Hackers intercept FBI, Scotland Yard call (Update)

Feb 03, 2012 By RAPHAEL SATTER , Associated Press
MacWorld attendees look at a MacBook Pro in 2009. Hacker group Anonymous, in an embarrassment for law enforcement, released a recording of a conference call between the FBI and Scotland Yard discussing operations against the hacking collective.

(AP) -- Trading jokes and swapping leads, investigators from the FBI and Scotland Yard spent the conference call strategizing about how to bring down the hacking collective known as Anonymous, responsible for a string of embarrassing attacks across the Internet.

Unfortunately for the cyber sleuths, the hackers were in on the call too - and now so is the rest of the world.

Anonymous published the roughly 15-minute-long recording of the call on the Internet on Friday, gloating in a Twitter message that "the FBI might be curious how we're able to continuously read their internal comms for some time now."

The humiliating coup exposed a vulnerability that might have had more serious consequences had someone else been listening in on the line.

"A law enforcement agency using unencrypted, unsecure communications is a major fumble," said Marcus Carey, who spent years securing communications for the U.S. National Security Agency before joining security-risk assessment firm Rapid7.

"What if this event was talking about some terrorist plot to blow up something and 'they' were listening in? It could've been much worse if it was related to an al-Qaida plot or something ... So this is a lesson learned."

The leak was one of a slew of Anonymous hacks that hit websites across the United States Friday, including in Boston, where the police site was defaced, and in Salt Lake City, where officials said that personal information of confidential informants and tipsters had been compromised.

Anonymous also claimed credit for defacing the Greek Justice Ministry's website and stealing a mountain of data from the Virginia-based law firm that defended a U.S. Marine recently convicted for his role in the bloody 2005 raid in Iraq that became known as the Haditha massacre.

The hackers' successful attempt to spy on the very people charged with tracking them down remained the most dramatic coup of the day, with sensitive police conversations broadcast across the world.

The FBI said the communication "was intended for law enforcement officers only and was illegally obtained," but added that no FBI systems were breached. It said that "a criminal investigation is under way to identify and hold accountable those responsible."

A law enforcement official, speaking on condition of anonymity because the matter is under investigation, told The Associated Press that authorities were looking at the possibility the message was intercepted from the private email account of one of the dozens of invited participants - who hailed from the U.K., Ireland, Germany, France, the Netherlands and Sweden.

Anonymous published just such an email Friday, complete with the date, time and password needed to access the call.

Graham Cluley, an expert with data security company Sophos, said that anyone with that information could have "rung in and silently listened to the call just like Anonymous did."

In Paris, a French police official who was briefed on the interception said it could prompt international law enforcement bodies to be more circumspect about sharing information in conference calls. He spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to speak on the record.

Scotland Yard said there was no immediate evidence their operations were compromised.

Amid jokes about a teenage hacking suspect (who one officer describes as "a bit of an idiot") and lighthearted banter about McDonald's, the investigators on the call discussed whether to delay the arrest of two hacking suspects to give the FBI more time to pursue its side of the investigation.

Updates were given on the status of inquiries stretching from Los Angeles and Baltimore to England and Ireland, with one member of Scotland Yard's central e-crime unit telling the FBI that British police had identified a 15-year-old with possible connections to a recent breach at U.S. videogame company Valve Corp.

"Yeah that's fantastic," an FBI official said in response. "We actually do have a pending investigation looking into that compromise."

An email to the FBI official leading the call was not immediately returned Friday, while the e-crime investigator referred questions to Scotland Yard's press office. The press office confirmed it had someone on the call but said it would have no further comment.

Most sensitive appears to be discussion of what legal strategy to pursue in the cases of Ryan Cleary and Jake Davis, two British suspects linked to Anonymous. The U.K. police official on the call said prosecutors were secretly going to court to delay procedures in order to give the FBI more time pursue a related case.

When the FBI official thanked his U.K. counterpart for the favor, the Briton said cheerily: "We're here to help!"

Karen Todner, a lawyer for Cleary, said the recording could be "incredibly sensitive" and warned that such data breaches had the potential to derail the police investigation.

"If they haven't secured their email it could potentially prejudice the investigation," she told the AP.

Anonymous, an amorphous collection of Internet enthusiasts, pranksters and activists, has increasingly focused its attention on law enforcement agencies in general and the FBI in particular.

The hackers' targets have included the Church of Scientology, the music industry and financial companies such as Visa and MasterCard. It has recently expanded to include government, police and military targets.

Dozens of suspected members and supporters have been arrested across the world.

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TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (11) Feb 03, 2012
Interestingly the ones who benefit most from assaults like this are those who have the resources to learn and adjust. Defenses are useless unless tested by a genuine and determined foe. And in an era of breathtaking technological advancement such as the present, defenses must be constantly tested and improved if they can be depended on at all.

A paradox. Enemies become your greatest Asset if they can be Controlled so as not to critically damage the infrastructure. The best Way of doing this is to create them yourself. That is, create a framework and a cause which will attract the most talented and contentious, and apply them in Directed and Controlled ways. This will both harden defenses and identify earnest opponents, who can then be dealt with (culled). Win-win.

This is why for instance the Taliban was created. All Players in the region benefit greatly from the continuous removal of troublemakers. An old Formula.

The very best enemies are the ones you create yourself.
antialias_physorg
4 / 5 (1) Feb 03, 2012
Though to be fair: The FBI and Scotland Yard would rather have their own tiger teams be 'successfull' than Anonymous.

The FBI should probably call in the NSAs "Red Cell" to investigate. But seeing as the different branches of the spy/enforcement/intelligence establishment aren't on speaking terms that probably won't happen.
Jotaf
4.7 / 5 (13) Feb 03, 2012
If only they pursued white-collar criminals as fiercely as they do these pimple-faced teenagers...

