New forms of torture leave 'invisible scars', say researchers

Dec 23, 2011 By Kerry Noble

Use of torture around the world has not diminished but the techniques used have grown more complex and sophisticated, according to new research from Queen Mary, University of London.

The study suggests that these emerging forms of torture, which include various types of rape, bestiality and witnessing violent acts, are experienced by people seeking asylum in the UK.

In many cases the techniques cause no visible effect but are responsible for a variety of serious problems. The researchers say that their findings are vital for understanding what many asylum seekers have endured and for ensuring the correct medical treatments are available.

The majority of countries signed a UN convention banning all forms of torture almost thirty years ago but the new research joins a body of evidence showing that the use of torture not only persists but is also widespread.

The researchers, led by Dr. Nasir Warfa, based their study on who were being detained at Oakington Immigration Centre in Cambridgeshire. They carried out an audit of reports of torture over a six-month period. The results showed that 17 per cent of people at the Center reported that they were tortured in their home countries.

Some reported cases of physical methods of torture such as being beaten with blunt objects, barbed wire, or fire. Other physical torture included various types of stabbing, covering with then exposed to insects, burning, finger or toenail extraction and foreign objects placed under nails.

Others experienced sexual torture including rape, forced bestiality, genital mutilation and forced abortion. Others still were suffocated or immersed in water, or forced to witness rape, violence or murder.

The majority of those who reported such incidents were fleeing . Others had come from Asia, the Middle East and Europe.

“The torture reported by these people is horrific,” said Kate Izycki, Senior Nurse who specialises in Transcultural Psychiatry.  “This highlights that the use of torture continues and that the perpetrators are finding more elaborate methods; some of which often leave no physical mark.”

Dr. Warfa’s previous research has shown that victims of torture are highly likely to suffer from severe mental health problems including post-traumatic stress disorder, depression, anxiety and feeling suicidal.

He adds: “Finding yourself in a foreign country where you must negotiate a difficult asylum system, where you cannot work and where you may not be able to speak the language would be difficult for anyone. Then add caused by torture and the ever-present possibility of deportation”.

“This new study clearly shows that we need to identify and address the health needs of those who have fled to the UK following in their home countries.” 

Explore further: Multidisciplinary study reveals big story of cultural migration (w/ Video)

Provided by Queen Mary University of London

4.2 /5 (5 votes)
add to favorites email to friend print save as pdf

Related Stories

Evidence of medical complicity in torture at Guantanamo Bay

Apr 26, 2011

Inspection of medical records, case files, and legal affidavits provides compelling evidence that medical personnel who treated detainees at Guantanamo Bay (GTMO) failed to inquire and/or document causes of physical injuries ...

Crossing the line: What constitutes torture?

Apr 13, 2011

Torture. The United Nations defines it as the “infliction of severe physical or mental pain or suffering.” But how severe is severe? That judgment determines whether or not the law classifies an interrogation practice ...

Recommended for you

Congressional rift over environment influences public

4 hours ago

American citizens are increasingly divided over the issue of environmental protection and seem to be taking their cue primarily from Congress, finds new research led by a Michigan State University scholar.

Decoding ethnic labels

Jul 30, 2014

If you are of Latin American descent, do you call yourself Chicano? Latino? Hispanic?

Local education politics 'far from dead'

Jul 29, 2014

Teach for America, known for recruiting teachers, is also setting its sights on capturing school board seats across the nation. Surprisingly, however, political candidates from the program aren't just pushing ...

First grade reading suffers in segregated schools

Jul 29, 2014

A groundbreaking study from the Frank Porter Graham Child Development Institute (FPG) has found that African-American students in first grade experience smaller gains in reading when they attend segregated schools—but the ...

User comments : 81

Adjust slider to filter visible comments by rank

Display comments: newest first

Squirrel
2.5 / 5 (2) Dec 23, 2011
Human are unique in suffering intent. Indeed, intent can cause far deeper and more severe distress than physical pain. The dentist's drill might be painful but that goes unlike the suffering if the same physical pain instead of aiding you has been to give the "dentist" pleasure. Much of morality is driven be the need to reduce this peculiarly human form of suffering. Asylum is also about intent--good intent,the offering of safety.
rawa1
1 / 5 (11) Dec 23, 2011
Apparently the waterboarding is obsolete already. The science should develop humane way of torture, which doesn't leave both psychical, both physical scars. Pleasant and economically effective.
kochevnik
2.5 / 5 (11) Dec 23, 2011
@Squirrel I couldn't care less about intent. Anyone engaging is torture is subhuman. If the instigator be a minor minor perhaps treatment is in order. Any adult doing so is less than an animal, and should be put down like any beast that has tasted human blood. I couldn't take torture any more personally than being attacked by a bear, except that the bear is more rational.

Torturers aka Nazis are incomplete without a bullet lodged in their spine.
Pirouette
2.2 / 5 (10) Dec 23, 2011
@KomradeKochevnik
You seem to have linked ONLY Nazis to torture. Torture was also prevalent in the Soviet Union as well as in many other countries, both physical and mental torture. I think I know already your favoritism toward the Communist party. Correct me if I'm mistaken. But torture of all kinds have occurred everywhere.
LOL. . .even verbal torture is attempted by certain people here on Physorg. . .and you know that's true. Not meaning you, of course. The attempt invariably fails, however.
In my 32 years on the job, I think I've seen it all. . . .domestic violence, organized criminals torturing their victims, old men burned by young punks, you name it, I've seen it. But like the article says, outward appearances can fool everyone else. The tortured one is hurting inside also, not just in a physical sense.

