RQ-170 drone's ambush facts spilled by Iranian engineer

Dec 17, 2011 by Nancy Owano weblog
RQ-170 Sentinel. © TruthDowser / Wikimedia Commons / CC-BY-SA-3.0

(PhysOrg.com) -- In the aftermath of the Iran capture of a US military drone earlier this month now come arguments over how Iran managed to pull it off. An Iranian engineer’s exclusive interview with The Christian Science Monitor has been published, which details how the Iranians captured the drone through jamming. An opposing camp says the story is just that, a story, while others schooled in GPS systems say that the Iranians' technique is technically possible but they would not bet on it.

Iran’s story about the electronic ambush of America’s sophisticated , the RQ-170 Sentinel, is that their experts used their technology savvy to trick the drone into landing where the drone thought was its actual base in Afghanistan but instead they made it land in . They used reverse engineering techniques that they had developed after exploring less sophisticated American drones captured or shot down in recent years. They were able to figure how to exploit a navigational weakness in the drone’s system. "The GPS navigation is the weakest point," the Iranian engineer told the newspaper.

Iranian electronic warfare specialists were able to cut off the communications link by jamming on the communications. The said that they forced the drone into autopilot. That state is where “the bird loses its brain." The Iranians reconfigured the drone's GPS coordinates and they used precise latitudinal and longitudinal data to force the drone to land on its own. In doing so the Iranian team did not have to bother about cracking remote control signals and communications from a control center in the U.S., and the RQ170 suffered only minimal damage, according to the report.

Adding strength and credibility to that story were military experts saying that even a combat-grade GPS system is vulnerable to manipulation. According to a GPS expert at the University of New Brunswick in Canada, Richard Langley, it’s theoretically possible to take control of a drone by jamming.

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GPS satellites transmit on two legacy radio frequencies. The unencrypted code used by most civilian GPS units is transmitted only on the L1 frequency. The encrypted P code for military users is transmitted on both the L1 and L2 frequency. If the Iranians could jam the encrypted military code on the L1 and L2 frequencies then the drone’s GPS receiver might reach out to use the less secure code to get directions. Without encryption, it would be possible for an enemy to fool a drone into thinking it was elsewhere.

While possible in theory, other GPS experts say it is a difficult feat and they express doubt that the exploit happened.

Some analysts think another possibility is that the aircraft malfunctioned independent of any Iranian electronic interference. Further doubt is expressed not only over whether it was technologically possible for them to overtake the navigation system but also to bring it down with such minimal damage to it. John Pike, defense expert from GlobalSecurity.org, was quoted as saying he thought the drone exhibited by the Iranians looked like a parade float in that it was remarkably intact.

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rah
3.8 / 5 (23) Dec 17, 2011
Why don't these aircraft have self-destruct options on-board?
Doug_Huffman
2.6 / 5 (18) Dec 17, 2011
The suggestion is that they do have self-destruct capability but that it was not enabled or disabled as part of the failure that led to its capture.

Remember that these systems are remotely operated by government sponsored video gamers and not by pilots aboard nor boots-on-the-ground warriors. Bradley Manning was sitting in the next cubicle over. This is the modern-military's "oops."
Isaacsname
1.9 / 5 (17) Dec 17, 2011
It was too easy, I think they let them have it so they could waste time studying something inconsequential and fairly innocuous.

A trojan horse-style distraction.
Lantern5
1.8 / 5 (16) Dec 17, 2011
Since then, I suppose you understand that extremely efficient engines of these ships could be used by the Iranians to build cruise missiles such as tomahawks, with the risk that they put one of the two nuclear warheads to Russia bought. A further challenge is that they study the ship's electronic equipment to upgrade their missile systems ogy.
I suggest you put automatic self-destruct systems and remote control your unmanned aerial vehicles.
Suggest that the air force carried out an international ideas competition to find new guidance systems that can not be damaged.
gwrede
3 / 5 (21) Dec 17, 2011
Whether this happened or not, or whether this happened as stated, is actually besides the point. The important thing is to see yet again that even ultra-top-extra bleeding edge military systems are vulnerable to technology and attacks that are really mundane.

Most readers here could accomplish the GPS attack described here, if they were given a year to prepare and some money for what they need to buy.

This gives credibility to Science Fiction stories where a technologically superior adversary is defeated by exploiting a trivial oversight in the design. There always seems to be one, even in real life.
Isaacsname
2.9 / 5 (14) Dec 17, 2011
Idk, if I was a superpower ( title of my next book btw ) I'd constantly let my enemies " capture " my high-tech " stealth " weapons. I'd have 'em so confused with bogus tech, they wouldn't know which way is up.

...*rubs hands together*
kaasinees
Dec 17, 2011
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
gmurphy
4.7 / 5 (29) Dec 17, 2011
Never assume conspiracy where stupidity will suffice.
finitesolutions
2.3 / 5 (22) Dec 17, 2011
Remember that this drone is supposed to be stealth yet the Iranians detected it.
How will peace look like after an US-Iran war?... Not much different than today. I am watching this as I watch a football match and my favorite team is Iran. Iran please obey your masters in command from Washington otherwise you will be punished ( sarcasm ).
USA is spreading tyranny and poverty lately rather than freedom and prosperity.
Mayday
4.4 / 5 (16) Dec 17, 2011
Fighting wars depending on your technology to stay secret is a really, really bad idea. Obviously it is essential to work hard to stay ahead of developments by our enemies. But we must always remember that they will catch up, whether through espionage, theft, crashes, mistakes, corruption, leaving things behind after battle or by their own wits. To take a technology to the actual battlefield is to also accept the risk of losing it. Don't go to Las Vegas with money you can't afford to lose. Could this be why our most advanced fighter jet never sees combat?
AkiBola
2.4 / 5 (24) Dec 17, 2011
More than likely this is pure BS, but if not, the weak Obama "please can we have our ball back" response is dangerously incompetent. The drone should have been taken out by us, wherever it ended up.
antialias_physorg
2.9 / 5 (16) Dec 17, 2011
Why don't these aircraft have self-destruct options on-board?

They probably do - but why would it self destruct if it thought it landed at the right place? and as long as there's jamming going on no outside trigger will be able to detonate the device.

Remember that this drone is supposed to be stealth yet the Iranians detected it.

Which is actually fairly trivial if you have a working cell phone network. Stealth craft swallow EM radiation. This is picked up by cell phone towers as a drop in signal strength and they try to compensate. By tracking which towers are affected in sequence you can get a very exact trajectory of low flying stealth craft.

(Most trivial would be visually spotting it, though)
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.1 / 5 (25) Dec 17, 2011
Fighting wars depending on your technology to stay secret is a really, really bad idea. Obviously it is essential to work hard to stay ahead of developments by our enemies. But we must always remember that they will catch up
Well sure. It has always been this way. But advancing tech wins wars. War is the prime motivator of tech for this very reason. War is only a more sincere form of competition.

If you are not striving to develop these systems and improve them under actual combat conditions then the enemy will and you will be usurped. It is not something you can choose to avoid.

The equation of life is based on competition. Population pressure is what drives this. Either your tribe gets the food or the other tribe gets the food. Either your tribe gets to fill up the earth or they do. Needless to say these imperatives can generate some pretty serious conflict and some major technological advance.

Tech is only evolution externalized. Our claws became knives.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.1 / 5 (20) Dec 17, 2011
Fighting wars depending on your technology to stay secret is a really, really bad idea.
'ALL of war is deception.' Sun Tsu. And since peace is only the preparation for war, then all of peace is necessarily deception as well. Stands to Reason. Losing is never an option.
How will peace look like after an US-Iran war?... Not much different than today. I am watching this as I watch a football match
Sports are only a (slightly) less sincere form of war.
Doug_Huffman
2.3 / 5 (15) Dec 17, 2011
and as long as there's jamming going on no outside trigger will be able to detonate the device.
Barometric altitude can't be jammed but must be enabled.
stripeless_zebra
Dec 17, 2011
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
Doug_Huffman
2 / 5 (12) Dec 17, 2011
And of self-destruction?
stripeless_zebra
3.1 / 5 (25) Dec 17, 2011
Remember that this drone is supposed to be stealth yet the Iranians detected it.


Well, it is quite big - 26 meters wing span and when it crash landed in the desert their most sophisticated detection system - hordes of goat shepherds had no problems spotting it.

USA is spreading tyranny and poverty lately rather than freedom and prosperity.


Really! Personally I prefer Made in the USA tyranny and poverty over the Iranian freedom and prosperity.
giasudatviet
Dec 17, 2011
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
Riff
4.3 / 5 (17) Dec 17, 2011
They say the B2 has a radar signature of a small bird, yet they spotted this latest piece of unmanned technology? And as one of the latest things that we have, you mean it's channels aren't encrypted with a new key every time it goes up? None of it makes sense and 99% of it defies logic and reason. In fact it is so convoluted now, that nobody here can say ANYTHING about it and be accurate at this point. I also noticed that anybody who says it all sounds fishy got a low rating. I say anybody who doesn't think its fishy is kinda dense.
ralbol
4.7 / 5 (6) Dec 17, 2011
A good indication of whether or not the Iranian claim is true, will be the army grounding the drone fleet for an "overhaul"...

The need for an overhaul would be a clue that there is a problem beyond the "accident" claim, and that there is a need to change something.

Not a proof mind you but a clue...
finitesolutions
2.9 / 5 (19) Dec 17, 2011
GPS or no GPS the drone can accurately enough know where it is by using inertial reference systems. Inertial reference onboard gyroscope can not be jammed.
Imagine that GPS satellites are knocked out by solar storm. A critical system should not rely on GPS any longer.
After all the drone has been insufficient designed.
USA does act like a dictatorial country putting down smaller more rebellious countries.
Enemies are needed to keep the massive military complex busy for centuries to come. Peace means unemployment, war means staying busy and prosperity.
Osiris1
1.8 / 5 (15) Dec 17, 2011
Seem to remember the Iran/Iraq war. Our 'news' always seemed old when it came from us; as this was the first 'war' that took place where common folks as ourselves could follow on the internet and had access to EVERYBODY'S news and not just faint shortwave signals lasting a few seconds of commercials in gibberish.

The 'news' on our side was silent because events in this war were handled by the old rules. Money was being lost every day at sea when ships went down. Environmental disasters were being committed every day by both sides. Money being lost meant stocks were GONNA GO DOWN! and the truth told WHICH STOCKS! Delaying the truth to mass media gave an opening to special media available only to the rich to give this temporary inside information to their customers in Gucci shoes, Armani suits and Limos....so they could make TAX FREE money out of the world's suffering and blood...and short sale the loser stocks in all the world's stock markets.
pres68y
1.3 / 5 (8) Dec 17, 2011
When US/Israel dispatch a nuclear armed RQ170 type aircraft
the Iranians will be able to redirect it to crash into Dimona?
The world could then become a lot more peaceful for it.
axemaster
3.7 / 5 (10) Dec 17, 2011
Wow, the military is incompetent. What a surprise. /sarcasm

It's especially hilarious because as I've repeatedly said here and elsewhere, the trouble with using robots is that you never know when they might be used against you. What do you wanna bet the Chinese have already managed to get hacked chips inside our drones? They'll be laughing when they sell the activation code to Iran, and our bots turn right around and start mowing down our own troops.
Skepticus_Rex
1.2 / 5 (31) Dec 17, 2011
I overheard an interesting rumor, although I don't necessarily believe it. I heard that it contained a biological agent tied to unigue markers in Iranian DNA that is currently and quietly spreading among the population.

A viral agent (hidden within the envelope of a harmless virus on the shell of the drone) will activate in about five years and will wipe out the majority of the population who handled the drone and all those who have had contact with those who handled the drone (including government personnel).

As I said, it is probably just a rumor with little to no basis in fact. I doubt that the technology is available even to the US government to do something like that. But, if it turned out to be true, Iran's only out would be to incinerate the drone and all its components, and quarantine anyone exposed to the drone or to those exposed to others who handled it for the next five years to minimize further contamination.