(Just pointing out the hypocrisy; I'm sure Anonymous has hackers talented enough to cause more serious mayhem, but they refrain from doing so and instead choose to attack targets they feel are morally acceptable.)
tadchem
2.5 / 5 (8) Feb 03, 2012
The information has been leaked. The *ENTIRE* recording of the call was published to the Internet, but "no FBI systems were compromised" and Scotland Yard said that their operations had not been compromised.
Somebody's in denial, but don't expect them to admit as much.
TrinityComplex
5 / 5 (1) Feb 03, 2012
Tad, remember that the email with dial-in information was sent to several agencies. The phone system could have remained uncompromised, as could the email systems of both Scotland Yard and the FBI. Most likely Anonymous picked up the email, which was apparently unencrypted, and dialed in just like anyone would. Hook up some recording equipement to the phone, hit the mute button, and you have a sensitive phone call to publish.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (6) Feb 03, 2012
Though to be fair: The FBI and Scotland Yard would rather have their own tiger teams be 'successfull' than Anonymous.
2 sides, 1 coin. Look at how beneficial the mafia has been. How do you think its possible for "an amorphous collection of Internet enthusiasts, pranksters and activists" to get away with such mischief unbeknownst to the NSA, CIA, Mossad, etc plus all those Agencies youve never heard of and will never hear of?

Its not. Anonymous is doing the Job it was Created to do.
antialias_physorg
4.5 / 5 (8) Feb 03, 2012
Erm. Anonymous isn't an organization that was 'created' by anyone.

But the thread on conspiracy theories is still out there somewhere. Maybe you should check it out?
NotAsleep
3.3 / 5 (3) Feb 03, 2012
The US DoD is frighteningly aware of how unprepared they are for cyber warfare and cyber espionage and I can't imagine that the FBI, CIA or NSA have provided much help in that arena. They're still focused on the neanderthal spy with the dark suit and sunglasses that steals paper documents from a safe....

Technology evolves much faster than these dinosaur organizations can adapt to. I'm somewhat surprised that they used a simple password-protected teleconference to discuss operations against hackers considering encrypted telephone lines are relatively commonplace in government agencies these days. Very sloppy on their part
SmaryJerry
3.5 / 5 (4) Feb 03, 2012
Erm. Anonymous isn't an organization that was 'created' by anyone.

But the thread on conspiracy theories is still out there somewhere. Maybe you should check it out?


Actually anonymous was created by the users of the website 4chan which basically is a website that jokes and hates on just about anything. The reason the group is called anonymous is because the users post to the forum threads all signed as anonymous. Now the same just happens but they post to a couple of different sites that are specificially devoted to hacking rather than joking.
antialias_physorg
4.5 / 5 (4) Feb 03, 2012
Actually anonymous was created by the users of the website 4chan


Specifically it originated on /b/ I think.
Turritopsis
4 / 5 (8) Feb 03, 2012
investigators from the FBI and Scotland Yard spent the conference call strategizing about how to bring down the hacking collective known as Anonymous


That's simple. Anonymous strikes against injustice stemming from oppressive regimes.

Stop the oppression, quit trying to control human beings as if they're animals.

Instate full governmental transparency and cut the lying.

Quit using people as tools for profit, set a payscale based upon how hard a person works (regardless of mental capacity (genius or mentally challenged).

Governments - stop lying to and exploiting your citizens.

Corporations - quit profiteering practices. The boss deserves as much money to live off of as does his lowest level employee.

Treat human beings with kindness and respect and do everything in your power to take care of one another.

Anonymous is just a group that's fed up with the way of the world.

Make the world a better place and anonymous will disband.
Turritopsis
3.9 / 5 (13) Feb 03, 2012
The problem is not with the people.

The problem is with the power hungry ruler wanna be types. They want to control everything and everyone.

Anonymous is wise to them.

Anonymous is working for you, the people.

Their interest is your freedom.

They are activists.

They are acting against the puppeteers, their agenda is to free you from these tyrannical power hungry maniacs.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.6 / 5 (7) Feb 03, 2012
Erm. Anonymous isn't an organization that was 'created' by anyone.
Erm? How would YOU know?
The US DoD is frighteningly aware of how unprepared they are
And how would YOU know? How would you know if creating a group like anonymous wasn't the very best way of forcing people and groups to prepare themselves? How else would you combat complacency?
Anonymous is working for you, the people.
And how would YOU know? Even if you were participating in their low orbit shitbomb campaigns, how would you know who creates your software and who tells you how to use it?

ALL of war is Deception. Peace is only the preparation for war. Therefore, all of peace is Deception. Rudimentary word calcs. Losing is never an option.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (3) Feb 03, 2012
And how would YOU know? How would you know if creating a group like anonymous wasn't the very best way of forcing people and groups to prepare themselves?

Sooo...creating a group that makes those who are supposed to fight it look like a bunch of idiots makes sense exactly...how again?
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (4) Feb 03, 2012
Quit using people as tools for profit, set a payscale based upon how hard a person works (regardless of mental capacity (genius or mentally challenged).

Governments - stop lying to and exploiting your citizens.

Corporations - quit profiteering practices. The boss deserves as much money to live off of as does his lowest level employee.

Treat human beings with kindness and respect and do everything in your power to take care of one another.
You sound so... Empowered. As if you are sending a message of some sort.
They are activists.
You bet. And the very same sorts of activists are being culled wholesale in Egypt and Syria. Domestication is a dirty Business but Somebody's gotta do it. Or else the herd would drive itself over a cliff. Maybe that's what happened to the mastodons?
But the thread on conspiracy theories is still out there somewhere.
Haha you are naive. Conspire is what humans DO. It is called cooperation. The tribal dynamic. We do little else.
Turritopsis
1 / 5 (1) Feb 03, 2012
Activism saved the Egyptian people from Mubarak's regime.

He was quite the "domesticator".
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (5) Feb 03, 2012
like a bunch of idiots makes sense exactly...how again
In order to motivate people you've got to elicit the proper emotions. Alexander left his wounded behind on his way to Issus. The persians got to them, mutilated them, and sent them on to the Macedonians. This ensured a very thorough rout and butchery in the coming battle, where only 50k of Alexanders men could slaughter 1M hapless, untrained, ill-equipped Persian adolescents.

Alexander and Darius were on the same Side you see. This very same thing happened months later at gaugamela to even greater effect. The free world was thus United according to Plan.

You think the Germans wasted all that effort firing 5000 V1 and V2 bombs to kill 5000 Brits?? To break their spirit perhaps? Come on. It royally pissed them off as it was supposed to. Germans were no longer the only protection from the soviets. Enemies were CREATED with atrocity. As usual.