Pirouette
2.5 / 5 (10) Dec 23, 2011
@rawa1. . . .if the torture is humane, it isn't torture. There's no way anyone can be tortured without some sort of pain, unless the one doing the torture says that someone's children are about to be killed and the one being tortured doesn't care.
Cave_Man
1 / 5 (6) Dec 23, 2011
@KomradeKochevnik
You seem to have linked ONLY Nazis to torture.



You misread, im sure he was equating anyone who tortures to a Nazi, which has become a way to express a lack of morals even when it should be obvious to the person doing the immoral act how immoral it is.

Personally I would love to be a cave man, barely any if any communication, probably in great physical shape, and more in touch with the universe than any physicist or cosmologist.

I'm a cave man in a car, i start freaking out as it accelerates because I understand momentum in a much more direct way then a scientist who calculates it all day long. Go run into a wall at like 4mph and tell me driving 75mph is safe even under "safe conditions".

And yet when the scientist is in a bad car crash he will be incredibly surprised at the magnitude of the experience.

Cave men do it better. Except torture, we have no need for that.
kochevnik
2 / 5 (8) Dec 23, 2011
@KomradeKochevnik
You seem to have linked ONLY Nazis to torture. Torture was also prevalent in the Soviet Union as well as in many other countries
Communism, nazism, catholicism it's all the came. Empty talk about a liberal utopia while employing dark age austerity dictatorships. It's fascist conservatism. Commonly know as Catholicism. Stalin was given a catholic Jesuit education. Hitler professed to be a lifelong catholic. The church spread these fascists worldwide through the Vatican ratline. Now we see gestapo techniques being deployed everywhere. Hitler lover Bush Sr. announced the revelation of Hitler's second book, "New World Order" on Sep 11, 1991. Exactly 10 years later his son unleashed nazi institutions like "Homeland" insecurity and patriot acts with the detonation of the WTC. Now the USA is embarking on eternal warfare just as Hitler dreamed.
Cave_Man
1.8 / 5 (5) Dec 23, 2011
@KomradeKochevnik
You seem to have linked ONLY Nazis to torture. Torture was also prevalent in the Soviet Union as well as in many other countries
Communism, nazism, catholicism it's all the came. Empty talk about a liberal utopia while employing dark age austerity dictatorships. It's fascist conservatism. Commonly know as Catholicism. Stalin was given a catholic Jesuit education. Hitler professed to be a lifelong catholic. The church spread these fascists worldwide through the Vatican ratline. Now we see gestapo techniques being deployed everywhere. Hitler lover Bush Sr. announced the revelation of Hitler's second book, "New World Order" on Sep 11, 1991. Exactly 10 years later his son unleashed nazi institutions like "Homeland" insecurity and patriot acts with the detonation of the WTC. Now the USA is embarking on eternal warfare just as Hitler dreamed.


Welcome to a "fusion" center, your number has been assigned.
Osiris1
1.8 / 5 (5) Dec 23, 2011
Take a good look at the Tea Party programs and compare them to NSDAP programs during the period before the Great Patriotic War. They are so similar that the hair will stand up on the back of your neck. Go ahead ...use that internet for what it was designed and find out for yourself! By the way for those too young to know, the NSDAP was the acronym for the nazi party. It got that nickname because long names were shortened just like here. The German Democratic Socialist Party were called the Sozis, for instance.
MorituriMax
1.8 / 5 (5) Dec 24, 2011
Osiris1, the Tea Party? Really? Wow, bet that was hard for you to come up with. I think you need to be investigated, have your life torn apart, and have your parents and relatives lives torn apart for those "ideas." Oh wait, that only happens in YOUR world, not the one sane people live in. The Tea Party, rightttttt. Seek help. At least you didn't bring up aether theory.
FrankHerbert
0.9 / 5 (57) Dec 24, 2011
Nah, it's really not that far of a stretch MorituriMax. I won't go as far as to say they ARE fascists or NAZIs, but they are definitely proto-fascists. They have an unhealthy reverence for authority and a tendency to otherize.

Replace Muslim with Jew and you might start to see the similarities.

http://en.wikiped.../Fascism

Fascism is a radical authoritarian nationalist political ideology.


Radical authoritarian nationalist political ideology. Sounds about right.

Fascists seek to rejuvenate their nation based on commitment to the national community as an organic entity, in which individuals are bound together in national identity by suprapersonal connections of ancestry, culture, and blood.


"Real america", "blood and treasure", "Christian nation", etc. Any taken individually wouldn't worry me but the Tea Party definitely displays a pattern here.

