Experts stumped by ancient Jerusalem markings

Dec 07, 2011 By MATTI FRIEDMAN , Associated Press
In this photo taken on Dec. 1, 2011, Israel's Antiquities Authority archeologist Eli Shukron sweeps marks carved in the bedrock in an archeological excavation in the city of David near Jerusalem's Old City. The mysterious stone carvings made thousands of years ago and recently uncovered in an excavation underneath Jerusalem have archaeologists stumped. (AP Photo/Sebastian Scheiner)

Mysterious stone carvings made thousands of years ago and recently uncovered in an excavation underneath Jerusalem have archaeologists stumped.

Israeli diggers who uncovered a complex of rooms carved into the in the oldest section of the city recently found the markings: Three "V" shapes cut next to each other into the limestone floor of one of the rooms, about 2 inches (5 centimeters) deep and 20 inches (50 centimeters) long. There were no finds to offer any clues pointing to the identity of who made them or what purpose they served.

The archaeologists in charge of the dig know so little that they have been unable even to posit a theory about their nature, said Eli Shukron, one of the two directors of the dig.

"The markings are very strange, and very intriguing. I've never seen anything like them," Shukron said.

The shapes were found in a dig known as the City of David, a politically sensitive conducted by Israeli government archaeologists and funded by a nationalist Jewish group under the Palestinian neighborhood of Silwan in east Jerusalem. The rooms were unearthed as part of the excavation of fortifications around the ancient city's only natural water source, the Gihon spring.

It is possible, the dig's archaeologists say, that when the markings were made at least 2,800 years ago the shapes might have accommodated some kind of wooden structure that stood inside them, or they might have served some other purpose on their own. They might have had a ritual function or one that was entirely mundane. Archaeologists faced by a curious can usually at least venture a guess about its nature, but in this case no one, including outside experts consulted by Shukron and the dig's co-director, archaeologists with decades of experience between them, has any idea.

There appears to be at least one other ancient marking of the same type at the site. A century-old map of an expedition led by the British explorer Montague Parker, who searched for the lost treasures of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem between 1909 and 1911, includes the shape of a "V" drawn in an underground channel not far away. Modern archaeologists haven't excavated that area yet.

Ceramic shards found in the rooms indicate they were last used around 800 B.C., with Jerusalem under the rule of Judean kings, the dig's archaeologists say. At around that time, the rooms appear to have been filled with rubble to support the construction of a defensive wall.

It is unclear, however, whether they were built in the time of those kings or centuries earlier by the Canaanite residents who predated them.

The purpose of the complex is part of the riddle. The straight lines of its walls and level floors are evidence of careful engineering, and it was located close to the most important site in the city, the spring, suggesting it might have had an important function.

A unique find in a room beside the one with the markings - a stone like a modern grave marker, which was left upright when the room was filled in - might offer a clue. Such stones were used in the ancient Middle East as a focal point for ritual or a memorial for dead ancestors, the archaeologists say, and it is likely a remnant of the pagan religions which the city's Israelite prophets tried to eradicate. It is the first such stone to be found intact in Jerusalem excavations.

But the ritual stone does not necessarily mean the whole complex was a temple. It might simply have marked a corner devoted to religious practice in a building whose purpose was commonplace.

With the experts unable to come up with a theory about the markings, the City of David dig posted a photo on its Facebook page and solicited suggestions. The results ranged from the thought-provoking - "a system for wood panels that held some other item," or molds into which molten metal would could have been poured - to the fanciful: ancient Hebrew or Egyptian characters, or a "symbol for water, particularly as it was near a spring."

The City of David dig, where the carvings were found, is the most high-profile and politically contentious excavation in the Holy Land. Named for the biblical monarch thought to have ruled from the spot 3,000 years ago, the dig is located in what today is east Jerusalem, which was captured by Israel in 1967. Palestinians claim that part of the city as the capital of a future state.

The dig is funded by Elad, an organization affiliated with the Israeli settlement movement. The group also moves Jewish families into the neighborhood and elsewhere in east in an attempt to render impossible any division of the city in a future peace deal.

Palestinians and some Israeli archaeologists have criticized the dig for what they say is an excessive focus on Jewish remains. The dig's , who work under the auspices of the government's Israel Antiquities Authority, deny that charge.

Explore further: Greek archaeology site sparks intense interest (Update)

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Crazy_council
2.6 / 5 (5) Dec 07, 2011
the Vs look like channels cut to put leavers in to raise something heavey of the floor.
Trimboski
not rated yet Dec 07, 2011
In etymology the V represented a hand, and that the X was made by placing two Vs on top of each other, one inverted.
btb101
5 / 5 (2) Dec 07, 2011
exit this way?

thats a pretty universal sign.
Nanobanano
3.3 / 5 (7) Dec 07, 2011
exit this way?

thats a pretty universal sign.


The V's are pointing in opposite directions, so that's unlikely.

There may be some hints in the manner of construction given in the Bible regarding how they used different types of materials together.

In the case of the Tabernacle, it was "prefabricated" in such a way as to be easy to assemble and dis-assemble to move it around as they went from place to place.

It seems that if you had some sort of temporary wooden structure, wall, or shelf, these "sockets" in the ground might be useful for ensuring it is anchored to the ground and can't slide around on the floor.

