Social welfare cuts ultimately come with heavy price, researchers say

May 24, 2012
Photo by L. Brian Stauffer

(Phys.org) -- Slashing government funding for Medicaid, food stamps and other programs that serve the poor – while politically popular with some lawmakers and many conservatives – may do more harm than good to the economy and cost taxpayers more in the long run, suggests a report by researchers at the University of Illinois.

Government spending on public benefits programs promotes economic well-being in several ways – stimulating local, state and national economies; creating jobs; generating tax revenue and increasing economic security, the researchers found.

A team led by Mary Keegan Eamon, a faculty member in the School of Social Work, analyzed studies on the four main types of public benefits programs – cash assistance, public health insurance, food assistance and public housing – provided to low-income households in the U.S. and the advantages these programs accrue to non-recipients.

Federal and state lawmakers are considering multibillion-dollar cuts to programs for the poor, including the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, formerly known as , in attempts to reign in the national debt and states’ budgetary shortfalls.

However, focusing on direct expenditures alone ignores the cost savings these programs provide to taxpayers and the private sector, especially over the long term, Eamon said.

As an example, Eamon pointed to the Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants and Children, which serves 9 million low-income women and children each month and is among the federal programs targeted for significant cuts in the coming fiscal year. By providing nutritious food and medical care, the program prevents low-birth-weight babies, significantly reducing Medicaid costs and expenditures for services related to developmental problems caused by nutritional deficiencies.

“We spend less on Supplemental Security Income for disabled children, hospital costs during the baby’s first few months, educational modifiers and other types of programs that are the result of the baby and its mother not having the nutrients and medical care that they needed prenatally,” Eamon said.

A cost-benefit analysis by the U.S. General Accounting Office in 1992 found that each federal dollar spent on WIC returns an estimated $3.50 to federal, state, and local governments and private payers – saving an estimated $1 billion over 18 years.

Expenditures on public benefits programs – public health insurance, public housing, food programs and the Earned Income Tax credit for low-income workers – have been linked by numerous researchers to increases in state and/or local tax revenue and economic activity. Increased consumer spending and economic activity from receipt of public benefits positively affect employment, increase earnings and enhance property values, even in more affluent neighborhoods, indirectly benefitting non-recipients.

Spending cutbacks work in reverse – costing jobs and depressing wages and property values.

A recent analysis indicated that state Medicaid expenditures – along with federal matching funds – generated about 3.4 million jobs and wages of more than $133 billion during Fiscal Year 2005. Increases in the Earned Income Tax Credit also create jobs, studies indicate.

Despite demonstrated cost savings and economic gains, public benefits programs and their recipients continue to be stigmatized as financial burdens. Some conservatives claim that America’s social policy has failed, that government expenditures are driving up rather than reducing poverty rates and are impeding economic growth.

“It’s been shown time and time again that there’s a correlation between the spending that a country does and poverty rates,” Eamon said. “The more you spend, the less poverty there is. So that says to me that the reason we have poor people in this country is because we don’t spend enough on anti-poverty programs, not that we spend too much.”

Non-recipients of public benefits gain indirectly in a number of ways – economically and non-economically – from government spending on programs that primarily serve the poor. Politicians and activists who want to preserve funding for these programs could rally political and public support by appealing to non-recipients’ self-interests, the researchers said.

According to one study, more than half of Americans will live in poverty at some time during adulthood.

Reframing economic hardship as a common occurrence that is caused by structural problems within society rather than personal failings could rally political and societal support for government investment in public benefits programs, Eamon said.

Rather than calling programs “welfare” or even “means-tested benefits,” lawmakers and advocates might decrease negative perceptions of programs and their recipients by promoting programs as forms of “social insurance” that minimize financial risk.

“State spending on can be reframed from a tax burden to an economic gain because the federal government matches state funds, which in turn enhances state and local economies (e.g., provide payments to health care providers, support jobs, and increase income),” the researchers wrote.

The authors concurred that framing government spending on public benefits as an economic stimulus appears to be a good strategy as well, especially during economic downturns.

Even if government spending on public benefits does not generate more economic benefits than it costs, society still gains from indirect non-economic benefits. These include satisfaction from fulfilling humanitarian and spiritual values, such as ensuring that every citizen has access to needed health care and that children do not go to bed hungry.

Co-authors on the study were social work professor Chi-Fang Wu and Saijun Zhang, a postdoctoral research associate in the Children and Family Research Center.

The study appeared in the journal Children and Youth Services Review.

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CapitalismPrevails
2.3 / 5 (38) May 24, 2012
LOL, what a disgusting piece of left-wing college progaganda?. It amuses me how Physorg posts these studies from sources which are obviously corrupted. So if these programs benefit society, how come they produce more and more debt? Oh right because we haven't raised taxes enough. As if raising taxes consecutively over time and demanding a different result isn't insane. You don't need to conduct a study to figure out that paying someone to fail is going to make that someone fail more often then not It' fairly self-evident. Indian reservations, urban projects, etc. are the examples of demographics receiving social welfare for decades. And what do they have to show for it all this time? Just more poverty and crime because they take in more than they produce leading to scarcity and therefor poverty. All so we can have the external optics of good intentions but not end results.
ryggesogn2
2.2 / 5 (31) May 24, 2012
Slashing government funding for Medicaid, food stamps and other programs that serve the poor

These programs ARE bankrupt.
Why not cut tax rates, cut the size and scope of the state promoting the creation of new wealth, new jobs and 'serve' the poor by getting out of the way of opportunity?
But this takes power out of the hands of the socialists.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.2 / 5 (26) May 24, 2012
Nope. The programs aren't bankrupt, the America is bankrupt, morally, ethically, intellectually, and fiscally.

"These programs ARE bankrupt." - RyggTard

But Bankruptcy of the American Government has long been the Republican/Libertarian plan.

The "starve the beast" plan to bankrupt the U.S. government has been in place in the Republican party and Libertarian propaganda groups for the last 40 years.

Libertarain/Randite RyggTard should be celebrating his victory rather than complaining about the bankruptcy that he and his brothers in crime have produced.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.2 / 5 (25) May 24, 2012
An opinion brought to you by the Deniers of Global Warming, where any reality that strays from the Libertarian Ideological line is necessarily a "corrupt" reality.

"It amuses me how Physorg posts these studies from sources which are obviously corrupted." - CapitalismFails

I wonder if the American people will ever grow enough brainpower to realize that CapitalismFails and his accomplices have done everything in their power to sabotage the American economy and impoverish the American people.

What will be the retribution against the Libertarian/Randite criminals?
Noumenon
3.1 / 5 (93) May 24, 2012
You don't need to conduct a study to figure out that paying someone to fail is going to make that someone fail more often then not It's fairly self-evident.


Not to liberals and the mush headed far left, who want to continue spending and printing money. They desire to devalue the dollar because it's a form of redistribution of wealth.

The size of government needs to be drastically reduced. The budget needs to be balanced as a matter of law.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.9 / 5 (30) May 24, 2012
Money supply growth has been on average flat under Obama.

http://www.shadow...y-charts

Not positive as Noumentard and other Conservative Liars have dishonestly claimed.

M3 up over 10%, Bush Printing Money Like a Tin Horn Dictator, Hides It, US Economy On The Rocks?

http://www.dailyk...e-Rocks-

"Not to liberals and the mush headed far left, who want to continue spending and printing money." - NumenTard
Noumenon
3.1 / 5 (93) May 24, 2012
I wonder if the American people will ever grow enough brainpower to realize that CapitalismFails and his accomplices have done everything in their power to sabotage the American economy and impoverish the American people.


The great American economy was built on free market capitalism, creating value and wealth,... not by people subsistent on government cheese. The national debt is built on government incompetence and inefficientcy with the dollar. Everyone knows this except for commie radical wannabes like VD, and know nothing do-gooders that don't think beyond what emotionally "sounds like the caring thing to do".

The more 'Occupy Wall Streeters' there is the worst for the economy because they TAKE rather than create value.

Creating gov dependancy is an infliction upon people, as it weakens them for generations,.. it ensures a constant flow of democratic voters.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.2 / 5 (23) May 24, 2012
The size of the U.S. government has already been reduced to 50 percent of the size it held in 1960.

"The size of government needs to be drastically reduced." - Noumentard

Government size has never been a real issue. But it has been a mantra through which the Republicans and Libertarians have used to bankrupt the American State in accordance to their "Starve the Beast of Gobderment through bankruptcy" program.

Vendicar_Decarian
2.8 / 5 (31) May 24, 2012
No, it was built on the murdered bodies of Native Americans, Chinese slaves who built America's rail system, and Negro Slaves who worked on America's plantations.

"The great American economy was built on free market capitalism, creating value and wealth" - NumenTard

What Conservatives like NumenTard want is a new era of slavery for Americans who will soon find themselves too poor to do anything but work for their corporate masters, who - wouldn't you know it - really run the nation.

Vendicar_Decarian
3.3 / 5 (21) May 24, 2012
And as we all know.. Wallstreet generates "value".

Ahahahahahahahahah........

"The more 'Occupy Wall Streeters' there is the worst for the economy because they TAKE rather than create value." - Numentard

The rioting in the streets of America, against American Corporatism, AKA Fascism, has just begin.
Noumenon
3.2 / 5 (87) May 24, 2012
No, it was built on the murdered bodies of Native Americans, Chinese slaves who built America's rail system, and Negro Slaves who worked on America's plantations.


You really had to go back pretty far didn't you. Desperate?

Slavery was a product and condition of Africa itself, as it was ingrained in their culture before the export of slaves to western countries. Africans participated and profited themselves.

In any case, this has more to do with the unfortunate history of humanity, than capitalism itself,... that whenever a civilized people finds, what amounts to, relative savages, they reason that they're better off in a civilized society in whatever condition, than the state they were found in.

Also, you must realize that the native indians, and Africans of the time, were far from being any better. The Indians slaughtered each other constantly.

The rail system and looms were not designed nor bought by slaves.
Russkiycremepuff
1.2 / 5 (19) May 24, 2012
@Vendicar
This Mary Keegan Eamon must have been born only last year, for the nonsense she is spouting. I believe that there were less poor people in America in the 1950s than there is now, according to demographics for that time as compared to this year.
I say put them all to work at whichever job each one is most able. And the mothers on welfare must have the same threat as in China, that all future pregnancies will be aborted without their consent. That is the only way to stop the baby-making machines.
- "Its been shown time and time again that theres a correlation between the social welfare spending that a country does and poverty rates, Eamon said. The more you spend, the less poverty there is. So that says to me that the reason we have poor people in this country is because we dont spend enough on anti-poverty programs, not that we spend too much. -
Yes, that says to her. This is one of the cheerleaders for porch sitters and is true Socialist Useful Idiot.
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (20) May 24, 2012
The 'progressives' are critical of Wall Street but they are a product of 'progressive' socialism.
National govts essentially own the banks with fiat currency laws and thousands of regulations.
This is precisely what the 'progressives' want, economic control, so why do they condemn their creation?
Noumenon
3.2 / 5 (83) May 24, 2012
And as we all know.. Wallstreet generates "value".

Ahahahahahahahahah........

"The more 'Occupy Wall Streeters' there is the worst for the economy because they TAKE rather than create value." - Numentard

The rioting in the streets of America, against American Corporatism, AKA Fascism, has just begin.


There is nothing intrinsically wrong with Corporatism, nor profit motive. In fact it has already proven to be a powerful force for good in the world as life expectancy across the globe has improved as a direct result.

Even Obama understands this, saying "the free market is the greatest force for economic progress in human history".

You and those like you are entirely irrelevant to this countries future. The idiots in the Occupy "movement" are irrelevant as well and are nothing more than a pathetic spectacle. Those are just scared kids, with parental authority and dependency still fresh on their empty & malleable minds, which they associate with far left government.
Russkiycremepuff
1.6 / 5 (26) May 24, 2012
@Vendicar
In the Soviet Union, we were taught that Black people in America were oppressed and were still living like slaves and had nothing but the clothes on their backs. But when I arrived her 15 years ago, I saw that it was all just propaganda to make us hate the Americans. The Blacks here are often living much better than even many people in my country who have jobs. But the Blacks who are on welfare, stay on welfare and do not want to work. My question to you, Vendicar, is do you think that it is the best thing for porch sitters to allow them to remain sitting on their porch with a bottle of whiskey or wine and the women making babies every time their man comes home from wherever he was? Do you think that is life of quality and pride? Do YOU live that way?
It has nothing to do with the corporations as I have told you before. It is a way of life with such people who are drain on society. Would you be proud to let your son or daughter marry into such a family?
Jonseer
2.3 / 5 (12) May 24, 2012
The Blacks here are often living much better than even many people in my country who have jobs. But the Blacks who are on welfare, stay on welfare and do not want to work.....sitting on their porch with a bottle of whiskey or wine and women making babies every time their man comes home from wherever he was.....such people who are drain on society.....


So how many Black Americans have you actually met and befriended?

No matter what you say, the truth is 0 (zero). Such absolute answers are almost always false and the reasons for believing it due to racism not truth.

I'm not surprised though, considering how you happily believed the lies re the USA, I'm not surprised your behavior continues albeit now the target are "the Blacks".

Being that you are "Russian" that you say this is rich irony considering the # of Russians who IMMEDIATELY RECEIVED TOTAL GOVERNMENT support from the US Govt. on the account of being a persecuted minority in Russia fleeing the USA for freedom.
Russkiycremepuff
1.5 / 5 (16) May 24, 2012
Very many. And yes, it is YOU who are the racist because you refuse to acknowledge the truth. I would not doubt that you are also porch sitter or Socialist useful idiot, Jonseer.
Oh, I remember now. You were also in the Black Holes thread
Russkiycremepuff
1.5 / 5 (24) May 24, 2012
It was the Russian Jews who were supported to leave Russia, not the non-Jewish Russians. WE were not allowed to leave. There are no human "targets". It just happens that there are many Blacks on welfare for generations in America. There are also whites on welfare too. The target is the corrupt Socialist welfare system that promotes the generations to be porch sitters.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (16) May 24, 2012
You made a false claim about America's founding. I have exposed your lie.