THIS is how wars and other Engagements are Machinated. For the Greater Good.
Turritopsis
4 / 5 (4) Feb 03, 2012
The people in power don't want you to know this. The power to change resides in us all. There is power in numbers. They do everything they can to deceive you, to make you feel that you're the only one that feels there is injustice in the world. This is a lie. You are not alone. You are strong together.

Do not let them deceive you. Their goal is to divide you and conquer. They know they can't take you all on together as one.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (6) Feb 03, 2012
Activism saved the Egyptian people from Mubarak's regime.
Except for all the hotheads who ran off to join the resistance (or see a soccer game) who are DEAD now.

It's not over. Not by a long shot. Religionist-mandated overgrowth has caused extreme population pressure throughout the region, just as it did in Eurasia in the 19th century. We see the results of it every day - multitudes of idle young hotheads surging through the streets, demanding to fight because they literally have nothing better to do. 'Children of our youth/quiverfull as the bible describes them. Cannon fodder.

Meanwhile defenses are being shored up. Defense only gives one adequate time to prepare the proper Offense you know. Angriff ist die beste Verteidigung.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (5) Feb 03, 2012
The people in power don't want you to know this. The power to change resides in us all.
People don't LIKE change. They only change when they HAVE to. Like GM in the 60s. Jap cars are the only reason Detroit changed. Which is why it was orchestrated.
There is power in numbers.
Wars could not be fought without numbers.
They do everything they can to deceive you
Indeed They do. That is Their Job and they have gotten -very- good at it. How do you know you're not thoroughly deceived at the moment?
to make you feel that you're the only one that feels there is injustice in the world. This is a lie. You are not alone. You are strong together.
Snore. 'an the Times they are a'changin.'
'Meet the new Boss. Same as the old Boss.'
Green_Dragon
5 / 5 (1) Feb 03, 2012
Most likely Anonymous picked up the email, which was apparently unencrypted, and dialed in just like anyone would.

Having unencrypted emails containing sensitive data leave your organization is a security compromise, the human was the compromise. Also, why didn't they have a system in place for tracking who is listening in on the call and how many should be listening in? I wouldn't call them dinosaur organizations btw they're probably paying people with similar skills loads of money to make themselves secure...if its one thing these kinds of organizations know how to do its stay in power, one way or another..
Vienna
5 / 5 (2) Feb 04, 2012
Whoever had the bright idea to save money, save time, and I will bet, use a third-party service provider to make this call ought to be shown his or her walking papers. And the incredible idea to arrange a phone call to discuss anti-hacking strategies by sending the log-in information via a simple email is equally daft.

The old "weakest link of the chain" defeats the strongest part of the chain truism illustrated again.
Vienna
1 / 5 (4) Feb 04, 2012
For those dimwits here extolling the virtues of anonymous hackers as benevolent, morally minded knights in shining armor battling for YOUR personal liberties, get a GRIP! Hackers are no more concerned for your little precious freedoms and liberties as your technologically equipped angels than the criminal who mugs you in an alley.

This is their personal Game, better than Xbox. It is a power trip and nothing more!

The REASON they have seemed to practice "restraint" (although if it was your credit card and personal information and emails posted it would seem considerably less "moral") is FEAR of CONSEQUENCES. Like it or not, the only thing, the only counterforce to hackers like anonymous, the only bulwark that keeps these guys "partially" in check, so to speak, is that there is a RISK involved.

That risk of losing their own freedoms due to international law enforcement closing in is the ONLY deterrent we have to them mobbing the internet looting and burning everything in their path.
antialias_physorg
4.3 / 5 (8) Feb 04, 2012
For those dimwits here extolling the virtues of anonymous hackers as benevolent, morally minded knights in shining armor

They're pranksters. Young and idealistic. Not Robin Hood, but also not ego-trip driven, power-mad terrorists. It#s also an extremly heterogeneous group.

Learn to think in more than black and white.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (6) Feb 04, 2012
They're pranksters. Young and idealistic. Not Robin Hood, but also not ego-trip driven, power-mad terrorists. It#s also an extremly heterogeneous group.
You are naive in multiple ways. Did you see their hero in the movie 'V'? He blew up parliament.

And again how would YOU know who they are and what their motivations are? Have you sat in on one of their meetings down at the hofbrauhaus? You are guessing based completely on what you see in the news and what people TELL you.

Meanwhile anonymous is doing some very big and potentially very dangerous things. People are becoming motivated indeed.

People are extremely easy to dupe. Including you. And me. We only need to be told what we WANT to hear.
antialias_physorg
3.3 / 5 (3) Feb 04, 2012
It's what they do and how they do it.

DDoS attacks on websites using the LOIC: That's not 'hacking'. That's defacing the poster someone puts up.

Going after the Westboro Baptist Church website. Live. On TV. (It's hilarious)
http://www.youtub...wSjor4hM

Going after Scientology website

Going after the websites of Paypal and Visa after they shafted Assange

The list goes on and on..

These aren't actions that a group takes to take down governments or be 'terrorists'.

Meanwhile anonymous is doing some very big and potentially very dangerous things.

You are guessing based completely on what you see in the news and what people TELL you.

And you're guessing based on what people don't tell you.

Now who is more of a conspiracy freak? the one going on evidence or the one claimimng that stuff is hidden? If you have evidence: show it. Otherwise don your tinfoil hat.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (1) Feb 04, 2012
Have you sat in on one of their meetings down at the hofbrauhaus?

You know - I actually might have. Back when I did my studies in Karlsruhe (which was in the 90s) I had quite a few parties at which CS students were present. Some of which were affiliated with the CCC (Chaos Computer Club), which in turn nowadays has a loose affiliations with Anonymous.