But, as I said, it is most likely just a rumor. :)
Osiris1
1.3 / 5 (15) Dec 17, 2011
Please read my older post first. If one read or watched the spoon fed propaganda that constituted news from the 'smiling face of capitalism' where fluff trumped significant news at every hand, one would come away thinking nothing was happening. Think of the duck who looks serene on the top of the water yet it moves! The concealment and lying was revealed by the internet when one considered news from Iraq and Iran at the time, and news from concerned nations worldwide. Such had to be read with a really GOOD BS filter. All Muslims are supposed to tell the truth at all times. We Americans and other non Muslims are free to lie our asses off.....and we DOOOOO. The secular Sunni Iraqi Baathist Sadaam INsane-ites lied their Sunni asses off...all the time. The Iranians actually told the truth about their casualties...all the time. It took a while to realize this as this fact was verified over and over again by other media all over the world. AND THEY ARE TELLING THE TRUTH NOW!
jdbertron
2.1 / 5 (10) Dec 17, 2011
Either the story is full of wholes or our design of these things is sorely half-baked. Where was the inertial navigation system ? Where is the anti-jam command and control for an on-board emp
Nanobanano
1.8 / 5 (16) Dec 17, 2011
This is why these things need a more direct approach to communication,s uch as a "line of sight" laser communication system with a satellite.

A laser signal would be much harder to intercept and decode, because it would be an extremely focused beam only a few feet wide even by the time it disassociated a bit, rather than Radio, which disperses through the whole damn region and gets picked up by every reciever.

Ultimately, this just goes to show that nothing beats a human pilot.

It's pretty bad if the "ultimate spy plane" didn't have enough sophisticated instrumentation, programming, and backups to recognize a false signal.

What happened to passive backup systems, such as a common gyroscope and compass?

Why not have cameras on the top side of the craft looking at the sky, so it can self-navigate via the stars and sun?

See that? I can probably still think of at least 2 or 3 perfectly reliable, UNJAMMABLE nagivation systems.

Our engineers are incompetent..
fmfbrestel
5 / 5 (6) Dec 17, 2011
All Muslims are supposed to tell the truth at all times. We Americans and other non Muslims are free to lie our asses off.....

Really? Thou Shall Not Lie? A muslim is just as "free" to lie as a christian. How about Ahmadinejad stating that homosexuals do not exist in Iran? Or when they welded together some barrels, painted them, and claimed they were Russian S-300 missile systems?
antialias_physorg
3.9 / 5 (7) Dec 17, 2011
Barometric altitude can't be jammed but must be enabled.

How would that help if it thought it was landing in the right place? Or do you propose to self destruct an UAV on EVERY landing (or even on every low altitude maneuver during missions)?

GPS or no GPS the drone can accurately enough know where it is by using inertial reference systems.

If it has an inertial reference systems (and I'm not sure it does) these are backup features as best (because they are very inaccurate over long times). If the process was as the engineer described then that system wasn't called for as the GPS signal was present at all times - it just didn't show the right coordinates.

Where is the anti-jam command and control for an on-board emp

UAVs are designed for range. This means: As light as can be.
At some point you have to compromise on the types and number of systems you can lug along.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.9 / 5 (15) Dec 17, 2011
I say anybody who doesn't think its fishy is kinda dense.
Competition is essential to developing better systems. Close competitors can be an invaluable asset.

How old is this tech? Arent GPS sats close to being obsolete? Giving 'enemies' the ability to provide respectable competition is a very good way of justifying critical expenditures, is it not?

The soviets were 'given' a great deal of tech during the cold war. The imminent threat of mutual annihilation justified the expenditure of trillions on the tech that both 'sides' have used to thoroughly subdue the world, and to produce many 1000s of tons of our civilization's most valuable tangible assets - fissionables.

And there are now new and very dangerous and very useful 'enemies'. Much Progress will ensue, affording more freedom, more options, and more security for what may well be the only intelligent species in a very perilous and unpredictable universe.

2 sides - 1 Coin. Every toss a Winner. EMPIRE
YawningDog
3.1 / 5 (14) Dec 17, 2011
All of the warmongering is a desperate attempt on the part of the moneyed elite to divert attention from the real story...which is the Wall Street/Banker's theft and swindles of the public treasury to make up for their failed bets in the marketplace. It's too bad we don't have a free enterprise system where the 1% take their losses just like everyone else. We would then have a system that works. Bailing out the stupid but rich is a failed and deeply flawed policy.
Pirouette
1.2 / 5 (18) Dec 17, 2011
@YawningDog. . . .It's all a bit of posturing and lies brought on because there has never been a genuine form of TRUE Capitalism in the U.S., or anywhere else for that matter. Corruption prevails because THEIR brand of Capitalism ALLOWS it. The U.S. government doesn't regulate the real culprits on Wall Street because the U.S. government is IN LEAGUE with the culprits and protects them from being thoroughly audited by honest auditors. Obama and Bush helped and still are helping the domino effect. Well, Bush is gone now, and Obama is carrying on, he MUST accomplish the reduction of the honest Wall Street influence and INCREASE the influence of the financial despots if he is to demolish the United States and turn it into a Communist country.
FrankHerbert
Dec 17, 2011
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
plasticpower
2.5 / 5 (6) Dec 17, 2011
Why don't these aircraft have self-destruct options on-board?


They do, but the aircraft's GPS was telling it that it has returned to base, so it had no reason to blow itself up.

This type of spoofing attack is entirely possible, and I have speculated about this exact scenario before it was released as news.

Stealth or not, this drone was probably flying the same route for weeks, enough time to figure out when it will be flying over the area again and orchestrate its capture. With a little bit of clever programming, which most entry-level software engineers armed with Google could easily do, you can intercept just about any drone anywhere without needing to know its route. All you need to know is its home base. You can set up a perimeter of jammers around your country/city/whatever that automatically lands any drone that ventures there. It's not rocket science, the GPS signals aren't encrypted - they're just timestamps sent from space.
Noumenon
Dec 17, 2011
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.3 / 5 (14) Dec 17, 2011
"The Government Accountability Office (GAO) released a report last week warning, "It is uncertain whether the Air Force will be able to acquire new satellites in time to maintain current GPS service without interruption. If not, some military operations and some civilian users could be adversely affected." The report also notes that the current program is about $870 million over budget and the launch of its first satellite has been delayed to November 2009, almost three years late."
http://www.popula.../4318471

-The only Reason to maintain current defense systems and to develop new ones is if there are still enemies left to fight.
Stealth or not, this drone was probably flying the same route for weeks, enough time to figure out when it will be flying over the area again and orchestrate its capture.
Uh wouldnt you expect the military to know enough not to do this sort of thing? Even armored car pickup and deliveries are staggered. Duh.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.7 / 5 (16) Dec 17, 2011
You can set up a perimeter of jammers around your country/city/whatever that automatically lands any drone that ventures there. It's not rocket science
-which is why the military knows enough to ANTICIPATE these things. Missions are often mounted using obsolete hardware to demonstrate the need to replace it. Using a-6s to attack lebanon, and exposing battleships to carrier-based aircraft attack, are 2 examples which come to mind. At least in this case no lives were expended in pressing the case.
Ober
3.5 / 5 (11) Dec 17, 2011
For those concerned about space and weight issues on a drone, then go look at DIYDRONES.COM and see how much technology you can fit on a quadrocopter and for a reasonable amount of $!!!
I'm surprised that site hasn't been shutdown considering the sophistication of the drones you can build with off the shelf technology. As for self destruct, well if the drone did have an engine failure, you would have to think that this is CAUSE to activate the chip fryer!!!! Intertial computing engines are always comparing with the GPS, so if the Iranians had tricked the GPS, surely the intertial system would have spotted the error, and said WTF, did I just warp through space?? Didn't the drone have a WTF routine on it????? Would be easy to implement!!!!
So either the yank drone was STUPID, OR it was given to the iranians in order for them to build dodgey drones. Much like the brits let the russians get hold of conchord plans, which led to the russians crashing all of their home built conchords!!!!
finitesolutions
1.3 / 5 (15) Dec 17, 2011
They do not want to become american slaves/bums/unemployed. Good job Iran : fight for your freedom from US tyranny.
flashgordon
2.2 / 5 (10) Dec 17, 2011
Well, the drone looks unscratched; so, the story seems plausible.
flashgordon
1.7 / 5 (10) Dec 17, 2011
With the pace of technological development, I wouldn't worry to much about them reverse engineering it. The Israelites might though considering their close proximity to Iran and everyone else. They're quite reliant on drones right now.
YummyFur
1.4 / 5 (11) Dec 17, 2011
Even if they got the plane so what, the country is still going down the toilet. Somehow the way they carry on about it reminds me of the way that Saddam Hussein was always all smiley and self congratulaty. Or like Osama bin Liner, "look I got a video camera and a digital watch"
YummyFur
1.7 / 5 (12) Dec 17, 2011
What about their impressive use of techno jargon like casually throwing 'reverse engineered it' into every soundbite. If they had a sense of humour they could have made fun of the way that everyone takes them so seriously by saying something like "we used a quasi asychronous photon entanglement phenomenon that uses our superior flux flow bit stream scalar technology". Then the BBC would have to report it with a straight face. Meanwhile Iran imports petrol.
Pirouette
1.6 / 5 (19) Dec 17, 2011
With the pace of technological development, I wouldn't worry to much about them reverse engineering it. The Israelites might though considering their close proximity to Iran and everyone else. They're quite reliant on drones right now.

@flashgordon. . pssst. . . ..the U.S. military LET them bring it down. . .so that Obummer and Clinton could put on a BIG show, practically teary-eyed so that Ahmadinejad would think he had good technology there in that little ol' drone. American Pentagon officials are not stupid, no matter how badly they are portrayed by the Leftist whackos.
Walfy
1.7 / 5 (7) Dec 17, 2011
Too bad fellow sentient beings of the same make sharing the same planet have ultra-childish and disgraceful squabbles. Waste of money, waste of fun. Boys with expensive toys pretending to be serious.
Doug_Huffman
2.2 / 5 (17) Dec 17, 2011
The WTC was great "fun", as was Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Let's spread some "fun" to Ahmadinnerjacket's backyard.

Good people ought to be armed as they will, with wits and Guns and the Truth.
antialias_physorg
3.4 / 5 (5) Dec 17, 2011
For those concerned about space and weight issues on a drone, then go look at DIYDRONES.COM and see how much technology you can fit on a quadrocopter and for a reasonable amount of $!!!

This thing flies a weee bit further than a quadcopter(it was downed 250km behind the Iranian border. So its operational range is 500km at the very least - probably much more)
It's basically a fueltank with wings and a tiny payload.

well if the drone did have an engine failure, you would have to think that this is CAUSE to activate the chip fryer
If it had an engine failure it would have crashed. Certainly it wouldn't look as good as it does. Even if it can glide in this does not provide it with a level landing field.
I wouldn't worry to much about them reverse engineering it.

Why not? Intelligence and engineering skills are fairly evenly distributed the world over.
Husky
5 / 5 (1) Dec 17, 2011
What strikes me as coincidental is that Russian Glonass GPS recently came only, could their gps system hold some extra ace up the sleeve that they try out by proxy playing through iran.
Vendicar_Decarian
Dec 17, 2011
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
kochevnik
1.4 / 5 (10) Dec 17, 2011
Really? Thou Shall Not Lie? A muslim is just as "free" to lie as a christian.
Actually Ahmadinejad was born Jewish.
signoftimes
1.6 / 5 (5) Dec 17, 2011
With Iranian technology, no. With Russian, or maybe even Chinese help... maybe. A systems failure without a crash? hahahahahaa no.
MIBO
5 / 5 (7) Dec 17, 2011
As a GPS systems architect I don't buy this explanation.
To make the GPS think is was somewhere else would be extremely difflcult, and certainly any country with the technology to achieve this would already be technically capable of developing their own drones.
To achieve this feat would require generation of multiple PN codes with nanosecond accuracy for code phase, and picosecond accuracy for carrier phase, but these would have to be compensated in real time for the true position of the drone. GPS simulators, e.g. spirent are capable of faking a set of signals for a known position / track, but not in real time responding to the drones true position.
it's not impossible, but if you can do it then you're clever enough not to need to.
stripeless_zebra
1.7 / 5 (11) Dec 17, 2011
If it had an engine failure it would have crashed. Certainly it wouldn't look as good as it does. Even if it can glide in this does not provide it with a level landing field.



