Rossi's E-Cat gets first customers, but questions remain

According to Rossi, each module received an initial energy input of 400 watts

But since there is such a thing as cold fusion,

Fox got their story from Sterling Allen.

Steve, your reputation is for publicizing the reality of cold fusion and the cover-up by the hot fusion and other academic mafia, which I agree with. It could all be a psy-op. But since there is such a thing as cold fusion, why are you so skeptical that he has found something useful? I see you have your own pet theories about the theory behind the process, so I would say that undermines your credibility. Just looking at Rossi and Focardi makes it seem to me that they are being honest. I have a Ph.D. and worked at PLT, TEXT,Tore Supra and DIII-D. I suspect that you are not the best judge of reality, since I don't see any depth to your education.

You cannot call Rossi a fraud and neither can I because we will never know Rossi's true intentions and we will never be able to prove a negative.

Please explain me what kind of scam is Rossi planning. Rossi is not selling patents or ideas or shares of his company, does not ask for money to bring on his research. He sells 470 kW (or 1 MW maximum) heat generators.

Please explain me what kind of scam is Rossi planning... Maybe you think Rossi is the dumbest scammer ever?

And if it does not works the customer will surely make everybody knows.

Excuse me, are we all just going to ignore Rossi's research arrangement with the University of Bologne? That he's paying something like $500K for, out of pocket?

Unless you think the U of B is in on this scam, then I can't see how they continue to support his work. I don't hear them saying Rossi is a scammer, and they have hosted some of his tests. I don't hear them saying he's a scammer, and they are about to begin two years of research to try to pin down the underlying fundamental physics, and refine the technology.

And the University of Upsalla is next in line.

These research plans are clearly public knowledge, yet both universities say nothing against Rossi.

What have I missed?

@Nerdyguy : The first customer is probably, as I had read somewhere, a research lab of US Navy. But ok for the first, or the second, but you think Rossi can live long and happily by frauding such a kind of customers?

@Nerdyguy : The first customer is probably, as I had read somewhere, a research lab of US Navy. But ok for the first, or the second, but you think Rossi can live long and happily by frauding such a kind of customers?

UB has apparently had representatives at the demos. But They have publicly stated there is no official relationship between Mr. Rossi and them..as of yet.

(2nd hand info from some blog)

The first customer is probably, as I had read somewhere, a research lab of US Navy. But ok for the first, or the second, but you think Rossi can live long and happily by frauding such a kind of customers?

Nerdyguy : As I remember, Bernie Madoff worked with money, that is, numbers. Virtual things, not real generators. This is very different. As I said, if Rossi is a scammer, he will only fraud the first customer.

You don't aspect Apple to allow independent tests of his next phone, don't you?

There is no evidence for the existence of any customer. But your readers may not know this.

exit velocity I showed on videotape and Rossi's claim five minutes later that he had just shown me proof of kilowatts of heat

How rich was Bill Gates the day after he sold his first copy of software?

Whats making the answer so difficult to determine is the lack of a clear, scientific explanation of what exactly is going on.

Mr. Krivit I don't understand why you consider this such a pressing crisis.

Take this to the bank: the reason that AP is not reporting is that they are still chasing the story. When AP reports it will be much more than this bluster-muster that we see from the Specialty Press. And AP will NOT be seen on Physorg defending itself... ever... they will be out chasing the NEXT step in the story.

try to find any credible data that supports Rossi's claim

I fear the mysterious customers may be malevolent agencies and if they find the device poses a threat to the ruling oil-energy paradigm the E-Cat will vanish and the public will lose a valuable invention. That is the risk we all should fear, not the exposure of a harmless man with a fanciful dream.

I expect we all bit our lips when it turned out the chief engineer of the first customer is some kind of colonel..! "here we go.." ;)

I expect we all bit our lips when it turned out the chief engineer of the first customer is some kind of colonel..! "here we go.." ;)

Why? The army was a first customer of wast majority of advanced technologies. Don't you remember, how Internet originally emerged from Arpanet? We all are using a military technology by now.

Nobody knows what's in the black boxes Rossi has made. There are no theories, no peer reviewed science, not even thorough measurements over respectable time periods.

Let's not pretend that belief without evidence is science

you don't even know who his customers are

That's just plain wrong! While it is not impossible for Rossi to have faked a customer, there is evidence (evidence is not absolute proof) of a customer.

First, there is a signed contract that has been published on the net. That is evidence.

Second, the contract was signed by one Domenico Fioravanti. A bit of research on him shows that he has the necessary expertise and experience to do the evaluation. He has quite an illustrious and honorable history.