If these guys are anything to go by then: yes. They're pranksters. They're very passionate about net neutrality and freedom of information but in now way political (radical or otherwise).
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (4) Feb 04, 2012
These aren't actions that a group takes to take down governments or be 'terrorists'.
The interweb must be tested and fortified on many levels. Attacking banks and security websites so that they learn to protect themselves can be every bit as important as govt agencies. Which anonymous HAS attacked - see article.
If you have evidence: show it. Otherwise don your tinfoil hat.
You first. I have the same evidence you do only I give it a common theme and indicate the obvious benefits of it. You only parrot the old 'greed and Spass' nonsense. The Results, which are Beneficial and absolutely Necessary, are my evidence.
They're pranksters. They're very passionate...
And young and gullible. And thus easy to manipulate. The govt was complicit in the anti-Vietnam riots. Fact. The US needed a credible reason to leave VN after it's Mission there was complete. What better way to demonstrate how good democracy was, than to have the people rise up and demand that the war be ended?
Turritopsis
3 / 5 (4) Feb 04, 2012
The problem is people can't rise up to stand against something they don't know is there. There is a lack of transparency at the top government levels (and top corporate levels for that matter). Citizens and employees are kept in the dark.

They know problems exist because they live them. They don't know where they stem from because they're kept top secret.

Anonymous may appear to be pranksters (and some probably are), but the majority is adamant in lifting the veil and exposing the secrets which trickle down and affect everyone.
antialias_physorg
3.7 / 5 (3) Feb 04, 2012
You first. I have the same evidence you do only I give it a common theme

WHAT common theme?
What common theme is there in going after the Westboro Baptist church, Scientology, HBGary, Habbo Hotel (an online game), the IFPI (an INTERNATIONAL organization), the MPAA, and Paypal?

Are you suggesting the US is run by the Westboro Baptist church and Habbo Hotel?

You're crazy.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (4) Feb 04, 2012
'Problems' in the world are caused primarily by advancing technology and the need to adapt to it. New tech enables more people to live longer. Potentially dangerous and disruptive tech has to be exploited and incorporated into civilization in controlled fashion so as not to create critical damage.

This forces the need for change. It FORCES Those in Power to instigate the social changes necessary to enable these things. These Instigations often entail war and revolution, in order to destroy those obsolete cultures which would resist this change.

An obvious example is the ONE BILLION abortions which have occurred in the last 100 years, mostly in soviet and chinese communist eurasia. The continuing peace and stability in these regions can be attributed solely to the world wars and the 'communist' martial law which followed, which destroyed all the medieval cultures which would have prevented this great tech advancement.

There is a much Bigger Picture to see. The future is Planned.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (5) Feb 04, 2012
WHAT common theme?
What common theme is there in going after the Westboro Baptist church, Scientology, HBGary, Habbo Hotel (an online game), the IFPI (an INTERNATIONAL organization), the MPAA, and Paypal?

Are you suggesting the US is run by the Westboro Baptist church and Habbo Hotel?
Use your brain. These attacks prompt a far larger number of similar organizations to want to protect themselves. This creates the demand for engineers to fix software and create better. This would NOT happen otherwise. Why bother? Why waste time and money?

Clever pranksters and earnest chinese hackers both enable a stronger, more resilient digital infrastructure. In a similar fashion spam, porn, and adware increased the capacity of the system exponentially. This was also absolutely Necessary.

Greed, prurience, and malicious fun are great motivators for very clever malcreants. This makes very clever things occur to them which might not occur to jaded IT people and bored software designers.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (4) Feb 04, 2012
This is only Competition, the primary motivator of change, of evolution. It is a Tool, like greed or prurience. These are not ends, as you are so easily led to believe; they are rather Means to favorable ends.
kochevnik
2 / 5 (7) Feb 04, 2012
Did you see their hero in the movie 'V'? He blew up parliament.
Guy Fawkes was a typical catholic Jesuit counterreformationist. Terrorism, fascism, religion, and conservatism. Different names: Same thing.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (5) Feb 04, 2012
Did you see their hero in the movie 'V'? He blew up parliament.
Guy Fawkes was a typical catholic Jesuit counterreformationist. Terrorism, fascism, religion, and conservatism. Different names: Same thing.
Guess you didnt see the movie?
http://www.youtub...vbfogeSI

He blew up parliament.
kochevnik
1 / 5 (6) Feb 04, 2012
Guy Fawkes was a typical catholic Jesuit counterreformationist. Terrorism, fascism, religion, and conservatism. Different names: Same thing.
Guess you didnt see the movie?http://www.youtub...bfogeSI. He blew up parliament.
Yes the Vatican's Rothschild Film Funding company made this self-indulgent fascist flick after staging 7/7 with the help of MI5 at Kingsgate. It's the kind of in-your-face slap they like to hint to anyone in the know. Of course at the moment they are frustrated with English Parliament who will not get on with the business of killing all Muslims and Jews because, well, Saudi Arabia bailed out the English economy after it was trashed by catholic fascists all around in WWII. So the bankers keep it at a low level blowing up trains and buses and blaming it on Brazilians who are somehow token pawns for Islamic terrorists. Rather badly played all around really, but it is enough for the mob.
antialias_physorg
3.7 / 5 (3) Feb 04, 2012
This creates the demand for engineers to fix software and create better. This would NOT happen otherwise. Why bother? Why waste time and money?

You mean as opposed to people like the ones who designed STUXNET, the (probably) Chinese espionage going on of all companies, the ongoing cyberwarfare against Lithuania and the Ukraine, ....

Yeah. Sure. Let's NOT invest in making software better. Let them have it all.

There's no need for a low impact group like Anonymous to stoke the fires. Again: What they do is not hacking/breaking/cracking. It's defacing the posters (websites) someone puts up. That's not the same. It's not even in the same league.
A few days ago they took on the american nazi website for chrissakes.

If Anonymous were a tool by software companies or the government, then they are particularly ineffective (and they certainly would be giving these guys a worse image).

Nah. Your 'theory' has more holes than quantum foam.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.1 / 5 (7) Feb 04, 2012
I see you are not very familiar with the width and breadth of their curriculum vitae.
http://en.wikiped...nonymous

-They have attacked numerous govts, corporations, law firms, financial institutions, and individuals around the world using varied means. They have participated in revolutions and elections. Their ddos attacks have cost millions of dollars. They have stolen and posted personal info of innocent people.

You seem to think that protecting entities such as this from these sorts of attacks is unimportant? We can bet that the fbi and Scotland yard will begin encrypting their communications, and will learn how to perhaps catch perps and troublemakers.