Above is a complete nonsense! This aircraft is a slow flyer with a low wing load factor and high airfoil thickness. It's a self stable flying wing made entirely of composites. Such design provides a good gliding ratio and definitely it can always make a powerless landing without any damage.

It is like a big RC FPV plane. It's Autonomous Navigational System has limited capabilities as it was design to be actively remotely controlled all the times. The ANS system only kicks in if it experiences loss of communication or other major system malfunction. In such cases the onboard computer starts to maintain a pre programmed flight path - usually in such situations the autopilot maintains speed, altitude and heading.
kochevnik
Dec 17, 2011
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
stripeless_zebra
2.2 / 5 (13) Dec 17, 2011
Until the link with the drone is restored. Such systems have highly reliable electronics and intelligent software. Fooling it to land in a different place it totally and absolutely IMPOSSIBLE! It would NEVER EVER skip the programmed procedures and suddenly start thinking it's time to land. Why? The onboard computer logs hundreds of values such as horizontal and vert speed, altitude, coordinates, heading, times, etc. so it always knows its position and any abnormal values simply generate an error. For example if the last recorded distance from home was 250kms 10 sec ago it will not accept the landing command. Furthermore, the landing procedure is not performed by a satellite system but by a limited range ground based radio system located near the landing zone, something like an RC radio system!
stripeless_zebra
2.2 / 5 (13) Dec 17, 2011
And one more security system that can be found onboard is the Go Home mode of the autopilot. In case of a major system failure such as loss of communication after a pre programmed waiting time the computer issues the Go Home command based on the last recorded position it turns back and maintains direct heading towards the Home Zone allowing it to get into the range of the ground control system at the altitude of a few thousand feet. The only situation when this dragon would lose its ability to fly back home is an engine failure that kicks in the Fail Safe Mode and starts gliding in circles. When it gets down to a certain altitude or after a pre programmed waiting time the self destruction system starts frying the crucial components and secret stored data and software. Everything that remains is no secret at all. Such aircraft can be built from easily available components incl. engines, avionics etc.
stripeless_zebra
2.4 / 5 (14) Dec 17, 2011
How do I know that? No! I'm not an Iranian engineer:)

And they covered the bottom of the drone with stupid propaganda banners to hide the damage it suffered from the belly landing.
stripeless_zebra
2.2 / 5 (13) Dec 17, 2011
With Iranian technology, no. With Russian, or maybe even Chinese help... maybe. A systems failure without a crash? hahahahahaa no.


I could build this airframe in my backyard from easily available components incl engines and mechanical equipment install the best FPV and RC systems and have in the air a few miles from home. It's been done by modellers around the world countless times. Give me more sophisticated navigational systems and I could fly it hundreds of miles away. And finally give me a military grade electronics and I could send you pictures of nudist beaches in Iran, ha, ha, ha!

A system failure without a crash. YES! Have you ever heard of Fail Safe mode on remotely controlled planes? A complete loss of power or communication puts the plane into a pre programmed flight path. Same features are found on all drones and military drones are just one category of them.

dweeb
1 / 5 (6) Dec 17, 2011
"Military Intelligence" defined again .

how many fail conditions before inertial guidance maneuvers for stratospheric homing reacquisition or triggers auto destruct ?

thermite at a minimum ?
stripeless_zebra
2.2 / 5 (13) Dec 17, 2011
Well, the drone looks unscratched; so, the story seems plausible.


My Lord, I wish I was able to jump to conclusions so easily! I hope you're not a brain surgeon!
Have you had a chance to take a look at the belly of the drone? Probably not as they made sure it was well hidden from the view.
Pirouette
1.6 / 5 (14) Dec 17, 2011
Yeah. . . .and Ahmadinejad on the beach right in the middle of a bevy of beauties in bikinis. :) plus the Imam holding a brew
Pirouette
1.8 / 5 (15) Dec 17, 2011
Well, the drone looks unscratched; so, the story seems plausible.


My Lord, I wish I was able to jump to conclusions so easily! I hope you're not a brain surgeon!
Have you had a chance to take a look at the belly of the drone? Probably not as they made sure it was well hidden from the view.

I saw it and I noticed that it seemed to be caved in a bit. Did you see that?
stripeless_zebra
1.9 / 5 (12) Dec 17, 2011
As a GPS systems architect I don't buy this explanation.


The primary GPS based navigational system is backed up by an Autonomic Navigational System that kicks in and maintains pre programmed flight parameters based on the last recorded position before the loss of comm or GPS signal. As you said, it is highly improbable they were able to fake the GPS signals. But even if they managed to keep the GPS bandwith jammed the ANS will not allow them to take over the control of the drone as it is a "read only" system that executes only the stored procedures. Also time warping to force the drone to think it is in a Home Zone is impossible as it logs hundreds of flight parameters and anything received that does not match the flight record is ignored. The other thing is to get access to is its landing system. As far as I know it uses conventional manual landing system similar to RC planes and the computer will only activate it if dozens of certain conditions are satisfied.
stripeless_zebra
2.6 / 5 (15) Dec 17, 2011
I saw it and I noticed that it seemed to be caved in a bit. Did you see that?


YES! If they had an unscratched machine the would show the whole beauty of this American design and parade it with the landing gear down. It's simple like that. The problem is it belly landed and the bottom might have suffered a substantial damage that would certainly indicate a major component failure not a triumphant takeover of the United States property.
The_P
1 / 5 (2) Dec 17, 2011
yeah i really doubt those things run strictly on GPS
holoman
2.4 / 5 (11) Dec 17, 2011
The P

The Iranian story is really funny. It now shows how little
they know.

You are correct, if GPS lost it still knows its position.

Iranians are so full of erroneous reporting its really
not worth reading.

The US Government will be billing the Iranian nation for hundreds of Billions of Dollars for the non-return.

By the time they figure the technology out the US will be
into more advanced technology making the technology as
useful as a buggy whip.

mrlewish
3.5 / 5 (6) Dec 17, 2011
What I don't like here regardless of the various theories of how the drone was captured is the contempt voiced by some of you of the possible technical prowess of non American scientist. Disparaging the Iranians with insults as to their abilities or rather lack of abilities it petty, demeaning and ad hominem attack not based on fact much less in reality. Just because the US and Iran are nominally enemies does not mean that they are incompetent or stupid. To assume so is to set yourself up for a rude awakening at best, like planes which aren't yours flying over your harbor, at worst they just buy the harbor from you because your up to your neck in debt... I am not a religious person at all but I must paraphrase the bible "pride cometh before the fall" beware your arrogance.
CapitalismPrevails
1.6 / 5 (14) Dec 17, 2011
GPS jammed or not. I was was imbarrassed when Pres. Obama politely asked Iran to return the stealth drone. Why not just stop being timid, grow a pair, and bomb the drone when it landed in Iran?

mrlewish, so what are you saying exactly? Just let Iran build nuclear weapon which they probably already have? Just let them fund Hezbollah and Hamas? Just let them rig fraud elections?
FrankHerbert
1 / 5 (54) Dec 18, 2011
Why not just stop being timid, grow a pair, and bomb the drone when it landed in Iran?


You know you're talking about the man that gave the order to take out the Somali pirates rescuing hostages and... you know... Osama bin Laden, right? He also just decisively ended the Iraq war literally minutes ago. It's over. That takes balls when dealing with violent morons like you.

You've forgot about bin Laden already? Maybe you should grow a pair and admit to yourself your entire ideology is intellectually and morally bankrupt and you might just put yourself on the path to becoming a decent person.

imbarrassed

hehehe
stripeless_zebra
1.7 / 5 (11) Dec 18, 2011
Disparaging the Iranians with insults as to their abilities or rather lack of abilities it petty, demeaning and ad hominem attack not based on fact much less in reality.


Nobel Prize laureates:

Iran: 2 - Peace and Literature

United States: 333

Dear Mr. Lewish,

Sorry but your comments did not convinced me they have the abilities and that's pretty much based on facts. Do you really think we should let them play with nuclear power without supervision?
kochevnik
1.3 / 5 (8) Dec 18, 2011
@CapitalismImpales Just let them fund Hezbollah and Hamas?
Of course they're helping. They'd be insane if they weren't. If somebody invades the country next door, any state worth mentioning has to act. If Mexico got invaded by China, you better believe the U.S. would react. You would lynch any president who didn't.
@CapitalismImpales Just let them rig fraud elections?
They're just becoming Americanized. Wasn't that your goal?
stripeless_zebra
1.4 / 5 (10) Dec 18, 2011
imbarrassed


hehehe


You've forgot


hehehe

FrankHerbert
0.9 / 5 (52) Dec 18, 2011
I know how to spell forgotten :) I must admit though, on every standardized test I've ever taken, spelling was the only area I never scored in the 99th percentile. IIRC I was in the 95th percentile in spelling. Not my forte :)
stripeless_zebra
2.6 / 5 (15) Dec 18, 2011
If Mexico got invaded by China,...


The US has already been invaded by China. Have you ever shopped at Walmart?
david_king
2 / 5 (12) Dec 18, 2011
This particular surveillance drone model uses technology that was developed about 20 years ago. I think it's safe to say Iran won't be learning many new tricks. Regarding the USA's right to getting it's hardware back -"What the hell was your country doing straying under OUR drone?"
mrlewish
1.8 / 5 (6) Dec 18, 2011

Nobel Prize laureates:

Iran: 2 - Peace and Literature

United States: 333

Dear Mr. Lewish,

Sorry but your comments did not convinced me they have the abilities and that's pretty much based on facts. Do you really think we should let them play with nuclear power without supervision?


That is my point. If I were a small country facing one as large as the U.S. and many of the people in the that country held me and my country in contempt.. I would try like hell to figure out how to produce a nuclear weapon. If you don't want an enemy don't treat someone like one.
kochevnik
1.6 / 5 (10) Dec 18, 2011
The US has already been invaded by China. Have you ever shopped at Walmart?
LOL Wallie Mart tried to enter Moscow but it was too tough for them. Besides we boarder China no need for Yankee middlemen. Chinamen come to us.
FrankHerbert
1 / 5 (57) Dec 18, 2011
Iran developing a nuclear weapon would actually be a good thing for the US and probably even Israel. Nuclear powers don't go to war. Can they beat the clock?
stripeless_zebra
1.4 / 5 (9) Dec 18, 2011
This particular surveillance drone model uses technology that was developed about 20 years ago.


...and this statement is based on what sources?
Pirouette
1.5 / 5 (15) Dec 18, 2011
A lot of Americans have stopped buying goods made in China even though the label is an American company. People have started to look at the back of the box to see where these products were made. More often than not, it's "Made in China". If they can't find something made in America, then they will choose made in Taiwan, Korea, Japan. . anywhere else but China. For many Americans it's a sense of national pride; for others, it's more like getting even; and yet others don't like the quality of the products.
It's very difficult now to start a business in the U.S. thanks to Obummer.
FrankHerbert
1 / 5 (55) Dec 18, 2011
What is more difficult systemically about starting a business now compared to before Obama was president?
Pirouette
1.4 / 5 (13) Dec 18, 2011
The US has already been invaded by China. Have you ever shopped at Walmart?
LOL Wallie Mart tried to enter Moscow but it was too tough for them. Besides we boarder China no need for Yankee middlemen. Chinamen come to us.

@kochevnik the Bolshevik. . . .how did you like that calendar gal link I gave you, eh? A Russian babe . . .and hot. Did you like it?
:)
stripeless_zebra
1.7 / 5 (11) Dec 18, 2011
Nuclear powers don't go to war. Can they beat the clock?


My dear! You're a genius! Let's give nuclear arsenals to every country and we will never see any nation at war with another. You're my bet for the 2012 Peace Nobel Prize winners:)
Pirouette
1 / 5 (9) Dec 18, 2011
Here it is again in case you missed it.

http://www.telegr...dar.html
stripeless_zebra
1 / 5 (7) Dec 18, 2011
A lot of Americans have stopped buying goods made in China even though the label is an American company.


