuffed you into that locker every day between second and third period." - HatersGonnaHate

Is there anything other than hate that makes you fabricate such nonsense?

If you need to hate something... Hate yourself for being an inferior.
DavidW
2.6 / 5 (10) Jun 25, 2012
Hate yourself for being an inferior.

None of us can change the past. This is truth. Therefore the truth is we are equal under the truth. Please stop calling yourself inferior. We are all important because the most important self-evident truth says we are, and no for no other reason. It is enough for us to be equally important, however our own importance is never above the truth.
Telekinetic
3 / 5 (10) Jun 25, 2012
12. Diet:

" Wild boar are omnivorous and will consume a large variety of food items. Typically, plant material accounts for 90% of their diet and animal matter the remaining 10%. Plant matter consists of roots, bulbs and tubers (unearthed by rooting with their long snouts) and fruit and berries. Animal matter can consist of mice, birds eggs, snakes, lizards, worms, beetles and centipedes and carrion. The diet changes to accommodate seasonally available items and forest fruits (for example, acorns, beech mast, chestnuts, olives) are particularly important in the autumn as these protein rich foods enable the sows to be in peak breeding condition. In times of shortage, agricultural crops may be raided, particularly fields of maize, turnips and potatoes."

Chances are slim to none that you'll ever come across a wild boar unless you're hunting, and they generally avoid humans unless threatened or cornered. Their habitat is under stress from human activity.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.2 / 5 (13) Jun 25, 2012
Surely if humans "evolved" then there is no such thing as having been "designed". Evolution by it's very definition excludes such a notion.
Well Kevin is right for once - but for the wrong reasons.
So just HOW do you explain the digestive system in this context?
Well how do you explain it in the context of a Perfect Creator? If we are created in his image then poor god is prone to indigestion, ulcers, colitis, and polyps. And rectal cancer. And he likely has trouble digesting dairy products and gluten, those perfect foods we are Designed to eat.

And why is it we are supposed to eat fermented milk meant for baby cows? Does god eat this too? Anybody else have comments on gods poor design abilities? The appendix?

No I know the reason we suffer Kevin - eve ate the pomegranate. So she bleeds once a month and we have spastic colons right?
wiyosaya
5 / 5 (1) Jun 25, 2012
It seems more and more that the difference between the other apes and humans is less about intelligence, in the sense of general problem solving ability on an individual level, and much more about the expanded language ability of humans, which leverages groups intelligence and knowledge, and allows us to accumulate knowledge over historical time, and build up a civilization.

This also happens with animals. Take, for instance, the monkeys in Japan that bathe in the warm springs. They learn(ed) this from other monkeys. http://news.natio...eys.html
wiyosaya
3 / 5 (2) Jun 25, 2012
The answer to this question has been around for a long time, and it is found in Genesis 2:7. This set apart man from animals for eternity.

Sounds like you believe this cannot be applied to animals. Interesting.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.1 / 5 (11) Jun 25, 2012
This reversion being on the basis of morality/ethics. There is no such things in the evolutionary model because there is no absolute standard of moral behaviour there. All things arose spontaneously and at random
'Morality' was selected fo whenever it conveyed a reproductive advantage to individuals, families, or tribes. A mother bear will defend it's cubs to the death and sacrifice it's comfort to aid in their survival. This is 'moral'.

Altruism within tribes is evolutionarily selected for.
http://rechten.el...RID2.pdf

-Similarly, in the context of individuals, families, and tribes, animosity toward enemies is MORAL and selected for.
PussyCat_Eyes
1.5 / 5 (11) Jun 25, 2012
Contrary to vegan preachings, mans digestive system is designed for the consumption of animal flesh. You don't need to look further than the human mouth for supporting evidence. Human teeth are great for biting flesh. I know, I've experimented with this on numerous occasions. ;)
- Turritopsis

Experience is the best teacher, for sure. But I, for one, will forego all other flesh except for these 4, namely, the pig, chicken, steer, and saltwater fish. Everything else is safe from my palate, except for strawberries and other fruits and veggies. No chimps will ever pass my lips, I can guarantee that.
:)
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.4 / 5 (9) Jun 25, 2012
This also happens with animals. Take, for instance, the monkeys in Japan that bathe in the warm springs. They learn(ed) this from other monkeys
Animal culture
http://en.wikiped..._culture
The answer to this question has been around for a long time, and it is found in Genesis 2:7. This set apart man from animals for eternity.
How many religionists don't know their own book?