I will repeat the Tea Party are not fascists. They are however heading down a dangerous road.
finitesolutions
1 / 5 (3) Dec 24, 2011
If the scars are invisible so should be the treatment.
"health needs" : you are never sick enough for the doctors : what are doctors to do if everybody is healthy ?
Having to pay taxes is torture also ( quite constant).
finitesolutions
1 / 5 (3) Dec 24, 2011
"and the ever-present possibility of deportation"
UK is full of people for the size of it. You must maintain the most able persons in order to be competitive. Weak individuals are a drag to the more able persons. If everybody has special needs who will cater for them?... nobody.
MarkyMark
1 / 5 (1) Dec 24, 2011
If the scars are invisible so should be the treatment.
"health needs" : you are never sick enough for the doctors : what are doctors to do if everybody is healthy ?
Having to pay taxes is torture also ( quite constant).

Aha i see so mental torture is just made up so that Doctors can justify there jobs ( rolls eyes ).
Tausch
1 / 5 (2) Dec 24, 2011
The noninvasive and still the most effective form (of torture)is isolation (solitary confinement).
This form is also the most feared.
Doug_Huffman
1 / 5 (2) Dec 24, 2011
The media would have us believe that bullying is the most effective.
kochevnik
3 / 5 (4) Dec 24, 2011
LOL I see the board has four Nazi sympathizers MarkyMark | geokstr | George_Rodart | orac.
Isaacsname
not rated yet Dec 25, 2011
The noninvasive and still the most effective form (of torture)is isolation (solitary confinement).
This form is also the most feared.


...Makes you wonder why people fear being alone with themselves for an extended time.

My own ten year tour of various institutions when I was younger showed me that there are many ways a mind can be warped, curiously many of those doing the " warping " are twisted and sick individuals themselves.
Noumenon
4.5 / 5 (54) Dec 25, 2011
I won't go as far as to say they ARE fascists or NAZIs, but they are definitely proto-fascists. They have an unhealthy reverence for authority and a tendency to otherize. - FrankHerbert,


Wow, the Huffinhton-Post really did a number on you. LOL.

The Tea Party are for LIMITED government control and individualism, exactly counter to fascism. Facists and the Nazi's subordinated the individual to the nation, and were all about social engineering and control. The Tea Party categorically opposed to this. What authority are you implying the Tea Party are for?
kochevnik
3 / 5 (4) Dec 25, 2011
The Tea Party are for LIMITED government control and individualism
In the Bush years, repubs were a MENACE to America freedom. As the moronic drumbeat of "Be afraid" started to finally die out, they desperately tried to extend it by becoming FEARMONGERS trying to spread fear of everything from the government to Middle-Eastern Nations that haven't even attacked anybody in over 100 years. Now, with the recession the #1 issue in the nation today, they have become TRAITORS to the Constitution and to the people of America.

Tee Party House Speaker John Boehner, beaten and dazed, responding to questions from reporters yesterday said, "We have fought the good fight. Why not do the right thing for the American people even though its not exactly what we want."
kochevnik
3 / 5 (4) Dec 25, 2011
curiously many of those doing the "warping" are twisted and sick individuals themselves.
That's about as surprising as a duck quacking. More revealing: how many were conservatives and religious/masonic nutters?
Pirouette
2.1 / 5 (7) Dec 25, 2011
KomradeKochevnik. . .do you find it ironic that so soon after American troops left Iraq, that the Sunnis and Shiites are at each others' throats? What is your opinion of the outcome of that?
Pirouette
2 / 5 (8) Dec 25, 2011
What's his name. . . al Maliki? I don't think Maliki can control the 2 groups and they're gonna tear each other apart. . .now that there's nobody there to stop them.
John Boehner is a big disappointment. He may as well bend over and grab his ankles and let Obama pork him when Obama gets back from vacation.
Noumenon
4.4 / 5 (56) Dec 25, 2011
In the Bush years, repubs were a MENACE to America freedom. As the moronic drumbeat of "Be afraid" started to finally die out, they desperately tried to extend it by becoming FEARMONGERS trying to spread fear of everything from the government to Middle-Eastern Nations that haven't even attacked anybody in over 100 years.


Congress voted to go to war, in Iraq and Afghanistan. This included the vast majority if democrats. And don't tell me Bush lied to them, their vote was not contingent on Bush's words.

Remember Sept 11, 2001? Pretty spectacular wasn't it. It required things to be broken in that part of the world where such terrorist breed. So, don't give this Fearmonger BS.
Noumenon
4.4 / 5 (57) Dec 25, 2011
I already covered the justification in the following thread where eventually Ethelred would flee and hide under his desk.