Could any of these vulnerabilities have been exploited to cause much more significant damage and/or loss of life, especially in time of war? YOU BET. good thing they happened the way they did eh?
kochevnik
1 / 5 (5) Feb 04, 2012
-They have attacked numerous govts, corporations, law firms, financial institutions, and individuals around the world using varied means.
Maybe they're just trying to catch up with Israel and China?
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.7 / 5 (6) Feb 04, 2012
Yeah. Sure. Let's NOT invest in making software better. Let them have it all.
Tgere is no way to know what your vulnerabilities are until your defenses are tested by assault from a genuine foe. NO WAY. as the digital infrastructure begins to assume more complete and autonomous control over pretty much EVERYTHING, it needs to be continuously tested and upgraded.

We can't have food being tainted remotely or mass transit programs being corrupted by religious zealots. You saw the next gen US drones which will be largely autonomous? Israel is planning littoral patrol craft with this capability. The US is exploring an unmanned destroyer. Commercial planes will fly themselves. Computers will run supermarkets tracking inventory and ordering shipments. Fully robotic factories building robots, ordering parts, scheduling deliveries, paying bills, redesigning their product. Etc.

The systems which run these things NEEDS to undergo rigorous testing at EVERY level. Which is what we see.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (5) Feb 04, 2012
-They have attacked numerous govts, corporations, law firms, financial institutions, and individuals around the world using varied means.
Maybe they're just trying to catch up with Israel and China?
There are no sides, no enemies left in the world. Or rather, there are Leaders and there are the people whom they lead, who are their sworn enemies. The people have always been the enemies of rulers everywhere.

A small Group faced this obvious Truth long ago and began to make war on the people. This is easy: all you do is divide them up and give them cause to fight one another. This conflict can be Engineered and Controlled, and most importantly the results of it Predetermined. Thus it can be wildly creative and unimaginably Beneficial.

This meme was an easy sell to early rulers around the world. A new Tribe soon emerged, sworn to defend Their world against the vast multitudes which would consume it and themselves.

An Empire was created.
Turritopsis
3.4 / 5 (5) Feb 04, 2012
You are messed up Otto.

Everything you say in your response to Kochevnik is true.

How can you condone this behaviour?

Would you be happy if I convinced you that your best friend is trying to kill you Otto? You'd probably preemptively strike and kill the person you like the most.

How are you ok with this type of deception?

You really are messed up.
Anda
3 / 5 (3) Feb 05, 2012
"This is why for instance the Taliban was created. All Players in the region benefit greatly from the continuous removal of troublemakers. An old Formula."

You are an ignorant idiot ghost, otto
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (5) Feb 05, 2012
Would you be happy if I convinced you that your best friend is trying to kill you Otto? You'd probably preemptively strike and kill the person you like the most.
Strange analogy... If you knew that your best friend was going to kill you then he wouldn't be your friend would he?

With the advent of communal agriculture came meticulous record-keeping of how much food was being produced and of who was allotted what. Over the course of a few generations it was clear to rulers what they had suspected all along - populations grow faster than the food supply.

This meant that no matter how benevolent rulers were, sooner or later the people would be suffering and they would blame their misery on whoever was in charge. The sumerians lamented this. Zeus decided to 'empty the world' by causing the trojan war, because the people were ruining it.

Leaders are not your friends, no matter who They select to govern you. They are your Shepherds. You are at best a necessary evil to Them.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (5) Feb 05, 2012
"This is why for instance the Taliban was created. All Players in the region benefit greatly from the continuous removal of troublemakers. An old Formula."

You are an ignorant idiot ghost, otto
"KABUL Taliban fighters in Afghanistan have been enraged by a video which shows U.S. marines urinating on three corpses, believed to be insurgents, and some say they do not understand their leaderships relatively measured response to the tape.

"News of the clip spread fast across Afghanistan, even though only a minority of people have electricity and the internet is restricted to a tiny urban elite."

-See how EASY it is to get people to fight? Recent reports indicate the Taliban is running short of recruits, and we have a nice news story here which seems tailor-made to increase enlistment of exactly the type of idle young hotheads that Leaders want to remove from populations in order to gradually pacify them.

'The meek shall inherit the earth.' -A Promise and a Goal.
Jotaf
5 / 5 (4) Feb 05, 2012
Otto, there is no great conspiracy. There is no shadowy group nor any big plan.

The CIA, NSA, etc are just people like us, they're doing their jobs, and there's a whole lot of incompetence, like this article demonstrates. They're not like in the movies.

The people in power and billionaires, who meddle with lawmaking and make sure we can't all live in peace and get along, are just as dumb or as smart as anyone else. One day they're reading the news and call someone influential because they want to push this or that way.

There's no annual meeting of evil men, just clueless people with more power than they should. They can't predict the future and they sure can't fathom the full consequences of their actions.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.7 / 5 (6) Feb 05, 2012
Otto, there is no great conspiracy. There is no shadowy group nor any big plan.
Yah there is.
The CIA, NSA, etc are just people like us
Yah I know I have a cousin in the CIA. Everybody serves no matter which side you are on or who you work for. Win-win.
are just as dumb or as smart as anyone else.
Well they're obviously a little smarter which is why they are rich and powerful. They too Serve.
call someone influential because they want to push this or that way.
And if everybody rich and powerful were doing that don't you think things would collapse pretty quickly? You believe what you're told. So do they. They get where they are by following certain Rules. The bulk of them are as clueless to Who makes these Rules as you and I.

You think greed motivates these middlemen and you're right. Greed is a dependable Tool. But above a certain level there are People who know that wealth would be worthless if the system which gave it value, collapsed.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (5) Feb 05, 2012
Overall Stability which enables continued Progress, are the main Purpose of Empire. Stagnation means certain eventual extinction of what may be the only intelligent species in the universe. And of one enduring Tribe, an enochian Priesthood, the descendants of noah, the Inheritors of the Throne of David and Solomon, etc etc blahblah.

They OWN us the way Joseph and pharaoh ended up owning all of Egypt; by accepting the Inevitable and by Planning and Preparing for it.

It's a dirty Job but somebody has got to do it. Otherwise civilization would not have progressed much beyond the 2nd millennia bc. By that time much of the known world was already ruined.

You can see it on the map; a long swath of desolation from the gobi through afghanistan and the balkans, down the levant and across sub-Saharan Africa. No trees, topsoil gone, desertified, saltified, empty wasteland. This USED to be the fertile crescent.

