Why silicon-based aliens would rather eat our cities than us: Thoughts on non-carbon astrobiology

Dec 21, 2011 By Bruce Dorminey, Universe Today
A graphic associated with the original 'War of the Worlds' by H.G. Wells.

Conventional wisdom has long had it that carbon-based life, so common here on earth, must surely be abundant elsewhere; both in our galaxy and the universe as a whole.

This line of reasoning is founded on two major assumptions; the first being that complex , the building blocks of as we know it, have been detected throughout the .  Carbon’s abundance appears to stretch across much of cosmic time, since its production is thought to have peaked some 7 billion years ago, when the universe was roughly half its current age.

The other major assumption is that life needs an elixir, a solvent on which it can advance its unique complex chemistry.  Water and carbon go hand in hand in making this happen.

While the world as we know it runs on carbon, science fiction’s long flirtation with silicon-based life — “It’s life, but not as we know it” — has become a familiar catchphrase.  But life of any sort should evolve, eat, excrete, reproduce, and respond to stimulus.

And although non-carbon based life is a very long shot, we thought we’d broach the issue  with one of the country’s top astrochemists — Max Bernstein, the Research Lead of the Science Mission Directorate at NASA headquarters in Washington,D.C.

Bruce Dorminey — IS IT WRONG TO ASSUME THAT LIFE COULD BE BASED ON SOMETHING OTHER THAN CARBON?

Max Bernstein — It’s important for us to keep an open mind about alien life, lest we come across it and miss it. On the other hand, carbon is much better than any other element in forming the main structures of living things.  Carbon can form many stable complex structures of great diversity. When carbon forms molecules containing cxygen and nitrogen, the carbon bonds to nitrogen and oxygen are stable.  But not so much so that they can’t be fairly easily undone, unlike silicon-oxygen bonds, for example.

Dorminey — DOES THE RECENT NASA-FUNDED RESEARCH AT MONO LAKE, CALIFORNIA WHICH TOUTED THE DISCOVERY OF BACTERIA WITH DNA THAT USES ARSENIC INSTEAD OF PHOSPHORUS RATTLE THE CURRENT PARADIGM?

Bernstein — That was a really cool result, but the basic structure was still carbon. The arsenic was said to have replaced phosphorus, not carbon.  The discovery of this putative arsenic organism may prove to be incorrect, but it’s a hypothesis with science behind it, and not just someone tossing out an idea and leaving it at the level of what if you replaced carbon with silicon?

Dorminey — SILICON SEEMS TO BE THE MOST POPULAR NON-CARBON BASED CANDIDATE, ARE THERE OTHERS THAT ALSO MIGHT BE FEASIBLE?

Bernstein — It’s hard to imagine anything that would be more likely that silicon because there is nothing closer to carbon than silicon in terms of its chemistry. It’s in the right place on the periodic table, just below carbon.  On the face of it, [silicon-based life] doesn’t seem too absurd since silicon, like carbon, forms four bonds. CH4 is methane and SiH4 is silane.  They are analogous molecules so the basic idea is that perhaps silicon could form an entire parallel chemistry, and even life.  But there are tons of problems with this idea.   We don’t see a complex stable chemistry [solely] of silicon and hydrogen, as we see with carbon and hydrogen.  We use hydrocarbon chains in our lipids (molecules that make up membranes), but the analogous silane chains would not be stable.  Whereas carbon-oxygen bonds can be made and unmade — this goes on in our bodies all the time — this is not true for silicon.  This would severely limit silicon’s life-like chemistry.  Maybe you could have something silicon-based that’s sort of alive, but only in the sense that it passes on information.

Dorminey — IF SILICON-BASED LIFE IS OUT THERE, HOW COULD WE EVER DETECT IT REMOTELY?

Bernstein — We are seriously arguing about how we would remotely detect life just like us, so I really couldn’t say.  Presumably technology-using organisms, whatever their biochemistry, will produce technology, so the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence (SETI) may be our best shot.

Dorminey— HOW WOULD YOU LOOK FOR SILICON-BASED LIFE HERE ON EARTH?

Bernstein — When seeking an alien organism its really tough because you just don’t know what molecules to look for.  One would have to be satisfied by something a bit more ambiguous, like sets of molecules that should not be there. For example, if you were an alien Silicon organism, you might not be looking for our biochemistry, but the fact that you kept seeing exactly the same chain lengths over and over again might tip you off to the fact that those darn carbon chains might actually be the basis of an organism’s membranes.

Dorminey — WHERE ARE THE LARGEST CONCENTRATIONS OF SILICON HERE?
IN SAND?

Bernstein — In sand or rock. There are literally megatons of silicate minerals on Earth.

Dorminey — HAS ANYONE EVER CLAIMED DETECTION OF SELF-REPLICATING EXAMPLES OF SILICON HERE ON EARTH?

Bernstein — There have been ideas about minerals holding information just as DNA holds information.  DNA holds information in a chain that is read from one end to the other.  In contrast, a mineral could hold information in two dimensions [on its surface].  A crystal grows when new atoms arrive on the surface, building layer upon layer.  So, if a crystal sheet cleaved off and then started to grow that would be like the birth of a new organism and would carry information from generation to generation.  But is a replicating crystal alive?  To date, I don’t think that there is actually any evidence that minerals pass information like this.

Dorminey — IS THE CRUX OF THE PROBLEM THAT SILICON-BASED LIFE WOULD BE SO SLOWLY REPLICATING THAT IT COULD NEVER MAKE IT IN A DYNAMIC ?

Bernstein — I don’t think that any Silicon life form could be a biological threat to us.  If they were high tech, they might eat our buildings or shoot guns at us but I don’t see how they could infect us.  We run hot and move fast.  If we don’t, things will catch us and eat us.

If they are also tougher than we are and whatever feeds on them is also slow and Silicon based maybe being slow doesn’t matter.

Dorminey — WHAT WOULD BE THE SIGNATURES OF SILICON-BASED LIFE?

Bernstein — If they are not technological, they would be very tough to detect.  We could look for unstable, unexpected silicon molecules; some high energy molecule that should not be there, or molecular chains of all the same length.

Dorminey — DO YOU THINK THAT SILICON-BASED LIFE MIGHT EXIST SOMEWHERE OUT THERE?

Bernstein — Maybe deep below the surface of a planet in some very hot hydrogen-rich, Oxygen-poor environment, you would have this complex silane chemistry.  There, maybe silanes would form reversible silicon bonds with selenium or tellurium.

Dorminey — IF SUCH SILICON-BASED LIFE DID CROP UP, WHAT WOULD BE ITS EVOLUTIONARY ENDGAME?

Bernstein — If it could evolve past the protist [microorganism] stage, then I think it could evolve intelligence.  I have no idea how likely it is for intelligence to evolve, but I can believe in silicon crystals passing information from layer to layer or in silicon artificial intelligence, but I don’t expect to see apes playing their equivalent of “Angry Birds” on their Silicon-Phones.

Dorminey — IF SILICON-LIFE DID EVOLVE, WOULD ITS LIFESPAN BE MUCH LONGER THAN ITS CARBON-BASED ANALOGUES?

Bernstein — The replicating mineral that I described earlier would be living very, very slowly on ’s surface.  But maybe somewhere very much hotter, its lifespan would be shorter.  That’s because presumably lifespan is connected to the pace of your chemistry, which depends on temperature.

Dorminey — FINALLY, WHAT WOULD ENDANGER NON-CARBON-BASED LIFE?

Bernstein — Physical harm for sure.  Presumably you could take a jackhammer to it?

But our biochemistry would not be pathogens to it; we could not “infect” them as was the case in “War of the Worlds.”

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Pirouette
1.5 / 5 (16) Dec 21, 2011
Very interesting interview. It was more matter-of-fact about the possibility of silicon-based life, rather than the more anthropocentric denial that "if it ain't carbon-based, it ain't alive". . . .which takes a very narrow minded view and illustrates true bias on things yet unknown.
I would like to see an interview with an astrochemist together with an astrobiologist.
Carbon- based life is prevalent on Earth only because the Chemistry supports it. The atmosphere, the soil, water, nutrients are all geared to evolve LIFE AS WE KNOW IT. Any life as we DON'T know it can still exist elsewhere whether we want it to or not and whether we like it or not. We are too well ensconced in our little circle of friends and family, strangers and the general world's population and basically, that's ALL we know. It takes an astrobiologist and/or astrochemist to understand that the Sun doesn't revolve around carbon-based life, and that there are more wonders in the Universe to discover and get used to.
roboferret
4.3 / 5 (11) Dec 21, 2011
Why is Dorminey shouting? I've now got a mental image of an interview about exobiology being held in an open-doored helicopter, Black Hawk style:

Dorminey - IS THE CRUX OF THE PROBLEM THAT SILICON-BASED LIFE WOULD BE SO SLOWLY REPLICATING THAT IT COULD NEVER MAKE IT IN A DYNAMIC UNIVERSE?

Bernstein - RPG! WE'VE BEEN HIT! BRACE FOR IMPACT! SORRY WHAT WAS THE QUESTION AGAIN?
Pirouette
1.7 / 5 (17) Dec 21, 2011
LOL. . . .come on now. . .that's only to differentiate Dorminey's q from Bernstein's a. Otherwise, the two might be confusing to some reader who can't comprehend the differences between interviewer and interviewee.
:)
Nanobanano
1.6 / 5 (14) Dec 21, 2011
All caps isn't "shouting".

Only in the internet age has that somehow become viewed as being "rude".

All caps is just another form of emphasis or grouping, and it happens to be much easier on the eyes than stupid crap like italics.
rawa1
1.5 / 5 (8) Dec 21, 2011
The silicon chemistry is very poor with compare to carbon chemistry. There is absolutely no reason, why the highest complexity inside the observable Universe should choose just another elements and/or the range of conditions, which don't lead to this complexity (the richest spectra, phase transitions, compound stability etc...)
Pirouette
1.5 / 5 (15) Dec 21, 2011
See that. . .rawa1 has just illustrated the human frailty of anthropocentrist (sp) bias due to his possible disbelief and/or disrespect of another set of chemical combinations, along with the right set of environmental factors that combined could be the catalyst for a new life form that may also have started out as a one-celled organism and evolved.
The fact that another 2 elements have recently been added to the Table of Elements should have humbled researchers with the realization that they do NOT know everything there is to know yet. Most people can see the biodiversity on our own planet, albeit carbon-based, and are able to accept and even celebrate the differences between species. But a whole other chemical makeup of a silicon-based life form, even if it resembles an octopus, would be less likely deemed to be real. Acceptance of a new concept is difficult for some, and impossible for others.
FrankHerbert
3.1 / 5 (127) Dec 21, 2011
The fact that another 2 elements have recently been added to the Table of Elements should have humbled researchers with the realization that they do NOT know everything there is to know yet.


The periodic table PREDICTS those elements, which were artificially created in a lab years after they were PREDICTED. You obviously miss the entire concept of the periodic table if you think you made a valid point there.