http://www.physor...eme.html

And here as Erscheinung,

http://www.physor...nce.html
Pirouette
1.9 / 5 (9) Dec 25, 2011
Yeah, that's true, the Democrats gave their full support to invade Iraq, even Nancy Pelosi (aka Bela Lugosi) thought it was a great idea. And now they're beating a dead horse (GWBush) even though the Dems never bothered to QUESTION the information. The Democrats did not want their Party to become unpopular if they said no. . .otherwise they would lose votes at the next election.
kochevnik
2.1 / 5 (7) Dec 25, 2011
Remember Sept 11, 2001? Pretty spectacular wasn't it. It required things to be broken in that part of the world where such terrorist breed. So, don't give this Fearmonger BS.
Yes it proved the 9/11 terrorists worked for the US government. And yes now it breeds state-sponsored terrorism "in that part of the world." So you acknowledge the USA sponsors terrorism? You're very forthright today.
Pirouette
2.1 / 5 (11) Dec 25, 2011
The truth is: Democrats are only interested in getting votes, rather than doing the right thing. They will get those votes no matter what, even if they have to give citizenship to illegals Mexicans, and prevent (by Law) election committees from requiring voter identification to ensure one vote from one voter. With no identification requirement, everyone in a city or town can go from one voting booth to another, then another, etc. etc. That's a way to stuff the ballot boxes.
Pirouette
2 / 5 (12) Dec 25, 2011
You're wrong, KK. .the U.S. does NOT sponsor terrorism. . .except having to watch Michelle Obama doing jumping jacks. . . that's sheer terror.
kochevnik
3 / 5 (6) Dec 25, 2011
You're wrong, KK. .the U.S. does NOT sponsor terrorism. .
Don't talk to me. Convince Noumenon. He just determined it does. Anyone voting me down has proven they aren't rational. I'm just applying elementary logic.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (8) Dec 25, 2011
it isn't ironic or surprising at all. In fact it was absolutely predictable. Saddam kept them in line. Iraq under Saddam was a secular society. That will no longer be the case with Saddam murdered by an ineffective American puppet government.

"do you find it ironic that so soon after American troops left Iraq, that the Sunnis and Shiites are at each others' throats?" - Spirochete
Vendicar_Decarian
2.5 / 5 (13) Dec 25, 2011
"You're wrong, KK. .the U.S. does NOT sponsor terrorism. . " - Spirochete

And yet terrorism is exactly what the U.S. and Israel are engaged in in Iran.

America has been the biggest sponsor and conductor of state terrorism in the history of the world.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.2 / 5 (9) Dec 25, 2011
"Congress voted to go to war, in Iraq and Afghanistan. This included the vast majority if democrats. And don't tell me Bush lied to them" - NoumenTard

Bush lied repeatedly and constantly. He presented forged documents about Iraq's non-existent nuclear program.

Bush was so brazen in his lies that he claimed that Iraq refused to allow U.N. inspectors into Iraq when those inspectors were in Iraq doing their job.

Bush and the cowards in his administration did little else but lie to the American people.
Noumenon
4.5 / 5 (54) Dec 25, 2011
Yes it proved the 9/11 terrorists worked for the US government.- kocknivek


So, it was an inside job was it?
Noumenon
4.4 / 5 (57) Dec 25, 2011
"Congress voted to go to war, in Iraq and Afghanistan. This included the vast majority if democrats. And don't tell me Bush lied to them" - my superior, Noumenon

Bush lied repeatedly and constantly. He presented forged documents about Iraq's non-existent nuclear program.

Bush was so brazen in his lies that he claimed that Iraq refused to allow U.N. inspectors into Iraq when those inspectors were in Iraq doing their job.

Bush and the cowards in his administration did little else but lie to the American people. - Antique Troll Vendicar


I'm not going to rehash this out again. Read the two above links, take notes, and learn something of reality apart from ridiculous conspiracy theories.
bluehigh
2.4 / 5 (14) Dec 25, 2011
America has been the biggest sponsor and conductor of state terrorism in the history of the world.
- Vendicar

Torturous hearsay without a reference Vendi.
kochevnik
2.6 / 5 (5) Dec 25, 2011
Yes it proved the 9/11 terrorists worked for the US government.- kocknivek
So, it was an inside job was it?
The FBI has in recent years used trained informants not just to snitch on suspected terrorists, but to set them up from the get-go. A recent report put together by Mother Jones and the Investigative Reporting Program at the University of California-Berkley analyses some striking statistics about the role of FBI informants in terrorism cases that the Bureau has targeted in the decade since the September 11 attacks.

The report reveals that the FBI regularly infiltrates communities where they suspect terrorist-minded individuals to be engaging with others. Regardless of their intentions, agents are sent in to converse within the community, find suspects that could potentially carry out lone wolf attacks and then, more or less, encourage them to do so.
kochevnik
2.6 / 5 (5) Dec 25, 2011
contd: By providing weaponry, funds and a plan, FBI-directed agents will encourage otherwise-unwilling participants to plot out terrorist attacks, only to bust them before any events fully materialize.

Additionally, one former high-level FBI officials speaking to Mother Jones says that, for every informant officially employed by the bureau, up to three unofficial agents are working undercover.

http://rt.com/usa...365-899/
kochevnik
2.6 / 5 (5) Dec 25, 2011
Had to get this in: "In fact, reads the report, only three of the more well-known terror plots of the last decade werent orchestrated by FBI-involved agents."

Torturous hearsay without a reference Vendi.
Did you know "argument from ignorance" is a logical fallacy? For some reason some conservatives believe otherwise, as if ignorance is their source of inspiration.
Noumenon
4.6 / 5 (54) Dec 25, 2011
And you irrationally interpret that how exactly? The FBI manufactured the terrorists?

I'll ask again, are you saying 9/11 was an inside job?

@Vendicar, I can flood this thread with quotes from prominent democrats implying Saddam was a imminent threat. Their opinions were never contingent on Bush, only factual history. I laid this out in the other thread.
kochevnik
1 / 5 (3) Dec 25, 2011
I'll ask again, are you saying 9/11 was an inside job?
Apparently you can't read. What part of "only three of the more well-known terror plots of the last decade weren't orchestrated by FBI-involved agents" do you not grasp?
bluehigh
2.2 / 5 (13) Dec 25, 2011
FBI-directed agents will encourage otherwise-unwilling participants to plot out terrorist attacks
- kochevnik

Of course. Why should they actually go looking for genuine threats and protect themselves, family, country and paymasters? Instead these highly trained American patriots are out there wasting time encouraging insurrection.