The entire world would look like this if humans had been left undomesticated.
kochevnik
1.3 / 5 (7) Feb 05, 2012
Otto, there is no great conspiracy. There is no shadowy group nor any big plan.
Except for that little exhibition in 2001 where 80% of two skyscrapers, 500,000 tonnes, were converted into submicron dust in a very short time. In other words a group has sophisticated directed energy weapon, probably scalar, and they're able to put on shows worldwide blaming any group they wish to marginalize. I don't know if they have the "big plan" but now only a willfully ignorant retard can deny they have the weapon.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (5) Feb 05, 2012
And you can see also how this Grand Idea congealed, starting perhaps with Greece or maybe the fabled kingdom of Israel; how overall Order was established through conquest, and then how that Order dissolved into provinces and city-states sharing a common culture but constantly at war with one another.

Israel and judea fought each other, the punishment for denying gods wisdom. The greek city-states fought very congenial and orderly wars for hundreds of years which gave them the skills to defeat the persians. Alexander left his empire 'to the strongest', thereby ensuring unending conflict. Roman provinces fought constantly with other and with the legions.

Charlemagne conquered Europe only to have it dissolve into kingdoms and dukedoms, constantly fighting wars arranged for exclusively by his descendants. All related. A crime family had gained control of a continent. What could be more obvious than this?

Nothing has changed. They have only gotten better at it. We OWE Them.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (4) Feb 05, 2012
Otto, there is no great conspiracy. There is no shadowy group nor any big plan.
Except for that little exhibition in 2001 where 80% of two skyscrapers, 500,000 tonnes, were converted into submicron dust in a very short time. In other words a group has sophisticated directed energy weapon, probably scalar, and they're able to put on shows worldwide blaming any group they wish to marginalize.
Quite possibly but unnecessary to account for the destruction. This was merely pissing on corpses at a different Scale.

'No matter what the public sentiment, it can be quickly and thoroughly changed by events of sufficient Magnitude.' Such Events are well within the purview of Empire. You WILL get fooled again.
kochevnik
1.7 / 5 (6) Feb 05, 2012
Quite possibly but unnecessary to account for the destruction. This was merely pissing on corpses at a different Scale.
Oh the missing 80% WTC mass is critical. Had the 500,000 tonnes collapsed into the bathtub, the tub would have shattered. Being under the waterline, the Hudson would have entered the subway and flooded lower Manhattan. In fact a souvenir store and subway train in the bathtub, directly below the towers, were undamaged. Merchandise recovered was unscratched. Buildings undergoing controlled demolition leave a pile of rubble 20-25% of the original height. At ground zero the rubble was only 2.5 stories high, which is only 2% of the original height. A hundred autos spontaneously and simultaneously caught fire in the engine block up to a mile away. Over 1400 people JUMPED from the towers, which is not human behavior. It takes great effort to commit suicide. Bodies exploded in midair and only body parts rained down. Not normal.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (6) Feb 05, 2012
People were being roasted alive. You would have jumped to escape that. No matter. It is clear the buildings were DESIGNED to fall from impact by planes. Bldgs of that scale and in that sort of location are built to last indefinitely. The towers were built like walmarts. Steel joists could not be fireproofed and could be expected to sag from fuel fires. Drywall stairwell enclosures could be expected to blow away at impact. The towers were built to serve as plane targets.

The Effect of the attack was to justify the reoccupation and compartmentalization of the middle east. The potential for the reestablishment of the caliphate and a new Arab empire was the impetus. But the primary Reason, as always, was the Need for continued Control. Pakistan was given nukes in order to make western military reinvolvement in the region essential.

WTC was the Trigger, Planned decades in advancement. Heck, countries were configured after the fall of the ottoman empire, in anticipation of this.
neurogalactus
3.7 / 5 (3) Feb 05, 2012
It doesn't really matter if Anonymous were originally created by some govt agency. What matters is that now they are people of all sorts who share the common goal of civil disobedience to corrupt governments, and stand against the rule of big corporations. Regulations such as ACTA were conceived to attain 3 objectives:
1. control the design and manufacturing of material goods and software
2. monitor every activity on the internet and gather all personal info
3. restrict people's access to non-mainstream media and non-mainstream education

Now, when it comes to Otto's mindblowing theories... well, they're mindblowing by all means, yet they lack solid proof.
In real world, things are not as predictable as the powers that be would like. Therefore, they will never be able to extend full control over the world, no matter how much they try. Also, the idea that all warfare serves to the benefit of ALL HUMANITY is ridiculous at best!
Turritopsis
3 / 5 (5) Feb 05, 2012
Now, when it comes to Otto's mindblowing theories... well, they're mindblowing by all means, yet they lack solid proof.


Maybe not solid proof, but evidence for what he is saying is all around us.

Things are not as predictable as the powers that be would like. Therefore, they will never be able to extend full control over the world, no matter how much they try.


Come on now. They direct and dictate civilization. This is not a conspiracy theory, this is reality.

The take Otto has on reality is deluded but what he says is quite factual.

Where he is wrong is in his belief that shepherding is necessary for humanities survival and continual progression.

In fact, just the opposite is the case. If these tyrants were taken out of power civilization would flourish.

He doesn't understand that: the more people there are on Earth; the more food gets eaten; the more poop is released. Poop fertilizes the lands he believes a large population robs of its nutrients.
Turritopsis
3.7 / 5 (3) Feb 05, 2012
The problem shepherds have with large populations is that they are hard to account for and control.
Turritopsis
3 / 5 (4) Feb 05, 2012
Agriculture is sustainable even with a population of 7 trillion on earth when responsibly handled. Get more seeds plant them fertilize grow cultivate repeat.

The extra plants grown work to convert the extra co2 humans exhale into breathable oxygen.