"18 I also said to myself, As for humans, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals." ecc3

-Of course Ecclesiastes was only meant for priests.
HatersGonnaHate
1.8 / 5 (10) Jun 25, 2012
At 180 and sought after by the football team, there wasn't much likelihood of that happening.



Venereal,

Your definition of "likely" is rather amusing. Considering we all know this locker situation to be the absolute and unadulterated truth. But I don't doubt you were sought out by the football team. You most certainly would have been an outstanding water boy had you accepted the head coach's offer.
Citrus
1 / 5 (6) Jun 25, 2012
Guiz, show me the proof and evidence of actual progression and evolution through fossils in a species. Go.
Telekinetic
1.8 / 5 (10) Jun 25, 2012
Isn't sashimi the greatest? Mmm...


Shouldn't you be on facebook with an insipid post like that?
PussyCat_Eyes
1.7 / 5 (11) Jun 25, 2012
At 180 and sought after by the football team, there wasn't much likelihood of that happening.



Venereal,

Your definition of "likely" is rather amusing. Considering we all know this locker situation to be the absolute and unadulterated truth. But I don't doubt you were sought out by the football team. You most certainly would have been an outstanding water boy had you accepted the head coach's offer.
- HatersGonnaHate

Or he could've been the football.
Turritopsis
2.2 / 5 (10) Jun 25, 2012
My BP is ~110/60. Resting HR is ~42 BPM. The bulk of my diet comes from meat. I exercise daily. Am in my 30s.

I was a strict vegan a while back. Found the diet hard to adhere to since I love eating meat. I have the utmost respect for vegans because the lifestyle is not an easy one to execute in a healthy manner.

I love sashimi. I'm not forcing you to eat it. I respect the food chain. I don't look down on lions for being carnivorous. I don't think less of buffalos for being herbivores.

You want to be a purist vegan that's fine with me. I don't care what you think of my dietary choices. You don't have to like it. I'm just presenting facts.

Meat is nutritious for human beings, and a meat based diet is a healthy lifestyle choice.
Telekinetic
1.7 / 5 (6) Jun 25, 2012
Guiz, show me the proof and evidence of actual progression and evolution through fossils in a species. Go.

"A new species of ass was also detected on the Russian Plains and appears to be related to European fossils dating back more than 1.5 million years. Carbon dates on the bones reveal that this species was alive as recently as 50,000 years ago."
Looks like they discovered your ancestors, Citrus. Who are you, besides the sockpuppet "Citrus"?
Telekinetic
1.9 / 5 (9) Jun 25, 2012
"Meat is nutritious for human beings, and a meat based diet is a healthy lifestyle choice."-Turritopsis

"Eating red and processed meat associated with increased risk of death-
Individuals who eat more red meat and processed meat appear to have a modestly increased risk of death from all causes and also from cancer or heart disease over a 10-year period, according to a report in the March 23 issue ...
Medicine & Health / Health
Turritopsis
1.8 / 5 (10) Jun 25, 2012
That applies to sedentary overeaters. Meat in too large of quantities will cause digestive blockages (constipation) which increases internal pressure, which translates to heightened blood pressure and a heightened stress on the heart (usually an increase in heart rate). Stress has been shown to increase occurence of cancer.

The problem here is not red meat in the diet. The problem is eating in larger quantities than the body requires and a sedentary lifestyle.
Telekinetic
1.7 / 5 (6) Jun 25, 2012
"The problem here is not red meat in the diet. The problem is eating in larger quantities than the body requires and a sedentary lifestyle."- Turritopsis

"any amount and any type -- appears to significantly increase the risk of premature death, according to a long-range study that examined the eating habits and health of more than 110,000 adults for more than 20 years.
For instance, adding just one 3-ounce serving of unprocessed red meat -- picture a piece of steak no bigger than a deck of cards -- to one's daily diet was associated with a 13% greater chance of dying during the course of the study."
Turritopsis
1.5 / 5 (8) Jun 25, 2012
What was the source of red meat? Venison? Rabbit? Why weren't they eating more sea food and fresh water fish? The Paleolithic diet included red meat. It was not exclusively red meat that was eaten.

Red meat is regarded as unhealthy because of saturated fats, but saturated fats are necessary for biological processes, such as for energy and hormone production.

Again, the problem is not meat (including red meat), but sedentary lifestyles and overeating.
Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (1) Jun 25, 2012
I've noticed that it is quite common for Conservatives to manufacture some fantasy and then use it to express hate against someone.

For example: manufacturing the lie that Obama is a Muslim and then expressing their religious intolerance in the form of hate directed at him.

