Nasa finds sea ice decline driving rise in Arctic air pollutants

Mar 02, 2012
Bromine explosion on March 13, 2008 across the western Northwest Territories in Canada looking toward the Mackenzie Mountains at the horizon, which prevented the bromine from crossing over into Alaska. Image credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech/University of Bremen

(PhysOrg.com) -- Drastic reductions in Arctic sea ice in the last decade may be intensifying the chemical release of bromine into the atmosphere, resulting in ground-level ozone depletion and the deposit of toxic mercury in the Arctic, according to a new NASA-led study.

The connection between changes in the Arctic Ocean's ice cover and bromine chemical processes is determined by the interaction between the salt in , and sunlight. When these mix, the salty ice releases bromine into the air and starts a cascade of chemical reactions called a "bromine explosion." These reactions rapidly create more molecules of bromine monoxide in the atmosphere. Bromine then reacts with a gaseous form of mercury, turning it into a pollutant that falls to Earth's surface.

Bromine also can remove ozone from the lowest layer of the atmosphere, the troposphere. Despite ozone's beneficial role blocking in the stratosphere, ozone is a pollutant in the ground-level troposphere.

A team from the United States, Canada, Germany, and the United Kingdom, led by Son Nghiem of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif., produced the study, which has been accepted for publication in the Journal of Geophysical Research- Atmospheres. The team combined data from six NASA, and satellites, field observations and a model of how air moves in the atmosphere to link Arctic sea ice changes to bromine explosions over the , extending to the Amundsen Gulf in the .

"Shrinking summer sea ice has drawn much attention to exploiting Arctic resources and improving maritime trading routes," Nghiem said. "But the change in sea ice composition also has impacts on the environment. Changing conditions in the Arctic might increase bromine explosions in the future."

Bromine explosion observed by scientists at the University of Bremen on March 14, 2008 over Alaska and the Beaufort Sea (upper panel), using data from the German Aerospace Center (DLR)-developed Global Ozone Monitoring Experiment-2 (GOME-2) instrument aboard the European Organization for the Exploitation of Meterological Satellites (EUMETSAT) MetOp-A satellite. The data reveal a vortex (spiral) pattern on the left side of the image. The lower panel shows sea ice cover at the time, as measured by NASA’s QuikScat spacecraft. Perennial ice is shown in white, while salty seasonal ice is depicted in dark blue. The distribution of bromine conforms to the cold rising air patterns at the time, including the vortex, and traces the transport of bromine in the troposphere, mostly at altitudes less than 500 meters. Image credit: NASA-JPL/Caltech/University of Bremen/University of Washington

The study was undertaken to better understand the fundamental nature of bromine explosions, which first were observed in the Canadian Arctic more than two decades ago. The team of scientists wanted to find if the explosions occur in the troposphere or higher in the stratosphere.

Nghiem's team used the topography of mountain ranges in Alaska and Canada as a "ruler" to measure the altitude at which the explosions took place. In the spring of 2008, satellites detected increased concentrations of bromine, which were associated with a decrease of gaseous mercury and ozone. After the researchers verified the satellite observations with field measurements, they used an atmospheric model to study how the wind transported the bromine plumes across the Arctic.

The model, together with satellite observations, showed the Alaskan Brooks Range and the Canadian Richardson and Mackenzie mountains stopped bromine from moving into Alaska's interior. Since most of these mountains are lower than 6,560 feet (2,000 meters), the researchers determined the bromine explosion was confined to the lower troposphere.

"If the bromine explosion had been in the stratosphere, 5 miles [8 kilometers] or higher above the ground, the mountains would not have been able to stop it and the bromine would have been transported inland," Nghiem said.

After the researchers found that bromine explosions occur in the lowest level of the atmosphere, they could relate their origin to sources on the surface. Their model, tracing air rising from the salty ice, tied the bromine releases to recent changes in that have led to a much saltier sea ice surface.

In March 2008, the extent of year-round perennial sea ice eclipsed the 50-year record low set in March 2007, shrinking by 386,100 square miles (one million square kilometers) -- an area the size of Texas and Arizona combined. Seasonal ice, which forms over the winter when seawater freezes, now occupies the space of the lost perennial ice. This younger ice is much saltier than its older counterpart because it has not had time to undergo processes that drain its sea salts. It also contains more frost flowers -- clumps of ice crystals up to four times saltier than ocean waters -- providing more salt sources to fuel bromine releases.

Nghiem said if sea ice continues to be dominated by younger saltier ice, and Arctic extreme cold spells occur more often, bromine explosions are likely to increase in the future.

Nghiem is leading an field campaign this month that will provide new insights into bromine explosions and their impacts. NASA's , Ozone, and Mercury Experiment (BROMEX) involves international contributions by more than 20 organizations.

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Vendicar_Decarian
0.9 / 5 (44) Mar 02, 2012
But there is a link to a Heartland Institute web site in the advertising space at the top of this article that claims that the Arctic ice cap is not melting and it's all part of the "fake gate" conspiracy against them and the American People, by Radical Science.