Those elements were created by the scientists you claim believed they didn't exist. Maybe they didn't believe they existed until you know, THEY CREATED THEM.

Also, if you would have paid attention during that episode of Star Trek that posits silicon based life, they say it'd have to occur on a planet totally devoid of carbon. Sorry this is not Mars or any planet yet known.

Is it possible that there is non-carbon based life? Sure. Has any been observed in even the most fleeting manner? No. No. No.

Let me pontificate for pages about ununquadium based life. Know-it-alls!!!
Pirouette
1.5 / 5 (15) Dec 21, 2011
Nano says:
All caps isn't "shouting".

Only in the internet age has that somehow become viewed as being "rude".

All caps is just another form of emphasis or grouping, and it happens to be much easier on the eyes than stupid crap like italics.


I agree that's it's for emphasis. . .particularly for those who can't read and comprehend easy sentences and paragraphs and who consistently MISQUOTE other people because of that lack of comprehension skills. . .I use Caps often to emphasize. . .it usually works, except for certain people who can't even comprehend that. LOL
FrankHerbert
3 / 5 (122) Dec 21, 2011
So when you type an entire post in all caps, you're just emphasizing it, right?

This topic: http://www.physor...ion.html
provides a few good examples of Pirouette's all caps nonsense.

Please don't MISQUOTE other people Pirouette.
Pirouette
1.7 / 5 (18) Dec 21, 2011
FrankHerbert
3 / 5 (117) Dec 21, 2011
Well it seems like Pirouette has made his own puppet account for voting people down and himself up. I'm assuming he thinks because he suspects me of it he must emulate me.

Well he's not emulating me, just his projection of himself onto me.

Very sad.
http://www.physor...rouette/

Also Moderators, please remove the above post by Pirouette for "CROSS POSTING" or maybe "OFF TOPIC". Up to you guys :)
hcl
3 / 5 (2) Dec 22, 2011
Another sign to look for is unnatural patterns of free energy flow. Life and energy go together.

Side note:
I also gather then, that silicon-based life would have more weight with less functionality? Thus any silicon-based life, if at all possible, would live in restrictive niches - extremophiles of sorts. Since no planet is likely free of carbon (a chemist would have to tell us which offers the more efficient energy pathway), a silicon-based life is unlikely to exist as dominant life form (and thus no intelligent silicon-based life - or far less likely.)
rawa1
1.4 / 5 (9) Dec 22, 2011
..rawa1 has just illustrated the human frailty of anthropocentrist (sp) bias due to his possible disbelief and/or disrespect of another set of chemical combinations..
My theory of life formation is even based on the path of maximal space-time complexity.
http://aetherwave...ife.html
If you want to consider the spontaneous life formation, they physics should help as much as possible to the chemistry. For example, IMO the life evolved at the coastal areas instead of surface of ocean, because just the interface of three phases provides the maximal complexity required. IMO there is nothing anthropocentric on this view.

The silicon life could evolve only under circumstances, when its chemistry would become richer, than the carbon chemistry, but I cannot imagine such a situation.
MarkyMark
4 / 5 (4) Dec 22, 2011
http://www.physor...lem.html

I try and support you but i keep on remembering that you belive giant transparent aliens and Dune worms live on Mars.
Pirouette
1.2 / 5 (18) Dec 22, 2011
http://www.physor...lem.html

I try and support you but i keep on remembering that you belive giant transparent aliens and Dune worms live on Mars.


They do. . . .but it takes a special announcement from the powers that be that they are there, for people like you to accept anything so alien and anti-anthropocentric as life forms on another world that are not carbon-based like yourself. It's a common thing. If you heard it from CNN or NBC. . .even NPR. . .you probably would be more likely to accept it. But it's not going to be announced. . .too much funding is at stake each year. We're used to it. No big deal.
Pirouette
1.3 / 5 (16) Dec 22, 2011
Another sign to look for is unnatural patterns of free energy flow. Life and energy go together.

Side note:
I also gather then, that silicon-based life would have more weight with less functionality? Thus any silicon-based life, if at all possible, would live in restrictive niches - extremophiles of sorts. Since no planet is likely free of carbon (a chemist would have to tell us which offers the more efficient energy pathway), a silicon-based life is unlikely to exist as dominant life form (and thus no intelligent silicon-based life - or far less likely.)

You have to understand that silicon-based means just that. Silicon BASED. But there would have to be other elements involved and combinations thereof to give the life form mobility, and possibility of intelligence. For us, carbon in itself does not give us mobility and intelligence since it's only ONE element like coke, charcoal, etc.
Pirouette
1.3 / 5 (15) Dec 22, 2011
But if you add many other elements and combinations thereof, plus whatever else it is that makes us human, well, here we are. . . .we exist. And some us are scaaaared of what any other life forms on an exoplanet represent. They would represent the fact that we're not so special after all.
Noumenon
3.1 / 5 (106) Dec 22, 2011
Well it seems like Pirouette has made his own puppet account for voting people down and himself up. I'm assuming he thinks because he suspects me of it he must emulate me.

Well he's not emulating me, just his projection of himself onto me.

Very sad.
http://www.physor...rouette/

Also Moderators, please remove the above post by Pirouette for "CROSS POSTING" or maybe "OFF TOPIC". Up to you guys :)


What's the problem, Frank? You can dish it out but can't take the same directed at you? EVERYONE knows you have at least 10 screen names and rate yourself 5's. K. You're not fooling anyone,... it is clear by examining your profile. Grow up. You're are a hypocrite and are dishonest, and should have been banned long ago.

antialias_physorg
3.7 / 5 (9) Dec 22, 2011
HOW WOULD YOU LOOK FOR SILICON-BASED LIFE HERE ON EARTH?

Just like you look for any other life. Look for something that actively stays in a state not compatible with entropy when put in a new environment (at the expense of increasing entropy elsewhere. Life, of course, doesn't violate entropy - it just shifts the local balance).

Thus any silicon-based life, if at all possible, would live in restrictive niches

That really depends on what you term a 'restrictive niche'. If they live deep underground then the volume where such life could be possible would be enormous (3D) compared to the small biofilm (2D) that represents our type of life on a planetary surface.
Compared to that carbon based life would exist in a (very) restrictive niche.
FrankHerbert
2.9 / 5 (118) Dec 22, 2011
What's the problem, Frank? You can dish it out but can't take the same directed at you? EVERYONE knows you have at least 10 screen names and rate yourself 5's. K. You're not fooling anyone,... it is clear by examining your profile. Grow up. You're are a hypocrite and are dishonest, and should have been banned long ago.


No, I do not engage in such things. You are libeling me. Stop it.

Now let's pretend it isn't you making all those accounts in an attempt to make me look bad. Let's pretend it's neither of us and you are honestly convinced it is me.

You are a hypocrite for supporting Pirouette in the same behavior you stalk me around this site for supposedly engaging in.

You are pathetic. How about calling him out on his claim that we just aren't looking for silicon-based life ON EARTH hard enough. You really think that is reasonable?

Keep supporting your drooling buddy there.

Pirouette2 is also voting you up a bit. Sure that isn't you?

You're pathetic and dishonest. Go away
Noumenon
3.1 / 5 (109) Dec 22, 2011
Should I pretend you never sent me PM's admitting as much?

Dude you really have a mental disorder. You make for a perfect liberal thinker, dishonest, falsification of reality.
FrankHerbert
2.9 / 5 (118) Dec 22, 2011
Dude you really have a mental disorder. You make for a perfect liberal thinker, dishonest, falsification of reality.


Right, someone that disagrees with you must fit neatly into some "other" group, possess a mental disorder, and have 10 accounts to explain your abysmal ratings on this site.

I never sent you a PM stating anything of the sort. I've sent you PMs before because you're a little whiner that gets all bent out of shape over it. I called you a racist once over a PM because you called me a "GODDAMN N----R LOVER" over PM.

You're angry someone called you out on some horribly racist BS you said. The most recent example would be your reinstatement of poll tests via the repeal of the Voting Rights Act. You, admittedly, did not say you wanted to repeal the Voting Rights Act, but hey, that's a must if you want poll tests.

You're a pitiful racist that is mad you got called out on it.

Go away.
Noumenon
2.7 / 5 (137) Dec 22, 2011
The answer is that Pirouette does not continuously rate me 1's indiscriminately, .. you do.

What is unfortunate is that other than your maturity level and dishonesty, I don't find many of your post unreasonable.

In the quantum thread you backed up GhostOfOtto even though his position was obviously absurd and irrelevant,.. only to "be against me" and add another voice against me, like grizled, you do not explain where I'm wrong, even though I request this,.. because you are disinterested in the topic apart from effecting negative posts against me. This just makes you look bad.

I don't on the other hand feign support of other posters wrong conclusions just to be against you.
panorama
5 / 5 (6) Dec 22, 2011
This argument is very carbon-based.
Noumenon
2.6 / 5 (137) Dec 22, 2011
I called you a racist once over a PM because you called me a "GODDAMN N----R LOVER" over PM.


This is an outright lie. You've tried this same tactic recently against Pirouette.

I encourage the moderators to request my password which I will provide to them so they can see that FrankHerbert is a slanderer and should be immediately banned.
rawa1
3 / 5 (8) Dec 22, 2011
Noumenon, FrankHerbert - I'm starting to understand, what the silicon based form of life actually is... 8-)
Pirouette
1.2 / 5 (45) Dec 22, 2011
See that? rawa1 can see right through FrankHerbivore

Actually, I have only one user name, and that's Pirouette. My girlfriend though up that name when she joined Physorg. But I convinced her to let ME use the name instead. After she read Frankfart's posts, she told me that he is one very insane and insecure character. I concurred.
Pirouette
1.1 / 5 (44) Dec 22, 2011
Yes. . .FrankHerbfart tried to put the racist label on ME in another earlier thread. He said that I had sent him a PM saying that he was a niggah. . .and at that point, his accomplice Howhot tried to FALSELY ACCUSE ME of being a racist, then threatened to get her brother's friends to use her "mouthwash" on me. I then invited Hothot and FrankH to come meet me and my Sicilian family so we could all party together. Well, Howhot basically REFUSED to come and meet me and my family, I even said that he/she could bring her brothers and his friends. I got no answer to my invitation. That means that Howhot is a bigot, proving that he/she don't like dem dere Sicilianos. I, being a dark-skinned Sicilian, felt highly insulted and withdrew my offer of partying with Howsnot and Frankfart and da brudders. After that, FrankHerbfart started farting around, saying the N word as nigger, over and over again. Everyone saw it and some sent me PMs saying that FrankHerbert is either black or he is a racist.
Pirouette
1.1 / 5 (44) Dec 22, 2011
I asked Noumenon in a PM if he had ever used the word "niggah" on FrankHerbfart. He said that he has NEVER sent a PM to FrankH either, so I knew then that FrankHerbertfart has very serious mental issues, possibly caused by a childhood trauma while he was one of the bullies on the school bus who SNITCHED on a weaker boy and had the driver throw the boy off the bus.
FrankHerbfart compared ME to that little boy that he bullied on the school bus, and I realized that FrankH is always trying to relive his past as a bully by attempting to bully other members of Physorg. HE is a classical case of the bully that lives on in the "adult". It's all in the Psychology books what his mental condition is.
Pirouette
1.1 / 5 (44) Dec 22, 2011
http://en.wikiped...Bullying

http://www.bullyo...rial.htm

http://www.uncomm...lly.html

The above links illustrate how people like FrankHerbert operate with his obvious desire to bully other people into submitting to him.