Or in their manufacture of the claim that he isn't an American, when his birth certificate has been validated multiple times by his birth state.


"Considering we all know this locker situation to be the absolute and unadulterated truth." - HatersGonnaHate

Yes... Rage... Hate... Hate yourself for being the inferior that you are.
Turritopsis
1 / 5 (6) Jun 25, 2012
"Meat is nutritious for human beings, and a meat based diet is a healthy lifestyle choice."-Turritopsis
"Eating red and processed meat associated with increased risk of death-


And my statement was much broader than the "red and processed meats" that you have lead the discussion into.
Turritopsis
1 / 5 (6) Jun 26, 2012
Unhealthy people tend to choose red meat over white. It is not because of the red meat that they are unhealthy, they're unhealthy because they don't exercise. Red meat is cheaper than white to purchase. They opt for quantity because they are already unhealthy and they are overeaters looking for more food.

Red meat is getting a bad rap but it is undeserved, red meat is very healthy and full of necessary nutrients.

The study you point to is garbage. The red meat is not the cause of early death, but instead the early diers just choose to eat red meat.
Turritopsis
1.9 / 5 (9) Jun 26, 2012
Correlation does not imply causation. Red meat being found in the diets of less healthy people does not mean that red meat has made these people less healthy.
HatersGonnaHate
1.6 / 5 (7) Jun 26, 2012
Venereal,

I've yet to lie on this comment section. You, on the other hand tried to make us believe that an athletic organization showed interest in you. This is as laughable as the claim that you aren't a known pedophile.

Kind Regards
Mike_Massen
1.5 / 5 (8) Jun 26, 2012
verkle referred to some odd religious dogma...
The answer to this question has been around for a long time, and it is found in Genesis 2:7. This set apart man from animals for eternity.
So a probabilistic observation from Moses is somehow some sort of fact from a deity that cant communicate well, its plainly obvious all animals are different including the various types of humans...

Verkle, please get with the program, a bible isnt any sort of Science, it has No discipline whatsoever... And any comments made by such bible can be interpreted so widely its not a good source of information at all...
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (6) Jun 27, 2012
Unhealthy people tend to choose red meat over white. It is not because of the red meat that they are unhealthy, they're unhealthy because they don't exercise. Red meat is cheaper than white to purchase. They opt for quantity because they are already unhealthy and they are overeaters looking for more food.
None of this is true. The red meat we eat today is a poor replacement for what we evolved on. Livestock, like all other domesticated food, has been constantly selected for quantity over quality.

Red meat is full of fat and additives. We desire it because it was a major food for a million years and our innards are adapted to it. But the stuff we have to eat today is not what we used to hunt.

Consider the amount of effort it took to stalk and kill and butcher and transport a water buffalo or a mammoth. The people who did this had to be in prime shape. They were able to do it because of the nutrient density of the stuff they ate.
Turritopsis
1 / 5 (5) Jun 27, 2012
None of this is true.

I wouldn't say none of it, but it is a gross generalization on my part, I'll admit, this was more of a rant than anything. It's not a price per quantity thing (although, some of the time that is the case). Truth is, people choose red meat because it is tasty. So I agree with you, the first paragraph (the one you quoted), is not so true. I wouldn't say that 'none of it is true', but I can't say it is 100% true for 100% of the cases.

I completely agree with the rest of your post though. I think it would be a great idea to stick a large conveyor belt underneath our livestock to keep them running, and to feed them high quality food. The healthier our food, the healthier we'll be.
Turritopsis
1 / 5 (6) Jun 27, 2012
Although not as healthy as the bovine meat our distant ancestors ate, the beef we find in our supermarkets is not as unhealthy as it is portrayed to be. You can buy a steak from your supermarket and still be a healthy individual, as long as you practice moderation and get your daily dose of exercise.
Turritopsis
1 / 5 (6) Jun 27, 2012
The problem is nobody takes personal responsibility for their health anymore, that's what sparked my rant. We try to blame everything else but our own fat lazy butts. Saturated fats found in red meat give us the energy necessary to exercise, plus, they help us produce the hormones which we need to sustain healthy lifestyles.
Telekinetic
1 / 5 (5) Jun 27, 2012
"Most U. S. beef cattle are implanted with synthetic hormones in feedlots prior to slaughter. On January 1, 1989 the European Economic Community (EEC) placed a ban on hormone-treated U. S. meat, preventing U. S. meat products from being sold in any European nations. The United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) has challenged the ban and accused the EEC of unfair trade practices, but the action of European governments raises some important questions about American meat."
You know nothing of which you speak, Turritopsis. You're not an expert or in the least bit qualified to make pronouncements about what is safe to eat. You're an imbecile to contradict scientific evidence that red meat is bad for your health. It's outrageous, really, that you dismiss a study of over 100,000 people over 20 years as garbage. I think the meat you're eating must be affecting your brain.
Turritopsis
1 / 5 (6) Jun 28, 2012
Buy organic. Your fruits and veggies are also given growth hormones and are sprayed with antibiotics, Mr. Vegan, just as beef is. If you're worried buy organic only.