Is propagating paranoia a form of torture?

plaasjaapie
1 / 5 (1) Dec 25, 2011
I'm left to wonder how many of these descriptions are true, given that these people are seeking asylum. If I were and economic migrant trying to get into the EU or US, I'd be likely to cook up as colourful as story as I could manage.

I'm reminded of the case of Nafissatou Diallo in the Strauss-Khan honey trap setup. It's been demonstration that she pretty much lies every time she speaks and it's always for money or advantage. How common is her type?

http://gothamist...._dep.php

kochevnik
2 / 5 (4) Dec 25, 2011
Is propagating paranoia a form of torture?
Is forcing you to think instead of braying like a sheep tantamount to torture? Is your willful ignorance a form of conservatism?

FBI sponsored WTC 1993 Bomb Attack: http://video.goog...68737845
Pirouette
2.2 / 5 (10) Dec 25, 2011
see that. . .even Venditurbulence is STILL beating the dead horse (GWBush). Whatever Bush and his cronies did is over. NOW we have Obama and next year (2012) when a Conservative is elected President, we'll be talking about what OBUMMER and what HE and his commie cronies did. The danger is if Obummer gets reelected. He is far WORSE than Bush. . .higher deficit, bad immigration laws, homeland security sucks, the teachers are more concerned with getting a condom on a cucumber than the 3 R's, etc. etc.
THAT is pure torture, to live in a country where the President goes on, let's see, um. ..how many vacations in 3 years?. . .and to hear him talk about the downtrodden and the poor boo hoo, and how the big bad rich guy up there on the hill is screwing over everybody in the valley below, and he keeps farting around getting the rabble excited. . .almost storming the gates of the rich while Barry and michelle have lobster and other good stuff for dinner and plan their next vacation
Pirouette
2.2 / 5 (9) Dec 25, 2011
contd: By providing weaponry, funds and a plan, FBI-directed agents will encourage otherwise-unwilling participants to plot out terrorist attacks, only to bust them before any events fully materialize.

Additionally, one former high-level FBI officials speaking to Mother Jones says that, for every informant officially employed by the bureau, up to three unofficial agents are working undercover.

http://rt.com/usa...365-899/

KomradeK. . .so what's your point? This is the way it is. . .which is the only way to get the hard facts on potential terrorism, foreign or domestic. If it weren't for the FBI doing their job, civilians would have to investigate these potential murderers, and we're obviously not equipped to do that. Think of the consequences of NOT having an investigative agency to track down potential murderers. . .you and your children would NOT be safe
bluehigh
2.1 / 5 (11) Dec 25, 2011
Is forcing you to think instead of braying like a sheep tantamount to torture?


Yes it is today. As a public holiday here I reserve the option to bray like a sheep if i want. If you interfere you also violate animal rights and that includes torturing me with re-education.

Is your willful ignorance a form of conservatism?


How would I know, I'm a sheep.
Pirouette
2.3 / 5 (9) Dec 25, 2011
and potential terrorists are NOT being set up to do a terrorist act. . .they are WILLING to do it. You can't drag someone kicking and screaming and talk him into hijacking a plane and fly it into a building
kochevnik
2.3 / 5 (3) Dec 25, 2011
and potential terrorists are NOT being set up to do a terrorist act. . .they are WILLING to do it. You can't drag someone kicking and screaming and talk him into hijacking a plane and fly it into a building
Actually in the 1993 bombing the FBI wanted to put on a false flag prelude for USA eternal war on terror, but Salem realized they were setting him up. Instead of a harmless powder the FBI chose to use actual explosive to build their bomb. Salem videotaped the agents detonating the 1993 bomb to indemnify himself and document proof that the US is engaged in sponsoring domestic terrorism. He secretly recorded hundreds of hours of telephone conversations with his FBI handlers; reported by Ralph Blumenthal in the New York Times.
Pirouette
1.9 / 5 (9) Dec 25, 2011
I'm left to wonder how many of these descriptions are true, given that these people are seeking asylum. If I were and economic migrant trying to get into the EU or US, I'd be likely to cook up as colourful as story as I could manage.

I'm reminded of the case of Nafissatou Diallo in the Strauss-Khan honey trap setup. It's been demonstration that she pretty much lies every time she speaks and it's always for money or advantage. How common is her type?

http://gothamist...._dep.php



Sorry. . .not familiar with that case. But it sounds a bit like the railroading job that Herman Cain got from the 3 floozies to prevent him from staying in the Presidential race. I often wonder how much money each of them got for their transgressions.
Pirouette
2 / 5 (8) Dec 25, 2011
and potential terrorists are NOT being set up to do a terrorist act. . .they are WILLING to do it. You can't drag someone kicking and screaming and talk him into hijacking a plane and fly it into a building
Actually in the 1993 bombing the FBI wanted to put on a false flag prelude for USA eternal war on terror, but Salem realized they were setting him up. Instead of a harmless powder the FBI chose to use actual explosive to build their bomb. Salem videotaped the agents detonating the 1993 bomb to indemnify himself and document proof that the US is engaged in sponsoring domestic terrorism. He secretly recorded hundreds of hours of telephone conversations with his FBI handlers; reported by Ralph Blumenthal in the New York Times.