I guess Antony Watts (a nobody who runs a popular anti-science blog) and who has received hundreds of thousands of dollars from the Libertarian Heartland Institute for advancing their anti-science goals, is right when he supports their claims with cherry picked data and mindless inuendo.

Perhaps the Heartland Institute is right, the world is really cooling, and as they say on their various web sites, smoking isn't dangerous and is a lifestyle choice that children should think carefully about.
MR166
1.7 / 5 (22) Mar 02, 2012
MR166
1.7 / 5 (23) Mar 02, 2012
Look at the graph, sea ice has been pretty constant since 2005.

NASA is desperate for funds and saying that the sky is falling is the easiest way to beg for a bigger allowance.
Vendicar_Decarian
0.8 / 5 (44) Mar 02, 2012
MR166 posts nothing but stupidity

Meanwhile back her in reality land.

http://arctic.atm...ries.jpg
MR166
1.8 / 5 (21) Mar 02, 2012
Vendicar is there any reason why that chart does not go back to 1953 when the pole was almost ice free???
Vendicar_Decarian
0.8 / 5 (44) Mar 02, 2012
It doesn't because the pole wasn't almost ice free in 1953.

Do you intend to remain a liar for the rest of your life MR166?
Vendicar_Decarian
0.8 / 5 (44) Mar 02, 2012
"Look at the graph, sea ice has been pretty constant since 2005." = Liar166

Meanwhile back here on planet reality..

http://arctic.atm...ries.jpg
MR166
1.8 / 5 (20) Mar 02, 2012
Oh did I make a mistake? Sorry about that, try 1959.

http://www.real-s...-17-1959
thermodynamics
3.5 / 5 (11) Mar 02, 2012
166: Here is another page on the same site you looked at:

http://ocean.dmi....x.uk.php

"Since the 1970s the extent of sea ice has been measured from satellites. From these measurements we know that the sea ice extent today is significantly smaller than 30 years ago."

I am surprised that you would blatantly cherry pick from a 5 year graph that shows very low levels over the past decade. Then, not even read the rest of the story at the same web site.
thermodynamics
4 / 5 (8) Mar 02, 2012
Oh did I make a mistake? Sorry about that, try 1959.

http://www.real-s...-17-1959


166: Another very interesting quote. Actually the photo was from summer of 1958.

http://www.navsou...8578.htm

There was a commemorative stamp issued on March 17, 1959. (same site). That was not the date the Skate was there.

So, what does that say about your website URL? Having been in the Navy, I do know where to look for ship information. Do you, or do you just take these sponsored web site at face value?
thermodynamics
5 / 5 (7) Mar 02, 2012
One more note. I actually remember when the Skate did make some winter journeys to the pole. However, the reports at the time had her surfacing through the ice. As for open spots, the ice is not homogeneous so I would expect for there to be spots you could come up through. If I recall correctly, they looked at the ice thickness with sonar and were able to decide where to punch up. Surfacing through ice is still done.
MR166
1.6 / 5 (20) Mar 02, 2012
Oh give me a break! Summer of 58 or Winter of 59 big deal. I will guarantee that if the North Pole ever went ice free this summer it would be an "Unprecedented" catastrophe and become an unquestionable proof that CO2 will soon end the world as we know it.

As far as the Sea Ice data, ask the Greenland Climate Research Center the reason for the time frame. Perhaps they also have been paid off by "Big Business".
djr
4.1 / 5 (9) Mar 02, 2012
So - an international team of scientists does research - that is going to be published in a peer reviewed journal. And MR166 posts a picture of a submarine to refute this research. If you go back to the Naval web site - the legend on the picture reads - "taken in summer, perhaps in August 1958". MR166 - what exactly is the point u r making? Does this picture taken "perhaps in August 1958" refute the research being reported here?
Excalibur
2.6 / 5 (17) Mar 02, 2012
Oh give me a break!

Charlatanry deserves no quarter.
Vendicar_Decarian
0.7 / 5 (43) Mar 02, 2012
Sorry Tard boy, but the Arctic wasn't ice free in 1959 either.

"Oh did I make a mistake? Sorry about that, try 1959." - MR166Tard

Your picture shows a sub which has surfaced in a crack in the ice which closed 2 hours later.

Typical arctic conditions.

Vendicar_Decarian
0.7 / 5 (43) Mar 02, 2012
"I will guarantee that if the North Pole ever went ice free this summer it would be an "Unprecedented" catastrophe." - MR166Tard

Arctic ice is currently 1 week from maximum extent, yet the following graphic shows that even at the pole, right now, ice coverage is less than 100%.

http://arctic.atm....000.png

Poor Denialist Tard.
NotParker
1.8 / 5 (19) Mar 03, 2012
Most ice in 7 years for this date.

http://arctic-roo..._ext.png
Vendicar_Decarian
0.7 / 5 (43) Mar 03, 2012
Parker Tard is the king of irrelevancy. Long term averages are not defined by days or hours, just as climate is not defined by todays weather.