You are probably aware that the word "founding" implies beginning. So I necessarily go to the beginning of America to expose your lie.

"You really had to go back pretty far didn't you. Desperate?" - Numentard

In fact it is you who appear desperate to ignore the basis on which America was founded.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (17) May 24, 2012
Yes, yes. We all know the excuses you Republicans use. America didn't employ slavery. The blacks were the slave masters. Besides you had to do it because them blacks were deserving of it right?

It is all documented in the history books on your home planet Conservadopia.

"Slavery was a product and condition of Africa itself, as it was ingrained in their culture before the export of slaves" - NumenTard
Vendicar_Decarian
3.3 / 5 (16) May 24, 2012
And now NumenTard contradicts himself.

Africans profiting from slavery? Isn't profit the very purpose of Capitalism?

What reason would there be for slavery if not for the profit of the slave keepers?

"Africans participated and profited themselves. In any case, this has more to do with the unfortunate history of humanity, than capitalism itself." - NumenTard

Besides, those Niggas deserved it didn't they Tard Boy?
Russkiycremepuff
1.4 / 5 (14) May 24, 2012
Ah yes, the Native Americans. Very nice people and I have met many also. Vendicar, are you aware that before white men came to America, there were cannibal tribes here? It is true. I think the name of the tribe was Caddo, the tribe was in the southwest. A Seattle newspaper had article that said human bones were found buried in a cave and there were the human teeth marks of the bones. It was not too surprising, imo. But I believe that practice of cannibalism was stopped after the invasion from Europe.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.3 / 5 (14) May 24, 2012
Absolutely NumenTard. It is part of American Culture that a life in bondage is better than freedom.

But you just finished claiming the opposite. That America wasn't founded on slavery. And now you justify slavery in America by claiming that early Americans forgot their bibles and reasoned that life in bondage was better than liberty.

"that whenever a civilized people finds, what amounts to, relative savages, they reason that they're better off in a civilized society in whatever condition, than the state they were found in." - NumenTard

NumenTard will say almost any contradictory nonsense to save his Sick Conservative Ideology.
Russkiycremepuff
2.3 / 5 (19) May 24, 2012
Aside from that, the Native Americans are very proud people and willing to work if job is available. The Iroquois Indians were hired to build the skyscrapers in New York City most often, because they were not afraid of the heights. I like Native Americans.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.8 / 5 (17) May 24, 2012
And Americans slaughter themselves continually.

Hence 911 was justified and should clearly be repeated.

"Also, you must realize that the native indians, and Africans of the time, were far from being any better. The Indians slaughtered each other constantly." - Numentard

To Conservatives like NumenTard, even the wars of genocide waged against the Native people of America is justified.

How many Natives were murdered? 8 million? 12 million?

Stalin couldn't have done better.
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (14) May 24, 2012
But they were built by slaves...

http://usslave.bl...ith.html

http://opinionato...ailroad/

"The rail system and looms were not designed nor bought by slaves." - NumenTard

Poor NumenTard. Caught in lie after lie after lie. He is a true Conservative.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.8 / 5 (13) May 24, 2012
I doubt if anyone cares what a pretend Russian says.

"I say put them all to work at whichever job each one is most able. And the mothers on welfare must have the same threat as in China, that all future pregnancies will be aborted without their consent." = Russkie
Russkiycremepuff
1.8 / 5 (15) May 24, 2012
Vendicar, if you are Socialist, you must not remain so. I have said before that Socialists are useful idiots that the porch sitters laugh at and make fun of, because they know that socialists will move heaven and earth, as they say, to keep welfare money in pockets of porch sitters. Communism is much more enlightened and makes sense.
But if you remain socialist, you are then to blame for generations who suck on the collective teat of the taxpayers, and each generation will have no intention to stop such shameful behaviour.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.1 / 5 (15) May 24, 2012
And we have seen what happens without adequate banking regulation. Economic disaster after economic disaster after economic disaster.

Libertarians and Conservatives refuse to learn from the failures of their past, even when those failures are just 4 years old.

"National govts essentially own the banks with fiat currency laws and thousands of regulations." - RyggTard

RyggTard has already forgotten the inconvenient truth of how one of his own ideology produced the housing bubble and allowed it to grow because his Randite ideology held that the banks and other financial institutions would never act in a manner that was against their own self interest.

Now, after the near depression he - Alan Greenspan - caused, he has renounced that aspect of his ideology.

RyggTard is not nearly as smart or as honest.
Russkiycremepuff
1.3 / 5 (12) May 24, 2012
@Vendicar
I am not pretend anything. Where do you get such false idea? Someone is lying about me? Perhaps it is that one who pretends to be you by imitating you with bad imitation? That is the one who insisted in some threads that he thinks I am someone that I am not. Why do you believe such lies?
Vendicar_Decarian
2.8 / 5 (13) May 24, 2012
From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

That is a maxim I live by.

"Communism is much more enlightened and makes sense." - RuskieFake
Vendicar_Decarian
2.8 / 5 (13) May 24, 2012
It is after all the fundamental value of the modern Republican party.

"There is nothing intrinsically wrong with Corporatism, nor profit motive." - NumenTard

"Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism, as it is the merger of corporate and government power." Benito Mussolini

That pretty much summs up the Republican/Libertarian/Randite vision of America doesn't it?
Russkiycremepuff
1.6 / 5 (13) May 24, 2012
Incidentally there was someone who asked you if you are Scott Nudds and Vendicar Dickarian. He also asked if you are a pedophile, and a Palestinian who has terrorist friends. Is it true that you were arrested for threatening George W. Bush?
Vendicar_Decarian
2.5 / 5 (13) May 24, 2012
Define "economic progress", and tell us why "economic progress" has become the greatest form of mass slavery the world has ever seen.

"Even Obama understands this, saying "the free market is the greatest force for economic progress in human history" - NumenTard
Russkiycremepuff
1.7 / 5 (12) May 24, 2012
If you are Scott Nudds, you are famous on websites that tell about you. There is also story that you are now interested in global warming. I assume that the person they talk about is you. They say that you are pedophile and that you and friend wait for young children. Is this true?
Russkiycremepuff
1.7 / 5 (12) May 24, 2012
By your not addressing my concerns, Vendicar_Decarian, I can only assume that the stories about you are true, and that you are Palestinian pedophile who hangs about with Moslem terrorists in Canada. If it is the case, then stay socialist useful idiot all your life, since that is the best thing for you.
Russkiycremepuff
1.7 / 5 (12) May 24, 2012
It appears that Vendicar_Decarian, alias of Scott Nudds has run away to another thread without answering my questions, just as he did when someone else asked him the same questions.
http://phys.org/n...fly.html

I do not like pedophiles, so I will no longer try to convert Vendicar to best political system. It is a shame.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.6 / 5 (12) May 24, 2012
False accusation from a fake Ruskie.

"just as he did when someone else asked him the same questions." - FakeRuskie

There are no question marks in the comments you link to.

Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (12) May 24, 2012
And now fake research from a fake Ruskie.

"I can only assume that the stories about you are true, and that you are Palestinian pedophile who hangs about with Moslem terrorists in Canada" - FakeRuskie

Is that all you have left?

Pathetic.

Vendicar_Decarian
2.6 / 5 (10) May 24, 2012
Odd, I have only been asked that question once before. By one of ParkerTard's sock puppets.

"Is it true that you were arrested for threatening George W. Bush?" - FakeRuskie

Gosh. I wonder whose sock puppet you are.
Noumenon
3.3 / 5 (75) May 24, 2012
But you just finished claiming the opposite. That America wasn't founded on slavery. And now you justify slavery in America by claiming that early Americans forgot their bibles and reasoned that life in bondage was better than liberty.


I never justified slavery, in fact, above I called it an "unfortunate history of humanity". Clearly I was saying how a civilized people had viewed a relative uncivilized people they came upon. There was nothing good about slavery.

Your claim that what America is today, only came about because of slavery, is absurd non-sense. Slavery was a universal phenomena from china to Muslims to Africa to western societies. America fought itself to purge itself of that evil,... then prospered unlike any society in record history. That is a fact.
jamesbuddy
2.3 / 5 (10) May 24, 2012
OK, a couple of notes here, let's be real. The number of people on welfare is far too high, period. Many of those use it to simply buy lottery and that is complete bullshit. I apologize for language but I'm trying to get the point across. On top of that many of them are healthy and more than able to work, more BS. Then there are those who have a food stamp card and just let people use it if they give them cash in return at a discount. These people will never have motivation to work. Stick the fundamentals of the problem. Why do people always complicate it? What needs to be done, needs to be done.
Noumenon
3.3 / 5 (77) May 24, 2012
To Conservatives like NumenTard, even the wars of genocide waged against the Native people of America is justified.

How many Natives were murdered? 8 million? 12 million?

Stalin couldn't have done better.


There was no such war of genocide of Indians,.. that is a flat out lie.

And Americans slaughter themselves continually.
Hence 911 was justified and should clearly be repeated.


But i thought you were morally superior to "Randits" libertarian conservatives,... now I'm confused //sarcasm.

You think 911 was an inside job? I wouldn't be surprised given your obvious over-the-top non-sense, and irrational anti-Americanism.
Noumenon
3.4 / 5 (76) May 24, 2012
But they were built by slaves...

http://usslave.bl...ith.html

"The rail system and looms were not designed nor bought by slaves." - NumenTard

Poor NumenTard. Caught in lie after lie after lie. He is a true Conservative.


Low cost labour. What is your point? Slavery had nothing to do with the existing greatness of the western economies. You're just a clueless irrelevant anti-capitalist radical wannabe twit.

And btw numbnutz, just because a economy has a down turn here and there over time does not render it a failure. I've already explained that the sub-prime market existed because everyone knew it would be backed by gov entities, and lowered lending standards were again the product of the gov in an attempt to increase home ownership.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.2 / 5 (10) May 24, 2012
You did, right after trying to justify America's utilization of it as the foundation of the American Economy.

"I never justified slavery, in fact, above I called it an "unfortunate history of humanity"." - NumenTard

Why lie about comments you just made NumenTard?
Do you really have such a low opinion about yourself?
Smashin_Z_1885
3.7 / 5 (9) May 25, 2012
The destruction and mass murders of hundreds of thousands of Native Americans on this continent, and the complete eradication of numerous cultures, and, the raping and destruction of the planet in general, can be justified thusly: That is what "Civilized" people do! Ha ha . All the rest are "savages". Isn't that just so backward?
Vendicar_Decarian
2.2 / 5 (10) May 25, 2012
Why change the subject NumenTard. Your claim was that the U.S. was founded on Capitalism, when in fact it was founded on slavery as you have tacitly admitted.

"Low cost labour. What is your point? Slavery had nothing to do with the existing greatness of the western economies. " - NumenTard

Vendicar_Decarian
1.7 / 5 (17) May 25, 2012
When it comes from the mouth of a Conservative you pretty much know it is a bald faced lie.

"All the rest are "savages". Isn't that just so backward?" - Smashin

NumenTard is regularly caught lying in order to justify his sick Conservative ideology.

Vendicar_Decarian
2.5 / 5 (11) May 25, 2012
After whining about socialism destroying America, NumenTard states...

"And btw numbnutz, just because a economy has a down turn here and there over time does not render it a failure" - NumenTard

The U.S. federal government now has a conservative created debt of 15.8 trillion.

America is morally, ethically, intellectually and fiscally bankrupt.

NumenTard is clearly suffering from at least three out of 4 of those failures.

Make up your mind Tard Boy. Is America Bankrupt or not?
Noumenon
3.4 / 5 (76) May 25, 2012
From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

That is a maxim I live by. - VD


What motive would those with more ability have to work harder or with more effective value, than those with less ability, when the former's "needs" as defined by the socialist notion of "fairness", are equivalent to the latter?

You see, you can't just be an idealist living in a fantasy land, ... it makes more rational sense to look for mechanisms that cause such processes to function autonomously, that is, on account of the intrinsic nature of the system rather than ad-hoc feel good ideals. Free market capitalism has such natural motive forces, while socialism operates counter to them, and oppresses those who are better than the average,.. government forced mediocrity.
Vendicar_Decarian
1.7 / 5 (18) May 25, 2012
Rewriting history is a favorite tool of Conservatives and Libertarians.

"I've already explained that the sub-prime market existed because everyone knew it would be backed by gov entities" - NumenTard

If everyone knew then why didn't the banks know? And if they did know, then why did they make every effort to rid themselves of the hot potato(e)?

Never mind. There is no need to answer. All we get from you is a stream of nonsense lies told to excuse the chronic failure of your rotten to the core political ideology.

Vendicar_Decarian
1.7 / 5 (18) May 25, 2012
Don't you like having your same philosophy applied to you?

Awwww. Don't that make you the wee hypocrite.

"But i thought you were morally superior to "Randits" libertarian conservatives,... now I'm confused" - NumenTard

I am amused that you used a lower case i. That is all you deserve.
Noumenon
3.4 / 5 (77) May 25, 2012
After whining about socialism destroying America, NumenTard states...

"And btw numbnutz, just because a economy has a down turn here and there over time does not render it a failure" - NumenTard

The U.S. federal government now has a conservative created debt of 15.8 trillion.

America is morally, ethically, intellectually and fiscally bankrupt.

NumenTard is clearly suffering from at least three out of 4 of those failures.

Make up your mind Tard Boy. Is America Bankrupt or not?


Indeed, getting very close to bankruptcy, at the hands of government , not capitalism,... government failure. The government failed in many things including public education, minimizing the welfare state, etc. All more arguments for smaller government. This is why conservatives want smaller gov and more private sector where competition and accountability exists.
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (10) May 25, 2012
Americans are working harder and longer hours today than at any time since records have been kept.

And thanks to American Corportism, American wages are lower now than they were in the 70's while corporations sit on trillions in profits.

Today we learn that HP is laying of 27,000 workers to improve their profit margins.

And all the while cross class mobility in the U.S. is growing ever more remote.