A triangle is a stable shape for a foundation of anything, but if you want something to be light-weight, you might remove one "edge" of the triangle, and make in indentation like this to hold it up, therefore getting the benefits of a triangle shape, but only having the weight of two sides, like a folded piece of paper, etc.
Doug_Huffman
1.9 / 5 (17) Dec 07, 2011
Cups and blade, unica and phallus.
electrodynamic
not rated yet Dec 07, 2011
Could be that water flowed across it, and produced a certain shape.
Perhaps this made the water better in some way.
Isaacsname
4 / 5 (2) Dec 07, 2011
It's doubtful that they didn't have something in them, my guess is they were the base for some sort of analog transit that allowed for precise alignments as the location was carved out/excavated/built. Could have been aligned to equinox positions, constellations, etc, as well.
Pirouette
1.5 / 5 (24) Dec 07, 2011
That's fairly easy to figure out. They're only 2 inches deep and 20 inches long. Boomerang shaped. I would say that molten metal was poured into each V and then when the form had cooled enough, the hot metal was thrust into the water from the spring. The Vs are molds for a sickle (for harvesting) and that room must have been for a metal worker to mold molten metal into a farming implement called a sickle.

http://en.wikiped...i/Sickle

There's a picture of one that's more or less the same shape as the V on the floor. The limestone floor would have been perfect for molding metal. The melted iron would have stayed in place and it would have been a lot safer than having a mold high above the floor.
Pirouette
1.6 / 5 (20) Dec 07, 2011
One length of the V could have been covered with 2 pieces of wood and wrapped together with some kind of rope, and the other length could have been sharpened on one side to make a blade for cutting grain.
shaw44
2 / 5 (4) Dec 07, 2011
One of three pyramids that have a hidden compartment underneath.
Pirouette
1.5 / 5 (8) Dec 08, 2011
Pyramids? This is in a city near Jerusalem in Israel, not Egypt. :)
shaw44
not rated yet Dec 08, 2011
What are you talking about they are kitty corner from each other. ; )
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.5 / 5 (16) Dec 08, 2011
That's fairly easy to figure out.
-Incredible.

They're only 2 inches deep and 20 inches long. Boomerang shaped. I would say that molten metal was poured duhduhduh
I guess you missed this in your ref:

"variants of this basic forage-cutting tool were forged of iron, later steel."

-Forged not cast you dimwit. Why would you offer an explanation if you had no idea how these things are made? Why wouldnt you have said 'well maybe...' or 'how about...'

-Honestly the arrogance of people like you and QC/nano is outrageous. Knowing that it originates in damaged brains does not make it any more tolerable.
FrankHerbert
3.1 / 5 (135) Dec 08, 2011
That's fairly easy to figure out. They're only 2 inches deep and 20 inches long. Boomerang shaped. I would say that molten metal was poured into each V and then when the form had cooled enough, the hot metal was thrust into the water from the spring. The Vs are molds for a sickle (for harvesting) and that room must have been for a metal worker to mold molten metal into a farming implement called a sickle.

http://en.wikiped...i/Sickle

There's a picture of one that's more or less the same shape as the V on the floor. The limestone floor would have been perfect for molding metal. The melted iron would have stayed in place and it would have been a lot safer than having a mold high above the floor.


http://en.wikiped...r_effect

The Dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled people make poor decisions and reach erroneous conclusions, but their incompetence denies them the metacognitive ability to recognize their mistakes.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (14) Dec 08, 2011
That's fairly easy to figure out. They're only 2 inches deep and 20 inches long. Boomerang shaped. I would say that molten metal was poured into each V and then when the form had cooled enough, the hot metal was thrust into the water from the spring. The Vs are molds for a sickle (for harvesting) and that room must have been for a metal worker to mold molten metal into a farming implement called a sickle.

http://en.wikiped...i/Sickle

The Dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled people make poor decisions and reach erroneous conclusions, but their incompetence denies them the metacognitive ability to recognize their mistakes.
Yeah I have to try to remember this...
Pirouette
1.8 / 5 (15) Dec 08, 2011
@Ghost. . . .neither you nor FrankHerbert$hithead have offered any PLAUSIBLE solutions to the question. . . .only vicious personal attacks.
If you both weren't such stupid assholes you might understand that there are NO artifacts indicating what the V forms were used for. . . .so MY observation is just as good as any other.

from the article: """Israeli diggers who uncovered a complex of rooms carved into the bedrock in the oldest section of the city recently found the markings: Three "V" shapes cut next to each other into the limestone floor of one of the rooms, about 2 inches (5 centimeters) deep and 20 inches (50 centimeters) long. THERE WERE NO FINDS to offer any clues pointing to the identity of who made them or what purpose they served."""
FrankHerbert
3.1 / 5 (125) Dec 08, 2011
so MY observation is just as good as any other.


Hmmm... so I guess they could have been casting lead boomerangs? Guess that observation is as good as any other. Heh.

http://en.wikiped...r_effect

The Dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled people (Pirouette) make poor decisions and reach erroneous conclusions, but their incompetence denies them the metacognitive ability to recognize their mistakes.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.8 / 5 (16) Dec 08, 2011
And yet... forged implements can hold an edge which is why they are used instead of casting them.
That's fairly easy to figure out...such stupid assholes
Try researching before you post asshole.
Pirouette
2 / 5 (12) Dec 08, 2011
Whether forged or cast, the molten iron still has to be poured into a MOLD - to FORM the general or basic shape of the object. Then after cooling slightly, the iron is shaped with a hammer on an anvil, which is probably the purpose of the large stone. You seem to think that there were no metal workers 2800 years ago. Go back to school and learn some world history.
You have become a paranoid jackass like FrankHerbert$hithead and his many aliases. You attack like a vicious mad dog also, even though you ALSO have no answer for the problem that even REAL SCIENTISTS can't solve. No wonder Physorg talk bad about you and your butt buddy FrankHerbert$hithead. Not surprising at all.
FrankHerbert
2.3 / 5 (94) Dec 08, 2011
The Vs on the limestone floor in that room are molds cut into the rock. Deal with it, assholes.
Couple of phucking know-it-alls


Wait I thought any observation was as good as another, so I'm an asshole for having my own observation and you are DEFINITELY right that they are molds, and we're the assholes?