Now back to the silicon-based alien topic. . . . .
Noumenon
2.6 / 5 (138) Dec 22, 2011
I have sent PhysOrg_Support a PM asking them to review my PM's with FrankHerbert to determine for themselves that FrankHubris is a slanderer.

This is not the first time the troll has charged racism though. Here is a previous PM I sent to him in response at that time.

Frank, grow up and stop with this hypersensitive PC non-sense. The racism charge is just another political fraud of the left. Everytime you falsely charge one of racism, you dilute the significance and meaning of the word and disrespect those that actually suffered from historical racism. The only reason such slander works in politics is because generally people are NOT racists and don't want others to think of them as such.
FrankHerbert
2.9 / 5 (116) Dec 23, 2011
http://en.wikiped...ophrenia

http://www.apa.or...dex.aspx

http://faculty.wa...hiz.html

The above links illustrate how people like Pirouette operate with his obvious desire to bully other people into submitting to his schizophrenic ravings.

Now back to the silicon-based alien topic. . . . .
FrankHerbert
2.9 / 5 (117) Dec 23, 2011
I have sent PhysOrg_Support a PM asking them to review my PM's with FrankHerbert to determine for themselves that FrankHubris is a slanderer.

"If I'm lying God strike me down!"

You know they will never respond because they haven't banned YOU yet. I know I'm not the only person who has complained directly to the moderators about your puppet accounts and offensive posts. Your continued posting proves they don't care. You are very dishonest.

This is not the first time the troll has charged racism though. Here is a previous PM I sent to him in response at that time.

You never sent me that PM. However you did send me this one.

My ratings of you for now on will be purely reactionary and based on yours of me. I have the advantage because I don't care about ratings at a site dominated by clueless immature n----r lovers and progressive radicals naive about the real world as it is. Your ideology is not reality and is quit irrelevant.

The censoring is mine :(
FrankHerbert
2.9 / 5 (116) Dec 23, 2011
Here's another after asking him why he was (is) rating all my posts 1:
Dear F----t,

The more you cry the more ones you will get. That is all.

Your Lord and Savior,

Noumenon

Once again the censoring is mine :(

Noumenon is quite the self-loather to rail all day against behavior he exhibits... all day.
Pirouette
1.2 / 5 (45) Dec 23, 2011
Noumenon says:

What's the problem, Frank? You can dish it out but can't take the same directed at you? EVERYONE knows you have at least 10 screen names and rate yourself 5's. K. You're not fooling anyone,... it is clear by examining your profile. Grow up. You're are a hypocrite and are dishonest, and should have been banned long ago.
and then FrankHerbert says:


Pirouette2 is also voting you up a bit. Sure that isn't you?

You're pathetic and dishonest. Go away


That's strange. . .there is NO PIROUETTE2 in this thread or in any other thread that I've been to,
Since I ONLY HAVE one user name, and that is PIROUETTE, who is this #2 that is so similar to MY name? I think that only FrankHerbert would know the answer to that. It must be one of his sockpuppets that he uses to downgrade other peoples' scores or to upgrade his own. Now why would FrankHerbert do a thing like that, AND HOW WOULD HE KNOW ABOUT A PIROUETTE2 UPGRADING OR DOWNGRADING SCORES UNLESS it is HIM.
Pirouette
1.3 / 5 (47) Dec 23, 2011
and then FrankHerbert says:

"Pirouette2 is also voting you up a bit. Sure that isn't you?

You're pathetic and dishonest. Go away"

THIS IS VERY VERY STRANGE. In order to know who is voting up or down, it would have to be the owner of that user name that is doing the up or down votes. Now I KNOW that the user name PIROUETTE2 is definitely NOT from Noumenon, therefore it must belong to FRANKHERBERT, since he is the one who knows all about what the name is doing.
This link below is a true description of FrankHerbert as a "serial bully" who also tries to TWIST everything around to make it looks HE is innocent of wrongdoing in the threads and sending nasty PMs to members and telling lies about them.

http://www.bullyo...rial.htm

I hope everyone reads the link's page. It describes FrankHerbert perfectly.
I don't know if there are any others on Physorg who are like him, but I certainly hope not.
I like the idea of silicon-based aliens on Mars. That is so cool.
Noumenon
2.6 / 5 (137) Dec 23, 2011
Frank, You are a pathetic liar and slanderer. I sent you both and you edited the 2nd one to include that racist comment, that I never made.

You accused Pirouette of making that same exact remark,... you're so stupid that you can't even lie well.

Here is a screen capture of those two PM's; Again the Mod's have permission to review all PM's between FrankHerbert and me. You are simply lucky that they have better things to do,.. for now.

http://i859.photo...FHPM.jpg
Noumenon
3.1 / 5 (106) Dec 23, 2011
Pirouette2 is also voting you up a bit. Sure that isn't you? - FrankHubris


LOL, just recently. Obviously YOU did that so you could make that claim. Seriously, I thought you were at least in your 30's,.. how old are you? Are you like 17?

You accuse others of the exact thing you are doing. You are just like a typical leftist political hack. I'm thinking you may work for the Huffington Post.

Btw, the above link of a screen capture of my PM's with you, show clearly a number of things,

1) You admit to having multiple screen names, even calling me "fagamenon".

2) You slanderously edited my pm by included a racist comment.

3) You did receive the PM from me above, where I scolded you on the abuse of the charge of racism.
Noumenon
2.6 / 5 (137) Dec 23, 2011
This is not the first time the troll has charged racism though. Here is a previous PM I sent to him in response at that time.... - Noumenon


You never sent me that PM..... - FrankHerbert


Really, here is a link to another thread with a similar discussion nearly three months ago,....

http://www.physor...ogy.html

Again, you attempt to hang the racism charge around peoples neck. Readers can decide for themselves at this point.
Noumenon
2.6 / 5 (137) Dec 23, 2011
,... The above link includes the exact PM quote that you say you never received from me!!
FrankHerbert
2.9 / 5 (118) Dec 23, 2011
AND HOW WOULD HE KNOW ABOUT A PIROUETTE2 UPGRADING OR DOWNGRADING SCORES

Are your deductive reasoning abilities really that bad? I guess you thought no one would notice and this is your ace in the hole? Like all your pathetic arguments?

Anyone is free to look at your profile http://www.physor...activity and see the direct 5's you've received, and if they are obscured through other votes, it's fairly obvious when you have a '3' with Me, Otto, someone reasonable listed and Pirouette2 listed, you really think that's privy knowledge that Pirouette2 gave you a 5?

You think everyone is as stupid as you, huh?

@Noumenon
I thought you were at least in your 30's,.. how old are you?

I thought 30-year-olds couldn't be liberal?! Your models suck as much as your opinions.
Really, here is a link...

That's YOUR quote of a pm YOU said YOU sent. I never received that message because you made it up back then. Like you make puppet accounts for later.
Pirouette
1.8 / 5 (16) Dec 23, 2011

http://www.bullyo...rial.htm

I posted this link already further up, but I think it's very pertinent to this problem of FrankHerbert's behavior and false accusations in the threads in which he encounters me, Noumenon and several other members. For quite a while, I could not understand why anyone could BE that way to total strangers on an internet website. . . .until I googled the words, ADULT BULLY and found many websites explaining that mental condition and explaining how to avoid such people. It describes that person who is bent on verbally attacking me and several others. . . by misquoting my comments and the comments of others, then using vulgarisms without provocation, and giving me all ONES as a score. I've said before that I don't understand this obvious obsession FrankHerbert has with increasing his scores dishonestly, but I believe that it is related to his mental illness. I'm sure he will twist this around and remove his name and replace it with mine. LOL
FrankHerbert
2.9 / 5 (118) Dec 23, 2011
I know once Pirouette hooks onto an idea and thinks it's clever (even when it is quite the opposite) he won't let it go and will begin typing in all caps about being MISQUOTED and people being fartheads and such.

Here is an example of a real post where I'll show how easily it is to see Pirouette2 is Pirouette giving himself 5s and it seems Noumenon 5s on every post.

Why silicon-based aliens would rather eat our cities than us: Thoughts on non-carbon astrobiology December 23, 2011, 7:01 am 3.7 Noumenon | orac | Pirouette2 |


Okay a score or 3.7 with Noumenon and orac rating in addition to Pirouette2. Noumenon always gives Pirouette 5s because he thinks I go around giving him 1s for no reason. It's some reactionary BS. I have no idea who orac is but he frequently gives a lot of people ones.

So (5 Noumenon 1 orac Pirouette2) = 3.66667 (3.7 is rounded up)

Pirouette2 = 5

This isn't hard.

I demand apologies from both of your for libeling me on this forum repeatedly.
Noumenon
2.7 / 5 (138) Dec 23, 2011
The above link is a screen capture image of my PM page which clearly shows that message. If it's on my PM page, it's on yours given the PM system. You received it and you read it. Facts.

You rated 5's with the Pirouette2 screen name recently, frank, including Otto because I recently debated him, ....just so you could claim it is mine or Pirouette, as now you are doing. You are not clever.
Noumenon
3.1 / 5 (108) Dec 23, 2011
Here it is again, Frank you liar,..

http://i859.photo...FHPM.jpg
FrankHerbert
2.9 / 5 (117) Dec 23, 2011
You're such a dishonest piece of crap Noumenon.

Here is the ACTUAL message you sent me. Seems like you've learned how to use photoshop...

http://i41.tinypi...lf0i.png

Are you really that pathetic you have to forge PMs after your whole "I'M SENDING MY PASSWORD TO THE PHYSORG MODS SO THEY CAN STRAIGHTEN THIS OUT" bs. It's like an atheist screaming "GOD STRIKE ME DOWN!" Totally dishonest. Like your entire being.

I'm not getting into a match of images. It's stupid. You're behavior on this site is stupid. You are stupid for defending Pirouette just because you don't like me.

This will be the last image I post in response to any of your libeling. I doubt I'll need to. It speaks for itself.
Pirouette2
1 / 5 (10) Dec 23, 2011
.
FrankHerbert
2.9 / 5 (116) Dec 23, 2011
LOL, you forget to switch names again Pirouette?