Making statements like the above assures me that you are one of a lot of Americans that buy china and aren't even aware of this. Did you know that domestic cars are on average only 70-75% made in the USA? Guess where the rest of it comes from?
FrankHerbert
0.9 / 5 (55) Dec 18, 2011
Nuclear powers don't go to war. Can they beat the clock?


My dear! You're a genius! Let's give nuclear arsenals to every country and we will never see any nation at war with another. You're my bet for the 2012 Peace Nobel Prize winners:)


How 'bout just the ones that paleocons want to invade?
stripeless_zebra
1.2 / 5 (9) Dec 18, 2011
How 'bout just the ones that paleocons want to invade?


No difference. You're still my candidate for the Peace Nobel Prize:)
c_heater
5 / 5 (1) Dec 18, 2011
about a month ago i read a story about security issues with the drone software. maybe the Iranians sent a version of the suxtent worm back home?
Vendicar_Decarian
1.9 / 5 (9) Dec 18, 2011
"GPS jammed or not. I was was imbarrassed when Pres. Obama politely asked Iran to return the stealth drone." - CapitalismFails

Obama should have apologized profusely for violating Iranian Air Space.

Who do you pieces of Garbage think you are?

Vendicar_Decarian
2.5 / 5 (8) Dec 18, 2011
"A lot of Americans have stopped buying goods made in China even though the label is an American company." - Spirochete

Ya, the Wallmart, Target, and all of the other American stores are empty.

"It's very difficult now to start a business in the U.S. thanks to Obummer." - Spirochete

Really? What Rules has Obama changed that make it so difficult?

Like so many of your Libertarian Claims, we can assume what you say is a lie until you show otherwise.

I have never encountered a Libertarian who wasn't a congenital and perpetual liar.

Vendicar_Decarian
2.1 / 5 (7) Dec 18, 2011
"If you don't want an enemy don't treat someone like one." - Mrlew

Wise, moral, and ethical words.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.1 / 5 (7) Dec 18, 2011
"Either the story is full of wholes or our design of these things is sorely half-baked." - jbdtern

It is just another wonderful illustration of American Military Incompetence.

Five years ago Al-Quada was using a $20 software package purchased from Russia off the net to view the video that these drones were streaming back to their controllers, thereby enabling them to watch the watchers.

American Military intelligence seems to have fallen since then.

Vendicar_Decarian
1.9 / 5 (9) Dec 18, 2011
"Do you really think we should let them play with nuclear power without supervision?" - Stripeless

That is what the IAEA is for.

I for one wish Iran great success in it's nuclear power program.

The world needs more nuclear reactors right?
Husky
3 / 5 (2) Dec 18, 2011
While I am somewhat critical of the iranian regime,
asking the drone back is the ultimate facepalm.
Its like a burglar calling you the next day that he want to pick up some tools that he left in your house, anyway the iranians unable to show the undercarriage seems to indicate that whatever really happened, it was not full control of the drone, This leaves open other scenarios:
- GPS spoofing (hard to pull off, would probably need Russian or Chinese backing)
- system failure of the drone
- it could even be brought down with one of those old american F4 fighters that iran has, its not really a super duper stealth drone, it is good enough for taliban, but any country with medium tech radar and fighter could gho after it

As usual the iranian regime puts out bombastic statement as if they have written their own stuxnet to gain control over drones, their prop machina would want you to believe that iranian airforce has flying carpets...
antialias_physorg
2.3 / 5 (3) Dec 18, 2011
To make the GPS think is was somewhere else would be extremely difflcult,

Paul Kintner of Cornell University did this in 2008 and said the apparatus could be made as cheap as 1000$. He did it inadvertently while simulating effects of solar storms on GPS navigation.

definitely it can always make a powerless landing without any damage.

But if it wasn't guided it had no landing strip. Certainly it can glide in - but have you seen what happens to a glider that goes down in just any old terrain? Iran isn't flat.

But all of this is besides the point. They have it and now they're going to pick it apart. Just one way of having a technology transfer, I guess.
Nanobanano
1.9 / 5 (12) Dec 18, 2011
"If you don't want an enemy don't treat someone like one." - Mrlew

Wise, moral, and ethical words.


Actually, that's incredibly naive and foolish words.

People tend to be enemies just for the hell of it, or for no real reason at all, other than prejudice. Think of Hitler massacring Jews.

Personally, I'm starting to think Obama and our military leaders have committed treason in delivering our technology to the Iranians; this was, otherwise, too easy and too incompetent to be real.
jsn3604
2 / 5 (2) Dec 18, 2011
I wonder if the US planned for us to be on boards like this and harping over ever little detail of the incident.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (9) Dec 18, 2011
So either the yank drone was STUPID, OR it was given to the iranians in order for them to build dodgey drones. Much like the brits let the russians get hold of conchord plans, which led to the russians crashing all of their home built conchords!!!!
No, more like why Britain gave the soviets rolls Royce jet engines shortly after the war - so they could build MiGs which were worthy competition. Thereby spurring the west to further improve.

Iran has a very healthy drone program, routinely sending them into Iraqi airspace. They are providing worthy competition with aiding and abetting from the west. This is how it is DONE.
stripeless_zebra
2.1 / 5 (11) Dec 18, 2011
This leaves open other scenarios:
- GPS spoofing (hard to pull off, would probably need Russian or Chinese backing)
- system failure of the drone


And you think you know this technology enough to educate us, eh? The GPS system is backed up with ANS and compares data with logs. "Time and space warping" can easily be detected by software. Practically the drone is only prone to a loss of engine and limited gliding ability greatly reduces the chances of flying it back to a Safety Zone.

- it could even be brought down with one of those old american F4 fighters that iran has, its not really a super duper stealth drone, it is good enough for taliban, but any country with medium tech radar and fighter could gho after it


First thing is to spot it and they DO NOT have radars capable of it. This aircraft maintains an alt of 15k ft and is made of composites which makes it transparent to Iranian radars. Making a visual contact from a fighter jet? What are the chances, tell me.
stripeless_zebra
1.4 / 5 (9) Dec 18, 2011
"This aircraft maintains an alt of 15k ft"
15000 meters of course, my mistake.
Nanobanano
1.3 / 5 (12) Dec 18, 2011
First thing is to spot it and they DO NOT have radars capable of it.


Are you sure? Or is that just propaganda our military wishes you to believe?

Stealth technology was known to be less-than-perfect even in the first Gulf War, so they ended up using radar jammers to help mask the stealth bomber's signature.
stripeless_zebra
2.1 / 5 (11) Dec 18, 2011
Iran has a very healthy drone program...


And I also have a very healthy drone programme and own a few highly sophisticated FPV planes. I built my own large scale composite RC sailplanes with wingspan over 4 meters from scratch. I know composite technology, vacuum molding and my background is in electronics. I can tell you my friend, if I had the money and the need to built my own drone I could do it in my backyard and there are at least hundreds of hobbyists worldwide that are able of it. And advanced navigational drone systems are commercially available. The problem is to get a military grade electronics and Iran does not have it. They got the RQ-170 with self destructed avionics, so they only have a nice RC plane, that's it. Slightly damaged but as you can see, their engineers already repaired the broken right wing with some duct tape, painted it with some household grade paint and brush, ha, ha, ha!
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.3 / 5 (12) Dec 18, 2011
The problem is to get a military grade electronics and Iran does not have it.
Sure it does. We just gave it to them just in time for Xmas. Along with some favorable propaganda which makes them look like a worthy adversary to the west to their own people, who will need some confidence in this respect in order to participate enthusiastically in the next war.

AND it gives the west something to fear just when the Iraq war ends and everybody wants to cut budgets, especially R&D. PR is part of the peacetime deception I was referring to. Just like democrats and republicans, both sides will give each other ammunition in order to maintain a close race. Because it is most important that the people believe in the Illusion.

The first priority of either side is to maintain the Illusion. How else will you get the people to divide up and engage each other in conflict? The people are the true enemy of Leaders everywhere.
stripeless_zebra
2.3 / 5 (12) Dec 18, 2011
Are you sure? Or is that just propaganda our military wishes you to believe?


The RQ-170s have made countless missions over the Iranian territory since its introduction around 2005 and probably there is another RQ-170 drone or drones flying over Iran as we have this conversation.
I'm pretty sure they do not have the needed radars otherwise this drone would've been shot down. Russians probably have such systems but not for sale.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.4 / 5 (13) Dec 18, 2011
@VD
Your posturing and your bluster does not lead you to any greater understanding of how and why things happen. The US is only a smaller Part of a much larger Whole.

There are no sides left in this world. There is only one Side - EMPIRE - and it is dedicated to waging war against the people by dividing them up and setting them against each other in Manageable and Constructive ways, in order to maintain overall Stability so that Progress can ensue. As we can see that it has, and it does, and it WILL. Stasis is extinction and this is not an option.

This explains everything. Your bile is only a symptom of your thorough indoctrination. Dupe.
Riff
3.3 / 5 (3) Dec 18, 2011
From Wiki...

To prevent unauthorized users from using or potentially interfering with the military signal through a process called spoofing, it was decided to encrypt the P-code. To that end the P-code was modulated with the W-code, a special encryption sequence, to generate the Y-code. The Y-code is what the satellites have been transmitting since the anti-spoofing module was set to the "on" state. The encrypted signal is referred to as the P(Y)-code.

The details of the W-code are kept secret, but it is known that it is applied to the P-code at approximately 500 kHz,[citation needed] which is a slower rate than that of the P-code itself by a factor of approximately 20. This has allowed companies to develop semi-codeless approaches for tracking the P(Y) signal, without knowledge of the W-code itself.[citation needed]
Riff
3 / 5 (3) Dec 18, 2011
Oh sorry, that's from Wiki 'GPS Signals'. But I hardly think they leave it at that.
Nanobanano
1.9 / 5 (15) Dec 18, 2011
Who really controls the U.S. government?

It's clear Obama is little more than a spokesperson: a puppet for the secret shadow government.

Is there a "Palpatine" in the background, playing all sides from the middle?
Noumenon
4.3 / 5 (58) Dec 18, 2011
Iran developing a nuclear weapon would actually be a good thing for the US and probably even Israel. Nuclear powers don't go to war. Can they beat the clock? FrankHubris


Yea, because everyone knows that nothing could possibly go wrong with a nuclear arms race in the middle east ruled by religious fanatics. Ya, am sure that Israel are praying for Iran to get a nuke, so that they can live in peace, finally.

Imbecile.
Noumenon
4.2 / 5 (60) Dec 18, 2011
You know you're talking about the man that gave the order to take out the Somali pirates rescuing hostages and... you know... Osama bin Laden, right? - FrankHubris


The decision to take out bin-laden could have been made by a 3rd grader.

The Somali pirates rescuing hostages situation was purely political posturing on the part of Obama, because it was in the media,... otherwise it never would have landed on his desk.
MIBO
4 / 5 (4) Dec 18, 2011
stripeless zebra,
yes, it's possible to make GPS get an error in position, but that's completely different from making it compute that it's in a position that you choose, and when it's moving at high velocity this is even more difficult.
Additionaly, GPS antennas tend to be somewhat directional, so to overcome the signal when transmitting from the ground is even more difficult.
Then there's the small issue of the navigation solution using RTK information as well as GPS, when these don't agree how do you make it prefer the GPS solution and discard the RTK information?.
If I were building such a drone you can bet that it would not be that simple, and I don't doubt that the US engineers have exactly the same principles in mind when they design drones that are likely to be subject to jamming attempts. If the GPS cannot be trusted I would use the RTK information to re-trace the path to a safe area until GPS could be re-acquired and match the RTK data.
Argiod
1.3 / 5 (11) Dec 18, 2011
Let's get real here, folks. Only a few weeks or so before the drone was downed, there was a report in the news of a control station in the US that had been infected with a virus that recorded keystrokes as drones were being controlled.

Now they would have us believe that they brought our drone down with such a lame story?

It would have been much easier to simply override our signals with stronger signals, and pilot the drone to a landing wherever they pleased, using the same control commands we do. But, of course, they don't want to openly admit it was them who were hacking us; that might be construed as an act of espionage, and an incitement to war.