Ignorance begets arrogance.

http://en.wikiped...r_effect

The Dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled people (Pirouette) make poor decisions and reach erroneous conclusions, but their incompetence denies them the metacognitive ability to recognize their mistakes.
Pirouette
3.4 / 5 (49) Dec 08, 2011
You didn't OFFER any solutions or answers to the problem, you phucking retard. That Dunning-Kruger effect applies to YOU and your butt buddy. . .provide your OWN answer to the problem in the article. . . .but you can't. . .and you won't. . . .what's YOUR answer to the article's question of the V shapes, eh? Tell us all your observation.
FrankHerbert
2.2 / 5 (89) Dec 08, 2011
Hmmm... so I guess they could have been casting lead boomerangs? Guess that observation is as good as any other. Heh.


Why do you insist on lying Pirouette?
FrankHerbert
3.1 / 5 (125) Dec 08, 2011
Why do you insist on lying Pirouette?

lead boomerangs


Can you not read?

Also, if you are going to spam unrelated topics I haven't even posted in in an attempt to discredit me, you would be well advised to link to a topic that doesn't make you seem like a moron. Admittedly that may be tough.
Pirouette
1.3 / 5 (47) Dec 08, 2011
FrankHerbert$hithead STILL is not offering any solution/observation to the problem in the article and that's why he is a phucking retarded $hithead

I had said: That's fairly easy to figure out. They're only 2 inches deep and 20 inches long. Boomerang shaped.
Pirouette
3.5 / 5 (49) Dec 08, 2011
That's evidence that FrankHerbert$hithead aka Pirouline and other aliases, is incapable of reading comprehension of easy sentences and paragraphs. He obviously refuses to take REMEDIAL READING COMPREHENSION AND INSTEAD PREFERS TO MISQUOTE THOSE HE WISHES TO VICTIMIZE. HE IS PROBABLY A PAID AGENT FROM A COMPETING SCIENCE WEBSITE, HIRED TO DRIVE MEMBERS AWAY FROM PHYSORG.COM THROUGH HARASSMENT AND INTIMIDATION.
FrankHerbert
2.3 / 5 (91) Dec 08, 2011
You're a liar Pirouette. Anyone can look through this topic and see I have not misquoted you and in effect you have misquoted me, in numerous topics I'm not even engaged in.

Anytime pirouette doesn't like what someone says he 1) says they misquote him even if they never quoted him to begin with 2) starts with juvenile name calling but is too much of a coward to actually use swear words 3) trots out the conspiracies.

You better get back to the home, the orderlies are going to start wondering about you.
FrankHerbert
2.2 / 5 (89) Dec 08, 2011
LOL this just made me think of something.

I remember this kid that road my bus and shat his pants EVERYDAY. He got picked on quite a bit. He was a little unhinged as a result of this. He would frequently stare at me through the driver's mirror in a really creepy manor. I told; he got in trouble.

So one day he was flipping me off, but with his ring finger, not his middle. I told the bus driver and when the bus driver started yelling at him the kid just lost it.

"NO YOU CAN'T SAY THAT. I WASN'T FLIPPING HIM OFF. LIAR!"

Basically plugging his ears and repeatedly screaming variations of such.

Pirouette reminds me of this kid. Everything from his lies to his pseudo-censoring of his swearing. I'm relatively sure if I said shit somewhere in one of my posts he'd probably take offense to it, even though he calls me FrankHerbert$hithead everytime he forgets his medication.

I think he thinks he is actually being proper by e.g. replacing the 's' in shit with '$'.

What juvenile behavior.
Pirouette
3.5 / 5 (45) Dec 08, 2011
HERE IS MY WHOLE QUOTE FROM FURTHER ABOVE:

That's fairly easy to figure out. They're only 2 inches deep and 20 inches long. Boomerang shaped. I would say that molten metal was poured into each V and then when the form had cooled enough, the hot metal was thrust into the water from the spring. The Vs are molds for a sickle (for harvesting) and that room must have been for a metal worker to mold molten metal into a farming implement called a sickle.

http://en.wikiped...i/Sickle

There's a picture of one that's more or less the same shape as the V on the floor. The limestone floor would have been perfect for molding metal. The melted iron would have stayed in place and it would have been a lot safer than having a mold high above the floor.

TheGhostofOtto1923
4.3 / 5 (39) Dec 08, 2011
Whether forged or cast, the molten iron still has to be poured into a MOLD - to FORM the general or basic shape of the object. Then after cooling slightly, the iron is shaped with a hammer on an anvil, which is probably the purpose of the large stone.
Hmmm. Maybe you dont realize that you actually made that all up?

Sorry they invariably start out with bar stock and pound it into shape.
http://www.youtub...a_player
http://www.youtub...a_player
FrankHerbert
2.3 / 5 (90) Dec 08, 2011
I think Pirouette actually thinks I was trying to steal his idea or something and is actually angry I might get credit.

I
AM
MAKING
FUN
OF
YOU!

The casting idea is stupid. They were not casting sickles there, or anything.

You really thought I was being serious about a lead boomerang?

You don't get it, do you?
barakn
4.2 / 5 (21) Dec 09, 2011
These could never have been used as molds. Just a quick glance at the photo should be enough see that the profile of the trough is wider lower down than at the lip. Anything cast in the mold would have been permanently stuck, as it would be simply too wide to pull out. Also, a mold cut into a floor is virtually unprecedented in metallurgy, and in fact many molds are one-time-use only as they have to be broken off the cast object after cooling. There's also the not quite so small problem that both iron and bronze have a higher melting point than the aragonite in the limestone, leading to their destruction during first use. But the simplest evidence stems from how messy metallurgy is. Were these used as molds, there would be leftover metal fragments in pits and cracks in the molds themselves as well as metal droplets all over the floor. It would have been obvious.
Isaacsname
4.8 / 5 (32) Dec 09, 2011
I agree completely, . ...if those are supposed to be molds for molten metal, where are the rest of the parts to the operation ?

