Pair claim they have turned hydrogen to metal

Nov 15, 2011 by Bob Yirka report
hydrogen
Protium, the most common isotope of hydrogen. Image: Wikipedia.

(PhysOrg.com) -- Many have tried, but none have succeeded. For at least a hundred years, scientists looking at hydrogen have scratched their chins when musing over the fact that it, as an alkali metal, by all rights should exist as a metal under the right circumstances. But thus far, no one has been able to figure out what the right circumstances might be. Until now. Maybe. Mikhail Eremets and Ivan Troyan of the Max-Planck Institute describe in their paper published in Nature Materials, how they subjected a sample of hydrogen to high pressure and low temperature and found it then demonstrated properties generally ascribed to a metal.

One of the problems in attempting to say whether something is a or not, is the somewhat flimsy criteria used to describe just what exactly a metal is. Most dictionaries describe it loosely as an electropositive element that probably should be shiny, a good of both heat and electricity and should be malleable to some degree. And of course, common sense says that it probably ought to be solid at some temperature or pressure. And that’s the crux of the matter in trying to get hydrogen to look and act like a solid. All manner of people have subjected it to either or both and have failed to produce anything that most would say is a metal and that’s why this latest attempt by Eremets and Troyan has met with less than wild enthusiasm in the science world.

Regardless, they say that when they put a sample of hydrogen in a alumina-epoxy gasket that they put inside of a diamond anvil cell, an arrangement that allowed them to test the opacity via laser and the electrical resistance using electrodes, they found that without heating or cooling and at a pressure of 220GPa, the sample clouded to the point of becoming opaque and began to demonstrate an ability to conduct . Next, the temperature was lowered to 30K and the pressure increased to 260GPa where they found an electrical resistance increase of 20 percent, before it leveled off. This the team says, shows the sample displaying metallic attributes.

Others will of course have to duplicate the process and find the same results, and if they do, then discussions will likely ensue among the scientific community to determine if what was observed can truly be used to claim that the process does indeed turn hydrogen into a metal.

On the other hand the whole point might be made moot by the simple fact that the procedure clearly can make conductive at room temperature, which means it could conceivably turn out to be that elusive superconductor that scientists the world over have been searching for.

Explore further: Technique simplifies the creation of high-tech crystals

More information: Conductive dense hydrogen, Nature Materials (2011) doi:10.1038/nmat3175

Abstract
Molecular hydrogen is expected to exhibit metallic properties under megabar pressures. This metal is predicted to be superconducting with a very high critical temperature, Tc, of 200–400 K, and it may acquire a new quantum state as a metallic superfluid and a superconducting superfluid2. It may potentially be recovered metastably at ambient pressures. However, experiments carried out at low temperatures, T<100 K, showed that at record pressures of 300 GPa, hydrogen remains in the molecular insulating state. Here we report on the transformation of normal molecular hydrogen at room temperature (295 K) to a conductive and metallic state. At 200 GPa the Raman frequency of the molecular vibron strongly decreased and the spectral width increased, evidencing a strong interaction between molecules. Deuterium behaved similarly. Above 220 GPa, hydrogen became opaque and electrically conductive. At 260–270 GPa, hydrogen transformed into a metal as the conductance of hydrogen sharply increased and changed little on further pressurizing up to 300 GPa or cooling to at least 30 K; and the sample reflected light well. The metallic phase transformed back at 295 K into molecular hydrogen at 200 GPa. This significant hysteresis indicates that the transformation of molecular hydrogen into a metal is accompanied by a first-order structural transition presumably into a monatomic liquid state. Our findings open an avenue for detailed and comprehensive studies of metallic hydrogen.

via RCS

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antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (8) Nov 15, 2011
On the other hand the whole point might be made moot by the simple fact that the procedure clearly can make hydrogen conductive at room temperature, which means it could conceivably turn out to be that elusive superconductor

Conductivity is not equal to superconductivity.

They clearly say that the hydrogen samples show resistance at those pressures (so no superconductivity). Or am I reading this wrong?
TheQuietMan
5 / 5 (5) Nov 15, 2011
That is how I read it. But the superconductive state is theoretical, if this is real metallic hydrogen then theory may have to be updated. This is what science is all about.
Vendicar_Decarian
1.5 / 5 (10) Nov 15, 2011
At what pressure does the electron colapse to the sub zero valance state and the hydrogen atom become a bydrino, the mythical electron state that permits the fusion of hydrogen and heavy atomic nuclei?

rawa1
1.3 / 5 (13) Nov 15, 2011
This is just a example of basic research, the application of which is very disputable. Such metallic hydrogen exists only at the tiny volume between pair of diamond anvils. Until we find some way, how to extend the scope of its existence, we cannot use it for anything useful. So we should rather invest into another research, which can bring the applications faster.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (21) Nov 15, 2011
Such metallic hydrogen exists only at the tiny volume between pair of diamond anvils. Until we find some way, how to extend the scope of its existence, we cannot use it for anything useful.

You mean just like we first had tiny grains of brittle metals that we could get to be superconducting? Or how we got tiny flakes of graphene?

Yeah. Throw it all out and do something useful.

If scientists listened to people like you we'd never discover anything.
rawa1
1.1 / 5 (14) Nov 15, 2011
For example, what would happen, if we would shot the ions from hydrogen plasma at the single place of diamond crystal in device, similar to electron microscope? The portion of ions would penetrate the surface and it could create the zone of high pressure of hydrogen beneath it. Unfortunately, the accelerated hydrogen tends to hydrogenate carbon bonds in diamond and to react with it.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (9) Nov 15, 2011
Do you even have a clue what you are talking about?