In his 2010 self-published paper, he claimed an energy gain of 213 times. Yet, in January 2011, Rossi downgraded the claim to a 30 times energy gain. In April, he downgraded his claim again, to 6 times.

I'm putting the question back to you: Using this case as an example, what can you do to help elevate the quality, or at least the awareness of quality science journalism?

I just wish Rossi would provide some details on the radiation generated when the ecat is running. I hear he claims that gamma ray spectrometry would reveal too many secrets but I'd like to at least hear the clocks from a Geiger counter.

I fear the mysterious customers may be malevolent agencies and if they find the device poses a threat to the ruling oil-energy paradigm the E-Cat will vanish and the public will lose a valuable invention. That is the risk we all should fear, not the exposure of a harmless man with a fanciful dream.

so the Hydrino process might be a participant in the overall e-cat effect

Take this to the bank: the reason that AP is not reporting is that they are still chasing the story. When AP reports it will be much more than this bluster-muster that we see from the Specialty Press. And AP will NOT be seen on Physorg defending itself... ever... they will be out chasing the NEXT step in the story.

Andrea Rossi is not scientist. He actually never wrote a single line about cold fusion research. He is interpreter and a private person, who is doing an applied research for his private money. Being private person, he is absolutely not obliged to provide any details about his technology, until he and his customers are comfortable with it. Everything else would be a violation of private intellectual property of Mr. Rossi.

So if physicists are interested whether the cold fusion is really working, they had twenty years for replication of perfectly documented experiments of Piantelli and Foccardi. They wasted this time in doing BS, so now they shouldn't be very surprised, if private investors don't require them for any validations of cold fusion technology.

Every ignorance comes with it's own price. The price which mainstream physicists are paying right now is the lost of credibility and competency for judgment and validation of important findings.

Steven Krivit; while there Rossi/Focardi and crew have been purposefully vague in details, they clearly have a made a tremendous discovery and created an invention from it. This will be transformative science. Its real.

MaryYugo is a fully paid up member of moletrap - a forum haven for pseudosceptics where the only game in town is James Randi, Richard (dogma) Dawkins, Penn and Teller (the less said the better), and any other establishment defenders you can think of.

While I think it's important to be sceptical, mindless pseudoscepticism is what we are being subjected to. Pseudoscepticism is defined as thinking that CLAIMS to be sceptical, but is actually faith-based disbelief. Pseudoscepticism may also be described as making pseudoscientific arguments in pursuit of a sceptical agenda.

Been doing a few searches around the net and - this seems to be building up some (here it comes)- steam!
Obviously Mr. Rossi will need to make licensing arrangements in order make this go global with any speed, tho. There is obviously no way to meet the massive potential demand by building his own manufacturing org. Ramp up costs would be too exorbitant. And the ROI would just take too long (for a lender to handle).
That said - I hope this doesn't get swept under a rug because of factors like that (among others). I sincerely hope the "too good to be true" paradigm - isn't. and I wish Mr. Rossi all the luck he can handle.

There is no proof, but the preponderance of evidence

There is no proof, but the preponderance of evidence is definitely in his favor. Too many physicists have come away convinced that this is not a fraud and that it must be a chemical reaction.

Too many physicists have come away convinced ...

To allow their name to be broadcast and used in association with a fraud would be unthinkable

These professors have a reputation to protect and their reputation is very important and valuable to them. To allow their name to be broadcast and used in association with a fraud would be unthinkable. The fact that they have NOT spoken out speaks volumes.

The disbelief without evidence is science neither... It's simply belief in negative hypothesis - that's all. No less, no more.

@Nerdyguy : The first customer is probably, as I had read somewhere, a research lab of US Navy. But ok for the first, or the second, but you think Rossi can live long and happily by frauding such a kind of customers?

The pseudosceptics in this thread seem to forget that for this to be a fraud, Rossi would now have to have conducted more than 5 public demos without anything being spotted, be the world's greatest actor, and that at least 30 other people and companies would need to be in on the scam.

And to what end? A scammer who refusese to accept any investment? Don't make me laugh. Your scam accusations have no basis in fact and are even MORE outrageous than cold fusion being real.

Pfft..

That's why we have to keep an open mind about Santa Claus' existence

[continued]

from what *Rossi says* rather than any kind of journalistic process which would normally include identifying sources and/or your attempts to perform any fact-checking. You owe your readers better than this.