The foundry, forge, etc ? Where is the soot on the walls ? Etc.

If there had been metal casting going on there, there'd be more evidence, evidence that'd be painfully obvious.
LivaN
3.7 / 5 (9) Dec 09, 2011
MY observation is just as good as any other.


I bet that Harvesting Sickle from Iraq in Pirouette's link is actually an ancient puzzle piece that fits perfectly into one of those Boomerang moulds! Once all the pieces are found and properly placed, a secret chamber will open containing the returned Jesus, a couple of WMDs and a gold key...

link: http://en.wikiped...ckle.jpg
Pirouette
2.5 / 5 (12) Dec 09, 2011
barakn says:
These could never have been used as molds. Just a quick glance at the photo should be enough see that the profile of the trough is wider lower down than at the lip. Anything cast in the mold would have been permanently stuck, as it would be simply too wide to pull out. Also, a mold cut into a floor is virtually unprecedented in metallurgy, and in fact many molds are one-time-use only as they have to be broken off the cast object after cooling. There's also the not quite so small problem that both iron and bronze have a higher melting point than the aragonite in the limestone, leading to their destruction during first use. But the simplest evidence stems from how messy metallurgy is. Were these used as molds, there would be leftover metal fragments in pits and cracks in the molds themselves as well as metal droplets all over the floor. It would have been obvious.


You could be right, barakn. . . .however, this must have been an agrarian society 2800 years ago
Pirouette
1.7 / 5 (11) Dec 09, 2011
and sickles used in those days would have been, as I've already said, boomerang SHAPED. with both lengths equal. The room would have been ideal as a blacksmith's shop due to the close proximity to water from the only spring available and was protected from the rain. The Vs themselves may have been widened at the bottom of each channel after each use in order to clean out any remnants of metal. They may even have used the "lost wax" method as is used in making gold jewelry with specialized molds. You may have noticed the archaeologist using a brush to clean the dust? He may have swept up tiny iron filings and other debris. The previous users of the room 2800 years ago may also have cleaned up the room each time after using it.
Pirouette
1.7 / 5 (11) Dec 09, 2011
You are going on the premise that the blacksmith or metal worker was sloppy and kept a messy environment. But I believe that the room was cleaned up and soot removed from the floor, walls and ceiling. All that is left are the V shapes and the large stone. They may have decided to use the room as a storage area after awhile when they couldn't use the molds any longer. So, you would be partly correct that the molds would have been ruined after awhile after its being used. I had considered all that you said prior to my commenting, but I still believe that they were molds cut into the floor for making sickles, due to the V shapes.
Pirouette
1.7 / 5 (11) Dec 09, 2011
I think Pirouette actually thinks I was trying to steal his idea or something and is actually angry I might get credit.

I
AM
MAKING
FUN
OF
YOU!

The casting idea is stupid. They were not casting sickles there, or anything.

You really thought I was being serious about a lead boomerang?

You don't get it, do you?


Looks like FrankHerbert$hithead is attempting some "DAMAGE CONTROL" by saying he was just making fun of me . .and in a thread that's supposed to be for SERIOUS discussion. FrankHerbert$hithead is known for harassing and trying to intimidate people who have called him out when he CONSISTENTLY MISQUOTES them. Damage control is too late, $hithead.
Your little story about your snitching on the kid on the school? bus tells us a lot about your true $hitty character. Somehow it's not surprising.
When confronted with a copy of my original comment, he tries to weasel out of it, as usual.
Pirouette
1.8 / 5 (10) Dec 09, 2011

Whether forged or cast, the molten iron still has to be poured into a MOLD - to FORM the general or basic shape of the object. Then after cooling slightly, the iron is shaped with a hammer on an anvil, which is probably the purpose of the large stone.
Ghost says: Hmmm. Maybe you dont realize that you actually made that all up?

Sorry they invariably start out with bar stock and pound it into shape.
http://www.youtub...a_player

Ghost, are you always this stupid?? The 2 videos don't SHOW the FORMATION of any "bar stock". The bars that they show that will be made into chains have been formed in a mold ALREADY and are ready to be pressed into the shape of a piece of chain.
The "bar" HAS TO BE formed in a MOLD first before it can be reheated in the furnace and worked on, on an anvil with a hammer and/or other tools.
You got yourself a good butt buddy in FrankHerbert$hit. Congratulations, know-it-all.
FrankHerbert
2.2 / 5 (85) Dec 09, 2011
MY observation is just as good as any other.


I bet that Harvesting Sickle from Iraq in Pirouette's link is actually an ancient puzzle piece that fits perfectly into one of those Boomerang moulds! Once all the pieces are found and properly placed, a secret chamber will open containing the returned Jesus, a couple of WMDs and a gold key...

link: http://en.wikiped...ckle.jpg


So THAT's where Saddam hid the WMD. No wonder we never found them. I formally apologize to George W. Bush. What a visionary.

Looks like FrankHerbert$hithead is attempting some "DAMAGE CONTROL" by saying he was just making fun of me . .and in a thread that's supposed to be for SERIOUS discussion.

Uhh once you entire a topic serious discussion goes out the window.
Congratulations, know-it-all.

The only person acting like an know-it-all is you.