On the other hand, it has been suggested that we deliberately allowed them to capture a drone, so that we could verify who hacked us; and of course, from the GPS information transmitted back to us from the drone, we now know where their 'secret retro-engineering base' is.

Of course, this is just my opinion; I could be wrong
jmlvu
1.6 / 5 (7) Dec 18, 2011
My bet is the self destruct was never tested. (Too expensive)
The GPS engineer probably didn't have access to the flight control documents and some general now has consulting job with the company that build the defective hardware.

It is my belief that the Navy's nuclear fleet uses diesel, steal doesn't work and they never fly the B2 because it can't fly. This is just the nature of a capitalist build military.
tigger
1 / 5 (3) Dec 18, 2011
It's all quite lulzy if you ask me... all aboard the US fail boat :-)
Vendicar_Decarian
1.8 / 5 (5) Dec 18, 2011
"If you don't want an enemy don't treat someone like one." - Mrlew

Wise, moral, and ethical words.

"Actually, that's incredibly naive and foolish words." - Nano

And that is why you will always be a failure as a person and a nation.
Vendicar_Decarian
2 / 5 (4) Dec 18, 2011
Of course, they couldn't have landed it anywhere but right next to their top secret spy central.

It occurs to me that since the Iranians are smart enough to pluck an American drone out of the sky, they are probably smart enough not to land it at spy central.

Ya think? Sparkie?

Obviously not.

"and of course, from the GPS information transmitted back to us from the drone, we now know where their 'secret retro-engineering base' is." - Argoid
Vendicar_Decarian
2 / 5 (4) Dec 18, 2011
Yes of course, RTK doesn't determine absolute position, but determines the position within a region defined by the course GPS signal.

GPS gives you your location accurate to several meters, and then RTK provides the high resolution offset from that position.

"Then there's the small issue of the navigation solution using RTK information as well as GPS, when these don't agree how do you make it prefer the GPS solution and discard the RTK information?." - MIBO
Vendicar_Decarian
2 / 5 (4) Dec 18, 2011
"The decision to take out bin-laden could have been made by a 3rd grader." - NoumenTard

It was made by a third grader. War Criminal and Mass Murderer George W. Bush Jr.
Skepticus_Rex
1.3 / 5 (16) Dec 18, 2011
GPS jammed or not. I was was imbarrassed when Pres. Obama politely asked Iran to return the stealth drone. Why not just stop being timid, grow a pair, and bomb the drone when it landed in Iran?


The best way to make people want to hang onto something you have 'lost' in their yard is to ask for it back. I'm sure Obama has his reasons. :)
singhook
1 / 5 (1) Dec 18, 2011
My first reaction is what was the drone doing their? deploying it against a civilized society is not like the past theaters of operation or deployment against innocent civilians. people that have minds are most certainly going to defeat this technology. I can tell you their are many systems abroad that will easily detect this sort of intrusion. if I were the operator of this drone I would be concerned about the shame involved with wasting two trillion dollars on the drone the entire design of it including the engine is no loss in technology nor is it to benefit any civilized intelligent nation it is a disgrace to the country of orgion and the prime operator of the machine those flying wings are a joke in their self and to couple them with stealth which is always a totally useless platform it can be detected and fly's like crap and can carry no useful payload nor operate at decent speeds basically a big disgrace and a peace of junk as you can see here.
Telekinetic
1.8 / 5 (10) Dec 18, 2011
By sheer cleverness, a Goliath can be felled by a much smaller entity. This incident is an illustration of how might doesn't always prevail. It forces us to look at who we've allied ourselves with- namely China, whose violation of the human rights of their own people and Tibet is shameful, yet we support them with our commerce. If we look at Iran and other oil producing countries as a Goliath, how easy, really, it would be to disable them with an alternative energy economy, provided that our own oil business Goliaths allow it to develop.
Telekinetic
2 / 5 (12) Dec 18, 2011
"The decision to take out bin-laden could have been made by a 3rd grader." - NoumenTard

It was made by a third grader. War Criminal and Mass Murderer George W. Bush Jr.

Here's where you're wrong, VD- George Bush, Jr. and Bush senior promised the Bin Laden family they would never touch a hair on Osama's head. Why? The Bushes and the Bin Ladens made zillions for each other, so, if the son of your business partner burned down your barn, are you going to forget who made you zillions by punishing the barnburner? It took another administration to exact vengeance.
Skepticus_Rex
1.3 / 5 (16) Dec 18, 2011
Yet there appears to be no panic in the military or aerospace industry about any loss of stealth or advanced intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) technology in the crash.

The Iranians dont have the ability to reverse-engineer it, and there was no fancy [ISR] technology on board, says a veteran intelligence specialist with insight into the program.

http://www.aviati...;prev=10
stripeless_zebra
1.8 / 5 (10) Dec 18, 2011
It was made by a third grader. War Criminal and Mass Murderer George W. Bush Jr.


If you think you live in a country ran by tyrants you can always immigrate to a country of your choice where you can find freedom and happiness. I think you'd prefer Iran or Afghanistan. In the communist times East Europeans were faced with the same dilemma often risking their lives or lives of their relatives illegally crossing the borders. I think you will not leaving the US, will you? It's time you start planning your future or waste the rest of your life in Texas.
ryggesogn2
2.1 / 5 (15) Dec 18, 2011
"Yesterday, Ambrose Carey, the brother of the British woman who married Salem, described the family as "decent and respectable" people who had not been in contact with Osama since the early 1990s.

"He brought enormous shame on the family and for that he has been ostracised," he said. "My sister leads a quiet, unflashy existence in a beautiful house in Cairo and, along with the rest of the family, I know she is appalled at what has happened.""
http://www.telegr...ily.html
By Telek's 'logic', Osama should be held to account for his illegal immigrant aunt in Boston.
KingDWS
5 / 5 (1) Dec 19, 2011
Well, the drone looks unscratched; so, the story seems plausible.

Actually you can see rather a lot of damage along the leading edges of the wings as well as the port wing being distinctly bent. As far as the bunting around the base I would suspect it hides rather a lot more damage they cannot disguise. I would suspect the only real involvement the Iranians had was the fact they control the ground it crashed on. The only really sensitive parts would have been sensors not the "carcass". Even the control electronics are not that sensitive. For example look inside a modern and brand new air data computer and you find the chip used is a Z-80 which was state of the art in 1976.
stripeless_zebra
1.8 / 5 (10) Dec 19, 2011
I would suspect the only real involvement the Iranians had was the fact they control the ground it crashed on.


As I said before the most probable cause of the crash is an engine failure. The avionics used on these drones are very reliable and secure. The Iranian claims are a bunch of lies and simply reflect the state of their technical culture and their lack of education. Bunch of retards trying to get their hands on nuclear technology!
TheSpiceIsLife
3.8 / 5 (4) Dec 19, 2011
To summarise all the comments so far:

1. The drone is nothing more than a large RC plane
2. Both governments are lying
3. The world is controlled by oil tycoons and warmongers

Righteo
antialias_physorg
1 / 5 (1) Dec 19, 2011
Maybe look at the design of flying wings. They are not stable without power. Unlikely that they can glide in after an engine fault.

http://en.wikiped...tability

The shape of these drones (and of other stealth craft) is dictated by the stealth requirements. Unassisted gliding ability is not part of the package.

For comparison look at what a UAV looks like that is designed to glide well (i.e. one designed for range instead of stealth):
http://en.wikiped...bal_Hawk
Vendicar_Decarian
1.8 / 5 (5) Dec 19, 2011
The most probable cause of the remote landing was the Iranian Electronics countermeasures.

The most probable cause of the disinformation from "stripeless" is embarrassment over yet another American military failure.

"As I said before the most probable cause of the crash is an engine failure." - Stripeless

Vendicar_Decarian
2 / 5 (4) Dec 19, 2011
Yes, that is my advice to Libertarian Whiners.

As for myself, I am no longer an American. I left several decades ago, when it became obvious that Republicans and Libertarians were plotting and acting to destroy the nation.

"If you think you live in a country ran by tyrants you can always immigrate to a country of your choice where you can find freedom and happiness" - Stripeless

As to the nature of Republican Tyrants, I note that Republican Newt Gingrich has just defended his public claim that if judges don't rule as Repubicans wish, Republicans have the right to have them arrested by a Congressional security force.

Vendicar_Decarian
2 / 5 (4) Dec 19, 2011
As all Moral, Thinking people do, I think the world will be a much better place once Corrupt American state has been Eradicated and the War Criminals of the Bush Administration are brutally executed for their crimes against humanity.

I am sure we agree on this fact.

"I think you'd prefer Iran or Afghanistan. In the communist times East Europeans were faced with the same dilemma often risking their lives or lives of their relatives illegally crossing the borders." - Stripeless
Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Dec 19, 2011
The corruption in the Republian party is so extensive, that I wouldn't be surprised by your claim at all.

If your claim is true, I would expect it to be made public by the Democrats.

Do you have any evidence for your assertion?

"Here's where you're wrong, VD- George Bush, Jr. and Bush senior promised the Bin Laden family they would never touch a hair on Osama's head." - Telekenetic
Vendicar_Decarian
2 / 5 (4) Dec 19, 2011
"This incident is an illustration of how might doesn't always prevail." - Telekenetic

Might typically doesn't succeed in doing anything by providing a temporary victory for the mighty while those who have been victimized, gather strength in order to destroy the "mighty" through any and all means possible.

Iraq and Afghanistan are just the latest two examples of America's perpetual military failure.

Vendicar_Decarian
2.3 / 5 (3) Dec 19, 2011
Actually, it is the only way moral, civilized people behave.

Clearly Obama is moral and civilized, while you and your Conservative brethren, are not.

"The best way to make people want to hang onto something you have 'lost' in their yard is to ask for it back." - Skepticus Rex
vantagepointmoon
not rated yet Dec 19, 2011
Why don't these aircraft have self-destruct options on-board?
---
Just an idea, with self-destruct option drone is vulnerable to explosion if hacked, including while being in the hangar next to other equipment or personnel.
Vendicar_Decarian
1.8 / 5 (5) Dec 19, 2011
The stones will be found Dr. Jones. You vvont.

"Why don't these aircraft have self-destruct options on-board?" - Vantage
Fionn_MacTool
1.7 / 5 (12) Dec 19, 2011
"Clearly Obama is moral and civilized". This is the same Obama who ordered the assassination of Osama Bin Laden? What ever happened to due process in law and proper legal procedures?
Vendicar_Decarian
2 / 5 (4) Dec 19, 2011
""Clearly Obama is moral and civilized". This is the same Obama who ordered the assassination of Osama Bin Laden? " - Fionn

To the extent that BinLaden admitted to being behind the brilliant and exceptionally lucky attacks on the WTC, then yes, his execution was not an unreasonable or particularly immoral act.

Arrest would have been better. But arrest would have produced an ongoing security problem.

Arrest would have been preferred prior to the illegal invasion of Afghanistan and the war crimes committed by the U.S. that followed.
Vendicar_Decarian
2.6 / 5 (5) Dec 19, 2011
"What ever happened to due process in law and proper legal procedures?" - MacTool

The proper course of action would have been for BinLaden to provide evidence that he was not responsible rather than releasing video tapes indicating that he was.

Republican Lawmakers are now considering imprisoning their own citizens for life without trial in direct violation of the constitution, and Republican Lawmakers like Newt Gingrich are proposing that judges who do not rule as Newtie likes should be arrested.

BinLaden is the gift that just keeps on giving.