You cannot call Rossi a fraud and neither can I because we will never know Rossi's true intentions and we will never be able to prove a negative. But we can identify whether the facts he presents are consistent with the physical laws of the universe. I and two dozen contributors have done this in Report 3. Rossi's claims are inconsistent with the scientific evidence he has attempted to sell to the public, not for its money, but for their support to help him advertise his claim.

The pseudosceptics in this thread seem to forget that for this to be a fraud, Rossi would now have to have conducted more than 5 public demos without anything being spotted, be the world's greatest actor, and that at least 30 other people and companies would need to be in on the scam.

And to what end? A scammer who refusese to accept any investment? Don't make me laugh. Your scam accusations have no basis in fact and are even MORE outrageous than cold fusion being real.

Pfft..

On October 28th, Rossi invited a few dozen people,

including a group of engineers from an unnamed potential US customer,

For the demonstration, Rossi connected dozens of modules

a nuclear reaction between hydrogen nuclei and nickel nuclei occurs,

releasing heat that is used to turn water into steam.

According to Rossi, each module received an initial energy input of 400 watts and produced a self-sustaining

Altogether, he claims that the device produced an average of 470 kilowatts in the form of steam for more than five hours.

Impressed with these results, the unknown US customer accepted delivery of a commercial E-Cat device.

Rossi has reported on his blog that he has sold more than two devices to other customers, which are also unnamed

he says that the customers will reveal their identities when they choose.

there is still a lot of confusion surrounding the device itself.

Theres not enough information to fully discredit the E-Cat device, nor to fully support it.

The AP Technology Writer Peter Svensson was among the spectators at the October 28th demonstration, but so far the AP has not published any coverage of the event.

Svensson responded, Stay tuned.)

One piece of evidence that suggests Rossi sincerely believes in the E-Cat is that he reportedly sold his house two months ago in order to fund the ongoing development.

He has been working around the clock on the technology,

as he has previously said, that the final word will come from the customers who use the devices to generate electricity, not from his critics.

what I see is an impressive self funded engineering project

The theory(s) could be totally off base, but something is going on.

These very smart guys have been working on this since 1995 and have been publishing their work.

It's real.

MaryYugo is a fully paid up member of moletrap - a forum haven for pseudosceptics where the only game in town is James Randi, Richard (dogma) Dawkins, Penn and Teller (the less said the better), and any other establishment defenders you can think of.

While I think it's important to be sceptical, mindless pseudoscepticism is what we are being subjected to. Pseudoscepticism is defined as thinking that CLAIMS to be sceptical, but is actually faith-based disbelief. Pseudoscepticism may also be described as making pseudoscientific arguments in pursuit of a sceptical agenda.

The whole point is, there exists a tension between Rossi and Piantelli, which probably dates from the 2008 year, when Rossi attempted to get...

... -- and provide some decent testing on the eCat.

If five major research institutions test the device and receive similar results, this whole thing could be put to bed and we could potentially move on to understanding the science behind the phenomenon. Assuming it exists at all.

... -- and provide some decent testing on the eCat.

If five major research institutions test the device and receive similar results, t...

Can you explain or support your requirement of the number "5" ?
Just which orifice produced that alleged standard??

I'm sure MIT would love to have a working Rossi reactor on their campus.

But when they get this documentation printed at glossy paper of journal of Italian Academy of Science, they're simply ignoring it.

It's the same situation, like with 60 percent of Americans, who still don't believe in evolution despite of any evidence.

Totally off-topic, but interesting. I've heard this nonsense all my life. I wouldn't say there's any kind of scientific proof that 60% of Americans don't believe in evolution.

However various religions are quite clear about it. including Southern Baptists, which 25 percent of Americans. There are MAJOR colleges in the South where the official stand is the world is 6000 years old.

I have had seen quite a few people that look at me as if I am an alien from another planet when I say there was no Great Flood. If you only know two people that think that way you live in a very unusual place.

Ethelred

There are MAJOR colleges in the South where the official stand is the world is 6000 years old.

I have had seen quite a few people that look at me as if I am an alien from another planet when I say there was no Great Flood. If you only know two people that think that way you live in a very unusual place.

Ethelred

Why are so sure about it with absolutely NO verifiable evidence that it works

Why are so sure about it with absolutely NO verifiable evidence that it works

Because I've read thousands (..well, hundreds actually..) of articles about cold fusion - so I can see their common points, which cannot be faked intentionally. You cannot see it, if you did read (nearly) nothing about it.

Now you're just blatantly making up things. There are no major colleges of any kind that espouse this belief.