Just in case there is any doubt, anyone who cares should be aware of how much Pirouette dislikes Howhot and Deepsand because they occasionally agree with me about the either insanity or banality depending on the topic of Pirouette's posts.

http://www.physor...activity
http://www.physor...activity

Here's Otto's which Noumenon erroneously claims that I supposedly used Pirouette2 to give Otto's 5s because he was arguing with Noumenon.

http://www.physor...activity

Noumenon is quite good at projection, isn't he?
Noumenon
2.6 / 5 (137) Dec 23, 2011
Predicable, Except you suck at photoshop, as anyone cam see by zooming in.

I thought you would scramble to photoshop something. I just thought there was a chance you didn't have the software.

The difference, Frank, is that there is no God, ...but there ARE moderators and THEY CAN ABSOLUTELY determine who the slanderer is. I'll wait....

This will be the last image I post in response to any of your libeling. I doubt I'll need to. It speaks for itself.


Lets agree on ONE thing at least, you don't post in response to me, nor rate me, and I will return the favour. How about it?

As I already said, YOU purposely rated GhostOfOtto all 1's so you can make the claim Pirouette2 is not you.
FrankHerbert
2.9 / 5 (116) Dec 23, 2011
Lets agree on ONE thing at least, you don't post in response to me, nor rate me, and I will return the favour. How about it?


I thought you didn't care about the ratings?

I can agree that if you refrain from being a hypocrite, I will refrain from engaging in the same just to spite you. I'm guessing your head is so far up your own @ss though you likely lack the self-awareness to actually admit any hypocritical behavior on your part.

Take Pirouette or Oliver to task and I might believe you. I might even gang up on Vendicar with you.

But I don't see it happening.

As I already said, YOU purposely rated GhostOfOtto all 1's so you can make the claim Pirouette2 is not you.

And Howhot and Deepsand and Myself and voted you and Pirouette up. Nah, I don't have the time for this BS. Maybe check the retired schizo with a government pension. He's likely your culprit.
Noumenon
3.1 / 5 (109) Dec 23, 2011
Really, i'm not sure who Pirouette2 IS, and I don't care,... the other eight or so are yours. But what is certain is that you slandered ME by implying that I made that racist comment via PM, which is categorically false.

I will continue to bug the moderators to examine our PM's to ban the slanderer.

I don't care about meaningless ratings now because of trolls like you and the Orac bot. My rating was 3.5 until you started applying 1's five at a time. I have positive ratings at the PhysForum, where an idiot like you wouldn't last a day.
Pirouette2
1 / 5 (13) Dec 23, 2011
Frankherbfart is MISQUOTING PEOPLE THROUGH PICTURE NOW!. . .WHAT A JERK!

I invited him to party with my sicilian family and he wouldn't and must be a racist!. . .this is why he keeps callin us racists!

http://www.bullyo...rial.htm

Frankherbfart is just a ADULT BULLY that won'ts top fartin around on this site. IM TIRED OF IT!. . .BAN HIM!
FrankHerbert
2.9 / 5 (117) Dec 23, 2011
Frankherbfart is MISQUOTING PEOPLE THROUGH PICTURE NOW!. . .WHAT A JERK!

I invited him to party with my sicilian family and he wouldn't and must be a racist!. . .this is why he keeps callin us racists!

http://www.bullyo...rial.htm

Frankherbfart is just a ADULT BULLY that won'ts top fartin around on this site. IM TIRED OF IT!. . .BAN HIM!


LMAO just in case Pirouette tries to edit it out again. You are really awful at this whole sockpuppet business, aren't you Pirouette?
FrankHerbert
2.9 / 5 (117) Dec 23, 2011
@Noumenon
Okay, so you aren't willing to admit any hypocrisy.

Do you understand the difference between slander and libel?

Predicable, Except you suck at photoshop, as anyone cam see by zooming in.


Also, do you care to say what in the image I provide proves it is altered upon zooming in? I wouldn't know because I didn't alter it and have little photoshop experience. Care to make a more specific claim or do you just want people like Pirouette to "see things" like they always do. I'm sure if Pirouette can find gelatinous romans on Mars he could easily find SOMETHING in there. Like "errant pixels" and other BS teabaggers claim to find in the President's long form birth certificate

What about your "image". It doesn't even look like you took a screenshot of a web-browser. It looks like you edited the HTML to say what you wanted and just had a web editor render the page, hence the lack of frames.

Anyway, like I said, my image speaks for itself, and Noumenon.
Noumenon
3.1 / 5 (110) Dec 23, 2011
We will let the Moderators and web owners decide further,... as they will see the PM's directly which can not be altered by anyone.

This will be resounding proof who is slandering who and being disruptive,.. so just leave it at that.

I've been posting here for four years and have never run into a troll like you,... other than the Antique troll Vendicar,... but even his childishness is mild in comparison from your new low.

Done.
Pirouette
1.5 / 5 (16) Dec 23, 2011
ROFLOL. . .I have to laugh every time FrankHerbfart announces that I have a phantom government pension. You don't get a government pension for only 2 years in the military. Perhaps FrankHerbertfart was a 4-F and was rejected by the military and has never experienced serving for his country. I doubt that the U.S. is even his country. He is most likely a wizened old fart who sits in front of his 2 or 3 computers so that he can change to his other user names quickly and using 2 user names simultaneously. I've heard that can be done, though I've never done it since I have only 1 computer. Too bad FrankHerbfart is so insane. Such devious behavior is sickening.
Ethelred
3.2 / 5 (11) Dec 24, 2011
Frankherbfart is just a ADULT BULLY that won'ts top fartin around on this site. IM TIRED OF IT!. . .BAN HIM!
The idiot running that turd brained sockpuppet is either writing exactly like pirouette or it is pirouette. Either way if it continues there will be a response in kind.

Morons like that don't understand restraint of civil behavior and Pirouette, with or without the 2, is clearly that sort of maroon. The last asshole that tried to sockpuppet me to this degree was Zephir and even he isn't stupid enough to do it anymore.

True the Dancer with Batshit for brains is stupid enough to keep it up but even after two days of this idiocy I still have the same rating without doing anything in response.

Go ahead moron. Keep it up. Even your ranking can get lower.

Ethelred
Ethelred
3.3 / 5 (14) Dec 24, 2011
Here it is again, Frank you liar,..
OK then Pirouette could be FH's sockpuppet. However they have both been batshit insane lately and I am quite willing to report them both on every post.

Noumenon, while I think you are frequently full of shit it isn't batshit. Those two simply need to go.

Moderators

Please do your bleeding job. Things have gotten completely due to YOUR incompetence. Hire somebody with experience or at least authorize a few sub-moderators like most popular sites do.

After all this time you guys don't have a clue as to how run a forum where there are controversial discussions.

IF YOU CAN'T DO IT DELEGATE.

What is so bleeding difficult about it?

Here are links to sites where the owners don't have their heads stuffed or maybe you can only wring your hands.

http://www.scalzi...hatever/
http://apolyton.net/forum.php
http://forum.videohelp.com/

All are vastly superior to Physorg on this.

Ethelred
Ethelred
3.2 / 5 (11) Dec 24, 2011
Dude you really have a mental disorder. You make for a perfect liberal thinker, dishonest, falsification of reality.
Oops. Sorry I said the shit wasn't batshit. That sure looks like a standard batshit insane RightWingNutRetainerClip remark.

The lot of you deserve each other.

The rest of us don't. Don't go away mad.

Just go away.

Ethelred
bluehigh
2.4 / 5 (17) Dec 24, 2011
I might even gang up on Vendicar with you.
- some sockpuppet.

This I've got to see. As much as I find Vendi inflexibly opinionated at times, he is quite capable of ripping most of you to intellectual shreds. Please go ahead, show how dumb you can be .. poke a sleeping bear with a stick.

How about we all chill in 2012 and use this resource in a way that reflects your cognitive capacity. I will try harder to be reasonable and positive. Above all lets be tolerant and invoke a sense of humour without condescension .. anyone else want to start a new year with a good feeling?

Please.

Best thoughts to all for Xmas and hopefully a great 2012 here at Physorg.

bluehigh
2.4 / 5 (19) Dec 24, 2011
.. and thanks to the writers and staff at Physorg for your patience and tolerance this year. Best wishes for Xmas and the New Year.

Noumenon
2.6 / 5 (136) Dec 24, 2011
@FrankHerbert, If the mods don't respond, I could give Ethelred my password to examine my PM's with you, to see there is zero racist comments and that admitted to multiple screen names, and photoshopped your PM page out of desperation.

Ethelred doesn't agree wih me on anything, but he is honest. Hmmm, or maybe you can just retract your slander, now.
Noumenon
2.6 / 5 (136) Dec 24, 2011
OK then Pirouette could be FH's sockpuppet.

No, Pirouette2 might be FrankHerbert, Pirouette is not. Pirouette2 has started suspiciously massive rating campaign opposite to what FankHerbert would do normally, in order to convince us he doesn't have multiple screen names.
Nanobanano
2.6 / 5 (11) Dec 24, 2011
How many sociopaths are on this thread now?

*Starts counting...*
Pirouette
1.1 / 5 (43) Dec 24, 2011
Pirouette is my ONLY user name, as I have already said many times. And I would like to know WHY IS FRANKHERBERT CHECKING ON MY SCORES. I NEVER EVEN CHECK ON MY OWN SCORES SINCE I WAS NOT INTERESTED IN WHO GIVES ME WHATEVER SCORE. It's all silly anyway.
However, if there's a million dollar prize, I might get interested. :)
Pirouette
1.2 / 5 (45) Dec 24, 2011
So far, I have 49 PMs from FrankHerbertfart and over 6 PMs from 6 of his sockpuppets, none of which I have bothered to open or answer.
Oh yeah. . .I did open ONE of them, and in it FrankHerbertfart said, "the angle of the dangle is equal to the square root of the mass of the ass".
And I thought to myself. . wait a minute, what the hell does that MEAN? Didn't feel like enquiring about it further, since I have better things to do.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.8 / 5 (19) Dec 24, 2011
The fact that another 2 elements have recently been added to the Table of Elements should have humbled researchers with the realization that they do NOT know everything there is to know yet.
Your appalling ignorance is what causes the above mayhem. You continue to insist on displaying it, people show you how lacking you are, you get mad, and mayhem ensues.