I salute him.
Fionn_MacTool
1.4 / 5 (10) Dec 19, 2011
"To the extent that BinLaden admitted to being behind the brilliant and exceptionally lucky attacks on the WTC" - Vendicar

Firstly, there is no hard evidence that Bin Laden was involved in the 911 attacks. How do I know this? Well, the FBI website doesn't even link him to the 911 attack - http://www.fbi.go...in-laden

Secondly he never admitted to the 911 attacks. In fact, he denied ever being involved. The only "evidence" was a video which has a man who doesn't even resemble Osama Bin Laden talk about the attacks. If you want to know more about this fraud, read this - http://www.twf.or...den.html

Perhaps for his other "crimes" you could try and argue that assassination, rather than justice by the codes of law that the US claims to be fighting to uphold, is preferable. I for one don't.
MIBO
5 / 5 (1) Dec 19, 2011
Vendicar_Decarian
If your RTK info says you're changing velocity / direction then the carrier phase measurements should agree. But if the signal you're receiving is not coming from the GPS satellites then they will not agree, in fact the system jamming the GPS needs to compensate for this by computing the expected carrier doppler and also compensating for the effect of the doppler imposed by the drones relative velocity to the transmitter, which needs to be done in real time.
Difficult enough with a target that has a good radar image, but given that these are stealth aircraft tracking the position and velocity in the first place accurately enough to be able to compute the required doppler is difficult enough.
Actually applying the required doppler to the signals and re-transmitting them in real time is much harder.
It's not like they carry a beacon that can be used for computing this information.
antialias_physorg
1 / 5 (1) Dec 19, 2011
Depends whether the system is ground based or they just sent a plane fitted with such a transmitter up to fly in formation with it. That would make it much easier.

Remember that those drones aren't invisible to the eyes (and also not entirely to radar. Once you know where they are you can track them - even if the radar image is low).
Pirouette
1.6 / 5 (13) Dec 19, 2011
Yes, that is my advice to Libertarian Whiners.

VendicartoonCharacter says:

As for myself, I am no longer an American. I left several decades ago, when it became obvious that Republicans and Libertarians were plotting and acting to destroy the nation.

"If you think you live in a country ran by tyrants you can always immigrate to a country of your choice where you can find freedom and happiness" - Stripeless

As to the nature of Republican Tyrants, I note that Republican Newt Gingrich has just defended his public claim that if judges don't rule as Repubicans wish, Republicans have the right to have them arrested by a Congressional security force.



Vendicartoon has MISQUOTED Newt Gingrich. Newt said that if judges IGNORE Congressional requests for information, he would have them arrested. It has nothing to do with judges "ruling" according to either Party's wishes.
Pirouette
1.6 / 5 (14) Dec 19, 2011
VendicartoonCharacter says:

Actually, it is the only way moral, civilized people behave.

Clearly Obama is moral and civilized, while you and your Conservative brethren, are not.

"The best way to make people want to hang onto something you have 'lost' in their yard is to ask for it back." - Skepticus Rex


The only way Obama is moral and civilized is that he cares about and loves his wife and children. Apart from that, in the role of leader of a nation. his actions and words are all a display of immoral deceit as he betrays the whole concept of liberty, freedom and patriotism, while he introduces a continuous litany of class warfare and war against job-creating businesses, even while promoting government investments in favored businesses with dubious success potential, all payed for by the American taxpayer dollar.
A truly civilized leader does not divide the people of the country, but UNITES them. He has done NOTHING to unite the American people, only to degrade them.
Pirouette
1.4 / 5 (11) Dec 19, 2011
Pirouette
1.4 / 5 (11) Dec 19, 2011
Not only does the bill (described in the above link), in sections 1031 and 1032, declare the unconstitutional right to detain Americans indefinitely without trial, but ordinary Americans who OPPOSE the Obama administration's policies may be declared enemy combatants and indefinitely incarcerated, without trial or substantiated and valid charges, at Guantanamo. Obama will have the opportunity to get rid of his opponents, even with trumped-up charges.
Skepticus_Rex
1.2 / 5 (17) Dec 19, 2011
Clearly Obama is moral and civilized, while you and your Conservative brethren, are not.

If you were near me I'd kick your hind-end for calling me a conservative, ignoramus. You haven't the faintest idea about me. But, keep right on guessing. It'll do you no good.

By the way, if Obama is so civilized, why did he say what he did to other nations in his warning against their interference with Iraq? What of his invasion of Pakistani airspace? The list could go on...
NotAsleep
5 / 5 (2) Dec 19, 2011
I only got about 30 comments in but thought I'd drop a few generalized facts:

If a drone loses contact, it will autopilot and land back at home base. It will use both intertial and GPS references to return, as well as other technology. As I think many have pointed out, it's easy to jam GPS signals but difficult to jam real signals while transmitting believable false signals.

As for stealth: stealth is a relative term. Everything transmits and we still haven't invented a true blackbody (i.e., nothing in our inventory is truly radar-absorbant)

It is likely there was a self destruct mechanism on critical electronic systems, although my knowledge of drones is limited here. Normally, these systems are manually activated.

You'd be surprised at the things we DON'T consider secret. People think the military is shrouded in secrecy. Some things are. Most of the time, though, the rest of the world can't afford US tech production and MX costs so they'll never persue it anyway
FrankHerbert
0.9 / 5 (54) Dec 19, 2011
http://www.infowa...america/


Is it any surprise Pirouette would listen to this man as a voice of reason?

http://www.youtub...xDi0V_4A

... Obama will have the opportunity to get rid of his opponents, even with trumped-up charges.


This is the same BS that crazy liberals waged against Bush. Bush was a bad president, maybe a war criminal, but this? Not even Bush deserved this.

"The Paranoid Style"
http://karws.gso....yle.html
"It is hard to resist the conclusion that this enemy is on many counts the projection of the self; both the ideal and the unacceptable aspects of the self are attributed to him. The enemy may be the cosmopolitan intellectual, but the paranoid will outdo him in the apparatus of scholarship, even of pedantry. Secret organizations set up to combat secret organizations give the same flattery."
Telekinetic
1.4 / 5 (9) Dec 19, 2011
The corruption in the Republian party is so extensive, that I wouldn't be surprised by your claim at all.

If your claim is true, I would expect it to be made public by the Democrats.

Do you have any evidence for your assertion?

"Here's where you're wrong, VD- George Bush, Jr. and Bush senior promised the Bin Laden family they would never touch a hair on Osama's head." - Telekenetic

I don't have any "Wikileaks" memoranda, but this link, especially the "Historic Ties" section, says it all.
http://www.consor...711.html
Telekinetic
1.8 / 5 (10) Dec 19, 2011
Most galling about the Bushes is where their fortune originated- Grandfather Prescott Bush, a banker with close ties to the financing of Hitler and his war machine. He made huge profits from German industry during the war-
http://www.guardi...worldwar
stripeless_zebra
1 / 5 (7) Dec 19, 2011
They are not stable without power. Unlikely that they can glide in after an engine fault.


http://www.youtub...c2emtcvo

The RQ-170 has a limited natural directional stability due to the wingtip design dictated by low visibility requirements but it has gyros for improved stability and this thing can definitely make a nice powerless landing.
stripeless_zebra
1.4 / 5 (10) Dec 19, 2011
The most probable cause of the remote landing was the Iranian Electronics countermeasures


Tell us honestly, what do you think about the political situation in Iran?
stripeless_zebra
1.4 / 5 (10) Dec 19, 2011
As for myself, I am no longer an American. I left several decades ago,...


Aha, so you left America and went to... Texas as your Location shows and you surrendered your US passport to become a naturalized Texan. Is this weird or what?
Pirouette
1.4 / 5 (11) Dec 19, 2011
A lot of Americans have stopped buying goods made in China even though the label is an American company.


Making statements like the above assures me that you are one of a lot of Americans that buy china and aren't even aware of this. Did you know that domestic cars are on average only 70-75% made in the USA? Guess where the rest of it comes from?

Possibly Taiwan, Singapore, Indonesia, Philippines, Mexico, Ecuador, Japan, Yugoslavia, oh and yes, China.

Pirouette
1.4 / 5 (11) Dec 19, 2011
As for myself, I am no longer an American. I left several decades ago,...


Aha, so you left America and went to... Texas as your Location shows and you surrendered your US passport to become a naturalized Texan. Is this weird or what?

LOL. . . .he's a man about town and a citizen of the worldddd :)
I don't believe the Texas story for one minute.
stripeless_zebra
1.4 / 5 (10) Dec 19, 2011
Vendicartoon has MISQUOTED Newt Gingrich.


Thank you!
Now I fully understand his sympathy for the Iranian propaganda, ha, ha, ha.
Pirouette
1.4 / 5 (11) Dec 19, 2011
http://www.infowa...america/
"It is hard to resist the conclusion that this enemy is on many counts the projection of the self; both the ideal and the unacceptable aspects of the self are attributed to him. The enemy may be the cosmopolitan intellectual, but the paranoid will outdo him in the apparatus of scholarship, even of pedantry. Secret organizations set up to combat secret organizations give the same flattery."

Oh there goes FrankHerbfart stinking up the thread again with his brainfarts while invoking the name of Pirouette, as though he is the king of knowledge. Woe to all the rest of us members when FrankHerbfart decides to stink up the thread with his killer insults.
Damn, and I had just promised barakn that I would try to curb my nastiness. . . .when here comes old $hithead FrankH coming after me again. Dammit
Pirouette
1.4 / 5 (11) Dec 19, 2011
s it any surprise Pirouette would listen to this man as a voice of reason?

http://www.youtub...xDi0V_4A

... Obama will have the opportunity to get rid of his opponents, even with trumped-up charges.

This is the same BS that crazy liberals waged against Bush. Bush was a bad president, maybe a war criminal, but this? Not even Bush deserved this.

"The Paranoid Style"
http://karws.gso....yle.html
"It is hard to resist the conclusion that this enemy is on many counts the projection of the self; both the ideal and the unacceptable aspects of the self are attributed to him. The enemy may be the cosmopolitan intellectual, but the paranoid will outdo him in the apparatus of scholarship, even of pedantry. Secret organizations set up to combat secret organizations give the same flattery."
Pirouette
1.4 / 5 (11) Dec 19, 2011
ooops. . .guess that was more than 1000 characters. . .not all of his nonsense about me showed up
kochevnik
2 / 5 (12) Dec 19, 2011
To the extent that BinLaden admitted to being behind the brilliant and exceptionally lucky attacks on the WTC

He made no such admission. The fakers on the tapes looked remarkably different that Osama. Anyone who met him in person, as I did, would know. Keep in mind that Israel has an entire branch of mossad Arab impersonators called the SOF which infiltrates groups like Hamas and Hezbollah and steers them toward actions that cast a favorable international light on Israel. They have dozens of impersonators on hand for ever major Arab figure. Since Israelis undercover can fool Arabs themselves, fooling Americans is child's play.

He was busy depositing a billion dollars cash that your government gave him. He made everyone really happy that day. Guess you didn't get the memo? Well at least Americans got the bill. Wonder why your government is giving a $billion to a "terrorist"/employee?
Pirouette
1.4 / 5 (11) Dec 19, 2011
I predict that if Obama is reelected, Martial Law will be imposed on select parts of the country to protect members of the U.S. government under Komrade Obama. Already the nation is preparing for civil war; gun sales is at an all time high during Black Friday.
Pirouette
1.4 / 5 (9) Dec 19, 2011
Komrade Kochevnik. . . .the Israelis have been fooling Americans for decades. . . .while getting billions of dollars of our tax money to boot. . .that have spies in our government to make sure that Israel doesn't get shortchanged on intelligence matters. So what else is new? We're used to it. My objection would be if Palestine and Israel go at it in an all out war. . .young American boys will get called up to defend Israel. . .that's not so good
Pirouette
1.4 / 5 (9) Dec 19, 2011
All these years the Israelis have been building new settlements in occupied areas for Jewish settlers and then they bitch and moan because Palestinians want to kill them? If somebody entered my house, threw me out of the house, then leveled it to the ground and chased me and my family out of town and my job, i would be pissed too
kochevnik
1.4 / 5 (11) Dec 19, 2011
Already the nation is preparing for civil war; gun sales is at an all time high during Black Friday.
That isn't scheduled until 2071, which will be the 5th time the USA will declare bankruptcy to the Bank of England. The last civil war began the same year as America's second bankruptcy. Maybe on the 5th bankruptcy they will just stick a fork in it and be done.
Telekinetic
1.7 / 5 (10) Dec 19, 2011
" My objection would be if Palestine and Israel go at it in an all out war. . .young American boys will get called up to defend Israel. . .that's not so good"
You really think the Israeli's need U.S troops to bungle things? Since so many on this forum seem to get titillated by military toys, Israel has the best of them and sell the tech to the U.S. Sending U.S. troops to bail out Israel... HAH!
Pirouette
1.4 / 5 (10) Dec 19, 2011
No, Komerade Kochevnik. . .I'm afraid you're wrong. . .it will happen soon if and when the provocation is there to "stir the pot", so to speak. Martial Law could be one form of provocation. Another would be internment camps to hold the government's opposition if there are too many of us. . .there would be other reasons also
stripeless_zebra
1 / 5 (7) Dec 19, 2011
If a drone loses contact, it will autopilot and land back at home base.