Charles Darwin said it best: Ignorance more often begets confidence than the opposite.
Isaacsname
4.1 / 5 (7) Dec 09, 2011
I could create a private blog with a live chat window for you guys to argue in if you like....
FrankHerbert
3 / 5 (122) Dec 09, 2011
How about you take an obvious moron to task instead of trying to equate him to the person doing that work for you?
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.7 / 5 (12) Dec 09, 2011
Dimwit says:
and sickles used in those days would have been, as I've already said, boomerang SHAPED.
Why?
with both lengths equal.
Why?
The room would have been ideal as a blacksmith's shop
-says the accomplished blacksmith.
due to the close proximity to water from the only spring available and was protected from the rain.
So?
The Vs themselves may have been widened at the bottom of each channel after each use in order to clean out any remnants of metal.
-And to make it especially hard to pry out boomerang sickles.
They may even have used the "lost wax" method as is used in making gold jewelry with specialized molds.
Hahaaa!
You may have noticed the archaeologist using a brush to clean the dust? He may have swept up tiny iron filings and other debris. The previous users of the room 2800 years ago may also have cleaned up the room each time after using it.
-Including metal spattered and shavings ground into the stone. Hydrochloric acid I would guess.
TheGhostofOtto1923
4.2 / 5 (37) Dec 09, 2011
Ghost, are you always this stupid??
8-O
The 2 videos don't SHOW the FORMATION of any "bar stock".
Youre right.
The bars that they show that will be made into chains have been formed in a mold ALREADY and are ready to be pressed into the shape of a piece of chain.
That is why they were flat and bar-shaped before being wound around the link-shaped armature. Ahahahaaa!!!! Try watching next time BEFORE you chug that half bottle of jack daniels.
The "bar" HAS TO BE formed in a MOLD first before it can be reheated in the furnace and worked on, on an anvil with a hammer and/or other tools.
This is why horseshoes all start with horseshoe-shaped metal (no they dont - ahahahahaaa!)
http://www.youtub...=related

-Again it seems we are confronted with the curious phenomenon of a person whose imagination is the equivalent of reality. 'I can think it, therefore it must be so.' -says the sadly demented creature. It would not last long in the wild.
Pirouette
2.6 / 5 (10) Dec 09, 2011
@Ghost. . . .I suppose YOU have a better answer and observation for the question of what the Vs are for, eh? Let's see it. . . .since you know so much more about it than I do.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.5 / 5 (11) Dec 09, 2011
and sickles used in those days would have been, as I've already said, boomerang SHAPED.
And really BIG - take another look at the pic and imagine swinging a 6 foot, 200 lb piece of metal all day long. Bwaaahaaaaa!
You are going on the premise that the blacksmith or metal worker was sloppy
See in the vid what a blacksmithy looks like? They get pretty dirty you know. Sparks and ash flying all over the place... ahahahaaa!!!
and kept a messy environment.
Snicker!
But I believe that the room was cleaned up and soot removed from the floor, walls and ceiling. All that is left are the V shapes and the large stone. They may have decided to use the room as a storage area after awhile when they couldn't use the molds any longer.
Or perhaps a library. Or a bakery - wouldnt want soot in your V-shaped breadloaves heehee.

Man this is fun. Keep saying stupid stuff. You know I am thinking your UFO was probably a stop light or something.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.7 / 5 (12) Dec 09, 2011
@Ghost. . . .I suppose YOU have a better answer and observation for the question of what the Vs are for, eh? Let's see it. . . .since you know so much more about it than I do.
Yes I think they were for making stop lights. This might not be true but it makes more sense than your outrageous bullshit.
Skultch
5 / 5 (9) Dec 09, 2011
I'm a moody SOB and it's interesting to me how my mind reacts to Pirouette's posts. Good mood = "Keep posting, this is hilarious!" Bad mood = "why does ignorance so often breed confidence? arrrgghhhh!!!"

Seriously, if it weren't for the cranks, I probably wouldn't be as motivated to browse this site. Thanks to all!! :)
Pirouette
1.8 / 5 (10) Dec 09, 2011
@Ghost. . . .I suppose YOU have a better answer and observation for the question of what the Vs are for, eh? Let's see it. . . .since you know so much more about it than I do.
Yes I think they were for making stop lights. This might not be true but it makes more sense than your outrageous bullshit.


So, you don't have any plausible ideas to offer, eh? Neither does your butt buddy, FrankHerbert$hithead. So why are you in this thread at all?
Oh wait, I think I know. . . .you've come in here to see what comments I made and, since you don't like me and hate to see me comment in any thread, you want to harass and try to prevent me from commenting by insulting and intimidating and trying to force me to give up my membership in Physorg.
That proves that GhostofOtto and FrankHerbert$hitAss are sucking each other's dicks and they're afraid everyone will find out. LOL. . .that's funny.
Pirouette
2 / 5 (8) Dec 09, 2011
What a great twosome. . . .and you can't even come up with anything to do with the topic of this thread except STOP LIGHTS. HO HO HO
Pirouette
2 / 5 (8) Dec 09, 2011
I'm a moody SOB and it's interesting to me how my mind reacts to Pirouette's posts. Good mood = "Keep posting, this is hilarious!" Bad mood = "why does ignorance so often breed confidence? arrrgghhhh!!!"

Seriously, if it weren't for the cranks, I probably wouldn't be as motivated to browse this site. Thanks to all!! :)


Skultch. . . .I was wondering when you wuz gonna show up. About time too. . .did you happen to have some pot without the paraquat for GhostofOtto. . .he needs a hit badly
Skultch
5 / 5 (5) Dec 09, 2011
Skultch. . . .I was wondering when you wuz gonna show up. About time too. . .


I tend to be more of a lurker when life gets busy and stressful, as it has for me lately.

did you happen to have some pot without the paraquat for GhostofOtto. . .he needs a hit badly


:) I'm impressed. Organic funk is the only way to go. Luckily for me, and my chronically painful back, I live in a place where this is legal and very cheap and VERY easy to come by. Sorry, but I don't do deliveries. :)

Hey, maybe those Vs were for suspending hydroponic plants over a flowing fertilized solution on a small scale? lol
Pirouette
Dec 09, 2011
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
Pirouette
1.7 / 5 (6) Dec 09, 2011
Skultch. . .have you tried acupuncture for your back? It might ease the pain
Skultch
4 / 5 (4) Dec 09, 2011
I've tried dry needling, the western physical therapy equivalent, and YES!!, it works wonders on chronic muscle knots. It's actually quite amazing given that almost all other approaches fail miserably for me. It takes several sessions, and has lasting affects, but not indefinite since mine is caused by disc bulges and tears. The action of the needles can be very painful (deep), but with the back pain and my PTSD, I have an abnormally high pain tolerance. I think I'm due for another round. Thanks for the reminder! :) It's strange how often we forget what's good for us when we are distracted.