What motivation indeed..

"What motive would those with more ability have to work harder or with more effective value, than those with less ability" - NumenTard

Wage Slavery is good for America. Isn't it?
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (10) May 25, 2012
And as we all know, in America corporations run the government.

"Indeed, getting very close to bankruptcy, at the hands of government , not capitalism,... government failure." - NumenTard

Now I've escaped from the failure of the American system, so the rest of you can just continue to eat each other as far as I am concerned. I really couldn't care less.

But you do provide a wonderful example of grand national failure to the rest of the world.

And it all started with the contempt for America held by Ronald Reagan and the borrow and spend traitors he brought to office.

I read today that Detroit is in such financial trouble that some areas of the city have only a 10 percent occupancy rate and the city will be shutting down the streetlights in those neighborhoods to save money.

Such spectacular American Failure.

Vendicar_Decarian
3.2 / 5 (13) May 25, 2012
Certainly your education has been a failure.

Ignorance plays into the hands of Conservatives. That is why Ignorance is promoted by Conservatives.

"The government failed in many things including public education, minimizing the welfare state, etc." - NumenTard

How sad for you that private schools are actually performing worse than their public school counterparts.

The failure of course, is not the schools. The failure is the failure of America's sick Conservative culture. And the more consrevative it becomes the greater the rate of failure.

Just ask anyone trying to teach evolution in an American Public school.

Noumenon
3.4 / 5 (75) May 25, 2012
Rewriting history is a favorite tool of Conservatives and Libertarians.

"I've already explained that the sub-prime market existed because everyone knew it would be backed by gov entities" - NumenTard

If everyone knew then why didn't the banks know? And if they did know, then why did they make every effort to rid themselves of the hot potato(e)?

Never mind. There is no need to answer. All we get from you is a stream of nonsense lies told to excuse the chronic failure of your rotten to the core political ideology.



No rewriting history, just not mentioned at the Huffington post, so it appears new to you.

It is a fact that lending standards were lowered on account of GOV. housing agencies. The unqualified came out of the woodwork to buy houses. Market boomed. Sub prime loans were the result. They had to go somewhere until the gov started buying them up. Do gooder liberals trying to increase home ownership.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (9) May 25, 2012
Bopahl, the Exxon Valdise and the Gulf oil spill are all wonderful example of American accountability.

"This is why conservatives want smaller gov and more private sector where competition and accountability exists." - Numentard

Conservatives are so fixated on "small gubderment" that they have conspired to destroy their own country to get it.

Execution is the proper punishment for such treason.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (9) May 25, 2012
http://www.youtub...Qx7sjoS8

The above video explains the entire situation.

"It is a fact that lending standards were lowered on account of GOV. housing agencies." - NumenTard

Conservatives chronically mismanage everything they get their hands on.

Noumenon
3.4 / 5 (77) May 25, 2012
Today we learn that HP is laying of 27,000 workers to improve their profit margins.


Do you not understand that had such a company not made these type of decisions for those type of reasons, there would not have been an HP to employ those 27,000 to begin with,... nor the well over 300,000 they currently employ?

Such is free market capitalism that it self regulates and makes itself more efficient and better to compete, and ultimately grow to employ even more. But you, being a reactionary bed-wetter who thinks they should be guaranteed employment despite unworthiness, are frightened of such realities and competition.

"What motive would those with more ability have to work harder or with more effective value, than those with less ability" - Noumenon

I don't think you understood the above question or purposely avoided acknowledging that you did.
Noumenon
3.4 / 5 (77) May 25, 2012
Bopahl, the Exxon Valdise and the Gulf oil spill are all wonderful example of American accountability.


Such accidents are expected having to drill so far off shore. Really the oil industry has a remarkably safe record. Their motive is to not cause such disasters since it ends up costing them. All industries have such accidents, but the tree-hugger left wish to pretend that only big evil oil companies do.
Noumenon
3.4 / 5 (77) May 25, 2012
http://www.youtub...Qx7sjoS8

The above video explains the entire situation.

"It is a fact that lending standards were lowered on account of GOV. housing agencies." - NumenTard

Conservatives chronically mismanage everything they get their hands on.



I'm not watching your dopy video. It is a fact that the government pressured and regulated banks to reduce lending standards, so nearly anyone could over-buy a home. Everything else was the result.

It was the same idiotic liberal mindset that complains about "income inequality". Such things along with segments of low income population not qualifying to buy a home is just a fact of reality in a free society,... not a thing that can be "fixed", without untangling everything that makes a free society to begin with.
Eric_B
1.9 / 5 (13) May 25, 2012
I am on food stamps...

Anyone hiring at a rate where I will be able to support myself and create my own social safety net?

no?

i didn't think so...

work and go into debt/ don't work and go into debt and take the country with you, that is the question ?!?

if you don't like food stamps, apply for them. the will either be approved or you can use civil disobedience to drive the system crazy.

even ayn rand got SSDI in the end, didn't she?

"liberals are giving me lung cancer, not cigarettes," to quote your heroine.
Russkiycremepuff
2 / 5 (16) May 25, 2012
I see you have returned with your lies, VD.
Here are many interesting comments about Vendicar_Decarian/Scott Nudds/Scott Douglas/Vendicar Dickarian, etc. etc.
These sites are over and above the ones from the Phys.org with comments about you, Vendicar.
There are about 7 more pages of websites after the last link.
How is your job as janitor at the school going, VD? As a pedophile, you must love being so close to children.

http://www.freag....t_nudds.

https://groups.go...OBDmT82A

http://science.ni...2cc&

http://www.mombu....711.html

http://www.variou...dds.html

http://www.peekyo...ecarian_
See Documents and Web Results

http://www.spaceb...069.html
Russkiycremepuff
1.9 / 5 (14) May 25, 2012
Russkiycremepuff
1.6 / 5 (25) May 25, 2012
And incidentally, pedophile Vendicar_Decarian, etc., the maxim that you claim to live by, is severely outdated.
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" has outlived its usefulness. Communism is not so concerned about the needs of the ones who choose to not work. You are very much behind the times, VD.
Birger
5 / 5 (5) May 25, 2012
Going back to the article:
"Slashing government funding for Medicaid, food stamps and other programs that serve the poor while politically popular with some lawmakers and many conservatives may do more harm than good to the economy and cost taxpayers more in the long run"
Since society is a complex system, this should not come to a surprise to anyone but the most simple-minded.
Fix one detail, and you may unbalance another. This is well-known by engineers and any one who studies complex systems.
Of course, this requires going into the debate with a willingnes to learn from new information rather than damning the unbelievers.
Birger
4.2 / 5 (5) May 25, 2012
"By providing nutritious food and medical care, the program prevents low-birth-weight babies, significantly reducing Medicaid costs and expenditures for services related to developmental problems caused by nutritional deficiencies"

-What's so hard to understand about that?? Conservatives in Europe and even Canada recognises there are hidden costs downstream of budget cuts. It is only in USA that conservatives are so wilfully ignorant.
Birger
4.4 / 5 (7) May 25, 2012
This comment is a whopper:
"It is a fact that the government pressured and regulated banks to reduce lending standards, so nearly anyone could over-buy a home. Everything else was the result"

The sub-prime mortgages became possible when bank regulations going back to the 1940s were scrapped. This de-regulation was suggested during Bush Sr. and implemented during Clinton.
The absence of regulation allowed banks to go crazy handing out loans without being certain of the value of the houses used as collateral.
This is a well-known fact in the reality-oriented community (everything outside Fox News).

ryggesogn2
1.2 / 5 (19) May 25, 2012
There was no absence of regulation.
From a Wachovia press release, OCT '97:
"First Union Capital Markets Corp. and Bear, Stearns & Co. Inc. have
priced a $384.6 million offering of securities backed by Community Reinvestment Act
(CRA) loans - marking the industry's first public securitization of CRA loans."
"CRA loans are loans
targeted to low and moderate income borrowers and neighborhoods under the
Community Reinvestment Act of 1977."
""The securitization of these affordable mortgages allows us to redeploy capital back
into our communities and to expand our ability to provide credit to low and moderate
income individuals," said Jane Henderson, managing director of First Union's
Community Reinvestment and Fair Lending Programs."
"The $384.6 million in senior certificates are guaranteed by Freddie Mac and have an
implied "AAA" rating."

CRA, FDIC, ....no regulation?
ryggesogn2
1.9 / 5 (13) May 25, 2012
"A Massachusetts bank that has defied the odds and remained free of bad loans amid the economic crisis is now being criticized by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. for the cautious business practices that caused its rare success.
"But rather than reward Petrucelli's tactics, the FDIC recently criticized his bank for not lending enough, slapping it with a "needs to improve" rating under the Community Reinvestment Act, the Journal reported."

Read more: http://www.foxnew...vs7hPzJE

There is that pesky CRA again.
DarkHorse66
3 / 5 (4) May 25, 2012
1.Ronald ("I can't remember") Reagan was responsible for a large portion of the deregulation pie:
http://en.wikiped...ganomics The section on deregulation will reflect this.
http://www.econli...ics.html Note point(3): 'reduce regulation'
His economic policies have even been awarded their own category: 'Reaganomics'. This was happening during the "greed/excess is good" era. There were some people warning against what would happen, but they got ignored. What happened recently, was the kind of thing they had warned against.
2.Apart from that, it has taken 3 pages of biting at each other and there has been no mention of the biggest black hole of all in the American expenditure: spending on the military. Both that part of the budget & resistance to cuts on it, has been the most robust out of all of the government programs & has been spiraling readily skywards for years. It is disproportionally large, compared to everything else. Shame on you all...DH66
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (16) May 25, 2012
What 'deregulation'?
The CRA was started by Carter and revised by Clinton.
A major contributor to the collapse of the S&Ls during the Reagan Administration was a result of regulations that guaranteed deposits.
Vendicar_Decarian
1.9 / 5 (14) May 25, 2012
You have no proof of your assertion.

"Do you not understand that had such a company not made these type of decisions for those type of reasons, there would not have been an HP to employ those 27,000 to begin with" - NoumenTard

The fact of the matter is that due to the mismanagement of the company, they are now in a position where they feel they must compensate by firing 10 percent of their workforce - probably mostly in America - and hire the same number of workers back where wags are lower.

HP is engaging in treason against the American people and America in the pursuit of ever more money.

Vendicar_Decarian
1.9 / 5 (13) May 25, 2012
If capitalism is maximally efficient then why is HP needed to fire 10 precent of it's workforce? Clearly if it were tracking market trends it would use a much finer grained method of employee management and only re-arrangements of the workforce would be required.

"Such is free market capitalism that it self regulates and makes itself more efficient and better to compete" - NumenTard

The simple fact of the matter is that the Capitalist system is more than 80% inefficient, not only in the wasteful consumption of materials but also in the wasteful consumption of labor.

Vendicar_Decarian
2.8 / 5 (6) May 25, 2012
Of course not because it shows you to be a liar.

"I'm not watching your dopy video." - NumenTard

The policies to increase levels of home ownership are policies enacted by the Conservative Bush Administration, contrary to standard Conservative lies.

Here is the video again...

http://www.youtub...Qx7sjoS8

Poor NumenTard. He thinks that if he keeps his head in the sand, he will change reality to what he wishes to believe it to be.

Lying is a Consrevative's stock and trade.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.4 / 5 (5) May 25, 2012
Conservative Governments lowered regulatory standards which permitted backs to make risky investments.

"It is a fact that the government pressured and regulated banks to reduce lending standards, so nearly anyone could over-buy a home." - NumenTard

Conservatives destroy and mismanage everything they touch. They are the ultimate in incompetence.

In Bush's own speech he claims that he wishes the conservative congress to use taxpayer's money to pay a portion the down-payment for low income families in their purchase of a home.

At 2:10 in the speech, Bush charges congress with the task of simplifying - deregulating - the home purchase process.

And on and on it goes. Incompetent conservative policy after incompetent Conservative policy.

Vendicar_Decarian
3.6 / 5 (8) May 25, 2012
The Exxon Valdize was not a drilling accident.
And the Gulf Oil spill wasn't that far off shore. The problem was a defective design in a blowout preventer, and pressure from the corporation to produce at all costs, which was translated by the managers on staff to mean cut safety standards and drill unsafely.

"Such accidents are expected having to drill so far off shore." - NumenTard

Why you continue to lie about such matters is beyond me.
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (8) May 26, 2012
"Without FDIC insurance, your depositors will be making their decisions based on your reputation, and their assessment of the safety and security of your operations and not Uncle Sams willingness to continually bail you out."
http://www.rithol...nd-tbtf/
What a concept!
Noumenon
3.4 / 5 (74) May 26, 2012
Conservative Governments lowered regulatory standards which permitted backs to make risky investments. Antique BBS Troll


- What conservative government? G.W. Bush was far from an ideal consevative.

- Both republicans and democrats are to blame for the political game of trying to make it easier for lower income people to buy homes. The CRA came into being for that purpose, a government institution. The degeneration in lending standards were the result of government and politics, catering to the lower class.

- Nevertheless, It is documented fact that beginning as early as 2001 G.W. Bush administration warned of the lack of regulations of GSA's (freddie Mack & Fannie Mae). Every attempt by republicans was blocked by democrats, as this, in their liberal minds, would hinder lower income home ownership.

There were several factors involved, including low interest rates, bu for you to blame "conservative government" and G.W. Bush, demonstrates that you were spoon fed propaganda.
ryggesogn2
1.6 / 5 (9) May 26, 2012
low interest rates

The US govt sets the interest rates.
Noumenon
3.3 / 5 (71) May 26, 2012
,...
In principal conservatives desire government institutions to be regated as much as possible, that is it say, limited and controlled, but not so for the free market. The liberal left desire the exact opposite.

The very existence of agencies like CRA and government sponsored entities like the GSA's, cause a 'disturbance' in the other wise 'free market'. Such presense effects the way the market works. 'A wrench into the works.'

What I blame is GOVERNMENT, since It failed to regulate the conditions It caused in the market. Whether there was not enough or too much regulation is beside the point, the Government's hand was on the regulation-throttle the entire time.