So there's your solution.
Turritopsis
1.1 / 5 (7) Jun 28, 2012
You're an imbecile to contradict scientific evidence that red meat is bad for your health.

There is no scientific evidence that backs this up. The evidence shows that red meat is found in the diets of less healthy people. There is a difference.
Turritopsis
1.2 / 5 (6) Jun 28, 2012
If the saturated fat that you ingest gets used-up during exercise, then what? Any biologists reading this? Please answer. Provided enough fibre is in the diet to allow for easy passage. If the saturated fat is burned off, what are the negative side effects of eating red meat coming from clean, disease free sources?
Turritopsis
1.2 / 5 (6) Jun 28, 2012
http://www.webmd....red-meat

The most thorough article as it contains a consortium of opinions, both positive and negative from multiple professionals on the subject.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.6 / 5 (7) Jun 28, 2012
I completely agree with the rest of your post though. I think it would be a great idea to stick a large conveyor belt underneath our livestock to keep them running, and to feed them high quality food. The healthier our food, the healthier we'll be.
Livestock is still artificial. Who knows what is no longer in there? Better to eat free-ranging buffalo and venison. And mammoth. And to run them down and kill them yourself.
Turritopsis
1 / 5 (5) Jun 28, 2012
I completely agree with the rest of your post though. I think it would be a great idea to stick a large conveyor belt underneath our livestock to keep them running, and to feed them high quality food. The healthier our food, the healthier we'll be.
Livestock is still artificial. Who knows what is no longer in there? Better to eat free-ranging buffalo and venison. And mammoth. And to run them down and kill them yourself.

We do know what is in there. That is the reason we know that they are pumped with hormones, we run tests on the meat.
Turritopsis
1 / 5 (6) Jun 28, 2012
Free-market capitalism is to blame for the quality. If livestock farmers were paid equal wages regardless of the amount of food they were producing, there would be no incentive for them to induce growth (and they wouldn't be spending their pretty pennies on hormones either).
Turritopsis
1.7 / 5 (6) Jun 28, 2012
Wouldn't it make sense that anything produced for the masses be controlled by the masses?

Just some food for thought.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (6) Jun 28, 2012
We do know what is in there.
We dont know ALL of what is in there, nor what it may or may not be doing to us. Scientists still do not know what makes us fat.
http://www.kmov.c...195.html

-We do not know what we are lacking but a possible way to find out would be to study pleistocene diets, including seasonal variations, and including things like bush meat. Cannibalism was a lot more common than we may want to admit because of the state of chronic tribal warfare that accompanied our evolution, and of the interchangeability of hunting and fighting. Humans are immune to certain prions most likely as a result of the consumption of human flesh. And ape meat is as close to human meat as one can get. It is a favorite of many african indigenes and very difficult to get them to give up.
http://www.bushme...ode/2258
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (6) Jun 28, 2012
"Others will be troubled by the ideas that our DNA contains evidence that our ancestors practiced cannibalism"
http://www.amazon...s=Before the Dawn%3A Recovering the Lost History of Our Ancestors
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (6) Jun 28, 2012
Free-market capitalism is to blame for the quality. If livestock farmers were paid equal wages regardless of the amount of food they were producing, there would be no incentive for them to induce growth
We have been domesticating cattle for 10,000 years. They have constantly been selected for quantity of meat over quality. Their physiology has been drastically changed as a result of being fed domesticated foodstocks, themselves being altered by similar means.
http://en.wikiped..._animals

-Their internal chemistry is drastically different. They are sedentary their whole lives which alters their metabolism and immune systems. They have been subjected to diseases unique to, and arising from, domestication; and their immune systems, like ours, are overactive and self-destructive.

They are forced to live in environments which they would shun in the wild. This changes their mental state which further alters their chemistry and internal biome.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (6) Jun 28, 2012
We are just starting to understand the complex relationship between our physiology and the biological community that exists within us.
http://www.youtub...dIzIuYkc

"the average human bacterial load is approximately 2 to 9 pounds..."