As far as acupuncture specifically, I've done some cursory research and don't believe the theory behind it has any grounds whatsoever, and from what I've found, it has not proven to be more effective than placebos or faked treatments.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.9 / 5 (12) Dec 09, 2011
So, you don't have any plausible ideas to offer, eh?
"Experts stumped by ancient Jerusalem markings"

-But not you...
That's fairly easy to figure out.
heehee
So why are you in this thread at all?
Why not?
you want to harass and try to prevent me from commenting by insulting and intimidating and trying to force me to give up my membership in Physorg.
You miss the point. You say incredibly brainle- er, inappropriate- things. I feel it is my duty to make the public aware of the depth and width and height and etc of your uh inappropriateness.

Actually naw its just fun.

What do you expect? That people should ignore such wit as
and sickles used in those days would have been, as I've already said, boomerang SHAPED. with both lengths equal.
and
You may have noticed the archaeologist using a brush to clean the dust? He may have swept up tiny iron filings and other debris.
Im sorry thats just not possible.
barakn
3.8 / 5 (10) Dec 09, 2011
They may even have used the "lost wax" method as is used in making gold jewelry with specialized molds.
It's readily apparent you have no clue what the lost wax method is. The wax is formed into a positive image of the desired product. Then the wax is enveloped in plaster or clay. After the molten metal is poured in and replaces the wax, the plaster or clay is broken to retrieve the object from the interior. If these shapes in the floor are molds that are: 1. already solid, not soft, and 2. already the negative of the desired shape, then there is absolutely no need for wax.
Pirouette
1.5 / 5 (15) Dec 09, 2011
I've tried dry needling, the western physical therapy equivalent, and YES!!, it works wonders on chronic muscle knots. It's actually quite amazing given that almost all other approaches fail miserably for me. It takes several sessions, and has lasting affects, but not indefinite since mine is caused by disc bulges and tears. The action of the needles can be very painful (deep), but with the back pain and my PTSD, I have an abnormally high pain tolerance. I think I'm due for another round. Thanks for the reminder! :) It's strange how often we forget what's good for us when we are distracted.

As far as acupuncture specifically, I've done some cursory research and don't believe the theory behind it has any grounds whatsoever, and from what I've found, it has not proven to be more effective than placebos or faked treatments.

Skultch. . .I understand how disc bulges can get extremely painful. I have 2 friends who have almost the same condition as yours.
Pirouette
1.7 / 5 (6) Dec 09, 2011
Years of neglect while they worked in construction and now they are undergoing acupuncture, which gives them some relief. That's why I mentioned acupuncture. They will always have the problem, but not as bad as in the beginning. You might want to consider it anyway if the pain gets too bad.
Bog_Mire
2 / 5 (9) Dec 09, 2011
pirouette; you seem to get quite upset at a coupla posters that highlighted flaws in your theory here. This would suggest you have hurt feelings at being made to look foolish in front of a whole lotta anonymous posters. Naturally so.

A better tactic may be to concede the flaws (instead of single-mindedly digging deeper and deeper). It is called humility. THEN demand your tormentors come up with a better explanation. Live AND learn.
Pirouette
1.3 / 5 (15) Dec 09, 2011
They may even have used the "lost wax" method as is used in making gold jewelry with specialized molds.
It's readily apparent you have no clue what the lost wax method is. The wax is formed into a positive image of the desired product. Then the wax is enveloped in plaster or clay. After the molten metal is poured in and replaces the wax, the plaster or clay is broken to retrieve the object from the interior. If these shapes in the floor are molds that are: 1. already solid, not soft, and 2. already the negative of the desired shape, then there is absolutely no need for wax.

Barakn. . .thanks for the lesson in lost wax. . .I had thought that maybe the V shapes were filled with a paraffin or clay tube or pipe before the molten iron was poured. The tube or pipe would have been open at the top and the iron poured into it. Then when the metal had cooled enough, the clay tube or pipe could be broken and the metal removed.
Pirouette
1.6 / 5 (7) Dec 09, 2011
The picture doesn't show whether the bottom of the channel is flat or rounded and it's hard to tell either way. But if the bottom was already flat, then there would a little less work for the metal worker to hammer it into a blade while it was still hot.
I suppose paraffin would not be necessary, as you say.
Pirouette
1.5 / 5 (8) Dec 09, 2011
@Bog. . .I don't know where you got the idea that I'm being tormented or need to display some kind of humility only because I posted a comment in this thread with my observation of what I feel might be the answer to the mysterious V shapes on the floor of a room in a building in the city of David near Jerusalem. . . .LOL. . .but i do find it amusing. One can only be made to look foolish if the ones who are in opposition to one's solution to the problem have the ability and knowledge to set forth a better solution that is far superior to the one I had set forth already. Neither one have provided any solution to the problem. . . .only stupidity which does not call for any sort of humility on my or anyone else's part. There may be others in this thread or who will come into this thread with the thought of trying to find the solution to the problem. Perhaps you will insist on them having humility also if their solution doesn't fit the problem? For shame.
Pirouette
1.5 / 5 (8) Dec 10, 2011
@Barakn. . . .the 2 videos that had been submitted in this thread by Ghost showed nothing at all of the first process by which the ore is initially heated and melted into a fluid that can then be poured into a mold. If you look at one of the videos, it is the finished product - a steel bar that is bent into a round shape by a machine, to be made into a link in a chain. Ghost emphasizes how dirty the chain workers are in the video, as though that is of prime interest to him.
The second video has also nothing to do with melting and pouring iron ore or steel into a mold, it only shows tools used in working the finished product.
I have wasted a lot of time with those 2 who have no knowledge of the topic nor the processes I was describing. I don't care for pretense, particularly when the pretenders have nothing of value to offer in the discussion but stupidity for the hell of it.
Again, I thank you for enlightening me as to the lost wax process. Peace
MarkyMark
3.7 / 5 (3) Dec 10, 2011
What i see here is that for some reason when Pirouette provides a theory and someone points out some holes in the theory, he suddenly goes into hissy fit mode and uses the kind of language a teenager would use. Which really raises peoples opinion of him as a person, so can you blame me for downvoting you mainly due to the VERY angry tone to your posts? Also your whole clay pipe theory is based it seems on the idea that those shapes have a curved bottom which is something you admit there is no 'evidence' to support it as in that photo we cant see tha shape of the botton.