"keeping healthy and fit mentally" - from your profile. You are losing this battle. GET LOST.
Pirouette
1.1 / 5 (42) Dec 24, 2011
LOL.....I only have ONE user name and that's the one everyone can see to the left of this post.
I have NEVER bothered to respond to FH's response to MY post regarding the 2 elements. If he can't criticize my WHOLE comment with a valid criticism, he will cherry-pick the least important sentence to display how smart he is at catching a mistake by a non-scientist. All the rest of the time, he MISQUOTES my easy sentences and paragraphs, and then I have to point out to him that he misquoted me.
Evidently, FrankH hates to be corrected and will chase down those who corrected him and waits until his critic says something that FrankH doesn't like, then he pounces and tells lies about the person he wants to victimize, as though it's the end of the world if he doesn't get his revenge.
FrankHerbertfart is described perfectly in this link:

http://www.bullyo...rial.htm

He is a "serial bully" and has a new accomplice in TheGhostofOtto1923
Noumenon
Dec 24, 2011
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
Pirouette
1.7 / 5 (15) Dec 24, 2011
How sad that TheGhostoOtto1923 also feels the need to take a sentence out of my profile and leave out the rest of it. The sentence is this: ""keeping healthy and fit mentally and physically""
Obviously, TheGhost is NOT concerned about HIS OWN mental health, only with non-scientists who wish to learn from other Physorg members, such as Noumenon, ryggesogn2, bluehigh, Ethelred, Nerdyguy and many others who are truly knowledgeable about science. This seems to perturb Ghost for some reason. Perhaps he is jealous of Noumenon, Ethelred, bluehigh and all the rest because they have bested him in an argument in some thread. TheGhost appears to be a "control freak" for some reason. Perhaps he regards Physorg as his own property? Yes, that may be the reason why he insists that I leave Physorg when I'm learning so much.
What a shame that his behavior is reflecting so badly on Physorg and the other members other than FrankHerbert.
Noumenon
2.7 / 5 (139) Dec 24, 2011
The fact that another 2 elements have recently been added to the Table of Elements should have humbled researchers with the realization that they do NOT know everything there is to know yet.
Your appalling ignorance is what causes the above mayhem. You continue to insist on displaying it, people show you how lacking you are, you get mad, and mayhem ensues.

"keeping healthy and fit mentally" - from your profile. You are losing this battle. GET LOST.


How is that helpful in reducing mayhem? You seem to be using the site as an insult competition. Just provide a counter argument, and end it.
hcl
3.4 / 5 (5) Dec 24, 2011
"the angle of the dangle is equal to the square root of the mass of the ass".


He means he likes big butts and does not lie...(sorry, couldn't help but throw that Sir Mix-A-Lot lyric in)... just simplifying the jargon... raters, please don't give this comment a '1', LOL.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.8 / 5 (21) Dec 24, 2011
other Physorg members
Members? You mean this is a club?
such as Noumenon, ryggesogn2, bluehigh, Ethelred, Nerdyguy and many others who are truly knowledgeable about science.
Right.. Did you miss what ET said about you?
OK then Pirouette could be FH's sockpuppet. However they have both been batshit insane lately and I am quite willing to report them both on every post.

Noumenon, while I think you are frequently full of shit it isn't batshit. Those two simply need to go.
-The others you mentioned have all expressed similar sentiment.
How is that helpful in reducing mayhem? ... Just provide a counter argument, and end it.
Naw frank already did. I was addressing the root of the problem.
You seem to be using the site as an insult competition.
-And you are defending this toadstool. How poignant. You called otto an ignorant simpleton as I recall just because I chopped your philostoff up like a doily? Thats ok big boy. I understand.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.8 / 5 (20) Dec 24, 2011
LOL.....I only have ONE user name and that's the one everyone can see to the left of this post.
Yes you see, because in her mind her and her boyfriend are 2 different people who just happen to share the same nick. 'Honey they're abusing me again!' 'Why those cocksuckers [belch][scratch]. Here - gimme the keyboard.' 'Kick a hole in em honey. Type away - I'm not looking I'm not looking'

Piro tried the sockpuppet thing a few days ago with CAM but was uncovered. So the brainteam invented piro2 replete with plausible deniability. HOW PATHETIC.
Pirouette
1.2 / 5 (44) Dec 24, 2011
Nou. . .I doubt that FH or Ghost could provide a counter argument on the topic of this thread because it is doubtful that they know anything about the topic. FrankHerbert posts my girlfriend's website in threads, expecting that everyone will laugh at it. But the only ones laughing are FrankHerbert, Ghost, and Vendicartoon. Almost everyone else seems to be willing to give the topic the benefit of the doubt, et al, until more data on silicon-based aliens is provided before they will make a determination. And THAT IS the correct way to find out the truth.
My group and I have studied the NASA images from the HiRise camera, and have come to the conclusion that certain images are NOT all geology, but are living organisms that don't appear to be carbon-based. All we have are the images, nothing more, but those images are going against anthropocentric thought of humans and other Earth creatures being the only life forms in the solar system. . .maybe even the Universe. We think that is wrong.
Pirouette
1.6 / 5 (13) Dec 24, 2011
hcl says:
"the angle of the dangle is equal to the square root of the mass of the ass".


He means he likes big butts and does not lie...(sorry, couldn't help but throw that Sir Mix-A-Lot lyric in)... just simplifying the jargon... raters, please don't give this comment a '1', LOL.


LOL. . .I'm giving you FIVE for that, hcl. . . .hehehehe. . .I like big mamas with a nice. . . .well anyway. . . .maybe you're right, I had no idea what he meant by that. jeeeez
Pirouette
1.2 / 5 (43) Dec 24, 2011
LOL.....I only have ONE user name and that's the one everyone can see to the left of this post.
GhostTard says:

Yes you see, because in her mind her and her boyfriend are 2 different people who just happen to share the same nick. 'Honey they're abusing me again!' 'Why those cocksuckers [belch][scratch]. Here - gimme the keyboard.' 'Kick a hole in em honey. Type away - I'm not looking I'm not looking'

Piro tried the sockpuppet thing a few days ago with CAM but was uncovered. So the brainteam invented piro2 replete with plausible deniability. HOW PATHETIC.


Like I said, I have only ONE user name and ONE computer. I recall seeing the user name CAM in the other thread where Ghost was going nuts again. He said that this "CAM" had just become a member of Physorg and then started berating him/her. I thought that was typical of Ghost and his boyfriend, FrankHerbertfart. . .picking on someone new.
Pirouette
1.2 / 5 (43) Dec 24, 2011
I felt sorry for the new member, but then I thought, maybe this CAM is really FrankHerbert in one of his other sockpuppets. That might be true, or maybe that person was really a new innocent member of Physorg. I included that in my letter to Physorg and am waiting for a reply. Too bad Ghost insists on being an @sshole.
Pirouette
1.2 / 5 (44) Dec 24, 2011

"""Bruce Dorminey IS IT WRONG TO ASSUME THAT LIFE COULD BE BASED ON SOMETHING OTHER THAN CARBON?
Max Bernstein Its important for us to keep an open mind about alien life, lest we come across it and miss it. On the other hand, carbon is much better than any other element in forming the main structures of living things."""

That is such an anthropocentric bias, along with an admonishment to be on the lookout for something unusual, even though carbon-based life (as we know it) is obviously superior to any other chemical combinations for life....but keep searching for aliens anyway, especially on Earth or with SETI.
Pirouette
1.2 / 5 (44) Dec 24, 2011
"""Dorminey SILICON SEEMS TO BE THE MOST POPULAR NON-CARBON BASED CANDIDATE, ARE THERE OTHERS THAT ALSO MIGHT BE FEASIBLE?
Bernstein Its hard to imagine anything that would be more likely that silicon because there is nothing closer to carbon than silicon in terms of its chemistry. Its in the right place on the periodic table, just below carbon. On the face of it, [silicon-based life] doesnt seem too absurd since silicon, like carbon, forms four bonds. CH4 is methane and SiH4 is silane. They are analogous molecules so the basic idea is that perhaps silicon could form an entire parallel chemistry, and even life. But there are tons of problems with this idea."""

And those problems are that carbon - based life is superior chemically - again anthropocentric.
YummyFur
1.2 / 5 (5) Dec 25, 2011
Conventional wisdom has long had it that carbon-based life, so common here on earth, must surely be abundant elsewhere; both in our galaxy and the universe as a whole.

This line of reasoning...

Er what line of reasoning?

must surely be


Oh, I didn't see that bit, marvellously compact.

TheGhostofOtto1923
1.8 / 5 (20) Dec 25, 2011
Now this is interesting... It appears there are 2 people posting in the same post.
Nou. . .I doubt that FH or Ghost could provide a counter argument on the topic of this thread because it is doubtful that they know anything about the topic. FrankHerbert posts my girlfriend's website
-And:
My group and I have studied the NASA images from the HiRise camera, and have come to t
Ha! I once saw a doe brazenly walking through our backyard in daylight. 'That doe is not too smart' I said to myself. The next day I saw it dead by the side of the road.

Cognitive and judgmental defects which are quickly eliminated in the wild are unfortunately left to flourish among humans.
LOL. . .I'm giving you FIVE for that, hcl. . . .hehehehe. . .I like big mamas with a nice. . . .well anyway. . . .maybe you're right, I had no idea what he meant by that. jeeeez
-They're left to degrade our lives with crude, empty suckup comments posted in floods as if this were Facebook. It's not. Go there.
Noumenon
3.1 / 5 (105) Dec 25, 2011
@GhostOfOtto

I can't prove it but I think "Pirouette2" is actually FrankHerbert. I know for a fact that FrankHerbert has multiple screen names, given my PM's, and that he used to rate me multiple 1's, ...five or so at a time. Listed on my profile. He constantly rates me 1's without reading any of my posts. I only rate him 1's in return, as i said i would do via PM.

He is using "Pirouette2" to rate members accordingly as to claim Pirouette = Pirouette2, and obscure the fact that HE has abused the rating system with multiple screen names.

The screen name "Pirouette2" has only ever made 3 posts so far, and IMMEDIATELY after EACH of those three posts, FrankHerbert shows up to claim it is Pirouette. Also, in each thread FrankHerbert is the first to make reference to how "Pirouette2" is rating others.

http://medicalxpr...kin.html

http://www.physor...bon.html
Noumenon
2.6 / 5 (136) Dec 25, 2011
,...Why would Pirouette choose nearly the same screen name, if he didn't want others to think it was him?

On the other hand FH was motivated to choose a similar screen (Pirouette2) to try and convince others it is Pirouette.

FrankHerbert has been rating GhostOfOtto1923 1's and me 5's, and the others accordingly to support the lie,.. while in the past Pirouette has never really engaged in mass rating campaigns.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.8 / 5 (20) Dec 25, 2011
I can't prove it but I think "Pirouette2" is actually FrankHerbert. I know for a fact that FrankHerbert has multiple screen names
1) Perhaps
2) Who cares?
3) This piro person is the problem

A piro2 post:
Frankherbert$hit wishes they would cure his hatred. . .No wonder he sleeps alone!
-Perhaps the denison frank is clever enough to use piro slurs against himself? Whatever.
,...Why would Pirouette choose nearly the same screen name, if he didn't want others to think it was him?
Because piro is incredibly dim.
FrankHerbert has been rating GhostOfOtto1923 1's and me 5's, and the others accordingly to support the lie,..
Im sure he is enjoying himself. And I am sure piro has always attracted assholes like a latrine. If she continues to post lying, brainless, chatty suckup facebook-type posts she will continue to be confronted. She posts nonsense without researching first, she will be ridiculed.