It was another failure of government. Conservatives desire less government, while the far left desire more.
Noumenon
3.3 / 5 (72) May 26, 2012
And the Gulf Oil spill wasn't that far off shore. The problem was a defective design in a blowout preventer, and pressure from the corporation to produce at all costs, which was translated by the managers on staff to mean cut safety standards and drill unsafely - Huffington Post poster boy


That's what a industrial accident IS. All companies pressure to produce (duh),.. which occaisonally leads to safety corners cut. That's what causes accidents by definition of the word. In principal if every safety precaution was respected there would never be any accidents,.. but of course we live in reality.

The oil industry has a remarkable low accident rate in general,.. but it is unreasonable and stupid to expect zero causes, although it may be useful fodder to spoon feed the Gaia worshipers.

Incidentally, just prior to that accident, that rig received a high safety report from a government audit. Appears like another failure of government.
Noumenon
3.3 / 5 (72) May 26, 2012
"Do you not understand that had such a company not made these type of decisions for those type of reasons, there would not have been an HP to employ those 27,000 to begin with"

The fact of the matter is that due to the mismanagement of the company, they are now in a position where they feel they must compensate by firing 10 percent of their workforce - probably mostly in America - and hire the same number of workers back where wags are lower.


I see you don't understand even the basics of capitalism. It's not HP's purpose to employ people for the sake of employing people,.. it's their job to maximize profit for their investors.

That they DO in fact employ people, demonstrates that capitalism and desire for profit works to stengthen economies, and employs people as a consequence.

Large companies like HP make such internal movement's all the time. As I said, it's how a company grows to begin with ultimately.
Noumenon
3.3 / 5 (72) May 26, 2012
,...Of course HP is making decisions necessary for survival in a competitive market. Ultimately, if such strategic plans work, HP expects to grow and employ more. This company didn't start up with 300,000 employees,.. they grew to that by adapting when required.

As an example of an institution with your Michael Moore Syndrom,.. look at the government USPS, employing people for the sake of employing people, without the motive of profit, just to exist,... deliverying pottery catalogs door to door that nobody wants, six days a week,... nearing bankruptcy.
ryggesogn2
2.1 / 5 (11) May 26, 2012
the Government's hand was on the regulation-throttle the entire time.

Which is one reason Madoff was able to get away with his scam for so long, he had govt sanction.
His scam was govt regulated and he had a positive reputation in the industry. So for 10 years the govt failed to investigate, even when evidences was supplied by COMPETITORS.
The same idea prevailed with mortgage securitization. Freddie and Fannie, as promoted by the Wachovia press release, 'virtually' guaranteed the securities. And in the end, this is was true.
FDIC is another example of federal guarantees for socializing risk.
kaasinees
2.4 / 5 (11) May 26, 2012
Cutting all the funding for programs to fight poverty will create higher unemployment rates, which in the end will also harm business due to loss of purchasing power.

One day even your job will be replaced by a machine.

So unless you are an engineer, programmer or whatever you will become useless. You cant expect everyone to become that. And even in the future they also can be replaced by machines.

We will make ourselves useless, how will capitalism work then?
ryggesogn2
2.1 / 5 (11) May 26, 2012
Cutting all the funding for programs to fight poverty will create higher unemployment rates,

It has not so far.
Subsidize unemployment and you get more unemployment.

Free markets and capitalism CREATE NEW jobs IF the govt stays out of their way.
And even in the future they also can be replaced by machines.

Don't know much about machines do you.
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (10) May 26, 2012
What kaas supports:
"For the most part, rising worker productivity and advances in technology are the primary causes of reduced employment and higher output in the manufacturing, agriculture and telecommunications industries. My question is whether Congress should outlaw these productivity gains in the name of job creation. It would be easy. Just get rid of those John Deere harvesting machines that do in a day what used to take a thousand men a week, outlaw the robots and automation that eliminated many manufacturing jobs and bring back manually operated PBX telephone switchboards. "

Reality:
"The bottom line is that the health of an industry is measured by its output, not by the number of people it employs."
http://econfacult...ntSo.htm
ryggesogn2
2.1 / 5 (11) May 26, 2012
"You say, "Williams, certain jobs are destroyed by technology." You're right, but many more are created. Think about it. If 90 percent of Americans still had been farmers in 1900, where in the world would we have gotten workers to produce all those goods that were not even heard of in 1790, such as telephones, steamships and oil wells? We need not go back that far. If there hadn't been the kind of labor-saving technical innovation we've had since the 1950s in the auto, construction, telephone industries and many others where in the world would we have gotten workers to produce things that weren't heard of in the '50s, such as desktop computers, cellphones, HDTVs, digital cameras, MRI machines, pharmaceuticals and myriad other goods and services?"
"an always count upon an infinite number of potential jobs. The reason is that human wants are insatiable. People always want more of something. That want will create jobs for someone else."
http://www.creato...illiams/
kaasinees
2.5 / 5 (11) May 26, 2012
It has not so far.

Yes it did? How many people lost their job because of decreased educational and health care funding? In my country it caused many companies to collapse and retreat which causes a economical spiral downwards.
Subsidize unemployment and you get more unemployment.

Why are they unemployed? Do you know what happened when your ideas were a reality? Do you want to die from black death?
Free markets and capitalism CREATE NEW jobs IF the govt stays out of their way.

Govt creates millions of jobs. You are delusional.
Don't know much about machines do you.

As a computer scientist i'm pretty oblivious as to machines. Think again, oh wait you cant think.

Are you forgetting a computer is also a machine? Self programming machines are nothing new, thought very complex and in the result very basic, it is a matter of technical evolution. YOU will be replaced and you are worth nothing(in your world anyway).
kaasinees
2.5 / 5 (11) May 26, 2012
Reality:
"The bottom line is that the health of an industry is measured by its output, not by the number of people it employs."
http://econfacult...ntSo.htm


Oxmoron, anyone who is unemployed is dead, they cant support themselves.
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (11) May 26, 2012
How many people lost their job because of decreased educational and health care funding? I

Has the demand for health care and education fallen? No.
Has the cost of health care and education risen? Yes.
When the govt subsidizes health care and education, like the tragedy of the commons, people use. Eventually, demand for the low cost services rise, health care companies and educators do not have to be efficient and eventually the govt subsidy is not sufficient and not sustainable.
If the socialists demanded efficiency and accountability (like free markets do) in their programs, maybe they would be more successful. But successful govt programs eliminate the problem they were designed to attack so the the program would end and there would be no need for the govt workers.
Therefore, no govt program must ever succeed in eliminating the problem. Govt programs must perpetuate the problem and create new problems to keep the size and scope of govt growing.
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (10) May 26, 2012
Before the welfare state:
"Mutual aid was one of the cornerstones of social welfare in the United States until the early 20th century. The fraternal society was a leading example. The statistical record of fraternalism was impressive. A conservative estimate is that one-third of adult American males belonged to lodges in 1910. A fraternal analogue existed for virtually every major service of the modern welfare state including orphanages, hospitals, job exchanges, homes for the elderly, and scholarship programs."
"Societies dedicated themselves to the advancement of mutualism, self-reliance, business training, thrift, leadership skills, self-government, self-control, and good moral character."
http://www.herita...re-state
The welfare state promotes the exact opposite of the above.
Noumenon
3.3 / 5 (72) May 26, 2012
Cutting all the funding for programs to fight poverty will create higher unemployment rates, which in the end will also harm business due to loss of purchasing power.

One day even your job will be replaced by a machine.

So unless you are an engineer, programmer or whatever you will become useless. You cant expect everyone to become that. And even in the future they also can be replaced by machines.

We will make ourselves useless, how will capitalism work then?


If your insight of "which in the end will also harm business due to loss of purchasing power" will work as an argument against the reduction of poverty programs, then it should also work for your concern of machines encroaching upon jobs,..... if there is decreasing purchasing force with increasing automation force, an equilibrium will result as a natural consequence,... therefore preventing such a bed setting anti-capitalism nightmare.
Noumenon
3.3 / 5 (74) May 26, 2012
Therefore, no govt program must ever succeed in eliminating the problem. Govt programs must perpetuate the problem and create new problems to keep the size and scope of govt growing. -


The above is worth reposting because it is absolutely true.. Even with the countless billions spent on poverty and public education in the USA at the hands of the government, there has been little to no improvement. The same phenomena is portrayed by Al Sharpton who makes his living combating racism, and when he can't find it, he must invent it, separate that he is that racism still exist.

Government dependancy is an evil inflicted upon people. In some parts of Africa the people are so conditioned to receiving aide, there is little chance of them developing an economy of there own.

BTW, most conservatives don't want to rid welfare programs 100%, they just want accountability and restrictions so generations of people are not permanently damaged by it.
Noumenon
3.3 / 5 (74) May 26, 2012
Correction,.... "The same phenomena is portrayed by Al Sharpton who makes his living combating racism, and when he can't find it, he must invent it, [desperate] that he is that racism still exist." [autocorrect sp error]
Noumenon
3.3 / 5 (72) May 26, 2012
Slashing government funding for Medicaid, food stamps and other programs that serve the poor while politically popular with some lawmakers and many conservatives may do more harm than good to the economy and cost taxpayers more in the long run - above liberal bias "research study"


Meaningless non-sense. The government spends tax payers money far quicker than it can take it in without damaging the economy. The USA government is already nearing $16 trillion in debt. Only mindless liberals would suggest NOT decreasing government spending. A balanced budget needs to be a matter of congressional law. Redistribution of wealth by artificially devaluing the dollar in a free country is criminal.
ryggesogn2
2.2 / 5 (10) May 26, 2012
"With increased government spending comes the need to pay for it, and if taxes arent going to increase that means deficits. "
http://blogs.wsj....enefits/
What are 'taxes'? Tax revenue or tax rates?
Wrigley made his fortune by making a small profit on a large volume of gum sales.
Many govt entities have realized increased tax revenue by reducing tax rates.
Why is this so difficult for 'progressives' to understand? But of course they DO understand this relationship but cutting tax RATES means losing more control over businesses that bribe them to leave them alone or losing control over those who are in the tax shelter business.
And the bottom line is the 'liberal'/'progressive'/socialist does not want to cut welfare, does not want to cut govt spending because their victims would quickly learn they don't need the govt to take care of them anymore.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2 / 5 (4) May 26, 2012
Now for a short economics lesson;

Economies are inevitably characterized by Cycles of growth, decay, collapse, and rebirth. Investment produces prosperity which causes growth in populations which quickly exceed the carrying capacity of a region. Prices of goods escalate causing inflation. The workforce exceeds the number of available jobs causing declining wages and unemployment. Collapse is imminent.

'In 1860 French economist Clement Juglar identified the presence of economic cycles 8 to 11 years long, although he was cautious not to claim any rigid regularity.'

-Sound familiar? 'God' told joseph and pharoah about the 7 years of feast followed inevitably by 7 years of famine. Since they knew what was coming they began to store grain. When people began to starve they cornered the market and ended up owning all of value in egypt. Like the rothschilds.

Aggressive repro rates are flooding the west with refugees, bankrupting states like greece and california at the worst possible Time.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.9 / 5 (7) May 26, 2012
Technological advances make this worse, not better. What is the good of being able to produce more staples if a large number of people have no income?

Growth and prosperity will inevitably produce the conditions of widespread poverty. There is no avoiding this in todays world. The more you supply-siders supply, the more problems you cause. If you do not store your grain during the years of feast you will have a very large, starving population willing to take what you have by any and all means.

Communism is an inevitable result of not accepting the reality of economic cycles and preparing for the future.
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (17) May 26, 2012
large number of people have no income?

Socialist govts plunder the wealth of entrepreneurs subsidizing unemployment.
Henry Ford understood people needed the money and time to buy his product. He set work standards and pay scales higher than anyone at the time, without the force of govt backed unions.
I once heard the USSR had 100% employment, their grocery stores were empty and the propaganda shelves were fully stocked.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.7 / 5 (3) May 26, 2012
But this isn't what Tard Boy's link - to a blog - actually recommended.

"Without FDIC insurance, your depositors will be making their decisions based on your reputation, and their assessment of the safety and security of your operations and not Uncle Sams willingness to continually bail you out." - RyggTard

"Effectively immediately, we have increased the FDIC deposit insurance for any US bank that engages in ANY trading of derivatives or underwriting securities or other investment banking activities by threefold. This 3X fee increase goes into effect immediately. It applies regardless whether these trades are hedges for proprietary trades or are made on behalf of clients." - RyggTard's link

As you can see, RyggTard's link actually recommends the exact opposite of what he claimed.

I have never encountered a Libertarian who wasn't a congenital and perpetual liar. RyggTard is clearly no exception.
Vendicar_Decarian
2 / 5 (12) May 26, 2012
RyggTard conveniently forgets the Reagan Era deregulation of the savings and loan industry which cost the American Taxpayer somewhere between 1/2 and 1 trillion dollars in bank bailouts.

"What 'deregulation'?" - RyggTard

The deregulation that caused that fiscal crisis was also created, sponsored, and popularized by RyggTard's Libertarian brothers in crime.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.1 / 5 (11) May 26, 2012
Well no. It doesn't as a matter of fact.

"The US govt sets the interest rates." - RyggTard

An independent bank called the FED sets it's lending rate.

Private banks have chosen to use that lending rate as a basis for their own rates. But this is not a legal requirement, and banks are free to lend at whatever rate they like.

RyggTard is a typical Libertarian. He doesn't have a clue as to how the economy works, but he is damn sure that he knows everything.

This is why Libertarian economic policies have been such a colossal disaster whenever they are implemented.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.1 / 5 (11) May 26, 2012
In other words all companies cut corners to save money knowing that they will increase their accident rate. So these "accidents" aren't really accidents, they are essentially statistically planned.

Hence they can't properly be called accidents.

"All companies pressure to produce (duh),.. which occaisonally leads to safety corners cut. That's what causes accidents by definition of the word." - NumenTard

Vendicar_Decarian
2 / 5 (12) May 26, 2012
Meanwhile back in reality land, there are over 100 oil spills currently occurring currently in America right now.