Might i advise that next time you form a theory you base it on evidence otherwise all it is is just idle speculation.
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.5 / 5 (11) Dec 10, 2011
.LOL. . .but i do find it amusing. One can only be made to look foolish if the ones who are in opposition to one's solution to the problem have the ability and knowledge to set forth a better solution
Uh molten metal melts wax... Bwaaahaaahaaahaahaaahaaa!!?!! Coughcough
I have wasted a lot of time with those 2 who have no knowledge of the topic nor the processes I was describing.
But molten metal melts wax ahahahaaahaaaahhaaaaaahaaaa!!!
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.5 / 5 (13) Dec 10, 2011
I don't care for pretense, particularly when the pretenders have nothing of value to offer in the discussion but stupidity for the hell of it.
Did you know molten metal melts 'paraffin'? Ah ahaaaaaahaaaaahaaahaahaahaha!!!!! Fart aw I soiled myself
Hev
4 / 5 (4) Dec 10, 2011
seems any controversy about Jerusalem leads to schoolboy fights
Caliban
5 / 5 (5) Dec 10, 2011
Seems likely that we will have to wait for the entire picture to emerge, since, as was noted in the article, there is at least one similar "marking" elsewhere on the premises. Taken together, their locations, orientations and dimensions may offer more fruitful avenues for hypothesis

Pirouette
1.6 / 5 (7) Dec 10, 2011
Caliban. . . .we will just have to wait for further information and more detailed pictures of the V shapes. But as yet, apart from my own observation and the observations of the commenters above my own comment. . . .nobody has offered any VALID information of their own. Do YOU have any ideas on this?
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.2 / 5 (10) Dec 10, 2011
apart from my own observation and the observations of the commenters above my own comment. . . .nobody has offered any VALID information
...So you actually call what you offered VALID? And I quote:
I had thought that maybe the V shapes were filled with a paraffin or clay tube or pipe before the molten iron was poured.
I am guessing this was SDEHT (Super duper extra-high temp) paraffin (wax)... BWAHAAHAAAHAAAAHAHAHAAAAAAAA!!!!!

Try again. Say something like 'I cant believe I actually posted a suggestion that wax (paraffin) molds were used to cast iron. I am SO sorry and promise to stick to describing my UFO stoplight figments from now on...'

-or something like that. Come on now, be polite.

You know I am starting to think someone is pulling a joke here. NOBODY is this stupid. Perhaps mods or disgruntled losers from previous engagements are trying to bait certain people here into getting themselves banned? This is my only explanation.
Isaacsname
5 / 5 (2) Dec 11, 2011
Two other thoughts I had ~

Could have been graffiti of sorts, done after the original structure was built, iow, do they know they are from the same time period..?

Also, maybe they were meant for something, but never completed, that alone would cause endless confusion for archeologists attempting to determine a purpose..
Cam_
3.2 / 5 (9) Dec 11, 2011
This is for GhostofOtto FrankHerbert and Piroutte...
QUIT ARGUING ABOUT STUPID SHIT IF YALL ARE SUPPOSED TO BE SO SMART AND INTELECTUAL GROW UP AND GET OVER IT QUIT MESSING WITH EACHOTHER AND DISCUSS THE TOPIC.. but mainly this is towards ghost and frank yall kept eggin it on and going with it trying to prove yourself right when really you were wrong I mostly agree with Piroutte he was just putting his theory out there and trying to back it up, I know this has nothing to do with the topic either but i like reading and learning new things so when i read the comments i dont want to hear an immature argument
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.3 / 5 (9) Dec 11, 2011
Hello cam,
I notice you just joined physorg today. Welcome. Hey by any chance is y'all any relation to the wetbrain flooder balletstar pirouette? Just curious. Because y'all are usin' little affectations ta try ta make it look like yore someone else, and offering defense, and also suggesting that we mine diamond superplanets in the other thread... for diamonds I suppose? -which is a suggestion one the same approximate intellectual level as using wax (paraffin) for casting metal.

As to my theory of these mysterious grooves... I think they are blood grooves meant to draw blood away from the sacrifice of wetbrain dimwit flooders who endanger the sanity and gene pool of the ancient Canaanite/Israelite people. Otherwise the floor would become slippery and endanger the ritual priests.

This is my theory.
Isaacsname
3 / 5 (2) Dec 11, 2011
I kept thinking that one of the cut-outs looked somewhat familiar, like it shared a similar shape with something I've seen before....

http://en.wikiped...00gr.jpg

How about this for a slice of fried gold :P

It was some sort of merchant center, there was a hanging scale that was stored in multiple pieces in the floor. Disassembled and hidden when not in use, to prevent tampering, or stored on-site for symbolic reasons.

Isaacsname
3 / 5 (2) Dec 11, 2011
http://brunellesc..._300.jpg

See Fig. 4, very old type, dates back at least to Roman times.