A growing population is sustainable with the right measures taken.
kochevnik
1.7 / 5 (6) Feb 05, 2012
People were being roasted alive.
Yes, but not by fires. Their bodies were "obliterated." This is not normal in skydiving accidents. Fallers looked completely confused and their bodies disintegrated often PRIOR to impact. What accounts for this is the dustification process that broke the molecular bonds in their bodies as well as the towers. Their bodies had little structural integrity: "When they hit the pavement, their bodies were not so much broken as obliterated."
It is clear the buildings were DESIGNED to fall from impact by planes.
That contradicts what the architects of the towers stated. They said the buildings were built for MULTIPLE impacts from LARGER planes. Perhaps they are lying? No need to lie, though, with scalar weapon technology. The unreported category 3 hurricane off the NYC coast provided ample power to dissociate the buildings at the molecular level.
kochevnik
1.7 / 5 (6) Feb 05, 2012
Bldgs of that scale and in that sort of location are built to last indefinitely. The towers were built like walmarts. Steel joists could not be fireproofed and could be expected to sag from fuel fires. Drywall stairwell enclosures could be expected to blow away at impact. The towers were built to serve as plane targets.
The towers were robust but at the end of their life. Demolitions would have cost $7billion and not served the elite's agenda for eternal bankster-funded warfare. Granted the Bin Laden family advised where to add cutting charges prior to erection.
The problem shepherds have with large populations is that they are hard to account for and control.
The shepard's staff is not a tool historically. It is a weapon. One can control lions with it. The blood covering a carnivore face after consuming it's prey became the blood of chirst in christianity. In hieroglyphics it depicts control over the the ruler's subjects
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.1 / 5 (7) Feb 05, 2012
jIf these tyrants were taken out of power civilization would flourish.
Im speechless. No Im not. 1M years of tribal warfare with no progress. Suddenly civilizations erupt around the world within 1000 yrs of each other. A scant few millenia later we are capable of leaving this planet. This was not happenstance.

Unfettered humanity was RUINING the planet and extincting itself. Empire fixed it.
The shepard's staff is not a tool historically. It is a weapon. One can control lions with it.
"Thy rod [punishment] and thy staff [guidance] they comfort me." psalm 23

-Domesticated animals rarely try to escape even when they have the chance.
Poop fertilizes the lands he believes a large population robs of its nutrients.
It is illegal to use night soil/human waste as fertilizer. Besides entropy limits utility.
population of 7 trillion
7T gerbils perhaps. Food is not the problem; people are. Tropical apes in a temperate world who propagate far faster than their food supply.
PoppaJ
1.7 / 5 (3) Feb 06, 2012
Isn't it obvious. Its was a trap. Say goodbye to those that listened in.
Turritopsis
1 / 5 (1) Feb 06, 2012
Im speechless. No Im not. 1M years of tribal warfare with no progress. Suddenly civilizations erupt around the world within 1000 yrs of each other. A scant few millenia later we are capable of leaving this planet. This was not happenstance.


I see someone doesn't believe in the evolution of the human mind. Or is it that you believe that the shepherds caused the change in brain size?

Btw, you've evaded my other question as well:

Would you be happy if I [falsely] convinced you that your best friend is trying to kill you Otto? You'd probably preemptively strike and kill the person you like the most.

How are you ok with this type of deception?


That last line: "ok with...deception?" should have gave you a clue that in the hypothetical I lied about your friends intentions.

So please chime in whenever you like.
Turritopsis
1 / 5 (2) Feb 06, 2012
As Michio Kaku has said mankind is in a transitional state from a type zero civilization to a type 1 civilization.

I say that transition cannot take place until man is free of oppressors.
Turritopsis
1 / 5 (1) Feb 06, 2012
The evolution of the mind in my opinion is driven by information. We are living in the information age and mark my words: the evolution will be noticeable in every of the subsequent generations. Your children will be noticeably more advanced when intellect is in question. Their children will be another order of magnitude more advanced.

Evolution is not ALWAYS a slow process. There are triggers which cause changes. The more information the mind has to deal with the more it grows.

Kind of like, the more weight you lift the bigger your muscles get.
Turritopsis
1 / 5 (1) Feb 06, 2012
You could say that life is a byproduct of both nature (natural selection) and nurture (more correctly, environment).
Turritopsis
1 / 5 (1) Feb 06, 2012
To nurture is to subject to preselected conditions. The nurturer selects what environment to expose the subject to.
Turritopsis
1 / 5 (1) Feb 06, 2012
Evolution through nurture - epigenetics - it is becoming more and more evident that gene expression is carried over to the next generation (although new genetic code (DNA) is not written).

The collection of your experiences affect gene expression, this collective is carried over to offspring. (some genetic code is turned off, some is turned on. The code that is turned on is the code that is expressed.)

Your genetic expressions are inherited by your children. If you are expressing heightened need for higher cortex function your children inherit that expression.

Soft evolution is real.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (3) Feb 06, 2012
What matters is that now they are people of all sorts who share the common goal of civil disobedience to corrupt governments, and stand against the rule of big corporations.
They share the standard pat free-at-last stuff which jesus used to get millions killed. Nothing new under the sun. They are doing exactly what their Keepers are wanting them to do. And they are doing it happily, enthusiastically.
I say that transition cannot take place until man is free of oppressors.
And I say that the transition to the next Stage cannot take place until the Oppressors are free of man the insufferable ape.
I see someone doesn't believe in the evolution of the human mind. Or is it that you believe that the shepherds caused the change in brain size?
First off the mind doesnt exist. Our brains were driven to grow beyond all reason from competition with fellow tool users. Tribes which could cooperate and scheme more effectively would overrun the losers and impregnate the females.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (3) Feb 06, 2012
Tribal warfare drove the creation of these monstrosities in our heads.
http://rechten.el...RID2.pdf

The brain which happens to function reasonably well and for very long at all is rare indeed. But we can see many Mechanisms for distilling capability from the general populace; immigration, higher education, the temptation of various addictions, and of course war. They are effective in replacing the natural attrition which keeps other species healthy and sane.

These Mechanisms in their present forms did not arise by themselves but were Engineered and Refined. Humans are INDEED being bred. The most capable of us are encouraged to leave our incipient cultures and mate within these new groups.