Probably quite a few, in fact, who know enough to hold their tongue in public

- so I can see their common points, which cannot be faked intentionally.

Now you're just blatantly making up things. There are no major colleges of any kind that espouse this belief.

Depends on your definition of major. I did NOT make it up.

http://www.nwcrea...ges.html

Ethelred

No they speak right up. Maybe you aren't listening. It isn't like Sara Palin, George W. Bush and many other major politicians chose to be clear on this because it is anathema in public.

Ethelred

@Nerdyguy : Despite reports, witnesses, pictures, movies, let's say that nobody (but Rossi himself) can be sure it works, as nobody can be sure it doesn't. But "it is possible that it is a scam" does not prove a scam!

@Ethelred : There are two possibilities: Rossi has the real thing or he hasn't. In the second case, Rossi is a scammer. If somebody think Rossi is a scammer, should explain what strange kind of scam is he planning.

He's not asking if you believe cold fusion is a possibility. He's asking what makes you think that Rossi's device works.

@Ethelred : There are two possibilities: Rossi has the real thing or he hasn't. In the second case, Rossi is a scammer. If somebody think Rossi is a scammer, should explain what strange kind of scam is he planning.

NONE are major colleges.

Of course they would have some religious viewpoints

all areas of the U.S. were represented.

Major fail

I expected more from a self-professed genius like you

More opinion

You support your dubious assertion with more dubious assertions. Nice try

trying to say Bush claims that the earth is 6,000 years old?

Nerdguy's greatest assert is humor. He can disarm an entire thread commentary with one sentence:

http://www.physor...use.html

"Sure, then explain the photo above."

Someone down-rated the humor with his other comments in mind.
Identifying the independent humor with past track record.

NONE are major colleges.

Wheaton is a major college.

Of course they would have some religious viewpoints

Which is my point. They were not all Bible schools.

You support your dubious assertion with more dubious assertions. Nice try

Indeed it was perfect. Not my fault you don't know those things.

trying to say Bush claims that the earth is 6,000 years old?

Palin does. He supports Creationism in schools. Most of the Republicans running for President are also Creationist.

@Nerdyguy : Do you really think that "how you can say that Rossi has not already got money from some investor" or "he's backed himself into a corner.....If I had got money for something I know does not works, I would have leaved ASAP for another continent! And why do you think Rossi should go on on a dead way? To get where???

Lighten up Frances!

You take yourself waaayyyy too seriously!

And you have this pathological need to be right all the time.

Maybe you should consider getting the chip off your shoulder?

Or, getting the 2x4 out from your nether regions? :)

Or, getting the 2x4 out from your nether regions? :)

from the article:

According to Rossi, each module received an initial energy input of 400 watts

You mean, received energy at the rate of 400 W? Or received 400 Wh of energy? Or...? (Get your units straight.)

the contract with National Instruments?

who cares HOW it works. If it does let's get cracking and build MILLIONS of 'em

First, you make a blanket statement that is ludicrous, opinionated, and based on no facts whatsoever.

I called you on it, and proved that you were clearly off-base.

But, you just can't let it go, can you? You have a bizarre, twisted

believe anyone with an opinion different from yours is a threat that must be squashed.

I would recommend heavy doses of lithium, and perhaps some counseling.

It will help you with your anger

and your obvious oedipal complex.

You should also try using these public forums as an opportunity to hold rational, sane discourse which sticks to the topic at hand.

BTW, "Lighten up Frances" is a line from a movie.

It was funny then, and exponentially more so in light of your little tantrum.

Good luck, I wish you success!

But clearly, we have from Rossi's own site, from Rossi himself that the reaction definitely produces Gamma, and from even the video that the Gammas are produced, but they do not "escape" because they are trapped by the metals, particularly the lead, and "thermalized"...

from the article:

According to Rossi, each module received an initial energy input of 400 watts

You mean, received energy at the rate of 400 W? Or received 400 Wh of energy? Or...? (Get your units straight.)

1 watt = 1 joule / second...

I have noticed that assholes, after insulting people, tend to LIE that it was just a joke. When is was nothing of the sort.

I thank you for making your lack of manners so clear in that post.

I once tried to help you and you attacked me for it. You are just a load of ill humor masquerading as a joke.

Ethelred

We have pictures of the array in his shipping container. Where is the gamma shield?

Even if this E-Cat turns out to be real, it is bad science.

Sorry if this might duplicate a previous item here, but here is the NI-related article

Today, Andrea Rossi signed an agreement with National Instruments to have them make all of the instrumentation for the E-Cat cold fusion plants, which began to be sold commercially on October 28 with the first 1 MW plant successfully tested in Bologna.