Such is the way of things, yes?
Pirouette
1.3 / 5 (12) Dec 25, 2011
..rawa1 has just illustrated the human frailty of anthropocentrist (sp) bias due to his possible disbelief and/or disrespect of another set of chemical combinations..
My theory of life formation is even based on the path of maximal space-time complexity.
http://aetherwave...ife.html
If you want to consider the spontaneous life formation, they physics should help as much as possible to the chemistry. For example, IMO the life evolved at the coastal areas instead of surface of ocean, because just the interface of three phases provides the maximal complexity required. IMO there is nothing anthropocentric on this view.

The silicon life could evolve only under circumstances, when its chemistry would become richer, than the carbon chemistry, but I cannot imagine such a situation.


@rawa1, I read your "AWT and evolution of life". While interesting, it is still only about Terran functionality and mechanisms.
Pirouette
1.3 / 5 (12) Dec 25, 2011
Your link does not address the functionality and mechanisms of silicon-based life forms. One celled amoebas on the ocean floor has no relation to a whole different chemical makeup of another type of life on another planet. I would like to see some researchers come up with several possibilities as to how a chain of molecules containing silicon could produce life. I am not interested in carbon-based since I am already familiar with what carbon-based life is capable of doing.
Pirouette
1.1 / 5 (45) Dec 25, 2011
@GhostOfOtto

I can't prove it but I think "Pirouette2" is actually FrankHerbert. I know for a fact that FrankHerbert has multiple screen names, given my PM's, and that he used to rate me multiple 1's, ...five or so at a time. Listed on my profile. He constantly rates me 1's without reading any of my posts. I only rate him 1's in return, as i said i would do via PM.

He is using "Pirouette2" to rate members accordingly as to claim Pirouette = Pirouette2, and obscure the fact that HE has abused the rating system with multiple screen names.

The screen name "Pirouette2" has only ever made 3 posts so far, and IMMEDIATELY after EACH of those three posts, FrankHerbert shows up to claim it is Pirouette. Also, in each thread FrankHerbert is the first to make reference to how "Pirouette2" is rating others.

http://medicalxpr...kin.html


@Noumenon. . .I have asked one of the other member about how such a thing can be done.
Pirouette
1.2 / 5 (45) Dec 25, 2011
He told me that FrankHerbert most likely has 2 or more computers that are side by side, and that FH would have all the computers signed into Physorg under several user names. Then all he has to do is move his chair from one computer to the other and make his comments on both his usual name, AND then make another comment on his other user name. He said that advertisers do that also to spam a website or to troll, usually in a comments part of online media. FH must be desperate to prove my comments wrong. But I've noticed that he can't criticize ALL of them.
Pirouette
1.3 / 5 (45) Dec 25, 2011
TheGhost says:
""A piro2 post:
Frankherbert$hit wishes they would cure his hatred. . .No wonder he sleeps alone!
""
LOL. . . .that is too funny. . . .I didn't know that FrankHerbert$hit sleeps alone. That sure wasn't coming from ME.
And who are "they"?
Noumenon
2.7 / 5 (138) Dec 25, 2011
I don't think multiple computers are required, he probably just runs multiple instances of firefox, each of which is logged on,.. or he may log-in / log-off.

Whatever the method, he crossed the line when he said I made those racists comments. Pure slander. I will continue to request the moderators read my PM's to see zero racists remarks.
Pirouette
1.2 / 5 (45) Dec 25, 2011
@Nou. . .on my tour of duty in VietNam, we were out in the jungle a lot. This one little turd, also named Frank, was always sucking up to the CO and whining and complaining loudly about everything. Well, one day, we were near the Mekong and, as usual, he's bitching and moaning about something when one of the lookouts spots a long line of VietCong headed our way. So we all sneaked off and left Frank there because he was making so much noise that we knew they had heard him already. So, Frank gets himself shot up and eventually lost both legs. One of the guys went back for him and put him on a Huey and that's how we got rid of him. But FrankHerbert reminds me of that guy. . .always looking for attention and does a tantrum if he doesn't get it.
Noumenon
2.7 / 5 (137) Dec 25, 2011
So we all sneaked off and left Frank there because he was making so much noise that we knew they had heard him already. So, Frank gets himself shot up and eventually lost both legs. [...]One of the guys went back for him and put him on a Huey and that's how we got rid of him.


Did you turn yourselves in to the military police, for abandonment of another solder?! It's not too late.
Pirouette
1.2 / 5 (44) Dec 25, 2011
And FrankH always insists that I'm getting a military pension because he thinks I'm a career man in the military, for some reason. The guy has a one track mind. You can't get a military pension for just 2 years in. It doesn't happen. And I didn't get any medals. I wasn't wounded. I just serve my 2 years and went home.
Pirouette
1.2 / 5 (43) Dec 25, 2011
Oh yes, the racist comment. . .supposedly about HIM.
LOL. . . .when he did that to me, I KNEW that I had NEVER sent him any PMs. I didn't know him and he seemed like a nutcase, and I always try to avoid people like that. So when he slandered me in that thread and as soon as he did it, Howhot jumps on that and FALSELY accused me of being a bigot and a racist. At first I though she was talking about Rygg2, but then she was repeating MY word so I knew she was talking to me. Then to top it off, later on FrankHerbert starts typing the whole N word as though nobody is going to notice it. That's when I KNEW that he's either a black man, or a Liberal white guy OR just a plain insane person.
Pirouette
1.7 / 5 (12) Dec 25, 2011
So we all sneaked off and left Frank there because he was making so much noise that we knew they had heard him already. So, Frank gets himself shot up and eventually lost both legs. [...]One of the guys went back for him and put him on a Huey and that's how we got rid of him.


Did you turn yourselves in to the military police, for abandonment of another solder?! It's not too late.

We had thought of that, but the fact that he SAW us moving out and stood there like a statue instead of taking cover. . .he could have gotten us ALL killed. There was more of them than there was us. But he was rescued anyway and I guess he's still alive, but I don't know. He could have followed us out of the area, but he chose not to. And if we had to drag him kicking and screaming, we would all have been dead. You can't argue with a maniac. So we left him.
Pirouette
1.6 / 5 (13) Dec 25, 2011
If he had died, then sure, we all would have turned ourselves in, but we did go back for him. The medic said he was gonna make it and that was the main thing.
See what it is. . . .he didn't CARE enough to be one of us. . .he thought he was better than us. There was just 10 of us and he refused to be a part of our group and didn't seem to mind putting all of us in danger. The other 9 guys and I would not have come home if we stopped to talk him into coming with us. The Cong were coming in fast. We had no time even to think.
Noumenon
3.1 / 5 (107) Dec 25, 2011
I have an uncle that was there, and is still effected by the experience, but don't have a clue what it is like in those circumstances, so it's difficult for me to make such judgements,... it just didn't sound right when you said "sneaked off and left Frank there because he was making so much noise".

You are a patriot for your service. While the left wing protested that war, my Uncle volunteered to go.
Pirouette
1.7 / 5 (12) Dec 25, 2011
I said "sneaked off" because we had to leave quietly without making a sound. Even stepping on a twig would have alerted the Cong that we were there. I remember seeing one of the guys behind me waving at Frank to come with us. . .motioning with his hand. . .silent talk. And Frank ignored him. There was nothing else we could do. If he was gonna be belligerent and put up a fight, the Cong would've come at us guns blazing. They were so close, we were all sweating bullets. I couldn't hardly see, the sweat rolling into my eyes. That was the first time I was so scared i couldn't think straight. We all just reacted. And Frank behaved like he was on a Sunday stroll in the park. Maybe he was just too ignorant, but the rest of us knew we had to move out quick or die.
Believe me, if your Uncle saw action like that and managed to stay alive. . .he was very brave, and he was not a fool. We were all brothers, you see. . .didn't matter what color, race or religion. And we all looked out for each othe
Pirouette
2.2 / 5 (11) Dec 25, 2011
Your Uncle is also a Patriot, I admire him for his volunteerism; I was drafted. . . .In another kind of war, if we had been allowed to win, we would have been welcomed home. . . .but VietNam was not like WW2. . .and the war protesters back then are the teachers and college professors of today. They gave comfort to the VietCong with all the anti-war publicity. Toward the end of the war, I realized that it wasn't going well because the Nixon admin wasn't allowing the right strategy. . .so I decided not to re-up even though it was the most exciting and dangerous time of my life.
Last year, I wrote my memoirs of what it was like over there. Maybe you might want to talk your Uncle into writing his memoirs also. This is something that should not be forgotten.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.8 / 5 (19) Dec 25, 2011
I have an uncle that was there, and is still effected by the experience, but don't have a clue what it is like in those circumstances, so it's difficult for me to make such judgements,... it just didn't sound right when you said "sneaked off and left Frank there because he was making so much noise".

You are a patriot for your service. While the left wing protested that war, my Uncle volunteered to go.
I dont suppose you realize this woman is making all of this up? Why are you feeding this nutcase?
He could have followed us out of the area, but he chose not to.
Use your brain nou - leave this sicko alone.
Pirouette
1.3 / 5 (43) Dec 25, 2011
@Ghost. . . .what woman are you talking about, a$$hole? You are obviously delusional and see women hiding in every dark corner. . .even if they don't exist. Did you run out of your meds? Perhaps you did and your brain is getting phucked up as it is in all the threads.You need a psychiatrist, fella.
Sounds like TheGhostofOtto1923 got pussywhipped at some point in his life and thinks all guys are pussies like he is.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.2 / 5 (49) Dec 25, 2011
@Ghost. . . .what woman are you talking about, a$$hole? You are obviously delusional and see women hiding in every dark corner. . .even if they don't exist. Did you run out of your meds? Perhaps you did and your brain is getting phucked up as it is in all the threads.You need a psychiatrist, fella.
Sounds like TheGhostofOtto1923 got pussywhipped at some point in his life and thinks all guys are pussies like he is.
Sure thing tuffguy. Er fella. Er dirty bird.
http://www.youtub...=related
Noumenon
2.6 / 5 (136) Dec 25, 2011
I dont suppose you realize this woman is making all of this up? Why are you feeding this nutcase? - GhostOfOtto


How did you determine that?
Pirouette
Dec 25, 2011
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
Pirouette
1.2 / 5 (44) Dec 25, 2011
I spent 2 years in VietNam killing gooks. . .one more a$$hole won't make any difference. LOL
antialias_physorg
3.4 / 5 (10) Dec 25, 2011
Woha...you drop out of a conversation for a sec and the crazies come out in force.

You guys should probably move to 4chan. That would be more appropriate.
Pirouette
1.3 / 5 (45) Dec 25, 2011
antialias. . .maybe you need to read further up. . .there's plenty of provocation for a good killing. I think I would be doing Physorg a favor LOL
TheGhostofOtto1923
2 / 5 (21) Dec 25, 2011
I spent 2 years in VietNam killing gooks. . .