"The oil industry has a remarkable low accident rate in general"- NumenTard

http://oceana.org...pill-map

And of course NumenTard's low IQ is in part from exposure to lead in leaded gasoline sold by the Oil Industry.

Vendicar_Decarian
4 / 5 (4) May 26, 2012
NumenTard now gives the standard excuse used by borrow and spend Conservatives.

"The government spends tax payers money far quicker than it can take it in without damaging the economy." - NumenTard

"Borrowing a trillion dollars plus was the greatest thing we ever did." - Reagan administration budget advisor.

NumenTard's comment reminds me of the mindless claims made by Rush Limbaugh and other Conservatives that Reagan through his program of massive borrowing and spending had "repealed the business cycle." to the benefit of all Americans.

Like George Bush Jr. Reagan was a useful idiot.
Vendicar_Decarian
4 / 5 (4) May 26, 2012
Can RyggTard provide the names of those in Government who sanctioned Madoff's criminality?

"Which is one reason Madoff was able to get away with his scam for so long, he had govt sanction." - RyggTard

No he can not do so, because he is of course just telling another lie.

Madoff was of course a Libertarian - one of RyggTard's ideological brothers, who knew enough about the inner workings of the investment industry that he could act criminally and avoid detection by the regulators.

Madoff is another example of the massive criminality that results from inadequate regulation and Corrupt, American style Capitalism.
Vendicar_Decarian
4 / 5 (4) May 26, 2012
Undoubtedly because it is a lie.

"Many govt entities have realized increased tax revenue by reducing tax rates. Why is this so difficult for 'progressives' to understand?" - RyggTard

Libertarians love to make the claim that after Reagan lowered tax rates, government revenue increased.

This is true, but it isn't for the reason they claim. It wasn't the budget cutting that increased revenue, it was the massive borrowing that replaced the lost tax revenue.

During the Reagan era, borrow and spend Republicans pumped around 4 trillion dollars (today's value) into an economy that was about 7 trillion in size.

So basically, Reagan Republicans borrowed 6 months worth of wages for each American and then spent that money stimulating the economy. In return the economy at first grew rapidly with the growth rate tapering off rapidly as taxes were re-introduced and the economy habituated on massive federal deficits.

In reality the small growth in government revenue was swamped by by the debt.
Vendicar_Decarian
4 / 5 (4) May 26, 2012
Slave owners made the exact same arguments against government preventing them from owning slaves.

Now we find the apologists for modern slavery using the same ignorant rhetoric.

"And the bottom line is the 'liberal'/'progressive'/socialist does not want to cut welfare, does not want to cut govt spending because their victims would quickly learn they don't need the govt to take care of them anymore." - RyggTard
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (8) May 26, 2012
"According to the report, the SEC received six warnings about Mr. Madoff's trading business over 16 years, but failure of staff to follow up adequately -- including to determine whether trades were executed when Mr. Madoff said they were -- and poor communication within the agency's divisions enabled him to continue his scheme."
"Despite three examinations and two enforcement investigations into Madoff, "at no time did the SEC ever verify Madoff's trading through an independent third-party, and in fact, never actually conducted a Ponzi scheme examination or investigation," the summary said."
http://online.wsj...239.html
"The truth is that the SEC made Madoff. He could not have existed as a threat to investors without the Commissions active and dedicated support over several decades."
http://www.puppet...-madoff/
Vendicar_Decarian
3.7 / 5 (3) May 26, 2012
RyggTard all but admits to the reason behind the Republican Refusal to raise taxes to reduce Obama's 2009/2010 deficits.

"With increased government spending comes the need to pay for it, and if taxes arent going to increase that means deficits. " - RyggTard

They knew that by refusing to raise taxes, they would increase the federal deficit.

That was their goal. The impoverishment of America.

Some dare call it treason.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) May 26, 2012
"A handful of conservatives
made the claim that investor protection under the SEC was worse
than having no investor protection at all, because the SEC was simply fostering
the illusion of genuine regulatory effort-its own version of a con
game. 11 More moderate voices didn't go that far, but were convinced that
the SEC was a severely troubled institution in need of massive refonn.12"
The SEC and the Madoff Scandal: Three
Narratives in Search of a Story
Donald C. Langevoort
"Rather than viewing Madoff as a scofflaw, regulators called on him for his expertise. Edwin Nordlinger, an SEC staffer involved in the Avellino & Bienes investigation, recalls accompanying a new SEC commissioner on a visit in the late '90s with Madoff, who schooled the regulator on over-the-counter markets. Arthur Levitt, ­chairman of the SEC from 1993-2001, has said publicly he consulted with Madoff during his tenure. Says ­Nordlinger: "Madoff was considered an expert." "
http://www.busine...e/conten
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) May 26, 2012
"The history of taxation shows that taxes which are inherently excessive are not paid. The high rates inevitably put pressure upon the taxpayer to withdraw his capital from productive business and invest it in tax-exempt securities or to find other lawful methods of avoiding the realization of taxable income. The result is that the sources of taxation are drying up; wealth is failing to carry its share of the tax burden; and capital is being diverted into channels which yield neither revenue to the Government nor profit to the people."
"According to President John F. Kennedy:....In short, it is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are too high today and tax revenues are too low and the soundest way to raise the revenues in the long run is to cut the rates now."
http://www.herita...ax-rates
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) May 26, 2012
"Canadas federal corporate tax revenues as a share of gross domestic product (GDP) and the federal corporate tax rate. The tax rate plunged from 38 percent in 1980 to just 15 percent by 2012. Amazingly, there has been no obvious drop in tax revenues over the period."
"In 2000, Canadian policymakers enacted another round of corporate tax rate cuts, which were phased in gradually. Corporate tax revenues initially dipped, but then they rebounded strongly in the late 2000s."
http://dailycalle...ax-cuts/
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (16) May 26, 2012
Lessons from Sweden:
"Sweden has the highest growth in GDP in Europe. Obviously, Borg knows wealth, investment and entrepreneurs are essential for a vibrant economy and prosperity. A vibrant economy advances science, art and the standard of living for the entire society. Totally contrary to tax the rich chant in America, Borg is enticing entrepreneurs and the wealthy to invest and live in Sweden. Borg has cut the taxes on the rich again in Sweden!

If you have a high wealth tax and an inheritance tax, people emigrate because it becomes too costly to own a company. Ownership is a production factor. Entrepreneurs are a production factor. Yes, these people are rich and you can obviously argue that we want to encourage social cohesion. But it is also problematic if you drive out entrepreneurs from your country, because they are the source of job creation."
http://www.freedo...ea-party
Vendicar_Decarian
1.7 / 5 (11) May 26, 2012
Given the absurd lengths Conservatives go to lie about virtually everything, I'm sure that one could get a hand full of them to say virtually any nonsense...

You know, like getting a hand full of them to say that Obama isn't an American, or a hand full of them to say that George Bush Jr. was the greatest president in American history, or a hand full of them to say that smoking doesn't cause cancer, or that the earth is 6,000 years old, or that man coexisted with dinosaurs, or that WMD were found in Iraq, or that homosexuality is a disease that can be cured, etc. etc. etc.

"A handful of conservatives made the claim that investor
protection under the SEC was worse than having no investor protection at all" - RyggTard

I have never encountered a Conesrvative who wasn't a congenital and a perpetual liar.

Deathclock
1.4 / 5 (18) May 26, 2012
VD, please stop posting, it's too hard to keep up with giving 1's to all of your stupid posts.
Vendicar_Decarian
1.7 / 5 (12) May 26, 2012
Which means that the Canadian economy grew by around 2.5 times since 1980. So as a fraction of GDP, corporate income fell by around 2.5 times.

At the same time, the cost of maintaining Canada's infrastructure has increased. New roads, airports, and service buildings have been built. The Canadian population has increased. Health and police services have had to expand.

But corporations are paying - according to RyggTard - the same absolute amount to the government, which means that they are paying for a much smaller portion of the Canadian infrastructure than they did in the past, even though they are benefited even more from expanded services.

"Canadas federal corporate tax revenues as a share of gross domestic product (GDP) and the federal corporate tax rate. The tax rate plunged from 38 percent in 1980 to just 15 percent by 2012. Amazingly, there has been no obvious drop in tax revenues over the period." - RyggTard

RyggTard just can't figure out economics.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.7 / 5 (3) May 26, 2012
What RyggTard fails to mention is that Corporations are paying less and less for the government services they receive and externalizing those costs to the middle class who are largely comprised of slave laborers for those same corporations.

Corporations are constantly seeking to foist more of the costs of doing business onto the backs of their own slave laborers.

Thanks to Libertarian Corporatism (AKA Fascism), Americans are now a race of indentured serviles.

Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (4) May 27, 2012
I will continue to throw pearls to the swine, for pearls are all I have, and when the time comes, I will feel no regret in having American pork for dinner.

"it's too hard to keep up with giving 1's to all of your stupid posts." - DeathTard
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (4) May 27, 2012
And yet RyggTard claims that tax revenues went up under Kennedy but are now down even though American Tax rates are lower now than when Kennedy was president.

"The history of taxation shows that taxes which are inherently excessive are not paid." - RyggTard

Poor RyggTard. His ideology is the origin of virtually ALL of America's problems and he just doesn't have the intelligence or honesty to admit that he and his Randite brothers are traitors to their own nation.
Deathclock
1 / 5 (5) May 27, 2012
I will continue to throw pearls to the swine, for pearls are all I have, and when the time comes, I will feel no regret in having American pork for dinner.


Religious people like to use that quote a lot, it falsely validates their position while simultaneously presenting an ad hominem argument... Do you really want to model your behavior after creationists?
Terriva
2.3 / 5 (6) May 27, 2012
what a disgusting piece of left-wing college propaganda .. the programs aren't bankrupt, the America is bankrupt..

As usually, I would say, the balanced unbiased approach to the social welfare program is the optimal stance here. Both opponents indeed have their bit of truth - but the smartest way is usually the best one. But the balanced approach is usually too difficult and complex for simple people with black&white vision of reality. Such a people would prefer the simple solution of complex problems and they don't care, if they're biased from long-term perspective or not.
Terriva
2.3 / 5 (6) May 27, 2012
.. theres a correlation between the social welfare spending that a country does and poverty rates... the more you spend, the less poverty there is. So that ... the reason we have poor people in this country is because we dont spend enough on anti-poverty programs, not that we spend too much...
The correlation doesn't always mean the causation. For example, we can imagine easily the country, where the people are rich not because of dissipative money spreading in social welfare program, but because it supports the growth of the industry and employment rates and responsibility of families toward old and disabled members (I mean these conservative traditions, supporting the compact relations inside of wide families). Both these approaches have their limits, though. For example, when the price of oil remains high, then the expansion of industry becomes costly as well.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) May 27, 2012
"Well, its now official: the war on poverty was a costly, tragic mistake. Ordinary people have suspected that for decades, of course, but we had to wait for the New York Times to decide this news was fit to printwhich it finally did on February 9, 1998. In a front-page story on poverty in rural Kentucky, Michael Janofsky detailed the failure of this effort in the one region that was supposed to be the centerpiece of reform. Federal and state agencies have plowed billions of dollars into Appalachia, he wrote, yet the area looks much as it did 30 years ago, when President Lyndon B. Johnson declared a war on poverty, taking special aim at the rural decay.1"
"over half the adults illiterate and half unemployed. Feelings of hopelessness have become so deeply entrenched, he reported, that many residents have long forsaken any expectation of bettering themselves.
http://www.thefre...-failed/
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (8) May 27, 2012
"The war on poverty was the worst thing that ever happened to Appalachia, Janofsky quotes one resident as saying. It gave people a way to get by without having to do any work. Local officials told him that many parents urge their children to try to go to special education classes at school as a way to prove they are eligible for [SSI] disability benefits. (The senior class at the local high school picked as its motto, I came, I slept, I graduated.)"
"While the state of neediness we call poverty does involve a lack of material resources, it also involves a mass of psychological and moral problems, including weak motivation, lack of trust in others, ignorance, irresponsibility, self-destructiveness, short-sightedness, alcoholism, drug addiction, promiscuity, and violence. "
"One of the first things the needy lack is motivation; that is, they lack the ability to sacrifice and to discipline themselves, to defer present gratification for future benefit. "
(same source)
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (7) May 27, 2012
"the war-on-poverty activists failed to noticeor failed to carethat they were ignoring over a century of theory and experience in the social welfare field. Charity leaders of the nineteenth century had lived with the poor and had analyzed the effects of different kinds of aid. They discovered that almsgivingthat is, something for nothingactually hurt the poor."
"it weakened them by undermining their motivation to improve themselves."
"handouts encouraged self-destructive vices by softening the natural penalties for irresponsible and socially harmful behavior."
"The correct way to help the needy, they said, was to expect something of recipients in return for what was given them."
"In the 1996 welfare reform, the nation began to undo the damage caused by the war on povertys misguided approach."
http://www.thefre...-failed/
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (7) May 27, 2012
"The nineteenth-century charity leaders were familiar with the drawbacks of government assistance. Mary Richmond, one of the founders of American social work, condemned public relief in no uncertain terms: The most experienced charity workers regard it as a source of demoralization both to the poor and the charitable. No public agency can supply the devoted, friendly, and intensely personal relation so necessary in charity. It can supply the gift, but it cannot supply the giver, for the giver is a compulsory tax rate.12"
http://www.thefre...-failed/
This is the heavy price really paid by the state and the welfare recipient. It severs the connection between giver and receiver.
Wealth is exacted by the state,not given and the recipients are trained by the state to expect 'charity' as an entitlement, not a gift, not something that motivates gratitude.
Terriva
2.3 / 5 (6) May 27, 2012
@ryggesogn2: The people, who are able to copy&paste whole article, when only single link would be enough are just plain forum trolls and idiots by itself, so they're not worth of further discussion. The ideas promoted with the people, who are acting like the idiots are perceived idiotic too, so you're unwillingly doing a disservice to the ideas of your personal interest. The people, who are citing foreign ideas without further comment tend to brainwashing, because they accept foreign ideas non-critically. They do brainwashing, because they're already brainwashed itself.
ryggesogn2
1.6 / 5 (7) May 27, 2012
foreign ideas

Foreign ideas?
BTW, the link provides further references.
I thought this was a site about science so I provided a source that the apparently the authors of this 'study' or article failed to discover.
accept foreign ideas non-critically.