I don't see anything on that page that says NI is buying anything for Rossi. It says ROSSI is buying from NI.

There is a slight problem with the claims of National Instruments...

Would a real fraud invest into people in this way?

At the case of failure he just would increase the risk of legal action from the side of these people.

You apparently never think in such way, do you?

It is SOP for fraud artists to spend money on looking like they are successful.

how Ponzi artists work

not into their factories and products.

After all, what you would get from your scam, if you would spend all profit in contracts with your partners?

Ponzi model is based on opportune transfer of business into another peers of the hiearchy.

Rossi exhibits no villingness to transfer his activities into another subjects - on the contrary.

Briefly speaking, if two people are doing the same thing, it may not be the same thing, until they're doing other things differently.

For example, the fact we are both posting to the same thread doesn't mean, we share the same motivations for it.

Hydride ion is of negative charge, so it's actually attracted to atom nuclei, instead of repulsed.

which are exhibiting cold fusion (Nickel, Palladium, Zirconium) tend to form hydrides too

But it may not be sufficient for complete explanation of cold fusion itself.

An extension of this work would universally swap Plancks constant and V t

Etelred, the simple negation of my posts is not an argument

You know, I'm not wasting my time with recognized internet trolls.

So you should consult your problems with founders of cold fusion, i.e. prof. Piantelli and F. Znidarsic, not with me

They wrote many publications about their models, so you can write some as well.

It was the science that was wrong.

Cold fusion may be possible but Rossi has gone out of his way to avoid giving proof

Cold fusion may be possible but Rossi has gone out of his way to avoid giving proof

This is just a conjecture of yours.

I'm perfectly sure, if cold fusion requires some secret ingredient, you would choose exactly the same secretive approach,

from Cola to microprocessors. And no one is questioning these things.

If you aren't suspicious to research of Piantelli, who is claiming COP=3,

I don't know, what's your problem with A. Rossi, who is claiming the COP=6

We should ask instead, if it's nuclear process

Rossi claims to have orders from customers in the US and Europe for thirteen more 1 MW units in addition to the undisclosed customer from the October 28 test. He offers these for sale at a rate of $2000/kilowatt, making the price for a 1 MW unit $2 million

No one is claiming to produce more power than they put in.

Riight. So all the hydro power plants are bullshit, because they only used scant power to open the floodgates to generate gigawatts of power.

And the few hundred pounds of explosives couldn't have liberated the fission bombs' power.

The designers and operators should be all lined up against the wall and shot pronto.

from Cola to microprocessors. And no one is questioning these things.

A large number of you speak confidently that it's a fraud. Again, I don't have enough data. Altho, it makes me think of Shakespeare"s "Me thinks thou does protest to much..."

I'm not a lawyer, but as an inventor I would be a little reticent in doing that in as much as I have seen what people will do with your invention once they see it

NO amount of legal protection is gonna stop them from copying your stuff, cuz it will take YEARS to sort out.

All the while they will be making money from YOUR invention.

Hell, look at all the current patent suits going on with Apple and the like.

I think Rossi understands the legal system better than you realize...

A hint - It ain't from little guys who invent crap in their garages.

Who said that? I didn't. Don't even care about him. 17 years and he can't convince people

Assuming none of us is a mega-industrialist or corporate giant, I just think we all aught to be rooting for the little guy, not knocking him.

And Red - psternts don't mean a thing.

Again, the lawyers will be the ones laughing all the way to the bank...(Now THAT's a scam)

patents, Not psternts

You took that comment completely away from within its context (about university funding).

And - perhaps they've been seduced by the dark side. money and success do evil things....

That's means planning ahead for every contingencies that may topple their empires and take away their bread and butter.

The scientific publications don't count for the people like you.

Because whole the existence of quarks, Big Bang and evolution is based just on scientific publications.

No one ever saw these things personally.

The people like you would deny the cold fusion from the same reason, like the sixty percent of Americans are denying the evolution by now.

Why I should care about them?

Why I should care about you?

In every case it has turned out be either at exceedingly low levels or dubious measurements.

Riight. So all the hydro power plants are bullshit, because they only used scant power to open the floodgates to generate gigawatts of power.

Wroong. I never said anything about power plants. Please learn how to read.

And the few hundred pounds of explosives couldn't have liberated the fission bombs' power.

Didn't mention that either.