-Uh how'd you do that? Like this?
http://www.youtub...XpLOYfog
one more a$$hole won't make any difference. LOL

-Sorry the good and the sane usually do win out:
http://www.youtub...=related
Pirouette
1.2 / 5 (42) Dec 25, 2011
and you are neither good nor sane, Ghost. That's why you want me out of Physorg. You think that you can rule over everyone else while you're talking $hit and nobody will notice because they're all interested in the science. You and FrankHerfart want to pretend you're the bosses of the threads. . .well, that may be fine with everyone else. But not with me. I'm staying LOL
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.9 / 5 (23) Dec 25, 2011
and you are neither good nor sane, Ghost. That's why you want me out of Physorg. You think that you can rule over everyone else while you're talking $hit and nobody will notice because they're all interested in the science. You and FrankHerfart want to pretend you're the bosses of the threads. . .well, that may be fine with everyone else. But not with me. I'm staying LOL
Hey nou - notice how $he drops in and out of character? LOL
Pirouette
1.2 / 5 (44) Dec 25, 2011
Strange how TheGhost seems to want desperately for Noumenon to side with him, as though he can get me to leave Physorg that way. . .LOL
"Out of character" says Ghost. . .what character is Ghost talking about? I only HAVE ONE AND NO OTHER.
Oh wait. . .Ghost is looking for a woman that he can torture and mentally abuse. That's why he prefers a woman to argue with. It figures, since he is a weak sister himself. I think he got excited and almost had an orgasm when I threatened to find him. . .LOL
Pirouette
1.2 / 5 (47) Dec 25, 2011
Ghost. . . .did you come yet. Heh. . .probably all over his silicon-based keyboard. :)
Noumenon
2.6 / 5 (139) Dec 25, 2011
,...Why would Pirouette choose nearly the same screen name, if he didn't want others to think it was him?

On the other hand FH was motivated to choose a similar screen (Pirouette2) to try and convince others it is Pirouette.

FrankHerbert has been rating GhostOfOtto1923 1's and me 5's, and the others accordingly to support the lie,.. while in the past Pirouette has never really engaged in mass rating campaigns.


Looks like FrankHerbert switched from Pirouette2 to camshaft,... I guess he agreed with me that he wasn't making sense, with Pirouette2.
Pirouette
1.2 / 5 (44) Dec 26, 2011
LOL. . .what the hell is a camshaft? Is that something like a crankshaft? or a elevator shaft? a mine shaft? geeeez. . .is that freaking idiot TheGhost still on my back? (trying to brush the cockroach off)
Pirouette
1.2 / 5 (43) Dec 26, 2011
Hey wait. . .I saw that same user name camshaft in the terrorist thread also. . . .and he/she/it didn't have any comment either. Maybe it's a drone?
antialias_physorg
3.8 / 5 (13) Dec 26, 2011
antialias. . .maybe you need to read further up. . .there's plenty of provocation for a good killing. I think I would be doing Physorg a favor LOL

The only good killing on your part might be suicide.
Callippo
1 / 5 (3) Dec 26, 2011
..Merry Christmas and much of love to all silicon based life here...
Pirouette
1.2 / 5 (43) Dec 26, 2011
http://medicalxpr...ent.html

Well antialias. . . .your friend TheGhost has followed me into yet another thread to spew his venom. I am surprised that you would align yourself with his/her irrational behavior.
Pirouette
1.2 / 5 (43) Dec 26, 2011
It is obvious now that TheGhost and FrankHerbert has caused the ruination of a perfectly good thread mainly because of the topic. Although they do ruin other good threads because they can, come to think of it. I will no longer respond to their idiocy in any thread and will try to curb my name-calling per my agreement with barakn. . .unless the provocation is there.
I find the possibility of silicon-based life forms intriguing and would like to see more threads about it.
antialias_physorg
3.1 / 5 (11) Dec 26, 2011
Well antialias. . . .your friend TheGhost

You know what? He's not my friend.
As far as I can tell he occasionally posts good stuff. Mostly he posts BS. He's included in the 'crazies' category.

You, on the other hand, post BS non-stop.
Someone making death threats on the internet is really far, far gone over the insanity horizon (and still accelerating)
Pirouette
1.2 / 5 (42) Dec 26, 2011
antialias. . .do you honestly believe that I would take time out from my perfect life and possibly get caught and sent to jail for the rest of my life just to rid the world of that raving lunatic piece of $hit who is so obviously insane because I have come into his virtual life? Really? This is the internet, or have you started to take everything so seriously. Of course, if I really wanted to do so, I have ways of going about it. . .but it's too much of a bother, so I won't. He is now posting his/her weird shit after I've posted on the other alien thread. Maybe he doesn't like the idea of aliens. . .I don't know. Or maybe he IS an alien. . .again I don't know. :)
Pirouette
1.2 / 5 (42) Dec 26, 2011
http://www.physor...cts.html

I suppose he will keep on posting his BS and I will keep on ignoring her/him. A lot of members say that Ghost is a bullshit artist and pretends to know everything. I learn from a lot of people, but have never learned anything useful of science from him/her at any time.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.8 / 5 (19) Dec 26, 2011
antialias. . .do you honestly believe that I would take time out from my perfect life and possibly get caught and sent to jail for the rest of my life
Yeah and besides it was her imaginary VietNam [sic] vetrinary boyfriend not her, who is also posting and rating as all those cockadoodie sockpuppets of which she herself has absolutely no knowledge of. You dirty bird you.
http://www.youtub...ure=fvsr
antialias_physorg
3.3 / 5 (12) Dec 26, 2011
antialias. . .do you honestly believe that I would take time out from my perfect life and possibly get caught and sent to jail for the rest of my life just to rid the world of that raving lunatic piece of $hit

You know - that's so laughable.

I BET you have never threatened to kill anyone in real life and I BET that you have never followed through if you have made such a threat.

But on the internet anyone can make such a threat with impunity. On the net, the mask comes off. The things people don't dare to do in real life are exposed. And when that doesn't match their real life persona then only one conclusion can be made:

You are a pathetic whimp. Needing the shield of the web to feel strong.

Go away.

Grow up.

Get a life.

Pirouette
1.2 / 5 (44) Dec 26, 2011
Oh I see. . .you are a troll also, antialias. . .and for all I know, YOU could be either FrankHerbfart or Ghost. . .or both of them. . .that's laughable too. I wouldn't be surprised since you have insulted my service to my country and the 2 years I spent in a war zone trying to stay alive. I also see that you are not as intelligent as I once thought, since you have fallen for Ghost's and frankherbfart's lies. . .that means you condone their behavior. Congratulations antialias. . .you have given yourself away for who you really are.
deepsand
2.6 / 5 (23) Dec 27, 2011
One need not be a troll in order to recognize uncivil and irrational behavior.
antialias_physorg
2.8 / 5 (11) Dec 27, 2011
Oh I see. . .you are a troll also, antialias. . .and for all I know, YOU could be either FrankHerbfart or Ghost. . .or both of them

Yeah, right...That's why I disagree with them so often...makes perfect sense....not.

Must be fun living in that conspiracy world of yours.

(Oh, BTW: your camshaft sockpuppet has been reported...wasn't particularly hard to figure out that that is one of yours).

I wouldn't be surprised since you have insulted my service to my country and the 2 years I spent in a war zone trying to stay alive.

So? Carrying a weapon and going into a war zone does not automatically make one right, moral, justified, or good. (In my book that makes one just stupid, easily manipulated, naive and kill crazy)

that means you condone their behavior.

As noted I have done no such thing (NB. that I talked of 'crazies'...not singular but plural). But compared to you they are golden. However X being better than Y does not make X automatically good.

TheGhostofOtto1923
2 / 5 (20) Dec 27, 2011
Oh I see. . .you are a troll also, antialias. . .and for all I know, YOU could be either FrankHerbfart or Ghost. . .or both of them. . .that's laughable too. I wouldn't be surprised since you have insulted my service to my country and the 2 years I spent in a war zone trying to stay alive.
Sorry this was not you this was your imaginary boyfriend. Just how screwed up are you?
TheGhostofOtto1923
2 / 5 (20) Dec 27, 2011
Oh I see. . .you are a troll also, antialias. . .and for all I know, YOU could be either FrankHerbfart or Ghost. . .or both of them. . .that's laughable too. I wouldn't be surprised since you have insulted my service to my country and the 2 years I spent in a war zone trying to stay alive.
Sorry this was not you this was your imaginary boyfriend. Just how screwed up are you?
Piro is the kind of person who would invent an imaginary boyfriend in order to threaten people who give her a hard time. And also make a sockpuppet named piro2 and think people wouldn't know it was her. This is the state of piros brain.

Or this is merely someone being clever by pretending to be a melodramatically stupid person in order to pwn us?
antialias_physorg
3.2 / 5 (11) Dec 27, 2011
Well, he made another sockpuppet ('camshaft') to vote others down and himself up. That's gotta be the most pathetic thing I've ever seen.

On the othr hand: He is a posterboy for the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Pirouette
1.3 / 5 (48) Dec 27, 2011
LOL. . .I didn't even know about the purpose of the Activity tab in my Profile page until FrankHerbfart explained it a couple of days ago after he tried to pin his sockpuppet Pirouette2 on me. After that, I checked my scores for the first time and I see that Camshaft has been rating Pirouette. I don't rate anyone anymore because there is no prize for the highest or lowest score. I consider the whole rating thing as a waste of time. But apparently FrankHerbert likes to fart around and have his sockpuppets rate everyone, pretending I have his sockpuppets. I have none and I don't need any. You people are definitely insane and I will not waste my time talking to you any more.
antialias_physorg
3.2 / 5 (13) Dec 27, 2011
didn't even know about the purpose of the Activity tab

Pretty obvious, that. Otherwise you'd have sussed why people immediately know it's you that made all these sockpuppets.

Pitiful. Just pitiful.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.1 / 5 (19) Dec 27, 2011
LOL. . .I didn't even know about the purpose of the Activity tab in my Profile page until FrankHerbfart explained it a couple of days ago after he tried to pin his sockpuppet Pirouette2 on me. After that, I checked my scores for the first time and I see that Camshaft has been rating Pirouette. I don't rate anyone anymore because there is no prize for the highest or lowest score. I consider the whole rating thing as a waste of time. But apparently FrankHerbert likes to fart around and have his sockpuppets rate everyone, pretending I have his sockpuppets. I have none and I don't need any. You people are definitely insane and I will not waste my time talking to you any more.
...and youre a liar. You will continue to be exposed every time you spout. The list of people who will tolerate you grows shorter daily. LOL
Noumenon
2.6 / 5 (136) Dec 27, 2011
@AntiAlias & GhostOfOtto

I'm pretty darn sure that Pirouette2 and camshaft is FrankHerbert. He is rating everyone accordingly to make it appear it is Pirouette.

I know for a fact that FrankHerbert has at least eight screen names and has been abusing the rating system, given my PM with him, and has falsely accused me and others of making specific racists comments. I've called on the moderators to inspect my PM's and ban him. See my profile to see FH sockpuppet harem.

It is interesting that no one seems to attack FrankHerbert for doing much worse than what you falsely accuse Pirouette of doing.