-And what about this relationship in the animals we consume? How does it affect us? And how has the process of domestication altered it, even before we started pumping livestock full of antibiotics?
Turritopsis
1 / 5 (5) Jun 28, 2012
Free-market capitalism is to blame for the quality.
-By this I mean in relation to the quality of meat outside of North America.

But excellent points Otto.
Turritopsis
1.9 / 5 (7) Jun 28, 2012
Livestock is kept on smaller land because less land is less expensive than more land. - this is profit maximization - we could raise free-range grass fed cattle and allow for natural maturation if it weren't for profiteering practices.

The interest of corporations is not to produce healthy cattle, but to profit. This is the root of the problem.

10,000 years ago our bovine spent nights sleeping in barns (Domesticated). During the day they were taken out to pasture (which still takes place in many parts of the world).

The problem is clearly profit maximizing practices. Pump them full of hormones so they're ready for slaughter sooner and so there is more meat to sell. Confine them into as small of a space as possible and minimize expenditure.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (7) Jun 28, 2012
We didnt evolve on domesticated animals. We havent had time to adapt to domesticated foods. We are still configured to thrive on wild hunted and gathered foods. Evidence for this is gluten and lactose intolerance among many other allergies we dont know the cause of.

Hunter gatherers were and are smarter and healthier than we are because they consume what they evolved to consume.
http://en.wikiped...hic_diet
http://www.time.c...,00.html
http://www.kajama...ageNum=1
Turritopsis
1 / 5 (6) Jun 28, 2012
From experience, I can tell you, after eating wild game meat I feel healthier than after eating domesticated meat. So, definitely no contention there.
Turritopsis
1.6 / 5 (7) Jun 28, 2012
To be clear though, most of my food comes from supermarkets. The hormone full fruits and vegetables, hormone full meats. My vital signs are good and I am happy with my health.

Although not optimal, our hormone full foods are not as bad as they're demonized to be.

You want to be healthier? Reduce stress. Exercise. Practice portion control.

You could go out hunting and kill a sickly animal by mistake. At this point you're better off going with hormone filled meats. At least they're tested for illness and treated with antibiotics.

Exercise will utilize the saturated fats you ingest as energy. The proteins will help rebuild muscle tissue.
blackwel
1 / 5 (3) Jun 28, 2012
my roomate's aunt makes $83/hr on the laptop. She has been without work for 8 months but last month her pay was $8682 just working on the laptop for a few hours. Read more on this site...NuttyRich dot com
Anorion
1 / 5 (3) Jun 30, 2012
monkeys are smart, they can even read and write.
proof, they even post comments on phys org,
you probably seen their comments sometime, they called kevin, verkl, julien,....
perrycomo
1 / 5 (8) Jun 30, 2012
It is about the supposed intelligence of apes and and at the end it is completely off-topic babbling about food . All those experiments with animals only succeed with instant rewards of the animals with food . It is like a circus , you train the animals and they get a reward . The main difference between an animal and homo sapiens is a consciousness that is able to reign the senses . That is something we don't see in other creatures , they are all dominantly ruled by their senses , their consciousnesses are constantly unified with their senses . That is the 1.3 % difference . A chimp or baboon doesn't move one inch if he doesn't get payed with a banana . lol .
casualjoe
not rated yet Jun 30, 2012
A chimp or baboon doesn't move one inch if he doesn't get payed with a banana . lol .

The same could be said for a lot of humans too.
SatanLover
1 / 5 (4) Jun 30, 2012
I am sure there are plenty of chimps in the club who can tell you all about what they think.
A2G
1 / 5 (5) Jul 01, 2012
Some monkeys act just like humans.

http://www.washin...ory.html

DavidW
1.6 / 5 (7) Jul 07, 2012
To enslave and kill animals needlessly (for sole purpose of personal gratification) is a sickness.

Have you seen the evidence? Most people cry. Ever seen a cow ground alive? A pig disemboweled alive? A dog put in an oven alive? By asking others to do our killing the killers become desensitized and become completely brutal.

When we are sick/addicted and/or deceived the human brain seeks out fantastic excuses to justify our behavior.

We cannot justify needlessly killing animals that we bred to be eaten any more then we can justify killing each other because we have done it in the past. Neither can be justified and so are not truthful to do. We must not attempt to place ourselves above the truth. Attempting to do so is as fantastic as saying, I am not alive, or that, I can change the past. Its not truthful reality. Truth comes first, 100%. Whatever people have done in the past is irrelevant. If it is needless and still done then it is deception and/or sickness. Look!