Like socialism works?
Carl Popper was motivated to his falsifiability idea by the failure of Marxism.
So why does physorg continue to promote socialism when it has been demonstrated to fail to accomplish its stated objectives?
What socialism does succeed at is what is unstated, increased state power. That is the real objective of socialism and the socialist.
Terriva
1 / 5 (5) May 27, 2012
Carl Popper was motivated to his falsifiability idea by the failure of Marxism
The Laissez-faire model of capitalism has failed in the same way and even from the same reason: the people are cheaters by their very nature and they do need public control and feedback of their private activities. In socialism the people are just cheating the democracy and redistribution of public resources, in capitalism the same people are cheating the rules of free market and redistribution of private resources - that's all.
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (2) May 27, 2012
The sentence you claim is a quote is not. It was composed by me.

I repeat it again...

"Religious people like to use that quote a lot" - DeathTard

I will continue to throw pearls to the swine, for pearls are all I have, and when the time comes, I will feel no regret in having American pork for dinner.
ryggesogn2
2 / 5 (8) May 27, 2012
The Laissez-faire model of capitalism has failed in the same way and even from the same reason: the people are cheaters by their very nature

You have it backwards, free markets succeed precisely because individuals are motivated by their self interest.
Free market capitalism has not failed. Even socialist/communist/'progressive' economies must resort to the free market when their system fails. China, Sweden, Cuba, USSR, etc. have all had to resort to free markets when their central planning failed.
Socialism, centrally planned economies have well documented, spectacular failures we have witnessed in the past and are witnessing today.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) May 27, 2012
Sources:
"Michael Janofsky, Pessimism Retains Grip on Region Shaped by War on Poverty, New York Times, February 9, 1998, p. A1.
Michael Harrington, The Other America: Poverty in the United States (New York: Macmillan, 1969 [1962]), p. 174.
Robert A. Levine, The Poor Ye Need Not Have With You: Lessons from the War on Poverty (Cambridge, Mass.: M.I.T. Press, 1970), p. 6.
Harrington, p. 17.
Quoted in Ken Auletta, The Underclass (New York: Random House, 1983), p. 23.
Ibid., pp. 57, 120, 121, 122.
Ibid., p. 65.
Edward Zigler, Sally J. Styfco, and Elizabeth Gilman, The National Head Start Program for Disadvantaged Preschoolers, in Zigler and Styfco, eds., Head Start and Beyond: A National Plan for Extended Childhood Intervention (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1993), p. 4.
Tim Nolan, What Really Makes Head Start Work? (Milwaukee: Institute for Innovation in Human Services, 1991), p. 8.
Mary E. Richmond, Friendly Visiting Among the Poor: A Handbook for Charity Workers (Montclair, N.J.:
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) May 27, 2012
"Mr Fernando, 49, who has put the business in the name of his Cuban wife Oyaky, is part of a growing entrepreneurial class in Cuba as the government permits certain categories of people to work por cuenta propia - for their own account."
"Cuba can no longer afford to maintain the State's monopoly over the economy."
{They ran out of other people's money.}
"What we are talking about is an updating of our Cuban economic model, which makes our own form of socialism more sustainable for the wellbeing of our people," "
http://www.theaus...20412480
Lesson: when socialism fails, try capitalism.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) May 27, 2012
"despite popular mythology, Sweden is not a socialist success story but instead owes its economic growth to the lowered tax rates and deregulation of the early 1990s, which allowed innovation and investment to flourish. Bergh also discusses how Sweden's national voucher program revitalized the country's educational system and warns that Americans who are hoping to emulate Swedish success by growing the public sector are learning the wrong lessons from Sweden. "
http://reason.com...apitalis
"Property rights, free markets and the rule of law in combination with an increasingly well-educated workforce created an environment in which Sweden enjoyed an unprecedented period of sustained and rapid economic development."
http://www.newgeo...t-reform
Vendicar_Decarian
2 / 5 (4) May 27, 2012
RyggTard quotes from a Libertarian publication called "The Freemen".

The Publication is basically a texed based, Libertarian Circle Jerk. Read by nobodies and containing short, nonsense diatribes written by the same nobodies - truck drivers, toilet scrubbers, and a wide collection of losers who feel that da evils gubderment done gone and stozen deir moneys to give to niggas and commies.

"Well, its now official: the war on poverty was a costly, tragic mistake" - RyggTard quoting from "The Freemen"

I know of no "official source" that has declared the war on poverty to be a tragic mistake.

When you see the first sentence of an article is a lie, you have to question the intellectual integrity of what follows.

And since "The Freemen" has no intellectual integrity, one can stop reading right there.

Poor RyggTard. He and his Libertarian Brothers just loves their circle jerks.

Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) May 27, 2012
What RyggTard's unnamed source claims is an Applachian high school appears in reality to be a high school in the Bronx NY - that I name below.

"(The senior class at the local (Appalachia) high school picked as its motto, I came, I slept, I graduated.)" - The Freemen

An unnamed Applacian high school ay?

Dewitt Clinton Highschool 1947 (Bronx NY) "I came, I slepT, I graduaTed."

http://www.e-year..._65.html

I have never encountered a Libertarian who wasn't a congenital and perpetual liar.

"The Freemen" is chock full of them, as I have shown on multiple occasions.
Vendicar_Decarian
2 / 5 (4) May 27, 2012
In the Communist countries, everyone is expected to work, even if it is only sweeping the streets.

"The correct way to help the needy, they said, was to expect something of recipients in return for what was given them" - RyggTard

I am pleased that Libertarian/Randite RyggTard has finally come around to adopting the Communist solution to maintain worker motivation.

To each according to their need. From each according to their ability.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) May 27, 2012
"'The war on poverty was the worst thing that ever happened to Appalachia,'' said Denise Hoffman, 46, who runs a small farm here with her husband, Neil. ''It gave people a way to get by without having to do any work.''"
"Even many of the 70 seniors at Owsley County High School this year sense the inevitability of spending their lives in poverty, unchanged from their parents' situations.
"When the senior class voted on the message to print on their T-shirts this year, an annual custom, they chose: ''I came. I slept. I graduated.'' Megan said fewer than 25 percent plan to attend college."
"''Poverty is not about money,'' he said. ''It's in the mind. It's a way of life. Once you're in that cycle you think you can't break out of it. I don't know why people think that way, but they become a prisoner of it. It took us three generations to get into this mess, and it's going to take us three generations to get out of it.''"
http://www.nytime...-appalac
Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) May 27, 2012
But you forget. RyggTard claims to be a "free thinker", and his regurgitation of nonsense blogs and textual Libertarian Circle Jerks is proof of such.

He isn't just a serial wanker. He could get himself a real women if he wanted to. He just doesn't want to, because Circle Jerk thinking is Free Thinking.

"The people, who are citing foreign ideas without further comment tend to brainwashing, because they accept foreign ideas non-critically." - Terriva
Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) May 27, 2012
Yes, and your inclusion of your source "The Freemen" has been useful.

We know that "The Freemen" is a Libertarian Circle Jerk publication which has an academic standing that is just slightly below that of the scribble found on a well used bathroom stall.

"I thought this was a site about science so I provided a source" - RyggTard

I particularly liked this article in your source...

"The Growing Abundance of Fossil Fuels" - The Freemen - 1999

And this one...

"Overpopulation: The Perennial Myth" - The Freemen - 1993

Which concludes... "In short, although there are now more people in the world than ever before, by any meaningful measure the world is actually becoming relatively less populated."

Ahahahahahaahah.... Some Randite fools dare call it science.
Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) May 27, 2012
Ya, the Mexican Drug Gangs who last week beheaded 42 people and dumped their headless bodies on a main road leading to one Mexican town are successful for the very same reason.

"You have it backwards, free markets succeed precisely because individuals are motivated by their self interest." - RyggTard

By the way Tard Boy. You still haven't explained to us why your ideological hero - Ayn Rand decided to go on the public dole after she contracted cancer.

Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) May 27, 2012
Do you pay comedians to write your material RyggTard?

"Poverty is not about money," - RyggTard

Oh... The link you provided to your nonsense reference is invalid.

Poor RyggTard. His scientific method includes links to Nonsense Libertarian Circle Jerk publications and to bolster those links he includes links that go nowhere.

How typically Libertarian of him.

Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) May 27, 2012
For years RyggTard has been insisting that Sweden is a socialist failure. Now suddenly his claiming that it is a Capitalist success.

What a moron.

"despite popular mythology, Sweden is not a socialist success" - RyggTard

RyggTard's shift in position reminds me of the decision by his mentor Ayn Rand who decided to apply (under a false name) and take Government welfare payments in her later years after she contracted lung cancer from a lifetime of heavy smoking.

Of course her "free thinking" was of such high caliber that she insisted to here last breath that smoking didn't cause cancer and that it was all a communist plot by the worlds scientists to establish a one world government socialst order.

TheGhostofOtto1923
2 / 5 (7) May 27, 2012
Hey ryggy

The NYT says otto know what he is talking about. Always.

"But the relentless drive for productivity may also have some natural limits. Ever-increasing productivity means that if our economies dont continue to expand, we risk putting people out of work. If more is possible each passing year with each working hour, then either output has to increase or else there is less work to go around. Like it or not, we find ourselves hooked on growth.

What, then, should happen when, for one reason or another, growth just isnt to be had anymore? Maybe its a financial crisis. Or rising prices for resources like oil. Or the need to rein in growth for the damage its inflicting on the planet: climate change, deforestation, the loss of biodiversity. Maybe its any of the reasons growth can no longer be safely and easily assumed in any of todays economies. The result is the same. Increasing productivity threatens full employment."
cont
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (6) May 27, 2012
"One solution would be to accept the productivity increases, shorten the workweek and share the available work...But theres another strategy for keeping people in work when demand stagnates. Perhaps in the long run its an easier and a more compelling solution: to loosen our grip on the relentless pursuit of productivity. By easing up on the gas pedal of efficiency and creating jobs in what are traditionally seen as low productivity sectors, we have within our grasp the means to maintain or increase employment, even when the economy stagnates."
http://www.nytime...ive.html

-Of course this would mean bridling competition, not just domestically but worldwide wouldnt it? Wouldnt it ryggy? How else you gonna give all those young spaniards and greeks jobs?

Prosperity produces too many people too fast. Fact of life.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.5 / 5 (4) May 27, 2012
Canibalism a new element in Conservative American State.

"According to published reports, Miami Police shot and killed a man off the MacArthur Causeway when they caught him eating another man's face Saturday afternoon."

http://www.local1...dex.html

Witness the inevitable Collapse of Capitalism.
riogranderift
2.1 / 5 (7) May 27, 2012
Let's see, we have a study published by tax funded investigators who provide tax funded services showing that spending taxes on what they do is a good thing. Why is my bias radar going off so loudly?
Terriva
1 / 5 (4) May 27, 2012
Free market capitalism has not failed. Even socialist/communist/'progressive' economies must resort to the free market when their system fails
The free market is just a volatile illusion. The markets at the West are controlled and stabilized with governments and their central banks. At the Europe even another super-govermental international organizations are involved (MMF). Like every stabilization, this regulation is nonconsequential and it comes with its dissipative price. And when the whole economy goes down, it has nothing to regulate.
ryggesogn2
1.1 / 5 (7) May 27, 2012
The markets at the West are controlled and stabilized with governments and their central banks

If those govts limit their force to protection of private property and not redistribution of private property, they facilitate the environment for free markets.
The top nations on the Index for Economic freedom all do well at protecting private property.
However, the absence of a monopoly on force (govt) does not prohibit free markets.
Noumenon
3.4 / 5 (68) May 27, 2012
Let's see, we have a study published by tax funded investigators who provide tax funded services showing that spending taxes on what they do is a good thing. Why is my bias radar going off so loudly?


Exactly, it is pure non-sense bias propaganda.

What this actually turns out to be a study of, unbeknownst to the dingbat authors, ....is of how clueless and fiscally irresponsible liberals are.
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (4) May 27, 2012
Riogranderift Member since: May 27, 2012, 2:18 pm

Odd how this person just shows up to support NumenTard's idiot ideology.

Can we all say Sock Puppet?

A common tactic among Libertarians.
Noumenon
3.4 / 5 (68) May 27, 2012
Riogranderift Member since: May 27, 2012, 2:18 pm

Odd how this person just shows up to support NumenTard's idiot ideology.

Can we all say Sock Puppet?

A common tactic among Libertarians.


As usual you don't make any sense. A common infliction of liberals.
Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (2) May 28, 2012
To clarify for NumenTard.

A new identity was created just minutes before NumenTard's post for the purpose of supporting his ideology.

"As usual you don't make any sense." - NumenTard

It is called a sock puppet. An alter-ego that some dishonest miscreants use to provide fake support for their nonsense ideological claims.
Noumenon
3.3 / 5 (69) May 28, 2012
I say, you don't make sense because I have no reason to do that,... our existing system is based on free market capitalism,..so reality supports my ideological claims, at least as a basis. Plus, I already have several posters here that agree with my basic capitalist ideology.

Your far leftist anti-capitalist, anti-profit, anti-big business ideology, on the other hand, is entirely irrelevant in this country.

I've only ever posted with one other screen name to which I've admitted to on the very first post. You on the other hand, are a known troll from the bbs days,... going by several names.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) May 28, 2012
How many socialist Canadians, ashamed that the conservatives have help to make Canada more prosperous, are donating any extra wealth to some charity or sending it to Cuba or Venezuela to support the socialist cause?
Noumenon
3.4 / 5 (68) May 28, 2012
In other words all companies cut corners to save money knowing that they will increase their accident rate. So these "accidents" aren't really accidents, they are essentially statistically planned.