KomradeK. . ..surely you don't really believe that every CIA, FBI, NEA, or DEA agent is without sin. History has it that for every 5 honest agents, there may be 1 or 2 who have to be reeducated to regain the straight and narrow.
Pirouette
2 / 5 (8) Dec 25, 2011
In a small percentage of these actions, there is always the chance of a rogue cop or agent who is only out for himself. That certainly does NOT reflect on the agency as a whole. One or two rogues does not make the whole department rotten.
bluehigh
2.3 / 5 (12) Dec 25, 2011
@Vendi

I had a quick look and I found (among extensive argument about what actually is a terrorist and that got boring) is a quote from Chomsky "We should not forget that the U.S. itself is a leading terrorist state."
http://www.chomsk...--02.htm

Pirouette
2 / 5 (8) Dec 25, 2011
Is forcing you to think instead of braying like a sheep tantamount to torture?


Yes it is today. As a public holiday here I reserve the option to bray like a sheep if i want. If you interfere you also violate animal rights and that includes torturing me with re-education.

Is your willful ignorance a form of conservatism?


How would I know, I'm a sheep.

@bluehigh. . .lOL. . .great comeback. . .loved it. . .didn't know that sheep could bray though.
kaasinees
2 / 5 (4) Dec 25, 2011
You're wrong, KK. .the U.S. does NOT sponsor terrorism. . .except having to watch Michelle Obama doing jumping jacks. . . that's sheer terror.

Yeah right, they never supported Gadaffi and Bin Laden?
Then they flagged them as terrorists years later.
They admit it they financed terrorists.
Thats what they say anyway.
Pirouette
2 / 5 (8) Dec 25, 2011
Well, which Presidents supported those 2 guys? KomradeKochevnik might say that it was actually the Bank of England that supported them along with the Rothschilds. George Soros can buy and sell countries with his money. There are things going on that not even the President of the U.S. knows about.
bluehigh
2 / 5 (12) Dec 25, 2011
the U.S. does NOT sponsor terrorism.
- Pirouette

Kaasinees is also supported by Chomsky and Vendi.

.. the U.S. itself is a leading terrorist state.

except having to watch Michelle Obama doing jumping jacks. . . that's sheer terror
- Pirouette

In a form of self torture I found it on YouTube. I feel sick now.
Pirouette
1.9 / 5 (9) Dec 25, 2011
@Vendi

I had a quick look and I found (among extensive argument about what actually is a terrorist and that got boring) is a quote from Chomsky "We should not forget that the U.S. itself is a leading terrorist state."
http://www.chomsk...--02.htm


I believe Avram Noam Chomsky is a Socialist who hates Capitalism and the U.S. in general. Had he been living in the Soviet Union, he might have been a Liberal and, as you know, in the U.S.S.R., a Liberal was anti-Communist and would've aided and abetted the tearing down of the Soviet Union. But Chomsky is an America Liberal which is a whole different animal. He has bitten the hand that feeds him and is a phony baloney plastic banana. He doesn't like Capitalism, BUT he never turns down the money he gets for his "works".
Pirouette
1.8 / 5 (10) Dec 25, 2011
@bluehigh. . . .no, you didn't? oh please no. . .not that? I can't take that woman anymore.
Michelle Obummer is the pits. . .ptooey
Gotta wonder why Barry didn't marry a babe like Beyonce
Pirouette
1.8 / 5 (10) Dec 26, 2011
bluehigh. . .from the very beginning of the American Revolutionary War, the fledgling government indulged in a form of terrorism to defeat the British who were attempting to bring the colonists back under the rule of the monarchy. In order to resist the armies sent out to either kill the colonists or throw them into prison. The colonials were very smart and even though their numbers were small, they had the incentive of liberty and individualism and their faith in their God to keep them from giving in to the efforts of King George to enslave them again. In their own effort to keep their freedom, the terrorism they used was for a good cause and it wasn't a frivolous reason to grab power. In the case of Saddam and Gaddafi. whatever type of terrorism was used for whatever purpose, it would have been nothing even similar to the Revolution. You could say that somebody wanted power, money and control over something.
Pirouette
1.9 / 5 (9) Dec 26, 2011
Whatever it was, it wasn't something over which the ordinary citizen has a say. No matter who is in power at the moment, things are done that are considered expedient for the survival of a country. There are other things that also may be done, not for the survival of a country, but for the survival of the leader of a country. That usually depends on who is in charge and what their motives are.
Ethelred
2.3 / 5 (6) Dec 26, 2011
I already covered the justification in the following thread where eventually Ethelred would flee and hide under his desk.
I said what I had to say. There was no reason to stay and waste time arguing with the massively and aggressively ignorant. I left the Rossi Ecat wankoff thread around the same time as well. For the same reason.

And I don't have a desk.

I have hid under desks. When the Air Raid sirens went off at 10am on the last Friday of the month we were required to hide under our desks. Just like we were required to go outside during a fire alarm drill.