So, you don't deny that by using a relative small amount of energy input, large amount of energy can be released, with suitable physical gizmo

All your objections are based on the lack of accepted theory explaining Rossi's device, while glossing over the floodgate principle implicit in my post.

My objections are the there is no evidence to support the E-cat

Evidence of quarks is even weaker, whereas we have thousands of publications about cold fusion effects

We are facing double standards here

existence of quarks can feed theorists

The consequence is undeniable: the mainstream physics has no interest about cold fusion research.

The problem isn't, that we haven't peer-reviewed evidence of cold fusion of hydrogen at nickel,

Whereas we have thousands of peer-revived attempts for gravitational wave detection.

Despite to these waves aren't real more, than any other phenomena discussed here.

And what's worse - we have no usage for them with compare to cold fusion.

ow is it possible, the mainstream physics is wasting money of tax payers in verification of useless phenomena

ignores the research of these useful ones?

The problem is that the evidence is reviewed by people that want to believe

And none of the efforts have had any expectation of finding the waves

The problem is that the evidence is reviewed by people that want to believe

And my objections are, there is no evidence of the lack of evidence supporting the E-Cat. Where's the problem?

Of course, the mainstream physicists don't want to believe it and they demonstrated it twenty years with their ignorance.

So that only believers remain by now.

but is it a problem of believers?

People that just don't like evidence.

Much like Kevin, deny the evidence and accept the excuses for that lack of evidence.

Why the people who don't believe in LHC safety and/or gravitational waves aren't allowed to judge the investments into LHC or gravitational waves detectors?

Japan pissed away 20 megabucks on cold fusion research. They don't waste the money anymore.

The LHC can only do one thing that cosmic rays don't already do.

Nope, the people, who don't like the evidence stayed at home and they never bothered to check Piantelli and Foccardi publications.

Well, this is a good example of pathological skeptic, who had support of whole mainstream physics

He was distinguished troll in this point in the same way, like you

unfortunately for you you're not even a recognized authority of mainstream science.

Neverthelles, the case of prof. Kelvin can serve as an example

It should be pointed out, Mr. Kelvin was convinced aetherist.

t illustrates, how the cyclic model of Universe is working.

Grow up. Maybe even get jobs. I don't care.
All this arguin bout who said what and what was said is this or that. sheesh...

It's a wait n see game at this point,

they should hook it up to a pc and log the data for review by the world

It's a wait n see game at this point, all the relevant comments have been made and the rest is just inter personal bickering. (altho I did find relevance in Otto's most recent post)

WE PETITION THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION TO:investigate the usefulness of the Energy Catalyzer, a creation of the Italian inventor Andrea Rossi.

Clearly they are frauds

But it doesn't work. Hence the secrecy.

None taken seriously by main stream science, and none appearing in reputable scientific journals

But I do not fail to see the F.R.A.U.D.

So you will only be hailed as the greatest man since Jesus rather than the greatest man since Jesus.

You don't get to vote on the US budget. Its not yours. You get to scream at the Czech government. Ubavontube can bug his representatives all he want but the US doesn't control LHC either.

The LHC can only do one thing that cosmic rays don't already do. Run the collisions where the sensors are. So Uva is just silly on this and if you agreed with him you were too.

Japan pissed away 20 megabucks on cold fusion research. They don't waste the money anymore.

the only difference between the two being sustainable hot fusion energy research has yeilded positive ...uh, some ...uh, I mean no net results either.

the only difference between the two being sustainable hot fusion energy research has yeilded positive ...uh, some ...uh, I mean no net results either.

Hot fusion research has produced results: fusion events have been created and now can be created demonstrably, predictably and repeatedly.

The whole thing rests on very solid theortical foundations (and simulations). No 'black box' or handwaving required.

The Q factor isn't, yet, high enough for self sustained operation - but that's about all that is missing.

But to say that this research hasn't produced any results is a complete lie.

Sure, fusion "events" have been produced, but never with sustainable net energy production.

I can produce more net energy than sustainable fusion energy research has ever produced, simply by lighting a match. Would you pay me billions of dollars for that?

Many of you will not live enough to experience the launch of this project.

...continued...

Japan pissed away 20 megabucks on cold fusion research. They don't waste the money anymore.

A mere pittance to the gobs of money wasted on sustainable hot fusion energy research - the only difference between the two being sustainable hot fusion energy research has yeilded positive ...uh, some ...uh, I mean no net results either.

What has my (or your) lifetime to do with the advancement of science or whether a project is worthwhile or not?

Tokamak and related programs have generated much essential knowledge on how to do this which we will need to store things like antimatter.