Here is a nice little interactive plot showing the real northern ice extent.

http://arctic.atm...ive.html

And here is a nice little graphic showing the ice extent for the last 2 years followed by the anomoly.

http://arctic.atm...ctic.png

And here is a graphic showing how the sea ice has been consistently declining over history.

http://arctic.atm...ries.jpg

Poor Parker Tard. I don't think he will ever manage to be anything but a fool and a liar.
NotParker
1.6 / 5 (20) Mar 03, 2012
Most ice at this time of year for 7 years


Yes.

And, February global temperature is -.12C below 0.

Same temp as 1980 (among other years).

http://wattsupwit...ro-line/

djr
3.8 / 5 (10) Mar 03, 2012
And, February global temperature is -.12C below 0.
Oh shock - you r using WhatsUpWithThat for your cherry picked data again - they don't have a political agenda do they? Try looking at a full set of data - instead of picking the one that fits your agenda. Hey - here's an idea - go back to the original data - the full data set http://data.giss....aphs_v3/ Wow - does not quite fit your hypothesis now....
NotParker
1.6 / 5 (19) Mar 03, 2012
And, February global temperature is -.12C below 0.
Oh shock - you r using WhatsUpWithThat


The data is from University of Alabama , one of the two satellite global temperature systems.

http://www.drroys...2-deg-c/

The trouble with GISS is that they make data up by extrapolating data in the arctic.

UAH and RSS cover the whole globe.

NotParker
1.6 / 5 (20) Mar 03, 2012
"Every day since February 15 has been the coldest in at least the last decade."

http://www.real-s...ontinues

Original data here:

http://discover.i...sutemps/
NotParker
1.4 / 5 (18) Mar 03, 2012
"Every day since February 15 has been the coldest in at least the last decade."

http://www.real-s...ontinues


RSS is also pretty cold.

http://www.woodfo...01/trend

At the beginning of 1980 it was .01

At the beginning of 2012 it was -.06

32 years later. Same temperature.

http://www.woodfo...79/trend
kaasinees
2.1 / 5 (15) Mar 03, 2012
NotParker you are retarded beyond words.

You really think my country would invest billions in fighting global warming since a decade if it was not real?
Get back to Earth dude.
MR166
1.9 / 5 (18) Mar 03, 2012
"You really think my country would invest billions in fighting global warming since a decade if it was not real?"

90% of the western world is bankrupt due to poor financial decisions and crony capitalism. So unless you are lucky enough to live in that 10% the answer would have to be yes and then I am sure that the investment would be minimal not billions.
Vendicar_Decarian
0.8 / 5 (43) Mar 03, 2012
A whopper of a lie from MR166 and his fellow denialists.

Hmmm Note the caption on MR166's page.

"http://www.real-s...-17-1959" - MR166

It reads... "Ice Free North Pole At Peak Ice On March 17, 1959"

But the source of the picture according to the page is here.

http://www.real-s...8578.htm

And at that page the caption to the image is...

"Skate (SSN-578),taken in summer, perhaps in August 1958."

So the caption of MR166's page is a lie. Not only is the picture of the sub from the north pole, it isn't even in winter.

Once again the Denialists have been caught telling lies that are whoppers.

Vendicar_Decarian
0.7 / 5 (42) Mar 03, 2012
Thanx for the weather report. Get back to us when you have something to say about climate.

"Every day since February 15 has been the coldest in at least the last decade." - ParkerTard
Estevan57
2 / 5 (28) Mar 03, 2012
Don't feed the trolls. Set the slider, hit the filter button, enjoy.

Why do anti science people come to this particular site?

To see what they enemy scientists are up to?
Vendicar_Decarian
0.9 / 5 (45) Mar 03, 2012
"Why do anti science people come to this particular site?" - Estevan

The advertising agencies behind the various denialist movements have made it a goal to have at least one of their representatives on every major website employed to keep their denialist message in public view.

NotParker
1.6 / 5 (20) Mar 03, 2012
"Every day since February 15 has been the coldest in at least the last decade."


Arctic Ice now in the grey zone and closing in on the long term average.

http://arctic-roo..._ext.png

Brrr. The real world is cold.
Vendicar_Decarian
0.8 / 5 (44) Mar 03, 2012
Arctic ice extent now 726,000 square kilometers below historical averages with less than 6 days from peak ice extent.

http://arctic.atm...ctic.png

http://arctic.atm...ctic.png

"Arctic Ice now in the grey zone and closing in on the long term average." = ParkerTard
kaasinees
1.7 / 5 (11) Mar 03, 2012
then I am sure that the investment would be minimal not billions.

In September 2008, the Delta commission presided by Dutch politician Cees Veerman advised in a report that the Netherlands would need a massive new building program to strengthen the country's water defenses against the anticipated effects of global warming for the next 190 years. This commission was created in September 2007 after the damage caused by Hurricane Katrina to New Orleans prompted reflection and preparations. Those included drawing up worst-case scenarios for evacuations. The plans included more than 100 billion, or $144 billion, in new spending through the year 2100 for measures, such as broadening coastal dunes and strengthening sea and river dikes.

http://en.wikiped...tawerken

We do water projects like these all over the world.
Excalibur
2.6 / 5 (17) Mar 03, 2012
NotParker you are retarded beyond words.