And No, I'm not sticking up for Pirouette here.
deepsand
2.8 / 5 (20) Dec 27, 2011
And there is another newcomer playing the game - Apoagogic - echoing camshaft's ratings.
antialias_physorg
3.4 / 5 (10) Dec 27, 2011
Nope. That's Pirouette all right. Doesn't matter. Just sent him a PM informing him that I find it hilarious.

Just imagine. Him sitting in his mom's basement. Working for a long time. Finding all those posts. Ineffectively downvoting people. I never thought someone could be manipulated so simply into such infantile rage.

And the really good part is: it just shows how much my analysis of him being naive, childish and easily manipulated was spot on.

Man. This show is awesome :-)
Noumenon
2.6 / 5 (135) Dec 27, 2011
Nope. That's Pirouette all right. Doesn't matter


What doesn't matter, logic and reason? Based on what? How do you know its Pirouette? Just because you want it to be Pirouette, because you don't agree with him/her? If so, you are no different than FH.

I say it's FrankHerbert as Apoagogic,camshaft, and Pirouette2, based on his previous behavior with multi-screen names, and rating campaigns, which he basically admitted to via PM to me,.. and my analysis above.

I know that the follwing screen names are FrankHerberts. Is he childish, by your estimation?

RacistsCommieHypocrite ,iTwanker, Libtard, ryggesogn3, gregor2, CManhole82, DenseAetherTheory, Pirouline, PetiteAmerican, PaoloIlTipoBasso, Fagamemnon
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.9 / 5 (18) Dec 27, 2011
And you dear Pudel seem to be discounting piro brcause she rubs your butt. Frank has experience here. Piro the lying fabricator of phoney boyfriends does not, and this can be seen in the evolution of her sockpuppetry from CAM to apoaplegic. SHE is following franks lead I think, in a dimwitted fashion, not realizing how transparent this is.

UNLESS this is some troll who created the creature piro and is playing the physorg community. This would be easy to do except for the volume of piro posts and sockpuppet action. Hush 1 LOL hasnt been around lately. He seems to be the arty creative type with a distorted imagination and a lot of free time.

These are some thoughts which come to mind. No matter - otto is an easy mark. I will continue to slam the piro creature because I do not like BULLSHIT or lazy and SHE is full of both. Or thats the way SHE is created.

I had a cousin who was full of crap. He told you crazy stories and tried to cover them up with obvious lies. Wore a bad toupee.

TheGhostofOtto1923
2.1 / 5 (19) Dec 27, 2011
Just imagine. Him sitting in his mom's basement. Working for a long time. Finding all those posts. Ineffectively downvoting people. I never thought someone could be manipulated so simply into such infantile rage.
If you note piros profile page and posting history... apparently widowed/divorced, son, retired in FL, eats freeking bowls of butterbeans, sees UFOs and calls NASA about them, And loves to CHAT endlessly about this crap.

The female identity is important to understanding the claim that the boyfriend created the nick 'pirouette' - a ballet move? - and is also a tuffguy pottymouth who shows up to intimidate. 'Hey honey - what should we call our nick?' 'Well Im a ballerina...' -And this is a vet who spells Vietnam wrong?

And apparently piro forgets which one of them is the ufo buff with the website.

-Or it could be a kid in a basement. I would guess a college dropout with a long history on 4chan and such. Steals magazines from libraries. Kicked out of lulzsec.
Noumenon
2.6 / 5 (136) Dec 27, 2011
Hmmm, I'm assuming FrankHerbert PM'd you and antialias, then. Nice. Have fun.
FrankHerbert
2.4 / 5 (117) Dec 28, 2011
The Tleilaxu, a race of humans with advanced genetic technology in the Dune Chronicles, are so full of hubris and believe their schemes to be so airtight that they intentionally induce flaws into their schemes to give their enemies a chance at uncovering them (they always do).

Interestingly enough, I just googled "apoagogic" and well... I'll let you come to any conclusions. Otto, I'm sure you'll see what I'm talking about.
deepsand
2.7 / 5 (21) Dec 28, 2011
Seems that "camshaft" may now be abandoned, leaving "apoagogic" to carry on 'till its successor makes an appearance.
antialias_physorg
3.4 / 5 (10) Dec 28, 2011
What doesn't matter, logic and reason? Based on what? How do you know its Pirouette? Just because you want it to be Pirouette, because you don't agree with him/her?

No, because he has used that sockpuppet before (and actually admitted to it as far as I recall)

I'm assuming FrankHerbert PM'd you and antialias

I haven't had a PM by Frank Herbert. But I really haven't had much to do with him. He's not my concern in this. And I have - to my recollection - never attacked him directly (and therefore I assume I'm not his concern, either ... I think it would be unlikely that he'd start downvoting me fo no reason whatsoever. But hey - my rating hasn't been affected one bit so what do I care?)

As I said: it doesn't matter. The sockpuppets will be deleted eventually - and all their ratings with it. It's just the wasted effort on his part that I find so funny.
Noumenon
3.5 / 5 (137) Dec 28, 2011
It's not for no reason, as I told you, he wants you to think it is pirouette. He's fooled you exactly to plan, or you're in on it to get rid of pirouette.

Interestingly enough, I just googled "apoagogic" and well... I'll let you come to any conclusions. Otto, I'm sure you'll see what I'm talking about.

Lame. You're only fooling other knuckleheads. What is certain is that you won't be able to fool the moderators once they read my PM's, troll.
antialias_physorg
3.7 / 5 (12) Dec 28, 2011
I'll repeat it again: it doesn't matter. The sockpuppets have been reported and will, if past actions are any indication, be enventually deleted - and all their 'voting effects' with them.

Am I in on it? No. Whatever for?

Do I want to get rid of Pirouette? No. Much in the same way i don't want to get rid of Omatumr or rawa (or whatever he calls himself now). It's not my site. They have as much a right to be here as you or me.

Would I prefer that they not be here? Certainly. I'd really love if this was a site for SUBSTANTIVE discourse on science news by educated and interested laymen - and not so much a catchbasin for conspiracy theorists and people who have no clue.
antialias_physorg
3.4 / 5 (10) Dec 28, 2011
It's not for no reason, as I told you, he wants you to think it is pirouette.

And if anything it's you...judging from your ratings Apogagoc and camshaft have been uprating you accross the board.

But. Meh. Whatever.

Some people certainly show their true infantile character when they can hide behind internet anonymity.
It's actually quite interesting because that explains a lot in real life (voting outcomes, mobbing, petty lawsuits...all the things you hear about but cannot believe actual grownups do)
Noumenon
2.6 / 5 (136) Dec 28, 2011
And if anything it's you...judging from your ratings Apogagoc and camshaft have been uprating you accross the board.


Oh, brother, #rolleyes. I guess you fell for FH's childish behavior hook line and sinker. See my profile for all the screen names FH has used to down rate me, five at a time, for months on end. FH has a history of abusing the rating system.

I have PM's where FH refered to me as "Fagamemnon" (one of his screen names).

When I asked him in a thread,... "What happened, did your other ten screen names get banned?" ,... He quoted the above and responded via PM, "Nope :)".

I really don't care, the only thing that irks me is the following;
Above, FH said, "I called you a racist once over a PM because you called me a "GODDAMN N----R LOVER" over PM.... You're angry someone called you out on some horribly racist BS you said.".

This is an outright lie, as there is nothing of the kind in any of my PM's, as the moderators can see for themselves.
antialias_physorg
3.4 / 5 (10) Dec 28, 2011
To reiterate: Who. Cares.

It'll go away. This whole sockpuppetry is ridiculous and it won't change a thing. If you make substantive posts you make substantive posts. If you make BS posts you make BS posts. When I rate (which is rarely) then I rate according to the quality of the post (mostly a thumbs up). But that's just a spontaneous thing for me. I really only vote down when something is (IMO) incredibly dumb or completely off topic (or spam).

But ultimately: having a rating of such-and-such on a post (end even moreso as an average on your profile) means nothing*. It means only something to those not able to make up their own minds - and those are the people that aren't worth the time of day on a science site, anyhow.
Noumenon
2.7 / 5 (137) Dec 28, 2011
Yes, we are in agreement entirely. FrankHerbert has been rating me 1's constantly and consistently for months. He stopped recently and abruptly when he invented pirouette2 and now camshaft and Apoagogic. It is FH.

You say you "don't care", but you at least care enough to accuse me or pirouette.

My issue with FrankHerbert as outlined above is when he takes it a step further and accuses others of making racists remarks to him via PM. He did this with Pirouette, and made the mistake of doing it to me as follows;

I called you a racist once over a PM because you called me a "GODDAMN N----R LOVER" over PM.... You're angry someone called you out on some horribly racist BS you said.". - FrankHerbert


I'm going to continue to bug the moderators to read my PM's so they can determine there is no such remarks, and that FrankHerbert is being disruptive to other members.
Noumenon
2.7 / 5 (138) Dec 28, 2011
The following screen names, owned by FrankHerbert, should be deleted as their only existance is to abuse the ratings system;

FrankHerbert
RacistsCommieHypocrite
iTwanker
Libtard
ryggesogn3
gregor2
CManhole82
DenseAetherTheory
Pirouline
PetiteAmerican
PaoloIlTipoBasso
Fagamemnon
Pirouette2
camshaft
Apoagogic

Much of this disruptive behavior can be eliminated by simply a) disabling the comment rating system entirely, or b) allowing ratings by donating members only.

Even better is a suggestion by Ethelred,.. pick some non-childish members (like Ethelred) to moderate these forums.

Oh, and get rid of orac already.
antialias_physorg
4.3 / 5 (6) Dec 28, 2011
Then report them to the mods. That's what that little link at the bottom of the website is for. Or just use the "report abuse" button when they do post.

I rather suspect that the mods are not reading the posts on these threads (with a 6-7 man crew and about 100 new pieces on this site per day I find it likely that they are far too busy for that)

Simple IP comparisons should be able to tell whose sockpuppets they are - and consequently lead to the banning of the originating poster, a very unfriendly email by the mods and a permaban on the IP (or at least that is what I would do in such a case).
Noumenon
2.9 / 5 (121) Dec 28, 2011
,.. yes that is why Ethelred's suggestion is a good one.
antialias_physorg
3.4 / 5 (5) Dec 28, 2011
You say you "don't care", but you at least care enough to accuse me or pirouette.

I don't care whether it's you, pirouette or the holy god almighty.

My wish would be for more competent, substantive and thoughtful posts on scientific subjects - that is all.

Whether someone goes on a ratings war couldn't be of less of an interest to me. When I find it I report it to the mods and that's it.

But the rage tirades in threads? I usually just skip over that.

here I butted in because I came to check on a thread that I had posted on...and noticed death threats being bandied about and people behaving completely immature - which is something that gets my goat because it does tend to spill over into other threads...which is something you're not innocent of.

I feel that this spoils what this site is (or should be) all about.