It doesn't provides positive results (COP > 1) - cold fusion does

It's price is much higher, than at the case of cold fusion - it will serve as a drain of money for another basic research projects

It will not finished before 2040, whereas the cold fusion is essentially ready for production

The usage scope of thermonuclear fusion is much more narrow, this process will not be scalable, not to say about production of neutrons and radioactive waste.

Something that doesn't work - even if less expensive - is still more of a waste than something that does

Anyone else find it a bit odd that the claimed output of the E-cat = 470kW while a running diesel generator rated at 500kW was connected to the E-cat for the duration? How long could that generator run at ~ 500kW output given it's limited fuel supply and how long was the test again? Just saying...

Hypotheses itself will be proven or disproven by the test.

Tests of scientific hypotheses will always be successful because they are designed to give a clear "yes" or "no".

So even, if Eddington was right, it doesn't imply you're right

They already are searching for a proof. While both you and them have their "pet" hypotheses.

explained you already, it's nonsense to store antimatter in neutral state, when the storage of antimatter in charged state is solved already and you can manipulate it in a much more easier way.

Your role here is to prove, that this condition equals exactly to TRUE.

It doesn't predict anything (because if it did, it would be testable).

Neutral state? You suggested an ion trap for storing plasma which is nonsense.

Hypothesis can predict some new evidence

We actually have no idea what Rossi has in his little box. He's not saying

Currently Penning traps are used in many laboratories worldwide. For example, they are used at CERN to store antiprotons.

Chances are somewhere, someone without greed who have had enough, will f@ck it all with a new discovery and make it available to everyone, democratics, theocratics, fanatics, anarchists, terrorists

Hi Ghost,
Hypothetically speaking, if I developed such and such power generator, and with no fuss, no comment, no fanfare whatsoever, flood the Net with explicit and exactingly detailed instructions of how to built one, how do you stop me?

Hi Ghost,
Hypothetically speaking, if I developed such and such power generator, and with no fuss, no comment, no fanfare whatsoever, flood the Net with explicit and exactingly detailed instructions of how to built one, how do you stop me?

Hypothetically speaking, what are your chances of doing so? And what makes you think the science exists to do so? And if for instance something like cold fusion was possible, dont you think it may have been sat upon until the world was ready for it, which could very well explain the state of cold fusion research today?

And do you really think you are captain nemo?

Hi Ghost,
Hypothetically speaking, if I developed such and such power generator, and with no fuss, no comment, no fanfare whatsoever, flood the Net with explicit and exactingly detailed instructions of how to built one, how do you stop me?

Hypothetically speaking, what are your chances of doing so? And what makes you think the science exists to do so? And if for instance something like cold fusion was possible, dont you think it may have been sat upon until the world was ready for it, which could very well explain the state of cold fusion research today?

And do you really think you are captain nemo?

Ah, the irony. He actually thinks that the scenario he describes would be impossible for a world-class military/intelligence organization to stop.Sadly, the technology exists to detect him and -- even if he were successful in posting his miracle -- .

Your answer is bounded with constraints that in my hypothetical question alredy put them aside. I await your insight on my question within such bounds.

No technology before its Time

I am talking about the Real World where, above a certain level, there is only One Side, dedicated to the survival of humanity in its best form......very long time.

Hypothesis can predict some new evidence

Hypothesis can predict the new connection between two existing phenomena too.

We actually have no idea what Rossi has in his little box. He's not saying

Many people have such an idea, me too.

You must be thinking of the Mossad, the top-notch assassin bunch bar none. If they are so good, why do they still whining about Iran's nuke? It should have been eliminated, hardware, theory, scientist, their children,cats, dogs and chicken and so on. And as we have seen, nobody has a f@ck all clue before a lone wolf starts shooting as in Norway. What do you say about that?
And by the way, according to you, it is a crime to disclose knowledge that will benefit humanity, in your words:" hunt him down, make him and everyone he ever met disappear, and remove all traces of his miracle posting"! Thank you for contemporary "moral" lessons.

I don't think we can consider your opinions as unbiased

When you're saying: "this phenomena is not possible", you're actually promoting your new private hypothesis - and in this moment the proof is up to you instead.

Please..point to the place where I said "it is a crime to disclose knowledge that will benefit humanity."

One step at a time. Get fusion right, then up the Q-factor. Slow and steady, that is how science works.

Energy from fusion requires a lot of steps. It's not all one thing.

No, because you cannot, _sustainably_ , scale up lighting matches to produce a lot of energy.