That first part was also massively stupid. If the Bombs started dropping in Southern California we were all going to die whether we we under the desks or not. However the stupidity was that of the adults not of us kids that were told to do the stupid things.

And no you did not prove that the Democrats were fully informed, as they were in fact lied to. Just as YOU were lied to.

Ethelred

finitesolutions
3 / 5 (4) Dec 26, 2011
"He doesn't like Capitalism, BUT he never turns down the money he gets for his "works"."
He might turn down dollars and accept other currencies.

Asking somebody to work for free for whatever reasons equals to slavery. Hell even unemployed people get money for free for no work done.
"He has bitten the hand that feeds him..." Was that your hand? Did it leave an invisible scar?
Pirouette
2.2 / 5 (13) Dec 26, 2011
Personal altruism is the taking of one's own money to give to others, but Socialism is the forced taking of money from those who have earned it and giving it freely to those who haven't. Chomsky believes in Socialism, therefore he believes in thievery from those who work hard, to those who don't work at all and have no intention of working. Therefore, Avram Noam Chomsky has a belief in SLAVERY. He is a slaver of men because his writings promote the ideals of slavery through Socialism.
Pirouette
2.1 / 5 (11) Dec 26, 2011
@Ethelred. . . .for some strange reason, TheGhost thinks I'm a woman even though I told Noumenon (in another thread) about my wartime experience in VietNam as a draftee. He also thinks that I would be stupid enough to have a user name like Pirouette2 to make other members think that I am giving the low or high scores. I wonder how he/she gets these irrational thoughts when it's obviously the troll FrankHerbert doing the name changing and getting his kicks out of trying to fool everyone on Physorg.
I used to think that Ghost was intelligent, but he's been displaying some mindfarts for awhile now. AND he is insisting on my leaving Physorg and never commenting on anything again.
Is Ghost some kind of authoritative figure in the threads?
finitesolutions
3 / 5 (4) Dec 26, 2011
Slavery can not exist without a slave market. Socialism does not provide a slave market so it can not count as slavery. Socialism does have its benefits as it provides employment for every citizen. Try saying something bad to your manager/boss and you will lose your job in an instant. You are somehow the slave of your company owner : and I am sure you work harder than the boss ( after all he/she is busy spending the profits )
Vendicar_Decarian
2.8 / 5 (9) Dec 26, 2011
Americans are so happy about being wage slaves that they will even deny being one.

Their argument is that since they can be traded between slave owners, they aren't slaves at all.

I think that they have a bit of a point on that issue. It makes them less slaves and more like cattle.

Cattle, if they try hard enough, can escape from their owners.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.5 / 5 (10) Dec 26, 2011
Poor Spirochete, he just manufactures whatever definitions he likes. In this case for "socialism".

One wonders of those giant transparent gelatinous aliens that he has found on Mars would support his Conservative delusions.

I doubt it.


"Socialism is the forced taking of money from those who have earned it and giving it freely to those who haven't." - Spirochete

TheGhostofOtto1923
2.5 / 5 (8) Dec 26, 2011
Cattle, if they try hard enough, can escape from their owners.
I think you are not appreciating the fundamental nature of cattle VD. Cattle wouldnt exist without their Owners. Cattle are a created speciies, meant to serve a specific Purpose. Over hundreds of gens the ones which wanted to escape were culled. The ones which are left would be very uncomfortable on their own.

So we have to consider that the escapist fantasies which we entertain, and which make us feel so good, may only be a different sort of conformance. Because if we truly wanted to escape it would make us feel very nervous.

More evidence that your opinions are not your own.

2 Sides - 1 Coin. They win every toss.

Hey - heres spirochete torturing herself:
http://www.youtub...XpLOYfog
Pirouette
1.9 / 5 (9) Dec 26, 2011
All you people. . .don't mind what GhostofOtto says about anyone. . .she's got her rag on. . .you know how some women are when they get their premenstrual syndrome (PMS). Ghost is horny for Vendicar and is always teasing him. LOL
Pirouette
1.9 / 5 (9) Dec 26, 2011
@Vendi. . .you're so Liberal now. . .but wait until Obama wins again next year and he really gets that Socialist $hit going. . .you'll be wanting to run to Argentina, otherwise you'll be down in the rathole with the other 99% while Obama will be part of the 1% at the top. He's not planning to step down at any time. You will be on the wrong side of the $hit stick. I can almost hear you screaming and crying like a baby when the internet gets censored and you can't say anything online unless it's to praise the Socialists/Communists and Obama. LOL
Oh wait. . .that's right. . .you think like a Socialist, talk like a Socialist, therefore you must be a Socialist. Actually, the REAL Socialists will determine if you are a Socialist. If they take a big cut out of your salary or pension and you scream about it. . .you're no Socialist.
Pirouette
2 / 5 (8) Dec 26, 2011
finitesolutions says:
Slavery can not exist without a slave market. Socialism does not provide a slave market so it can not count as slavery. Socialism does have its benefits as it provides employment for every citizen. Try saying something bad to your manager/boss and you will lose your job in an instant. You are somehow the slave of your company owner : and I am sure you work harder than the boss ( after all he/she is busy spending the profits )