A few more

http://www.isasc....Pendulum
Isaacsname
5 / 5 (1) Dec 11, 2011
Whoops, pendulum scales under that 2nd link, #11 in particular.
MarkyMark
3.6 / 5 (5) Dec 13, 2011
Bettin Cam is a sockpuppet for some moron.
Osiris1
1.8 / 5 (5) Dec 13, 2011
Methinks they are forms for the tips of battering rams for seiges and maybe for ships
signoftimes
4.7 / 5 (3) Dec 17, 2011
The problem with thinking that these are forms for casting a tool is that the temperatures to achieve molten steel was difficult to achieve (not impossible, difficult) in that time period. Iron does not have to be liquid first to be forged. Iron bars can be formed while never having been in liquid state. Casting iron this way in that time period for tools would have been doing it the hard way for sure. And if it were for casting steel, the preform prior to the forging would not be that shape. If it were cast and ground, the tools of the time were not conducive to grinding of that significance. While I see your thought process Pirouette, with iron it is a bit off. Though a preform for something else, like a chain? Plausible...
signoftimes
4.5 / 5 (2) Dec 17, 2011
Looking further at the pictures and other websites, a second problem I see is that there is no wear marks where a pry tool to remove the cast would have worn. I have done a lot of casting of various alloys and much iron work. There are ways around getting metal out without prying it out of course. I just see this as something likely more simple than metal work.
Noumenon
3.2 / 5 (88) Dec 21, 2011
The Dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled people make poor decisions and reach erroneous conclusions, but their incompetence denies them the metacognitive ability to recognize their mistakes. -Ironically FrankHerbert

Yeah I have to try to remember this... GhostOfOtto


You must have forgotten to seek medication for this affliction, GhostOfOtto,.. as is evidenced in the following thread, where you are attempt to pronounce the entire 'philosophy of physics' as a "sham", and not relevant to physics.

Indeed, "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge - Darwin".

http://www.physor...ard.html

Admittedly, I too have fallen under the spell of this phenomenon as a good portion of my posts in that thread were in vain due to "actual competence may weaken self-confidence, as competent individuals may falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding."
FrankHerbert
2.2 / 5 (84) Dec 22, 2011
Lol, well at least Noumenon is stalking someone else now.

Thanks Otto!
Pirouette
1.7 / 5 (18) Dec 22, 2011
@Noumenon. . . .thanks for coming in to view my hypothesis. I appreciate your input about the sickle idea. BTW Nou. . .smelting iron ore does need limestone which is ONE of the ingredients to make pig iron and slag, like you said.
FrankHerbert
3.1 / 5 (120) Dec 22, 2011
LMAO he said nothing about your dumb@ss "hypothesis". Did you even read his post? He's stalking Otto now. Apparently he realizes he cannot bully me off of this forum for having opinions different than him.

You'd be wise to follow suit.
RETT
5 / 5 (1) Dec 26, 2011
You'd all be wise to cool your jets a bit. The heat needed to produce iron of any quality would create spalling all over the place and most certainly in the grooves. In addition, the liquid iron could not be carried more than a few feet, if that far. Most molds were built directly under the source of the liquid iron. No such process could be carried out without leaving very obvious signs, even if every effort were made to clean up. Nothing that size would be used for gold or silver and bronze or copper would have most of the problems of iron production. In the areas where there are known facilities for production of copper, bronze, and then iron objects, there is slag and other signs everywhere. A "V" shaped slot, especially slots opposed to each other, would offer maximum stability for something anchored in them. Limestone is sufficiently porous that close examination of the rock with sensitive instruments should tell what was in those grooves, even if cleaned.
Pirouette
3.7 / 5 (44) Dec 27, 2011
LOL....now FrankHerb$hit comes back to tell more lies about Noumenon in addition to the lies he said about me. He should have a Pinocchio nose by now. FrankH has a new sockpuppet also. That's CAMSHAFT. . .strange user name for a very strange person.
Pirouette
1.9 / 5 (17) Dec 27, 2011
@RETT.. . .thanks for the info. . .it's duly noted. . .but, as with everyone else's hypothesis in this thread. . .I was only making a guesstimate. . .nothing more. And with your input and that of barakn's, I can accept that my opinion was incorrect. And that still leads us back to the mystery of the V shapes. I can't come up with any other ideas at the moment, can you?
TheGhostofOtto1923
3.2 / 5 (18) Dec 27, 2011
@RETT.. . .thanks for the info. . .it's duly noted. . .but, as with everyone else's hypothesis in this thread. . .I was only making a guesstimate. . .nothing more. And with your input and that of barakn's, I can accept that my opinion was incorrect. And that still leads us back to the mystery of the V shapes. I can't come up with any other ideas at the moment, can you?
-Says the lying flooder with the imaginary vet boyfriend from VietNam [sic]

Yah as I recall your quesstimate involved casting molten metal in wax (paraffin) molds, right? That wax would be 'lost' in very short order indeed. Please use your very best eluction to respond. For, as we know, the way in which something is said is far more important than the actual content. Is that not right? Did I explain it properly then?
FrankHerbert
3.1 / 5 (122) Dec 31, 2011
Here is an inscription worthy of an ancient temple:

I, Frank Herbert, King of Physorg, have vanquished the scourge known as Pirouette, irrational ballerina VietNam[sic] veteran.

On 12/27/12011 Human Era, the scourge ceased posting (http://www.physor...activity ). My best astronomers were able to determine via the unquenchable ferocity of the scourge's posting that the only explanation for his silence was banishment from the realm.

ALAS! He has returned in the form of NamVet666 (http://www.physor...activity ). He will be vanquished again with even more tireless effort and ferocity than before. The people rejoiced at my proclamations. I love my people.


Pirouette, all your base are belong to us. You have no chance to survive make your time.