Get back to Earth dude.

Better yet, send him out of range of Earth communications.
NotParker
1.6 / 5 (19) Mar 03, 2012
Arctic ice extent now 726,000 square kilometers below historical averages


4.8%

"Historical" means 30 years. The arctic in the 30s was just as warm.

"However, on the other side of the Arctic, ice extent in the Bering Sea was much greater than average, reaching the second-highest levels for January in the satellite record."

Antarctic Ice is above average.

http://arctic.atm...ctic.png
Vendicar_Decarian
0.7 / 5 (42) Mar 04, 2012
"Arctic ice extent now 726,000 square kilometers below historical averages" - Vendicar Decarian

"4.8%" - Parker Tard.

A 5.1% reduction in ice extent at the peak. And increasing
A 37. % reduction in ice extent at the minimum. And increasing

"Antarctic Ice is above average." - ParkerTard

By 130,000 square kilometers.

Global total is therefore negative to the tune of 600,000 square kilometers.

Poor innumerate Parker Tard.

NotParker
1.6 / 5 (19) Mar 04, 2012
And increasing


The amount of ice at this time of year has definitely increased.

And Antarctic Ice is above normal.

Yes VD, you feel guilty for being alive and a waste of space and wish the world to end.

But it won't. Ice is off by less than 5% overall.

Only idiots panic over a 4% change.

Its getting colder. Thats worth worrying about.
NotParker
1.5 / 5 (17) Mar 04, 2012
The amount of ice at this time of year has definitely increased.


Right now the global sea ice anomaly is lower than it was in 1980.

http://arctic.atm...rend.jpg

And in 2008 it was 1,000,000 sq km above normal.

It fluctuates ... unlike your IQ which is low all the time.
Vendicar_Decarian
0.7 / 5 (42) Mar 04, 2012
Thanx for the weather report Tard Boy. Get back to us when you have something to say about the climate.

"The amount of ice at this time of year has definitely increased."- ParkerTard

From this date last year.
Vendicar_Decarian
0.8 / 5 (44) Mar 04, 2012
Your lovely graph shows a rather obvious downward trend in global ice extent Tard Boy.

"http://arctic.atm...end.jpg" = Parker Tard
MR166
1.6 / 5 (19) Mar 04, 2012
Look VD the bottom line is that the planet has been warming for the past 18,000 years. Sea ice is hugely affected by ocean current oscillations so a 10% anomaly is not unheard of. The real argument is whether or not man's contribution to the CO2 levels are significant or not. That my man is FAR from certain. CO2 increases farm yields and allows plants to grow with less water. Lastly, 1 degree of cooling will kill more people than 1 degree of warming.
NotParker
1.5 / 5 (17) Mar 04, 2012
Your lovely graph shows a rather obvious downward trend in global ice extent


The anomaly is the red line. It goes up and down. We are well within a normal range even for the very short satellite period.

VD is an end of the worlder. He and his ilk wants the Little Ice Age to come back and kill billions.

I don't.

kaasinees
1 / 5 (4) Mar 05, 2012
Why dont they mine the bromine and search a use for it?
Shootist
1.6 / 5 (7) Mar 05, 2012
ground-level ozone depletion


at one time reducing ground level ozone was considered a good thing.
rubberman
2.5 / 5 (11) Mar 05, 2012
Look VD the bottom line is that the planet has been warming for the past 18,000 years. Sea ice is hugely affected by ocean current oscillations so a 10% anomaly is not unheard of. The real argument is whether or not man's contribution to the CO2 levels are significant or not. That my man is FAR from certain. CO2 increases farm yields and allows plants to grow with less water. Lastly, 1 degree of cooling will kill more people than 1 degree of warming.


Far from certain? In every warming event prior to man, CO2 followed warming, not this time. Pretty easy to prove when 270PPM was the highest level in the last million years, until we started burning fossil fuels....390 PPM and rising. Your 1 degree either way would really depend on where the maximum/minimum rise or fall took place when relating to how the human race would be affected.



rubberman
3 / 5 (12) Mar 05, 2012


VD is an end of the worlder. He and his ilk wants the Little Ice Age to come back and kill billions.

I don't.



Actually, we would like the planet and humanity to have a less bleak future than our current levels of consumption and emission will leave for future generations. The level of ignorance displayed by the "everything's just fine, business as usual" mentality is what will wind up killing billions. Watching you fumble your way through debate after debate about the subject of climate change, posting links which posess content that disproves the points you are trying argue, although superficially amusing, in the end just underscores the difficulty intelligent people with a conscience will have in affecting the changes towards sustainability.
NotParker
1.9 / 5 (17) Mar 05, 2012
[The LIA was the coldest period in 10,000 years. Thankfully the earth has recovered from that cold. The warming from 1910 to 1942 or so was considered to be totally natural.