Hence they can't properly be called accidents. - VD


"An accident or mishap is an unforeseen and UNPLANNED event or circumstance, often with lack of intention or necessity. It usually implies a generally negative outcome which may have been avoided or prevented had circumstances leading up to the accident been recognized, and acted upon, prior to its occurrence" - Wiki
ryggesogn2
2 / 5 (8) May 28, 2012
"Yes, Apple praised to the skies for being an innovator and job creator by Washington politicians when that narrative serves their interests has become the latest target of the political class.

According to Politico, the daily newspaper of lobbyists and political consultants, industry giant Apple spent a mere $500,000 in Washington in the first quarter of 2012, compared to more than $7 million Google and Microsoft spent on lobbying and related activities from January through March of this year.

Read more: http://www.nydail...wAZNvWLC
"
Sounds a lot like organized crime. Pay up or we will break your kneecaps.
Noumenon
3.4 / 5 (66) May 28, 2012
@ Vendicar,

Like most dingbat liberals, it's clear you don't understand statistics, nor how to interpret them.

Some 40,000 people die each year in the USA in cars accidents, each of which "could" have been avoided had safety and laws been fully respected in each case. There is enough laws in this case (new ones are not being passed), so such occurrences are inherent with such societal use of cars on a mass scale.

Likewise, the act of drilling for such vast quantities of oil, will necessarily cause accidents to some probability. The accident level will never be zero despite having identified a cause,... nor will drilling be outlawed on account of accidents, thus some level of probability is accepted in the act of drilling.

Social engineers use statistics as a weapon to fight liberty. The greatest threat to freedom and the dignity of man, is social statistics in the hands of socialists.
Noumenon
3.4 / 5 (66) May 28, 2012
The far left pick and choose what industry to admonish based purely on bias ideology. Thus, the oil industry is demonized for a statistically few accidents, while liberal unionized public school's in the richest country on earth only comes in like 26th place in education standards. Was that an accident or planned?
Noumenon
3.4 / 5 (66) May 28, 2012
How many socialist Canadians, ashamed that the conservatives have help to make Canada more prosperous, are donating any extra wealth to some charity or sending it to Cuba or Venezuela to support the socialist cause?


The vast majority of Canadians exist snuggled up to the http://www.neocli...htm.jpg, like baby piglets suckling their mothers tete, clearly relying on the USA's capitalistic greatness.

Notice how rich liberals never voluntarily pay more taxes, nor give away all their wealth and live like "the working people". Even liberals desire wealth and to better their standards of living, as this is a naturally instintic to all men.

The ideology of market capitalists, in principal are more compatible with the natural mechanisms of evolutionary theory, than ad-hoc social engineering of the far left. In this sense, the former are more scientifically minded than the latter, since the former take advantage of natural forces while the latter work against them
Noumenon
3.4 / 5 (67) May 28, 2012
The vast majority of Canadians exist snuggled up to the [USA border, as can be seen from any nighttime satellite image], like baby piglets suckling their mothers tete, clearly relying on the USA's capitalistic greatness.
Noumenon
3.5 / 5 (65) May 28, 2012
The far left pick and choose what industry to admonish based purely on bias ideology. Thus, the oil industry is demonized for a statistically few accidents, while liberal unionized public school's in the richest country on earth only comes in like 26th place in education standards. Was that an accident or planned?


Which causes far more damage than killing a few fish.
ForFreeMinds
2.3 / 5 (6) May 28, 2012
The authors main reasoning goes: government spending on social welfare reduces government spending on other social welfare. Thus, we should spend on social welfare. Spending where we take from some, and give to other individuals. Not given to the "general public" but to individuals.

Not considered: ending government spending on social welfare and allowing those who toil to keep more of the fruit of their labor, for their own wishes (including the social welfare of themselves, their family and for other desired goals of those who've created the wealth in the first place).

Not considered: the social and societal cost on those who toil to produce the funds taken from them for others. The incentives government welfare creates to not produce and instead become a leech to others.
Noumenon
3.4 / 5 (66) May 28, 2012
"The oil industry has a remarkable low accident rate in general"- Noumenon


... there are over 100 oil spills currently occurring currently in America right now. - Vendicar

http://oceana.org...pill-map


Your idiotic source of data, while passable fodder for Huffington Post readers, is complete non-sense and demonstrates how gullible or dishonest you are.

Those 100 "oil spills" indicated in your link, are simply reports from phone calls reported by anyone claiming to see some (tiny) "sheen", with unknown source.

According to the following links, oil leaks from drilling account for a tiny fraction off all oil leaks, and a tiny fraction of the volume of oil extracted. Also, there currently is only one minor leak occurring in the North America.

http://www.manhat...8_t1.gif

http://en.wikiped...l_spills
Noumenon
3.4 / 5 (67) May 28, 2012
The following is a typical example provided by your own idiotic activist link...

" CALLER IS REPORTING A PARTIALLY SUBMERGED VESSEL WITH A SHEEN IN THE WATER. THE AFT OF THE VESSEL IS SUBMERGED AND THE SHEEN IS ABOUT 10 FOOT BY 10 FOOT AND GREENISH OR SILVER IN COLOR. THE OWNER DID NOT PROVIDED INFORMATION ON HOW MUCH FUEL MAY BE ONBOARD."

So according to VD, an overturned fishing boat reported by an activist with the mentality of a PETA member, counts as an oil rig disaster,.. bahahahaha.

You do know that oil exists naturally in the ground, right? As I've shown above, natural oil leaks far surpass that caused by man, assuming man is not natural, which since he is, 100% of all oil leaks are natural.
Noumenon
3.5 / 5 (65) May 28, 2012
Canibalism a new element in Conservative American State.

"According to published reports, Miami Police shot and killed a man off the MacArthur Causeway when they caught him eating another man's face Saturday afternoon."

http://www.local1...dex.html

Witness the inevitable Collapse of Capitalism.


So, you admonish ryggesogn2 for using "The Freeman" as a source, but then immediately turn around and associate the above story with conservatives and capitalism?!
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) May 28, 2012
"She said: 'There are 10 foetuses here, all aborted this morning. You can take them. We are a state hospital and don't charge anything.

'Normally, we doctors take them home to eat all free. Since you don't look well, you can take them.'

Not every state hospital is as generous with its dead embryos as the Health Centre for Women and Children. "
http://www.hereti...ina.html
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) May 28, 2012
"The South Korean government has been investigating capsules made of human flesh since last year when a monthly magazine released a lengthy report about the use of dead infants in traditional medicines. The reports said the infants and fetuses were purchased illegally from hospitals."
http://latimesblo...ins.html
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (4) May 28, 2012
"She said: 'There are 10 foetuses here, all aborted this morning. You can take them. We are a state hospital and don't charge anything.

'Normally, we doctors take them home to eat all free. Since you don't look well, you can take them.'

Not every state hospital is as generous with its dead embryos as the Health Centre for Women and Children. "
http://www.hereti...ina.html
Perhaps they were taking their bible literally?

"26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body." -matt26

-Which catholics take to mean literally during the eucharist. See also:
http://www.erranc...he_Bible
Russkiycremepuff
1 / 5 (4) May 28, 2012
Wrong!! As usual the Ottotard injects his religious rantings into a topic about welfare.
Catholics do not take it literally; it is mere symbolism that approximates being one with the Christ.
And to come to such conclusion, Ottotard must have interviewed millions of Catholics, which is doubtful.
Eric_B
1 / 5 (1) May 29, 2012
ryggesogn2 is a religious fanatic.

in case anyone didn't know.
Vendicar_Decarian
2 / 5 (2) May 29, 2012
It goes with the territory. Once you begin down the path of irrationality, delusional madness is the ultimate destination.

"ryggesogn2 is a religious fanatic." - Eric_B

RyggTard has reached the end of the line.

Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (2) May 29, 2012
I think that this is entirely possible and RyggTard provides a wonderful example of what happens when you isolate yourself from the real world.

All things are possible at Zombo.com and CATO.org.

"The South Korean government has been investigating capsules made of human flesh since last year when a monthly magazine released a lengthy report about the use of dead infants in traditional medicines." - RyggTard
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (2) May 29, 2012
Good Question.

"How many socialist Canadians" - RyggTard

Probably around 85%.
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (2) May 29, 2012
The difference of course, is that my story is news. While RyggTard provides nothing but fantasy. You know like him quoting from Libertarian Circle Jerk publications like "The Freemen", or wacktard blogs like "TheHeritic.org"....

"So, you admonish ryggesogn2 for using "The Freeman" as a source, but then immediately turn around and associate the above story with conservatives and capitalism?" - NumenTard

Because of NumenTard's mental disease, he is apparently incapable of distinguishing between the two.
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (2) May 29, 2012
Gosh, I haven't seen any low life Christians claiming that Asians were eating babies since the time of Jerry Fallwell was caught lying about it.

'Normally, we doctors take them home to eat all free. Since you don't look well, you can take them.' - RyggTard

If you can't believe what you read at RyggTard's source blog heritical.com, who can you believe?

Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (2) May 29, 2012
From RyggTard's source Heritical.org.

"While it is scarcely possible that Jews do not know they are practicing deceit and fraud when they cozen goyim, it is likely that they feel much as do members of our race when they shoot deer or ducks from blinds, but we can only make precarious guesses about their own feelings about their religion. What is clear is its usefulness to them in their attacks on other races." -

http://www.hereti...s07.html

Odd how RyggTard's fascist ideology is associated with anti-jewish sentiment found at the above link.

Can you explain it RyggTard?

Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (2) May 29, 2012
Also from RyggTard's source heritical.org.

"This hypothesis is open to the objection that, so far as we can tell, a distinct change has taken place in the Jews' activity in this century and at approximately the time of the "Protocols." Before this, the aliens seem to have been content to exploit the Aryans and, in biological terms, feed on them; the present objective is obviously extermination of our species through mongrelization and massacres" -

http://www.hereti...s09.html

Can you explain your association with that sentiment RyggTard?

Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (2) May 29, 2012
And again from RyggTard's reference.

"In the Holocaust, many sinister features may be duplicate and assumed. For example, any large hospital has a crematorium but the installations in the concentration camps have been imbued with deep significance. Auschwitz, the largest camp by far, had a typical population of 70,0003 and so the absence of such a facility would have been unusual. A similar situation may exist with the gas used to fumigate clothes and buildings in attempts to control the lice which were the vector of typhus." - Holocaust as Contagion

http://www.hereti...sci.html

Why is Libertarian RyggTard associating himself with these views?

Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) May 29, 2012
And finally from RyggTard's reference.

"Firstly, let me introduce myself. My name is Buster and I am a Dog, a Staffordshire Bull Terrier to be precise. I live on one of the outer-city farms with my master, Mr. Sheep. It is the year 14051 but counted from when I do not know." -

http://www.hereti...ion.html

Sadly, the above link makes more sense than the majority of RyggTard's posts.
cerium
1 / 5 (2) May 29, 2012
This should throw the Broken Window Fallacy out of the window when it comes to calculating the cost of special interests. While those who utilize this fallacy in their arguments against subsidies claim that the hidden cost of those subsidies is ignored, they, themselves, tend to ignore the hidden costs of poverty and unemployment that results from the inefficiencies of the economic system, and which hamper the economy further.
Nexus789
3 / 5 (3) May 29, 2012
Nice to see the Ayn Rand libertarian wing nuts are well represented with their nastiness to those less well off than them and a complete lack of understanding as to how the political and economic system of their own country works. The rather daft and idiotic belief in the 'free market' and the myth of capitalism is rather sad and quaint. Tax cuts would be suicidal and would pour more fuel on the raging debt fire.

The funny thing is that the largest 'planned' economy in the world was never the USSR it was and still is the Industrial Military Complex of the US. Free market is myth as all markets are regulated - either directly or indirectly
Dr Who
4 / 5 (4) May 29, 2012
Its been shown time and time again that theres a correlation between the social welfare spending... not that we spend too much.

There's a BIG problem with this statement - it's completely logical!

Anything this logical is necessarily unintelligible to politicians on CapitAl Hill, who believe that unemployment compensation and food stamps are only "spent by drug addicts to buy drugs." Please search the wise quotes of Orrin Hatch and other Republicans like him for a treatise on this line of impaired reasoning.

There are no clear cut answers, however one thing is apparent. All the money spent to continue Bush tax cuts as incentives to stimulate jobs have failed, and the money is going into the pockets of the CEOs. Time to make big business accountable BIG time. I vote to begin a campaign of "trickle up" economics wherein there are NO tax incentives and NO breaks and NO bailouts for big business. Let them make money the old fashioned way... by EARNING it!!!
Dr Who
1.4 / 5 (11) May 29, 2012
LOL, what a disgusting piece of left-wing college progaganda?... All so we can have the external optics of good intentions but not end results.


I hope this guy never gets the chance to reproduce because we need to breed this level of ignorance out of society. The "impoverished" need to be given hundreds of billions of dollars by the rich of this country in terms of psychotherapy and education. This alone will break the trend that propagates itself.

I vote to sell VPs and CEOs into indentured servitude, to confiscate all their resources, and to use the funds in the "get America on it's feet" campaign. Counseling and education are what is needed, not rant (like that above) from people who don't know how to move a pawn on a chessboard.

People like this guy make me want to vomit!
Noumenon
3.4 / 5 (70) May 29, 2012
I vote to sell VPs and CEOs into indentured servitude, to confiscate all their resources, and to use the funds


Even if you confiscated all the wealth from the top 5%, you would not make a noticeable dent in the USA national debt. The size of the debt is indication that the government is incompetent with tax payers money. Once, you have stolen the wealth from the top 5%, and tossed it down the black hole that is government spending, you will reduce government tax revenue by more than half, because the top 5% pay the bulk,.... not to mention they're the ones who employee people to begin with.

In anycase, America is NOT a socialist country, so your idiotic desire above, can not occur. In a free country, the wealth accumulated by individual private citizens is protected private property by law.