This unfortunately leaves behind cultures which are increasingly prone to violence, superstition, and overgrowth; and also pickup trucks and tractor pulls. And also car bombings of funeral processions.
_nigmatic10
2.3 / 5 (3) Feb 06, 2012
Hackers are not malicious criminals, and if anything they're political activists in the cyber world. Perhaps if governments started treating them as such, they would have achieve a better result, or worse. Depending on the desired results versus common human rights.
kochevnik
1.8 / 5 (5) Feb 06, 2012
For those dimwits here extolling the virtues of anonymous hackers as benevolent, morally minded knights in shining armor battling for YOUR personal liberties, get a GRIP!
Hackers made most of the software you're using today. If you don't like them why don't you kill your Internet connection and start communicating by pen, paper, classified ads and community board postings?
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (3) Feb 06, 2012
Hackers are not malicious criminals, and if anything they're political activists in the cyber world.
The fbi and scotland yard were discussing a 15yo thrillseeker. What does he know of politics? Yeah I know youre going to say some crap about uncorrupted youth seeing clearly and blah. 15yo kids make the best cannon fodder. Adolescents made up most of the armies of history. They are the most easily led. Kmer rouge, the red guards, child soldiers in the Civil war in Sierra Leone, taliban (means 'student') -How many can you think of?
Turritopsis
2.3 / 5 (3) Feb 07, 2012
Ghost,

Humans aren't at the same evolutionary stage they were when tribal warfare was wreaking havoc across the lands.

I'm not proposing to cut world collaboration, tools of communication (and the ability to replicate them should they get destroyed) are in place today which can be used to resolve problems. There is always an alternative to war. Why not come together and build a space station. Integrate into their culture and turn those nuclear tools for destruction into tools of construction. We all know war is profitable as it builds an economy and raises total value of your currency.

But so does collaboration and construction.

War was supposed to be fun, exhilarating, an adrenaline rush. Today it is pure tactical destruction from above and below.

Using machines to fight is the biggest pussy move of all. Pistol. Assault rifle. Nuclear missile. Lives sitting on a button.

You got problems settle it with your hands.

Where is the honor in today's warfare?

Turritopsis
3 / 5 (2) Feb 07, 2012
Armies were constructed to protect and serve those wielding them, not to benefit humanity as a whole.

You can't simultaneously prepare for and prevent war. -AE

An inferior human being grabs a bigger gun than his enemies. There is honor in unarmed combat.

No honor in armed combat. Bravery yes, honor no.
Shelgeyr
1 / 5 (1) Feb 07, 2012
@Turritopsis said:
You can't simultaneously prepare for and prevent war. -AE


Another example of a genius talking outside his area of expertise. Einstein was wrong, and I hope it is obvious I don't mean that the way that phrase is normally used.

No honor in armed combat.


You are welcome to your incorrect opinion.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2 / 5 (4) Feb 08, 2012
Humans aren't at the same evolutionary stage they were when tribal warfare was wreaking havoc
Waaaaaaaa! You didnt read the paper I posted.
http://rechten.el...RID2.pdf

Humans are TRIBAL. What do you think nationalism is? What do you think the gangs in the cities are? What do you think fueled the slaughter in rwanda/burundi? What do you think the bible is all about, or any religion for that matter?
No honor in armed combat.
There is only honor in winning.
You can't simultaneously prepare for and prevent war.
You cannot PREVENT war. Overpopulation makes it inevitable. You can postpone it, but this will only make it worse. Or you can take the Initiative and Plan for it, Schedule it, Engineer it, Manage it, and Arrange for the best of possible outcomes.

The Only Way to ensure a favorable outcome in any war, is to command both sides. This is easy when you realize that the people are the enemy.
Turritopsis
3 / 5 (2) Feb 08, 2012
Yes people are tribal. Tribal does not mean evil. You're projecting your thwarted way on mankind as a whole.

When two tribes come together the result is not war. It is networking, learning, helping, mating, etc.

The problems arise when a thwarted leader comes to his tribe and says: "the neighbouring tribe is out to destroy us. I'm going to destroy them and take everything they posses, you're either with me or against me!"

People are not evil. Many are scared of sociopathic leaders and act against their morals when facing what they believe to be a self-preservative crisis.

Tribes are disillusioned by evil charismatic leaders, and follow blindly in order to protect themselves and their children from projected evil.
Turritopsis
1 / 5 (1) Feb 08, 2012
you can take the Initiative and Plan for it, Schedule it, Engineer it, Manage it, and Arrange for the best of possible outcomes.


Of course war is inevitable if you are going to start it.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (3) Feb 08, 2012
When two tribes come together the result is not war. It is networking, learning, helping, mating, etc
READ THE PAPER. Human tropical repro rate makes overgrowth inevitable. Tribes have been contending over resources for 1M years. Chimps and gorillas do it. Look up chimp warfare.
People are not evil.
When resources become scarce and your children begin to starve, you will do what you can to feed them. Primates have been banding together to secure resources forever. Human tech which eliminated natural attrition made this a million times worse. The result has been unremittant tribal war throughout our history. It continues today. READ THE PAPER.
Turritopsis
1 / 5 (1) Feb 09, 2012
No honor in armed combat.


You are welcome to your incorrect opinion.


I know that sounds insensitive as brave men and women have gone to fight to keep us safe, some to never come back again. We honor their bravery but their fighting conditions were not fair ones. Weaponry is used to kill. People aren't food. Their slaughter is not justified. Being slaughtered by the business end of a barrel is not an honorable fight to the end, especially not if it's in the back, or from anywhere you can't see it from. And that is how war is fought.

You can honor the bravery of soldiers but war needs to be turned into a more positive contest. One with the same stakes. Just handled differently. Decide the winner with a gladiator type sporting event. You can still spill blood. Allow the fight to the end to be honorable face to face combat. Human to human.

I apologize for the insensitivity as we have all been affected by war.

But there is a more honorable way.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (3) Feb 09, 2012
Decide the winner with a gladiator type sporting event. You can still spill blood.... Human to human.
You are naive. You think people will just agree to let their children starve because their home team lost? War is fought for survival. Losing means death and extinction for your family, your tribe, your way of life.

Guess you didnt see what happened in egypt when the home team won? Victory on the field was not enough. It never is.
http://news.yahoo...620.html

The emperor threw a party and Sun Tsu was there. The emperors concubines were acting the part of chess pieces on a large chessboard. 'If this game were a war, how would you go about winning it?' the emperor asked sun tsu. Sun tsu drew his sword, walked into the midst of the concubines and cut them all to pieces. 'This is how war is won.' replied sun tsu.

This is how humans fight wars. To win. Anything less is dishonorable.

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