Unfortunately for us, the last few years have been no warmer than the 42/44 peak indicating we are in the early stage of a 35 year or longer cooling period like the one from 1944 to 1979.
Vendicar_Decarian
0.6 / 5 (40) Mar 05, 2012
You made the exact same claim 2 weeks ago Liar. And when I posted a graphic showing that it has been cooling since end of the last glacial period, you recanted.

And now you are back telling the same lie over again.

Now, either you are mentally ill, or you are here to do nothing but tell lies.

http://www.global..._Rev_png

"Look VD the bottom line is that the planet has been warming for the past 18,000 years" - MR166
Vendicar_Decarian
0.7 / 5 (41) Mar 05, 2012
Yes, it was a largely regional cooling that dropped global temperatures by almost 0.8'C.

You can see it in the following graphic.

http://www.global...ison_png

Current temperatures are rising unnaturally rapidly on the right of that graphic, and now extend off the chart at 0.74'C

"[The LIA was the coldest period in 10,000 years." - ParkerTard
Vendicar_Decarian
0.7 / 5 (41) Mar 05, 2012
The last few years have been dominated by La-Nina cooling of the pacific which have kept global average temperatures artificially low.

Scientists have calculated that without this temporary cooling effect - and several other less significant temporary effects currently at work, global average temperatures have continued to rise.

One anthropogenic effect that is cooling the earth is the large emissions of particulates from Chinese coal fired power plants.

This is the same effect that caused to a great extent the reductions in global temperatures seen from 1940 to 1976.

1960 to 1976 produced a similar "plateau", as did 1900 to 1920, etc.

This will soon change.

"Unfortunately for us, the last few years have been no warmer than the 42/44 peak indicating we are in the early stage of a 35 year or longer cooling period like the one from 1944 to 1979." - ParkerTard

Do you intend to be a liar for the rest of your life ParkerTard?
Vendicar_Decarian
0.6 / 5 (40) Mar 05, 2012
From an immediate public health perspective, it still is.

"at one time reducing ground level ozone was considered a good thing." - Shootist
Vendicar_Decarian
0.6 / 5 (40) Mar 05, 2012
Your red line is declining quite precipitously. Well outside the normal range of behavior.

http://arctic.atm...rend.jpg

"The anomaly is the red line. It goes up and down. We are well within a normal range even for the very short satellite period." - ParkerTard
NotParker
1.5 / 5 (17) Mar 05, 2012
Your red line is declining quite precipitously.


The global sea ice red line is above normal.

Arctic sea ice is approaching normal today. Almost at the blue dotted line.

http://arctic-roo..._ext.png

VD is just an end of the worlder wearing a grey robe and carrying a sign that says "The End is Near".

The only end that is near is the end of the Holocene.

Ice Age soon.

MR166
1.7 / 5 (18) Mar 05, 2012
I love that last graph!!!

http://www.global...ison_png

VD it is amazing how the "True Believers", like your self, can produce more hockey sticks than the NHL. One of Michael Mann's biggest concerns was trying to hide the temperatures thru out the MWP so as not to dilute the credibility of his scam.

Greenland was settled by the Vikings as a farming community during that time and it is when people think they discovered NA. Recently a farmer was discovered there in what is NOW permafrost. I seriously doubt that the Vikings would have tried to bury someone in permafrost.
England was growing citrus fruits during that time.

ERGO-----It was a lot warmer during the MWP than it is today.

You can produce a lot of very convincing graphs with falsified data.

rubberman
2.7 / 5 (12) Mar 05, 2012
Can you even fathom the consequences of an MWP event starting today under the current circumstances? The fact that the MWP happened without any help from the human race should be a giant red flag considering what we are witnessing currently. If the 15 or so blatantly clear signs of global climate change are being caused by natural variability (ie: the 15 different drivers that denialists attribute to each example individually), then stacking that on top on man made forcings really does forecast doom and gloom for the not to distant future.
MR166
1.5 / 5 (16) Mar 05, 2012
Look at the bright side. Man has use almost 50% of the easily available hydrocarbons, so how much more CO2 can he really create. Unless we conserve and find alternate sources of cost effective energy soon ( 2 generations ) society will revert back to the standards of living prevalent in the 1800s!

Energy conservation and AGW do NOT share common goals. AGW is about higher taxes and increasing government power over the individual and energy conservation/ development of new power sources is about Energy Return on Energy Invested or ERoEI.
SteveS
3.8 / 5 (4) Mar 05, 2012
MR166
The Greenland vikings were not a farming community, they were pastoral. They were never able to grow grain because it was too cold.
NotParker
1.5 / 5 (17) Mar 05, 2012
Can you even fathom the consequences of an MWP event starting today under the current circumstances?


We almost had an MWP event. Now were are cooling and will be for next 25-75 years.

Cold kills.

Warmth is great for agriculture and humans.

Remeber when Erlich said the "population bomb" would kill us all? Instead it got a little warmer and we have no trouble feeding most people.

Cold will end most of us. We humans thrive when its warm.

SteveS
4 / 5 (3) Mar 06, 2012
England was growing citrus fruits during that time.