You whine about how much CEO's make, as if that had to do with anything, never complain about the vast fraud in the welfare system, & waste in government which is off the charts stupid.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) May 29, 2012
Bush tax cuts as incentives to stimulate jobs have failed,

No.
What IS killing jobs is an out of control regulatory and taxes from the current regime.
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (15) May 29, 2012
ryggesogn2 is a religious fanatic.

in case anyone didn't know.


It is the religious 'fanatics' that VOLUNTARILY GIVE of their time, talent and treasure to aid the poor.
And these religious 'fanatics' have been doing this for hundreds of years, long before the state started plundering wealth to buy the votes of the poor.
Before the modern welfare state people created mutual aid societies. Some were founded by religious 'fanatics'.
"Welfare before the Welfare State "
http://mises.org/daily/5388
The welfare state does not address is the individual. The state does not really care if the individual actually gets off welfare and prefers he stays on welfare to increase the size and power of the state. This creates resentment in those whose wealth is plundered and the entitlement in the recipients does nothing to elevate their self-worth. They remain dependent and they know it.
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (2) May 29, 2012
Yes. Americans enjoy one of the lowest tax burdens of any people on earth.

"Even if you confiscated all the wealth from the top 5%, you would not make a noticeable dent in the USA national debt." - NumenTard

Vendicar_Decarian
1.4 / 5 (10) May 29, 2012
Not by a long shot.

"The size of the debt is indication that the government is incompetent with tax payers money." - NumenTard

The size of the U.S. debt is a result of the decade's long plan by Republicans and Libertarians to bankrupt America.

The Conservative program to Bankrupt America is known as "Starve the Beast".

It is well documented here.

Tax Cuts And 'Starving The Beast'

http://www.forbes...ett.html
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (2) May 29, 2012
Which is why America is collapsing and has no future.

"In anycase, America is NOT a socialist country" - NumenTard
Vendicar_Decarian
1.4 / 5 (10) May 29, 2012
American businesses are sitting on trillions in cash reserves and refuse to use them to hire new people. Rather they are continuing to outsource American Jobs to foreign nations.

"What IS killing jobs is an out of control regulatory and taxes from the current regime." = RyggTard

Ultimately the cause of America's rapid decline is Repubican party policies that have been designed to bankrupt the government.

ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) May 29, 2012
"Dolphins may learn harmful or undesirable behaviors, such as begging for food from humans, "
http://phys.org/n...ans.html

If mooching is bad for dolphins why not for humans?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (13) May 29, 2012
"In countless debates and conversations with modern proponents of social justice, I have noticed that they are less interested in justice than in material equality. They borrow the language of justice and the common good but have either forgotten or rejected the classical meanings of those terms."
"This is what John Paul wrote of economic initiative:

It is a right which is important not only for the individual but also for the common good. Experience shows us that the denial of this right, or its limitation in the name of an alleged equality of everyone in society, diminishes, or in practice absolutely destroys the spirit of initiative, that is to say the creative subjectivity of the citizen.

Read more: http://www.foxnew...wJi4SwCE

Welfare destroys the spirit of initiative in humans just as it does in dolphins who mooch from humans.
Vendicar_Decarian
1.4 / 5 (10) May 30, 2012
It is a pity you can't ask Ayn Rand the author of your Randite Ideology when she renounced her own ideology and began to suckle on the teat of government.

"If mooching is bad for dolphins why not for humans?" - RyggTard

Why do you think she renounced your principles, Tard Boy?
Vendicar_Decarian
1.4 / 5 (10) May 30, 2012
Gosh, RyggTard has gone from quoting literature from a neo-nazi site to posting literature from the most dishonest infotainment service in America - Faux News.

Here is a wonderful clip of Faux News lying to America.

http://www.youtub...RV-UTs9o

Poor RyggTard. Who will be his next source of "valid" information? George Iraq has nuclear weapons Bush?

Vendicar_Decarian
1.4 / 5 (10) May 30, 2012
More lying by Faux news.

http://www.youtub...=related

And again faux news is caught lying.

http://www.youtub...=related

Why is it that a chronic liar like RyggTard uses neo-nazi web sites and a dishonest news service as sources of his information?

Odd isn't it?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (13) May 30, 2012
"President George W. Bushs tax cuts did not cause the fiscal crisis of 2008. Our economic calamity came in a housing meltdown the result of years of administrations of both parties encouraging variable-interest, no-interest, little or no down payment, and no-document or liar loans that flooded people into homes they couldnt afford under traditional mortgage lending practices.

To its credit, the Bush administration twice advanced reforms to rein in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, major players in pushing bad loans. Each time it was blocked by powerful Democrats, Rep. Barney Frank of Massachusetts and Sen. Chris Dodd of Connecticut. "
"Conflating the housing bust and the Bush tax cuts is a way to distract the voters from the failure of the administrations nearly trillion-dollar stimulus and other policies to right the economy. "
http://www.suntim...ess.html
Origin
1 / 5 (4) May 30, 2012
The fiscal crisis of USA was caused with sudden raise of oil price, which was caused with end of Iraq war in the same way, like the raise of oil price at the 1975 (end of Vietnam war). These wars are very expensive and they consume a lotta oil, the transportation of which is expensive as well.

http://www.aether...food.jpg

http://www.newser...lon.html

The only thing, which I can recommend here is the responsible research and implementation of cold fusion. It has no meaning to demonstrate against oil wars, when we fuck the cold fusion for decades.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (13) May 30, 2012
"The rise in oil prices is not due to the laws of supply and demand regarding oil. It is the result of the continued fall of the dollar. As the Federal Reserve creates more money, the value of the dollar falls. As the value of the dollar falls and oil producers demand more and more for each barrel, the price of crude goes up. Despite what the politicians say about the oil companies, the greatest component of the price of gas is the cost of crude. Crude oil is about 67% of the price per gallon, 7% for refining, 11% for distribution and marketing, and 15% for taxes. Blaming the oil companies may be good for politics, but it is not good economics.

Read more: http://www.americ...wMOpM4yz
"
Dollar inflation supported the stock market bubble in the late 90s and housing bubble a few years later.
MandoZink
1.8 / 5 (10) May 30, 2012
Each time it was blocked by powerful Democrats, Rep. Barney Frank of Massachusetts and Sen. Chris Dodd of Connecticut.

Nice way to ignore history. The fiscal crisis began with the repeal of Sections 20 and 32 of the Glass-Steagall Act in the 1990s. That freed up banking firms and investment firms to begin creating a mess of unsound, subprime mortgages which they bundled up and traded back and forth, earning massive million-dollar fees for the traders. Others earned money by betting against the bad loans. It was a deregulation disaster that saw the eventual collapse of our economy after enriching the bankers.

Frank and Dodd were trying to correct the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act provisions that allowed it all to happen. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac had nothing to do with the Glass-Steagall repeal.

Frank and Dodd wanted the real problem fixed - the deregulation that opened the floodgates.
http://en.wikiped...gall_Act
MandoZink
3 / 5 (4) May 30, 2012
By the way, I learned much of this listening to an hour-long interview with one of the former bank CEOs who was involved. He described the feeding frenzy that ensued as a result of the Glass-Steagall Act repeal. This was THE onset of the eventual financial bust and was explained in detail by the ex-CEO, who admitted they were wrong. He also admitted that is the evil of unrestrained capitalism. I was surprised, but he didn't really seem too sorry. He had made out like a bandit.
kaasinees
1 / 5 (4) May 30, 2012
There are studies/schools that train people to abuse the law in a "legitimate" way to earn more money.... how sad is that?
Also law studies/schools teach fear of being watched will prevent people from committing crimes..

They are both mafias.. :/
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) May 30, 2012
The real problem was not repeal of GS, it was the guarantee of of these loans by the US govt.
That was the only way anyone would buy the securitized mortgages, they were guaranteed by the USA.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) May 30, 2012
"mortgage lenders didn't wake up one fine day deciding to junk long-held standards of creditworthiness in order to make ill-advised loans to unqualified borrowers. It would be closer to the truth to say they woke up to find the government twisting their arms and demanding that they do so - or else."
"The roots of this crisis go back to the Carter administration. That was when government officials, egged on by left-wing activists, began accusing mortgage lenders of racism and "redlining" because urban blacks were being denied mortgages at a higher rate than suburban whites.

The pressure to make more loans to minorities (read: to borrowers with weak credit histories) became relentless."
"two government-chartered mortgage finance firms, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, encouraged this "subprime" lending by authorizing ever more "flexible" criteria "
http://www.boston..._fiasco/
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) May 30, 2012
"Friday, November 7, 2003; Page E03

A top White House economist called yesterday for stronger regulation of Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and other government-sponsored housing financiers, saying that "even a small mistake" in managing their risks "could have ripple effects throughout the financial system." "
"Rep. Barney Frank (D-Mass.), the ranking Democrat on the House Financial Services Committee, said the administration's position is driven by concerns about the financial safety and soundness of the companies "to the exclusion of concern about housing."
"Mankiw said yesterday that the companies' federal charters feed perceptions that the government would bail them out of financial trouble. "
http://www.iii.co...=2395631
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (2) May 31, 2012
No one has claimed they did. It was his deregulation of the banking industry and the Libertarian/Randite ideology of Alan Greenspan - chairman of the FED - who believed the cornerstone of the Randite ideology that Corporations would never act against their own interest, and who decided to allow the banks to continue to inflate the housing bubble - created by George Bush - to grow to disastrous proportions.

Libertarian/Randite Free market Ideology caused the great Bush Recession of 2008.

This is the consensus view among economists..

"President George W. Bushs tax cuts did not cause the fiscal crisis of 2008" - RyggTard

Meanwhile Randite's are quickly trying to rewrite history in an effort to excuse their perpetually failed political/economic ideology.

Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) May 31, 2012
Bush's tax cuts vastly increased America's federal debt, by around 9 trillion dollars when you factor in America's war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan.

This money paid to military contractors and America's most wealthy individuals has greatly detracted from America's ability to properly manage the current grand recession.

"Conflating the housing bust and the Bush tax cuts is a way to distract the voters from the failure of the administrations nearly trillion-dollar stimulus and other policies to right the economy. " - RyggTard

It would have been a very valuable lesson if there had been a fiscal Conservative in the U.S. white house rather than a sensible Liberal. Most Americans would now be living in the streets and begging for food in soup lines, just as they did during the Great Depression.

Libertarians Randites and Republicans are determined convert a recovering recession into a grand decades long economic depression.
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (2) May 31, 2012
RyggTard has been repeating his lie for years.

Forbes doesn't agree with him...

http://www.forbes...sh2.html

"The rise in oil prices is not due to the laws of supply and demand regarding oil. It is the result of the continued fall of the dollar." - RyggTard

Neither does Bloomberg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-oGhVTEF0JNI/TtPt-mjBDCI/AAAAAAAAGA4/Dm0A7oMtSkw/s400/Real Crude Prices.jpg

Or the National Energy Policy Institute.

http://energyforu...9-BP.png
UleeUggams
5 / 5 (2) May 31, 2012
OMG it's ok to send our tax dollars to foriegn countries that hate us keep up the good work eventually america will weaken and the world will have to find something else to hate
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) May 31, 2012
OMG UleeFoolie doesn't actually think that the U.S. has any meaningful foreign aid program does he?

Per capita, the U.S. is the least generous first world nation on earth.

If you exclude military aid - which is little more than a stimulus program for the American Military Industrial Complex - the U.S. essentially has no foreign aid program.

"OMG it's ok to send our tax dollars to foriegn countries" - UleeFoolie

It is one of the reasons why Amercia (As Romney spell it) is so hated around the world.
Noumenon
3.5 / 5 (66) May 31, 2012
Per capita, the U.S. is the least generous first world nation on earth.


That is patently false,... not surprising from VD as It makes up Its own reality as it goes along, and will say anything in support of its delusion and to maintain its lack of credibility.

http://www.thetak...country/
Noumenon
3.4 / 5 (70) May 31, 2012
Everyone knows these basic facts except VD,...

http://philanthro.../130137/

VD only counts the gov sponsored generosity, because his mental infliction would rather the rich, who pay the bulk of the taxes, do the giving than him,... such is his profound selfishness.

Similar studies have shown that conservatives are more generous than liberals as individuals, on account of this.

http://dailycalle...iberals/

http://www.realcl...giv.html

http://www.nj.com...ves.html

Finally, what our military has done for the benefit people around the world does not need to be stated as it is clear historical fact.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) May 31, 2012
http://publicinte...ents.png

As can be seen from the above chart. Virtually ALL of America's - pityfull - foreign aid goes to military programs in Afghanistan, Israel, Pakistan and Iraq.

Per Capita, America is the least generous first world nation on earth.
Noumenon
3.4 / 5 (70) May 31, 2012
http://publicintelligence.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/foreign-aid-2009-2011-top-recipients.png

As can be seen from the above chart. Virtually ALL of America's - pityfull - foreign aid goes to military programs in Afghanistan, Israel, Pakistan and Iraq.

Per Capita, America is the least generous first world nation on earth. - Vendicar Troll


More dishonest trolling I see.

1) You can't in fact legitimately discount US military aide because the military is the instrument used in orchestrating the most gov aide,... i.e. In "nation building" as an aspect of war,.. support of united Nations peacekeeping missions, NATO missions, etc.

2) I've already proven above that per individual, the USA is the most generous. This must be added to government foreign aide, which requires in turn that military spending and foreign aide be disentangled. You would rather discount those two factors because you are dishonest.
Noumenon
3.4 / 5 (70) May 31, 2012
As can be seen on the link below, the USA gives BY FAR the most in dollar amount.

http://www.mint.c...0507201/

It is meaningless to say "per capita", because a) to those receiving the aide, the number of Americans is irrelevant, only the raw dollar amount is helpful,.... b) "per capita" is dependent on form of government and how much tax money is taken for gov sponsored aide. The true amount per capita must include amounts given by individuals, as I pointed out above.
ryggesogn2
2.1 / 5 (7) May 31, 2012
The US Navy was one of the first to provide immediate assistance after the Indonesian and Japanese tsunamis. Rescuing, providing medical aid and flying in supplies.

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