Yes. But what about an engine failure deep within the enemy territory? Do you know how the system deals with this scenario?
Pirouette
1.4 / 5 (10) Dec 19, 2011
@Telekinetic. . . .reality is reality. . . .do you not understand the Israeli (Jewish) mentality that can be likened to the "Jewish mother"? The Israelis don't want THEIR sons and daughters (mostly the sons) dying in defense of their own country. They would rather have AMERICAN sons and daughters do it for them.
The only reason why Israel has the best military weapons is that America gave them the technology and they improved on it. We also gave them billions of dollars each year, sold them new war planes, for which they paid us back with the money we had given them already.
Ober
1.8 / 5 (5) Dec 19, 2011
@stripeless_zebra

Good to see an intelligent person getting involved on here.
This place has been full of mentally challenged ppl for awhile now.

I enjoyed every one of your above posts!!! Congrats Sir!!!!
Pirouette
1.4 / 5 (10) Dec 19, 2011
I have to admit that America is a fool when it comes to Israel. One of the main reasons is the close proximity to the OPEC countries. The other reason is that Evangelicals in the U.S. INSIST that we protect Israel because that is the holy land where Yeshua (aka Jesus) is from, and certainly, as it says in biblical dogma. . . .if the Jews aren't protected, woe to the others who let the Jews be annihilated. . .for the wrath of the lord will come down on us for not doing the dying for his chosen people.
Pirouette
1.4 / 5 (10) Dec 19, 2011
The fact that Iran is sworn to the destruction of Israel is not because of the jewish religion itself, since Islam is an offshoot of Judaism, but more to the point that the Israelis are push and aggressive in their behavior, dress immodestly, don't segregate the sexes except in yeshiva and temple, and are far better educated and have greater opportunity for advancement than do Palestinian Arabs. Also, the Palestinians are, in a way, racially motivated to hate the Jews, since Jews are mainly of Caucasian European stock (White folks) and look very different from the native Arab stock. Not all Palestinians are racially motivated to hate Jews, though. A lot of it is also because Muslim parents guard their daughters jealously and would rather kill their own child if they think the girl has brought dishonor to her family, to show other Muslims that they don't allow any hanky panky going on.
ryggesogn2
2.1 / 5 (14) Dec 19, 2011
Why shouldn't the USA, the leader of the free world, be a strong ally of the only representative democracy in the Middle East?

Considering how the West treated the Jews for centuries, supporting them is a refreshing change.
Pirouette
1.7 / 5 (12) Dec 19, 2011
Whereas Jewish girls go down to the beach wearing the skimpiest bikinis to show off their bodies, while Muslim men try to avert their eyes, all the while thinking that secular Jews are the devil and how they would love to rape and kill these young Jewish girls because they deserve it. Arab women are oppressed but are afraid to speak out because all the husband has to do is turn around 3 times, spit on the ground and say, "I divorce you". :) j/k
ryggesogn2
2.1 / 5 (14) Dec 19, 2011
Jews and Persians have a history of cooperation.
Now that the Persians are Muslim, they hate the Jews. What changed?

Muslim men try to avert their eyes,

You hint at something here. Muslims treat women the way they do because they, the Muslim men, are weak and must institutionalize their laws so as not to tempt the Muslim men.
Pirouette
1.6 / 5 (14) Dec 19, 2011
Rygg2. . .the REAL Jewish Talmud, not the fake one they give to the Christians to read, advises all Jews that it is perfectly fine for a Jew to cheat a non-Jew or even kill a non-Jew, but NEVER is a Jew to cheat or kill another Jew because THAT is a sin against God. There are many other admonishments that the Talmud tells about in a Jew's dealings with non-Jews. And don't forget that the Jewish law says that a child born of a non-Jewish mother, even if the father is Jewish, the child is NOT a Jew . . it's a matriarchal society only through lineage, in most everything else, the men rule.
Pirouette
1.6 / 5 (13) Dec 19, 2011
Yes, to Muslim men, it's a sin to gaze at a woman's body unless she is his wife, and any woman caught walking around with a man who is not her husband or a close relative is to be stoned.
But Jewish women are not treated that way by Jewish men. Muslim men think that all Jewish men are p_______y whipped by their women, a view that Jewish women reenforce by their aggressiveness, whether in the U.S. or in Israel
Pirouette
1.6 / 5 (13) Dec 19, 2011
I believe there are many Persian Jews still living in Iran, but they tend to keep a low profile as a means of preservation. If Ahmadinejad is originally an Iranian Jew, it could be that he was allowed to live in Iran because of some service that he or his family performed for Islam, but I'm not sure about this, so don't quote me. IF he ever steps out of line, they will kill him.
Pirouette
1.4 / 5 (11) Dec 19, 2011
Jews and Persians have a history of cooperation.
Now that the Persians are Muslim, they hate the Jews. What changed?

Muslim men try to avert their eyes,

You hint at something here. Muslims treat women the way they do because they, the Muslim men, are weak and must institutionalize their laws so as not to tempt the Muslim men.

You can blame it all on Mohammed, the Muslim prophet. He set forth his rules and regulations that he enforced during his lifetime with a lot of bloodshed to those who did not accept his Quran. Of course, a THINKING person could not accept such nonsense as is in the Quran, but a lot of superstitious Arabs took it on faith and not logic.
You are mistaken if you think that Muslim men are weak, they are quite strong because their FAITH is strong. Their faith in the teachings of Mohammed is stronger than the Communist faith in Mao, because it is a religion, not just an ideology.
Fionn_MacTool
1.6 / 5 (13) Dec 20, 2011
Islam, Judaism and Christianity each have their fair share of superstitious nonsense and thankfully, most educated people don't take them very seriously. If the internal policies of Israel reflect any religion though, it is probably the religion of tolerance that Christ tried to espouse. Europe through the enlightenment gave birth to Lady Liberty and it is her torch that now burns at the heart of the power centres of the world. Some men may see strong women as akin to being pussy whipped. The enlightened see it for what it is, Liberty and Power for all, and it is a battle we are winning.
Fionn_MacTool
1.5 / 5 (15) Dec 20, 2011
Haha, just checking on who keeps scoring my comments. FrankHerbert consistently marks me "1" without even responding to them. I suspect he is also logging on as "orac" who also has nothing better to do than follow me around and mark my comments "1". At least I know what I am saying must have some truth in it for such partisan behaviour. Nothing worse than ideologues. Thankfully, I am above that kind of behaviour, as I can rely on rational discussion :)
antialias_physorg
1 / 5 (2) Dec 20, 2011
but it has gyros for improved stability and this thing can definitely make a nice powerless landing.

If it has an airstrip - but if the engine failure scenario were true then it had none.

I highly doubt that they have the type of algorithms on board that can survey the landscape, decide where the terrain is level enough and make a controlled landing on any such available surface and then maneuver around to it - all while being unpowered.

As I said: Even if it COULD glide (which I think it can't) it had no level ground to land on. Certainly it would have stubbed its nose on an unpowered landing over rough terrain.

But from the little damage observable it looks like it made a controlled landing at an airstrip (maybe without its landing gear deployed. Can't see how scratched up it is on the underside).
This could only happen if it were guided there.
NotAsleep
not rated yet Dec 20, 2011
If a drone loses contact, it will autopilot and land back at home base.


But what about an engine failure deep within the enemy territory?

That depends. Due to the nature of the design, it COULD glide for a short way but it would need to keep a high angle of attack to maintain speed. Without a vertical stabilizer, it would rely entirely on forward momentum for course corrections. If the software wasn't prepared for this, it's possible the plane would put itself into a stalling spin almost instantly, which would allow for a relatively slow but immediate descent.

@ Antialias, the landscape algorithms do exist

A last thought: the engines provide primary power. If there wasn't a backup, it would run out of power very quickly (proportional to batteries, of course, and who wants lots of heavy batteries on their light plane?)
Vendicar_Decarian
1.8 / 5 (5) Dec 20, 2011
"Tell us honestly, what do you think about the political situation in Iran?" - Zebra

It is fine entertainment for everyone living outside of Iran, and a fine diversion for anyone living inside Iran.

Other than that, there is no significance.
stripeless_zebra
1.8 / 5 (10) Dec 20, 2011
Due to the nature of the design, it COULD glide for a short way but it would need to keep a high angle of attack to maintain speed.


I've been flying planes for decades and always and on any plane increasing the angle of attack always causes loss of speed and eventually leads to a stall. Maybe on your planet it works the opposite way. Do you have a degree in aerospace science?
stripeless_zebra
1.4 / 5 (9) Dec 20, 2011
Without a vertical stabilizer, it would rely entirely on forward momentum for course corrections.


Planes with vertical stabs also rely entirely on forward momentum. Basic aerodynamics...
stripeless_zebra
1.4 / 5 (9) Dec 20, 2011
If the software wasn't prepared for this, it's possible the plane would put itself into a stalling spin almost instantly, which would allow for a relatively slow but immediate descent.


This design has a good static and dynamic stability also assisted with gyros on three axis. That means if properly trimmed it's a self flying plane and when disturbed it has a natural tendency to return to a stable flight. That of course means it can maintain a stable gliding path without the operator input.
Here is an example of the flying wing that does not use gyros or computers. Airbrakes work similar to a rudder and it can land with both engines dead same like the RQ-170.
http://www.youtub...gYmNb2a8
stripeless_zebra
1.7 / 5 (12) Dec 20, 2011
Thank you kindly Mr. Herbert for your low rating. I would like to show my appreciation for your comments and for sharing your knowledge in this field :)
NotAsleep
not rated yet Dec 20, 2011
Angle of Attack is a reference to a downward angle... i.e. when attacking a ground target. Also, I should've specified that it requires "significant" forward velocity to maintain stability. See the wiki for more info on that, 1000 characters isn't enough:

http://en.wikiped...ing_wing

The design is extremely efficient but is absolutely unstable if it loses power, as any B-2 pilot could tell you. While it might be able to maintain a stable glide path under battery power, it would still need the correct software to do so.

Since no one here has detailed knowledge of the RQ-170, it's arguable that it even has traditional airbrakes. Really, anything in this discussion thread about the jet itself is entirely speculative
stripeless_zebra
1.7 / 5 (12) Dec 20, 2011
It is fine entertainment for everyone living outside of Iran, and a fine diversion for anyone living inside Iran.

Other than that, there is no significance.


I think, one can get more info from the North Korean propaganda than from your comments...
Vendicar_Decarian
1.7 / 5 (6) Dec 20, 2011
Don't get upset Zebra. You will get something right some day. Even if your comments are completely random.
stripeless_zebra
1.7 / 5 (12) Dec 20, 2011
Angle of Attack is a reference to a downward angle... i.e. when attacking a ground target.


Sir, the question is: do you raise the wing's AOA to maintain the airspeed or lower it?

Also, I should've specified that it requires "significant" forward velocity to maintain stability.


This aircraft flies at speeds well below the speed of sound, any expert can tell you that simply by looking at it. The thick airfoil and shape similar to Northrop flying wings determines its flying characteristics as self stabilizing.
The design is extremely efficient but is absolutely unstable if it loses power, as any B-2 pilot could tell you.

The B-2 is a completely diff beast! It requires active control inputs to stay in the air and without computers it falls down the skies like a barn door!
it would still need the correct software to do so.

NO! NO! This object has natural stability! Properly balanced and trimmed it maintains a safe gliding path without any power! That's it!

stripeless_zebra
1.8 / 5 (10) Dec 20, 2011
it's arguable that it even has traditional airbrakes.


Look closely at 0:34s. Do you know how traditional airbrakes look like?
http://www.youtub...vGszQhJw
stripeless_zebra
1.7 / 5 (11) Dec 20, 2011
Angle of Attack is a reference to a downward angle... i.e. when attacking a ground target.