I do not believe this to be true, I would like to see some evidence for this statement.

kaasinees
2 / 5 (12) Mar 06, 2012
Remeber when Erlich said the "population bomb" would kill us all? Instead it got a little warmer and we have no trouble feeding most people.

And we are depleting most of the freshwater we ever found. Its a ticking time bomb.
SteveS
5 / 5 (3) Mar 06, 2012
Warmth is great for agriculture and humans.


Warmth, yes. Excessive heat no.

We humans thrive when the climate is stable.
MR166
1.5 / 5 (15) Mar 06, 2012
SteveS I have not been able to locate the article about growing citrus fruit in England but will post the link if I can find it. Most likely it appeared on the ClimateDepot website.
MR166
1.5 / 5 (15) Mar 06, 2012
"By the year 1000 the Viking societies numbered some 3,000 inhabitants on 300-400 farms. The Viking society survived for 500 years. The reason for its disappearance remains a great mystery, but a colder climate, conflicts with the Inuit people, European pirates, overgrazing and bouts of plague have all been put forward as possible causes of its demise."

I really doubt that they were importing grains or living on meat alone.

http://www.greenl...ede.aspx
SteveS
5 / 5 (2) Mar 06, 2012
I really doubt that they were importing grains or living on meat alone.


The literature is very clear about the growing conditions throughout the period on Norse settlement. All paleobotanical investigations confirm that the climate was not suitable for cereals.

http://www.collec...2551.pdf

https://dspace.st...rrig.pdf

http://nome.color...vern.pdf

Vendicar_Decarian
0.3 / 5 (37) Mar 06, 2012
Two months ago I provided you with several links to sites that document citrus farms currently in England.

Is your short term memory so poor?

"I have not been able to locate the article about growing citrus fruit in England" - MR166
Vendicar_Decarian
0.4 / 5 (37) Mar 06, 2012

A study by scientists at Stanford University found that a 2 degree Celsius increase in temperature would reduce the wheat-growing season by nine days and cut yields by up to 20 percent. After looking at nine years of data on wheat performance in northern India, the researchers concluded that extreme heat causes the plant to age faster,

http://www.earthi...in_drain


"Warmth is great for agriculture and humans. " - ParkerTard
MR166
1.5 / 5 (15) Mar 06, 2012
"As the archaeologists dug through the permafrost and removed the windblown glacial sand that filled the rooms, they found fragments of looms and cloth. Scattered about were other household belongings, including an iron knife, whetstones, soapstone vessels, and a double-edged comb. Whoever lived here departed so hurriedly that they left behind iron and caribou antler arrows, weapons needed for survival in this harsh country, medieval Europe's farthest frontier. What drove the occupants away? Where did they go? "

http://www.archae...eenland/

Notice how the archaeologists had to dig through permafrost to uncover the dwellings. Does suggest to you that Greenland might have been warmer then than it is today?
SteveS
3 / 5 (4) Mar 06, 2012
Notice how the archaeologists had to dig through permafrost to uncover the dwellings. Does suggest to you that Greenland might have been warmer then than it is today?


At the hight of the MWP southern Greenland was between 1 to 1.5 c warmer than it is was in the late twentieth century. So what does that prove? It does not prove that globally temperatures were that warm.
MR166
1.8 / 5 (16) Mar 06, 2012
Good God, are you trying to claim that the melting of Greenland is not one of the lynchpins of the CAGW religion????
rubberman
2.2 / 5 (10) Mar 06, 2012
"Notice how the archaeologists had to dig through permafrost to uncover the dwellings. Does suggest to you that Greenland might have been warmer then than it is today?"

They could have held off for a few years and they wouldn't have had to...

@NP - Good luck with that cooling forecast, the odds you would get in Vegas against that are so good you should go put a 10 spot on it....although they will thank you for your money and ask you if you need medical attention. As a matter of fact, coming into the height of a solar maximum with an El nino on the way...I'll take the bet and give you 10 to one odds, we can use 2011 as our starting point.
SteveS
3.7 / 5 (3) Mar 06, 2012
Good God, are you trying to claim that the melting of Greenland is not one of the lynchpins of the CAGW religion????


Greenland is losing mass at an increasing rate

http://www.colora...national
MR166
1.8 / 5 (16) Mar 06, 2012
Look Steve there is no doubt that we are somewhat near the temperatures of the MWP. Is that a problem? That period was one of great prosperity in Europe until it transitioned into cooling. If we add another degree to that there is no doubt that some locations would suffer but Canada and Russia would have better yields and more than make up the difference. The models that are the basis for the man made component of this change are highly suspect. Until we find rational and economically sound sources of energy to replace hydrocarbons there is not really much that can be done without causing millions to starve.
Vendicar_Decarian
0.4 / 5 (39) Mar 06, 2012
The Inuit have built structures on permafrost for thousands of years.

Are you that stupid to not know this?

"Notice how the archaeologists had to dig through permafrost to uncover the dwellings." - M166
SteveS
3 / 5 (4) Mar 06, 2012
Look Steve there is no doubt that we are somewhat near the temperatures of the MWP.