Pirouette
1.9 / 5 (9) Dec 26, 2011
Actually, Socialism IS slavery when the individual becomes a slave to the State and is FORCED at the point of a gun to do whatever the State wants. In this case, the State would be the U.S. government with Obama and his appointees as the heads of the State. Just as Joseph Stalin was the head of the Communist Party in the Soviet Union and had any opposition killed, so too will the slave state of Obama proceed in more or less the same way. Guantanamo is still open.
A job is only a means of acquiring a certain amount of one's "wealth" every pay period. At this time, the worker is free to spend or save that money after taxes.
Pirouette
1.9 / 5 (9) Dec 26, 2011
But under Socialism, some Bureaucrat in Washington will determine how much of a salary or pension you deserve to have. . .and you will not have a say in that determination.
But, let's say you protest against a pay cut because you can't afford it. Under Socialism, you will be ostracized and maybe thrown in jail as being an enemy of the State. Now I KNOW you will love that, Vendi when you get to meet big ol' Bubba and his corn rows. You will do what the State demands of you and no backtalk and no protestations. Any of that $hit and you and others will be lined up against the wall.
I know you're just dying to have your dream come true. You might be able to weasel your way into someone's protection, but you will have to pay a lot of money or do the nightly horizontal mambo with Big Daddy.
LOL
Pirouette
1.8 / 5 (10) Dec 26, 2011
Oh. .and Vendi. . .if you're really in Canada as you think you are. . .under Socialism, the U.S. government will invade Canada and arrest all of your Conservative Canadian government or kill them all. I know you will dance a jig when that happens. But wait, if you declare yourself as a Socialist and then protest against all the wonderful things that the Socialist State wants to do for you, like make you work for very little pay and/or cut your pension in half; and if you protest, you will be ostracized and thrown into jail with Big Bubba the he-man. You will get to do the nightly horizontal mambo with him too. :)
As you are reading all this, I just KNOW you're drooling at the thought of it. Don't worry, it will come soon enough. There probably aren't enough Conservatives anyway to make much of a difference and Obama will be President again. . .and then the Dictator-in-Chief. Just think of all the excited Liberals when they find out that they will once again be BETRAYED by Obummer. :)
Pirouette
1.9 / 5 (10) Dec 26, 2011
Oh yes. . .there will be NO Social Security or Medicare for the elderly because all that money will get taken out of the lockbox and used for other purposes, as it has been all along. . .instead, the old people will have to continue working to pay for Obamacare and other pet projects. When the old folks finally kick the bucket, the spouse will still get $250 from the Social Security Admin towards the price of a decent cremation. Nobody will be allowed a burial since it's a waste of land.
After a few years of Socialism, the President will declare a national emergency, and Communism will be instituted and the U.S. Constitution thrown in the garbage can of history. When Vendi needs an operation to save his life when he's old, they will tell him. . .sorry, it's too expensive. Here's some pain killers for you. Vendi will dance another jig when he hears that.
I would like to see it all happen. . .so please, PLEASE vote for Obama. We WANT to be like China.
:)
Mahal_Kita
not rated yet Dec 27, 2011
and potential terrorists are NOT being set up to do a terrorist act. . .they are WILLING to do it. You can't drag someone kicking and screaming and talk him into hijacking a plane and fly it into a building


Hm.. I admit that was a trauma. What happened since? Not a big deal. Yeah.. Like a few tens of thousands of people murdered in Afghanistan, but who the flying doodles care about them muslims? Hey.. The US were there to put a favorable government in place.. Let me rephrase that.. Bring democracy, right? The world got the message; do not fly planes into US buildings. Now stand down.
Pirouette
1.5 / 5 (8) Dec 27, 2011
Well, with 91,000 U.S. soldiers still in Afghanistan, all Obama has to do is tell President Hamid Karzai that he's bringing our guys home and Karzai is on his own. BUT. . .unfortunately, once they leave Afghanistan, in comes Al Quaida all over the place to slaughter all of the natives who cooperated with the U.S. military. . .and Karzai will not be able to do a thing about it. So, even MORE bloodshed, and talk about torture. . .Guantanamo is a walk in the park compared to what al quaida wil do to those Afghanis.
You don't like democracy in a Muslim country. So you might prefer Sunni against Shiites in a religious war like what's starting in Iraq? More bloodshed when American troops leave Afghanistan. Oh yeah. . .let them kill each other. . .it'll only be a war over religious dogma, not unlike the Catholics and the Protestant wars in Ireland. . .or the Muslims in Pakistan and Hindus in India. Status quo will prevail and heads will roll, but the troops will be gone and that's just fine.
Pirouette
1.5 / 5 (8) Dec 27, 2011
Oh, and we mustn't forget about the Taliban crossing into Afghanistan from Pakistan. They'll get their licks in too. The Sunnis in Iran will most likely cross into Iraq to help their fellow Sunnis against the Shiites, but as long as that evil democracy can't get a foothold, anything else is OK.
Eric_B
5 / 5 (2) Dec 27, 2011
"even verbal torture is attempted by certain people here on Physorg. . .and you know that's true."

to say nothing of the continual intellectual torture and torment; search "aether tech, cold-fusion, vedantic cosmology"
_nigmatic10
not rated yet Dec 28, 2011
I'm waiting for political torture to become illegal so we can prosecute politicians en mass.