ITER is designed to actually start producing more than it needs (not on a continual basis, though.)

Not wasted. Toroidal magnetic confinement is the only known method of storing plasma in bulk. Tokamak and related programs have generated much essential knowledge on how to do this which we will need to store things like antimatter.

Whether it ever proves to be a viable way of producing energy is incidental to developing this capability. It just makes it easier to sell to the general public.

It also is generating valuable knowledge in materials, cryogenic superconductors, etc.

Lately all persons with a brainwave is going for the discovery-publicity-prototype-funding-customers-money&fame& route. However-without exception-with no peer reviews, expect peers to pee on your light bulb. Chances are somewhere, someone without greed who have had enough, will f@ck it all with a new discovery and make it available to everyone

You didn't know most of our generated power comes from combustion? Really?

ITER is designed to actually start producing more than it needs (not on a continual basis, though.)

No, it isn't.

Your propensity to feebly attempt to turn a commentator's own words against him is repugnant

I don't think we can consider your opinions as unbiased

The problem is somewhere else. The Popper's methodology of science is actually completely symmetric. When you're saying: "this phenomena is not possible",

Sure, but why scam the public?

How convenient and soothing to the soul, and you always come out so white it's disgusting. Does it remind anyone of the same modus operandi is being employed somewhere in ME?

Many people are saying: "the extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". But they forget, with respect to practical importance of cold fusion we should have a pretty solid reasons for its doubting.

In any case, only time will tell.

"You are right. ...How convenient and soothing to the soul, and you always come out so white it's disgusting. Does it remind anyone of the same modus operandi is being employed somewhere in the ME."

as a middle-age man I would view such outright shows of fervent optimism in the absence of proof to be very naive in any other aspect of life

is it not easier to put a satellite in place to mirror the sun when its night? then we have 2 times solar light for the price of one.

After all the sun is not bigger than a 50pence ,seen on earth

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How convenient and soothing to the soul, and you always come out so white it's disgusting. Does it remind anyone of the same modus operandi is being employed somewhere in ME?

Again you are assuming that there is some undiscovered science which would allow some guy to invent perpetual motion in his basement. But if there was, and if this guy did not care if he collapsed civilization and caused the deaths of millions by revealing it, then he should be killed yes?A wondrous tech which causes ruin is evil and so are the people who would unleash it. For instance would you have taught Aztecs and incas how to make gunpowder and bronze cannon and sail their million-man to Europe?

Did you assume...such an asinine assumption?
And, "you always come out so white it's disgusting". What exactly does that mean? ...could you explain why you would make such an asinine assumption?

But if there was...he should be killed yes?

A wondrous tech which causes ruin... and sail their million-man to Europe?

Hi Ghost, another take:

But if there was...he should be killed yes?

Suppose you have machine that can desalinate seawater for 10 cents a megaton, and/or give dirt cheap energy for everyone and make oil a real fossil. Now, YOU-TELL-ME-EXACTLY-HOW that will collapse civilization and kill millions?

That is why I underscored _sustainably_. Power from combustion isn't sustainable. Neither ecologically nor in terms of avaiability of fuels.

well, if you go to the mission statements then you'll find these first three which corroborate my statement:

- To momentarily produce ten times more thermal energy from fusion heating than is supplied by auxiliary heating (a Q value of 10)
- To produce a steady-state plasma with a Q value greater than 5
- To maintain a fusion pulse for up to 480 seconds.

Perhaps you are being naive on purpose? Why should the public spend billions on research facilities around the world for some obscure science which will not be applicable until after they're dead? Money is not cheap-

with just a minimal amount of theory to back up the results

We can do it now. Why haven't we?

Most certainly do these people have something to lose.

@frank and scepticus
This thread ... Renaissance right on Schedule.

Perhaps you are being naive on purpose? Why should the public spend billions on research facilities around the world for some obscure science which will not be applicable until after they're dead? Money is not cheap-

Uh, didn't you notice that fusion researchers readily admit they fully expect "the public to spend billions on research facilities around the world for some obscure science which will not be applicable until after they're dead?"

Rossi's machine is unsafe. D D = 4He. No excess neutrons which is 1 positive. The fusion burn emission is heat energy. Em energy. Positrons electrons and photons. And the ash is helium.

Palladium allows deuterium to burrow inside of its structural lattice. When charge is applied to palladium its porous nature ends. The D which burrowed inside gets pinched between the atoms in the lattice, 2 D atoms get pinched together and 4He comes out as well as em energy.