You are assuming that the MWP was a global event, where is your evidence for that?

If we add another degree to that there is no doubt that some locations would suffer


Central America, Africa, india, South East Asia

"After looking at nine years of data on wheat performance in northern India, the researchers concluded that extreme heat causes the plant to age faster" h/t Vendicar Decarian

but Canada and Russia would have better yields and more than make up the difference.


Do you have any supporting evidence for this statement?
MR166
1.8 / 5 (16) Mar 06, 2012
So Steve, I take it your solution is cap and trade, one world government and ceding your wealth and liberties to the same nations and corporations that have bankrupted the world. What exactly is your solution to the energy crisis? Is it solar, is it wind or perhaps there is some other form of power that you are aware of that does not require huge government subsidies to be viable? BTW don't bother to mention any "subsidies" that the oil and gas industries receive from the government. They pay more taxes, net of subsidies, to the government than any other industry. Wind and Solar companies are net receivers of taxes and subsidies.
NotParker
1.5 / 5 (15) Mar 06, 2012
You are assuming that the MWP was a global event, where is your evidence for that?


We already played this game with VD. I said pick a region without evidence for a MWP. Everyone he suggested I found a paper proving otherwise.

Which regions had no MWP?

Prove it.
SteveS
4 / 5 (4) Mar 06, 2012
MR166 how does you last post relate to anything I posted. Are you trying to change the subject?

If you dont want to carry on our discussion thats fine by me, but it looks bad if you just change the subject when asked to provide evidence for your statements.
NotParker
1.5 / 5 (15) Mar 06, 2012
Greenland is losing mass at an increasing rate


Higher elevations are gaining ice.

A recent study concluded Greenland was as warm or warmer in the 1930's and 40's and the rate of warming from 1920-1930 was about 50% higher than the warming from 1995-2005. One 2005 study found Greenland gaining ice in the interior higher elevations and thinning ice at the lower elevations.
SteveS
3 / 5 (4) Mar 06, 2012
NotParker

To avoid covering old ground can you link to your discussion with VD.
MR166
1.8 / 5 (16) Mar 06, 2012
The discussion is about man made global warming and man's CO2 emissions. If you think, as I do, that the vast majority of the warming is beyond man's control then the whole thread is pointless.
SteveS
5 / 5 (2) Mar 06, 2012
NotParker

Can you provide links to the Greenland studies you have referred to so that I can familiarise myself with them before responding
SteveS
5 / 5 (2) Mar 06, 2012
The discussion is about man made global warming and man's CO2 emissions. If you think, as I do, that the vast majority of the warming is beyond man's control then the whole thread is pointless.


If you keep changing the subject any further discussion is pointless, so I think we should just agree to differ.
NotParker
1.4 / 5 (9) Mar 06, 2012
Uninformed VD follower: MWP was regional


"The presence of old growth forest during those dates indicates that Glaciar Jorge Montt was upvalley of its present position before the commonly recognized Little Ice Age (LIA) period in Patagonia."

http://hockeyscht...was.html

Translation for VD followers:

The current position of the glacier indicates it was WARMER during the MWP (the period before the LIA), otherwise how could trees of that age have grown there.
Vendicar_Decarian
0.4 / 5 (38) Mar 07, 2012
"All Wheat (Including Durum)

World all wheat (including durum) production for 2010-2011 decreased by 35 Mt from 2009-2010 to 647.6 Mt. The decrease in production is due to lower yields and a decrease in the harvested area. The sharpest decrease in production, at 20.2 Mt, was in Russia because of drought. World supply decreased by 4.9 Mt to 844.9 Mt as higher carry in stocks offset most of the decrease in production. World use is expected to increase by 10.5 Mt to 663 Mt with growth in both the food and feed markets."

http://www.agr.gc...11-03-18

"If we add another degree to that there is no doubt that some locations would suffer but Canada and Russia would have better yields and more than make up the difference." - MR166
Vendicar_Decarian
0.4 / 5 (38) Mar 07, 2012
Lies. Lies. Lies. Lies.

Parker Tard has nothing else left.

"Everyone he suggested I found a paper proving otherwise." - ParkerTard

Vendicar_Decarian
0.4 / 5 (38) Mar 07, 2012
The GRACE satellites continue to measure the change in gravity around the Greenland ice sheet. Here is the latest data showing the record amount of ice loss Greenland experienced in the 2010 summer.

http://www.skepti...2010.gif

http://www.skepti...loss.gif
Vendicar_Decarian
0.4 / 5 (38) Mar 07, 2012
Astonishing, and here I thought that glaciers just popped into existence fully formed and at their greatest extent and didn't grow from mountainsides and down into valleys.

"The presence of old growth forest during those dates indicates that Glaciar Jorge Montt was upvalley" - Parker Tard
NotParker
1.7 / 5 (17) Mar 07, 2012
"The presence of old growth forest during those dates indicates that Glaciar Jorge Montt was upvalley"


The MWP and LIA were both global events. For the referenced gkacier, the MWP was warmer than today.

When VD states the MWP and LIA were regional, he really means every region on the planet had a MWP and LIA.