Sorry but I really doubt you have any knowledge of aerodynamics.

http://insideraci...tack.htm
Telekinetic
1.7 / 5 (11) Dec 20, 2011
Gentlemen, Gentlemen, do be reasonable. We are all part of one side, after all. There is no need to bicker among yourselves because it's all a game, don't you see, a game where the outcome is decided not by mere mortals such as us, but by one figure who embodies a keen sensibility who we must call upon to settle our disputes-
UMPIRE...
Pirouette
1.9 / 5 (14) Dec 22, 2011
I am giving everyone a FIVE to offset the ONE that FrankHerbertfart likes to give to everyone he doesn't like. Since he hasn't met any of you in person, as far as I know, it must be that he is jealous of your knowledge and comprehension skills of the topic and each others' posts. A skill he lacks, big time. He is the drone in the bee hive. Ignore him. :)
NotAsleep
3 / 5 (2) Dec 22, 2011
Angle of Attack is a reference to a downward angle... i.e. when attacking a ground target.


Sorry but I really doubt you have any knowledge of aerodynamics.

http://insideraci...tack.htm

I see where the disconnect is... I used to design medium caliber ammo for aircraft. In that business, we refer to a literal angle of "attack" when describing how steeply ammunition will be fired. You're correct that this is probably not the standard use of the term. I sometimes get stuck in my old ways.

That being said, the B-2 isn't that much of a "different beast" than the RQ-170 in terms of aerodynamics. The flying wing style of plane is inherently unstable: this is a fact. All practical flying wings have extensive integrated electronics and are highly reliant on automatic computer control. I've canvassed an office of engineers in the business to give myself a sanity check and they all agree
Vendicar_Decarian
1 / 5 (6) Dec 22, 2011
So how should America pay for this act of war against Iran?
antialias_physorg
2.3 / 5 (3) Dec 22, 2011
So how should America pay for this act of war against Iran

With the loss of the drone.

As with all spying incidents that go sideways: Finders, keepers.

And spying isn't equal to an act of war. An act of war is an aggressive use of (military) force that constitutes a threat to peace. While this is definitely a military action it isn't aggressive (nor is it a use of force).

But the term 'act of war' is very vague - and there actually does not seem to be an international definition of what constitutes one.

So the answer to your question is: However they feel like exacting payment.
CHollman82
1 / 5 (8) Dec 22, 2011
Wow, the military is incompetent. What a surprise. /stupidity


Fixed that for you.
NotAsleep
5 / 5 (1) Dec 22, 2011
And spying isn't equal to an act of war. An act of war is an aggressive use of (military) force that constitutes a threat to peace. While this is definitely a military action it isn't aggressive (nor is it a use of force).

But the term 'act of war' is very vague - and there actually does not seem to be an international definition of what constitutes one.

Technically, any violation of sovereignty (i.e. infiltrating airspace or installing spies) is an act of aggression that could be used as a means to call for war. However, as you point out, "act of war" is a vague term. Everyone spies.

There have been serious discussions lately trying to decide at what point we would openly retaliate for cyber attacks. The fog of war is no longer constrained to the battlefield
antialias_physorg
2.3 / 5 (3) Dec 22, 2011
There have been serious discussions lately trying to decide at what point we would openly retaliate for cyber attacks.

That is a real problem since you can never be absolutely certain where the attack originated from. attacking the wrong conutry might be a result.

Not that that hasn't happened in the recent past because of conventional attack (WTC->Iraq)...so nothing new there.

The issue is that there exists no precedent for reacting to cyber-atack. So one country or another might lose its nerve. This is pretty scary given today's possibilities of cyber warfare and intelligence manipulation.
stripeless_zebra
1 / 5 (8) Dec 23, 2011

That being said, the B-2 isn't that much of a "different beast" than the RQ-170 in terms of aerodynamics.


Yes, there is a very big difference in terms of aerodynamics. The B-2 is indeed an inherently unstable platform whereas the RQ-170 is self stable. Like this design:

http://www.youtub...bs1YlQvc

and does not require flying computers to achieve a stable controllable flight. The B-2 is like a flying barn door and without a computer helped steering cannot be flown.

I've canvassed an office of engineers in the business to give myself a sanity check and they all agree


These guys have a lot to learn, I'm telling you. Ask them how the flying wings of the WWII era were able to make a stable flight without ANY input from computers.
stripeless_zebra
1.4 / 5 (11) Dec 23, 2011
So how should America pay for this act of war against Iran?


On the first day of Christmas they should send them a nuclear bomb!
ryggesogn2
1.9 / 5 (13) Dec 23, 2011
The Iranian regime that attacked the USA in 1979 is still in power.
A state of war has essentially existed with Iran since then.
antialias_physorg
1 / 5 (2) Dec 23, 2011
A little tidbit of historical knowledge: The current regime was brought to power with help of the US.

The shah that ruled Iran before that was threatening democratic reforms (as well as reforms in womens rights, social securityand an industrial modernization program).

The the US and the UK couldn't have that. So theý backed the shia clergy to organize a revolt (The iranian revolution)

A state of war has essentially existed with Iran since then

Which didn't stop the sales of arms (Iran-Contra affair anyone?)
ryggesogn2
1.9 / 5 (13) Dec 23, 2011
The shah that ruled Iran before that was threatening democratic reforms (as well as reforms in womens rights, social securityand an industrial modernization program).

Khomeini was a champion of women's rights and democratic reform?
Contemporary complaints against the Shah was he was westernizing. Iranian students were scattered across the West attending university.
So for anti, as long as the majority decides, (democracy) it doesn't matter what they decide? The majority can subjugate the minority, which apparently is acceptable to anti. After all, that's democracy, majority, mob rule.
kochevnik
1 / 5 (8) Dec 23, 2011
The Iranian regime that attacked the USA in 1979 is still in power.
A state of war has essentially existed with Iran since then.
Guess you didn't know about CIA project AJAX, where you yanks overthrew the American-educated capitalism-loving leader, slandered him as a communist, carpeted Iranians with lead, blamed him, stole Iranian oil and renamed it as British Petroleum? You're a thief but a dumb one and Iran thanks you for fighting it's war with Iraq, loser. Now put your kids into debt slavery to pay back that $1.4trillion to the Rothschilds, serf.
antialias_physorg
1 / 5 (1) Dec 23, 2011
Khomeini was a champion of women's rights and democratic reform?

No. Mohamad Reza Pahlavi was. (Kohmeini is not a shah - he's an Ayatollah). Pahlavi felt the need of the country to change and started the reforms towards a more democratic and liberal Iran.
Kohemeini was in Exile and was brought back to take over power after the shah was ousted.

Just saying: before you go talking about enemies of the US you should open up a history book and see
a) who put them in power
and
b) why they are enemies of the US
ryggesogn2
1.9 / 5 (13) Dec 23, 2011
American-educated capitalism-loving leader,

....Who confiscated the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company winning the support of the Iranian communist party. Some capitalist!
March 15, 1951: Iran nationalizes the AIOC.
Putting this in context:
Jan '51, Massive Chinese/North Korean assault on United Nations-lines; Viet Minh offensive against Hanoi, Vietnam. ;
FEB '51: US performs nuclear test at Nevada Test Site.; Bread rationing in Czechoslovakia.
MAR '51: Beginning of high-profile trial of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg in the USA, on charges of spying for the Soviet Union.;
Ali Razmara, Shah of Iran (1950-51), is assassinated. ;
Persia nationalizes Anglo-Iranian Oil Company.;
kochevnik
1 / 5 (7) Dec 23, 2011
....Who confiscated the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company
Hey ryggesogn2 I thought you believed in property rights. Apparently you only believe in YOUR property rights. Last I checked Iran has rights to self determination and control over it's natural resources. If it's someone's property you have no rights to it, hypocrite.
ryggesogn2
1.9 / 5 (13) Dec 23, 2011
Then the AIOC should have been able to take all the equipment used to pump oil out of the country and let the Iranians pump their own oil.
After all, that's why an Iranian govt signed a contract to form AIOC, to extract oil and provide royalties to the govt.

After the Iranian govt attacked the US embassy in 79, the US kept 4 destroyers slated for Iran and stopped supporting F-14.
kochevnik
1 / 5 (7) Dec 23, 2011
Then the AIOC should have been able to take all the equipment used to pump oil out of the country and let the Iranians pump their own oil.
After all, that's why an Iranian govt signed a contract to form AIOC, to extract oil and provide royalties to the govt.

After the Iranian govt attacked the US embassy in 79, the US kept 4 destroyers slated for Iran and stopped supporting F-14.
Then Britain could claim a debt with Iran. I mean, they have a business relationship. Perhaps a $500million of equipment vs. $trillions in oil trade. No, ryggesogn2, you have been caught red-handed supporting outright theft and violating your "sacred" principles for the sake of tyranny. You couldn't care less about property rights you are a bankster bootlicker, like all conservatives.
ryggesogn2
1.9 / 5 (13) Dec 23, 2011
Looking into history a bit more there were no private property rights to consider.
AIOC/BP was a govt owned company. Who owned Persia at the time oil concessions were granted? No one.
We have another example of how the socialism fails all sides.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1.3 / 5 (13) Dec 24, 2011
A little tidbit of historical knowledge: The current regime was brought to power with help of the US.

The shah that ruled Iran before that was threatening democratic reforms (as well as reforms in womens rights, social securityand an industrial modernization program).
A little tidbit of more pertinent historical knowledge: Iran as well as the other countries in the region are all artificial. Their borders were set by western Entities after the fall of the ottoman empire, in order to divide up all the nations and religions and include the remnants within common borders.

In this way conflict could be more effectively Managed. Kurdistan for instance is a part of 4 countries. Kurds are the fastest growing ethnic group in the area. And so we can appreciate the Wisdom of this Intent. This also allowed for the Staging of conflicts such as the Iran Iraq war, Shia against Shia, which is expressly forbidden in the Koran.

Your perception of conspiracy is stunted.
ryggesogn2
1.9 / 5 (13) Dec 24, 2011
Why did the British Empire apparently insist upon creating nation-states were none existed?
The Empire negotiated with some Persian govt for oil rights in 1901. A different Persian govt unilaterally nullified that agreement.
Obviously there is a cost to imposing an empire or imposing nationalism upon society that does not wish it.
Yugoslavia is no more. Czech and Slovakia are independent. East Timor is independent.
Borders, language and culture define a nation-state.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (10) Dec 24, 2011
Obviously there is a cost to... imposing nationalism upon society that does not wish it.
Czechoslovakia was kindling used to start ww2, which is why wilson piled it that way. Yugoslavia was kept stable for a few gens by tito because of the way it was piled. Etc.

Imagine what the middle east would look like if shiites had been able to set their own borders and install their own leaders? Or if kurdistan had been allowed to congeal?

'Divide the people up and set these groups against one another.' This has been the only way to maintain Order. ALL countries are artificial. Belgium was constructed to provide a nest for leopold from which he could rape the congo. Germany is a great ILLUSION. Germanic peoples occupy the entire subcontinent. The german rus established russia.

And there is none more artificial than the USA. 'One nation [no its not] under god [smoke and vapors] with liberty [whats that?] and justice [whats THAT?] for all.

Another Agency to fulfill Mission. Ephemeral.
ryggesogn2
1.9 / 5 (13) Dec 24, 2011
"In 862 the Slavs, exhausted by uninterrupted inter-tribal wars, made the following proposal to the Rus (a name borrowed from the Finns to designate the Swedes): "Our country is rich and immense, but it is rent by disorder. Come and govern us and reign over us".

Three Swedish Vikings responded and came to Russia. Rurik became governor of Novgorod, Sineus settled down in Beloozerg and Truvor in Izborsk. Two years later Sineus and Truvor both died and Rurik extended his rule over the whole country. Later two of his lieutenants went down to Kiev, nearly six hundred miles away, and conquered it. In 882 Oleg, Rurik's successor, came to Kiev in his turn. Having established his own leadership over numerous towns and tribes Oleg strengthened considerably the new Russian State and became its master. The new capital, Kiev, little by little became one of the richest towns in Europe.

Rurik's successors became a ruling dynasty in Russia for more than 700 years."
http://www.viking...sia/inde

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