And the MWP was warmer than today.
Vendicar_Decarian
0.4 / 5 (38) Mar 07, 2012
Sorry Tard Boy. They were largely regional.

Your denialist delusion does not mesh with the historical record.

"The MWP and LIA were both global events." - ParkerTard
Vendicar_Decarian
0.4 / 5 (38) Mar 07, 2012
Lie

"And the MWP was warmer than today." - Parker Tard

http://www.global...ison_png

And temperatures are warmer now than they were in 2004, when the above graph ends. Now about 0.7'C above the historical norm.

Parker Tard is a congenital liar.
Vendicar_Decarian
0.3 / 5 (37) Mar 07, 2012
Denialist Richard Lindzen caught lying yet again.

Paid by the Libertarian CATO Institute and Caught read handed committing scientific Fraud.

http://www.realcl...lindzen/

Lindzen receives funding from the Libertarian propaganda organization calling itself the CATO Institute. CATO operates in an analogous manner to the Heritage Foundation and has many of the same despicable corporate funders.

I have never encountered a Libertarian who wasn't a congenital and perpetual liar. Lindzen is no exception to that rule.
SteveS
5 / 5 (2) Mar 07, 2012
The current position of the glacier indicates it was WARMER during the MWP (the period before the LIA), otherwise how could trees of that age have grown there.


The glacier is still retreating which indicates that it is warmer now than at the previous minimum extent.

With regard to the medieval period (5th to the 16th century) nowhere had a constant climate. The warmest period in Patagonia was at the beginning of the 15th century, long after the peak temperature in Greenland at the start of the 11th century.

ftp://131.247.136...1JQS.pdf

http://www.geo.um...993b.pdf

There was not a global medieval warm period

http://www.grida..../070.htm

NotParker
1.9 / 5 (14) Mar 07, 2012
The glacier is still retreating which indicates that it is warmer now than at the previous minimum extent.


It retreated further in the past. If the furthest retreat indicates temperature then it was warmer in the past.

Where do you claim there was no LIA and no MWP?
Vendicar_Decarian
0.4 / 5 (38) Mar 07, 2012
About your glacier.

"In December 2011, a new study was published. "The study was presented by glaciologist and CECs researcher Andrés Rivera, who focused his investigation on changes in the glacier between February 2010 and January 2011. Using a series of 1,445 photos taken throughout this period, scientists found that the glacier shrank roughly 82 feet each day, receding more than half a mile in the course of the year."

"If the furthest retreat indicates temperature then it was warmer in the past." - ParkerTard

While the current retreat is known to be caused by heating, retreats can be caused by both heating or a lack of snowfall due to changes in wind currents, dryer air overflowing the mountain, etc.

Vendicar_Decarian
0.4 / 5 (38) Mar 07, 2012
In addition, at the end of the last glacial period - roughly 12,000 years ago - the earth was roughly the same temperature it is today. This is a result of the out-gassing of CO2 from the ocean.

Temperatures have been generally declining from that period until industrialization and in 150 years have increased by the same amount than they had declined over the previous 12,000 years.

Currently over 97% of all glaciers are receding.
NotParker
1.8 / 5 (16) Mar 08, 2012
"All Wheat


"The USDA projected that domestic wheat supplies will total 957 million bushels at the end of 2012-2013, 13% more than in 2011-2012, while the EU predicted ending stocks will rise 40% to 15 million tons."

http://online.wsj...news_wsj

VD ... an expert at being wrong.
NotParker
1.5 / 5 (15) Mar 08, 2012
Sea Ice!!!!!!


http://arctic-roo..._ext.png

Well into the grey! Almost at the dotted blue line.
NotParker
1.5 / 5 (15) Mar 08, 2012
Temperatures have been generally declining from that period until


No. The Holocene Optimum was warmer than today.

As was the Minoan, Roman and MWP peaks all visible on the ice core proxy graphs.
rubberman
2 / 5 (8) Mar 08, 2012

"The presence of old growth forest during those dates indicates that Glaciar Jorge Montt was upvalley of its present position before the commonly recognized Little Ice Age (LIA) period in Patagonia."

Translation for VD followers:

The current position of the glacier indicates it was WARMER during the MWP (the period before the LIA), otherwise how could trees of that age have grown there.


That would only be if the glacier has reached the extent of it's retreat...it hasn't. As far as your wheat, MR166's comment was about Canada and Russia, not the US. Not to mention, your attempting to argue using projected numbers, not recorded ones.
MR166
1.8 / 5 (15) Mar 08, 2012
Russia did have a bad harvest due to the oppressive heat this summer and will have a bad Spring harvest due to the excessive snow and cold. That is what is known as weather. Unless accompanied by drought, 1 degree of warming would help northern crop production whereas 1 degree of cooling would delay planting to the point of crop failure due to a shortened growing season. Don't try to say that 1 degree of heating HAS to create droughts in the northern latitudes since there is no real proof of that other than perhaps some computer climate models created by Chicken Little under some government sponsorship where the outcome was predetermined.

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