Shooting stuff at stuff inside an electron microsocope? Do you even know what an electron microscope looks like (much less how one works)?

This is absurd on so many levels...
rawa1
1.4 / 5 (5) Nov 15, 2011
Do you even know what an electron microscope looks like
This device would appear like the electron microscope, but it would use the accelerated hydrogen ions instead of electrons. You may think about it like about tiny linear accelerator. It could use the electrostatic or electromagnetic lens for focussing of proton jet at target in the same way, like the electron microscope or linear collider.

What is absurd about it? It's a common ion implantation technique.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (8) Nov 15, 2011
What exactly would be the point?
Embedding hydrogen in carbon? That's not really something new.

This article is about getting (bulk) hydrogen to behave like a metal - not individual hydrogen ions embedded in a diamond. How do those two even relate remotely? Until you get 'bulk' from something as wispy as an ion stream in an accelerator you'll have to wait a fair bit.

And how exactly do you build a 'tiny linear accelerator' for protons to the speeds you are suggesting? Electron microscopes aren't exactly tiny themselves. Using something a thousand times as heavy as an electron (i.e. protons) would mean that you'd need a considerably larger apparatus (even if what you propose to do made any sense)

And how in the blue blazes does any of this grok with your gripe about:
Until we find some way, how to extend the scope of its existence, we cannot use it for anything useful. So we should rather invest into another research
a few minutes ago? That's just the height of inconsistency.
Nerdyguy
3 / 5 (1) Nov 15, 2011
What exactly would be the point?
Embedding hydrogen in carbon? That's not really something new.


I was wondering if anyone saw a useful, practical application for this, like energy storage.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (3) Nov 15, 2011
You mean using an accelerator (which uses TONS of energy) to shoot INDIVIDUAL hydrogen ions into a block of carbon - so deep that you cannot subsequently get them out? (Also note that you cannot use an accelerator on hydrogen atoms - only on ions)

No. I think no one thought of using that as a hydrogen storage method because it's rather stupid.

Using graphen layers for hydrogen storage is another matter. That is being studied and seems promising
http://www.physor...335.html
Needs a few tweaks, though, to become comptitive with other solutions (metal hydrides or simple high presure cryogenic storage)
rawa1
1 / 5 (12) Nov 15, 2011
You mean using an accelerator to shoot INDIVIDUAL hydrogen ions into a block of carbon - so deep that you cannot subsequently get them out?
Yep. To form superconductive stripe beneath the surface of diamond. Of to ignite thermonuclear fusion there (if we would use tritium ions instead of protium ones).
Using graphen layers for hydrogen storage is another matter.
Graphen layers can be separated easily. After all, hydrogen storage is nonsense, when the cold fusion is working. There's no need for it.
rawa1
1 / 5 (11) Nov 15, 2011
IMO even if we ignore the hydrogenation of diamond, the problem will be, the diamond lattice is resistant against stretching, but its tensile strength during pulling is far not so good. So we could try to inject the hydrogen atoms/ions into multiwall fullerenes.

http://adsabs.har...80o5420L
Kingsix
5 / 5 (6) Nov 15, 2011
Whoa even the bullcrap here is way over my head.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (11) Nov 15, 2011
Don't get fazed by someone plucking random technical terms that he doesn't understand out of thin air. Bullcrap is bullcrap - no matter how you dress it up.
Callippo
2 / 5 (8) Nov 15, 2011
Bullcrap is bullcrap - no matter how you dress it up.
Lack of arguments in response is bullcrap automatically. Usage of tautologies in response is bullcrap squared.
TopherTO
5 / 5 (7) Nov 15, 2011
I come to physorg precisely because this stuff is over my head. I humbly understand my ignorance, yet am still fascinated by science/physics.

Sometimes difficult to get my head around it all, but I keep reading nonetheless.
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (4) Nov 15, 2011
Lack of arguments in response is bullcrap automatically


Allright. I thought it would be blindingly obvious but I'll give the argument to:
So we could try to inject the hydrogen atoms/ions into multiwall fullerenes.

And what would be the point? How do you plan on getting the hydrogen back out? (A good storage medium means also 'easy retrieval')
Not to mention that if you 'shoot' something into a fulleren you'd be destroying the bucky ball. (No, atoms don't suddenly materialize inside other structures when you shoot them into it)

We can create fullerenes that contain hydrogen (By simply creating fullerenes the usual way within a hydrogen atmosphere). But the energy cost for making fullerenes is high. From:
http://www.nanowe...2999.php
it is very difficult to synthesize them, because they are highly endothermic

Which means that you put a lot more energy in than you get out.
MorituriMax
not rated yet Nov 15, 2011
Damn Callippo, looks like he called you on your bullcrap bullcrap.

8 )
electrodynamic
5 / 5 (1) Nov 16, 2011
If you guys don't stop swinging your brains around someones going to get hurt.Ha Ha. I was kind of wondering about the super conductor statement myself. Find a conductor we don't have to freeze, or set a planet on top of it to make it work. Ha Ha
rawa1
1 / 5 (4) Nov 16, 2011
How do you plan on getting the hydrogen back out?
What dou you have with hydrogen storage all the time? I said, I want to prepare highly compressed phase of hydrogen or deuterium, capable of fusion or room temperature superconductivity at least. Didn't I say already, that hydrogen storage is useless with respect to cold fusion? This article is motivated with hydrogen storage neither.
Find a conductor we don't have to freeze
This superconductor was found already, this finding is just ignored for years in the same way, like the cold fusion finding.
eachus
5 / 5 (1) Nov 16, 2011
Ignoring all the nonsense, there really is something weird going on here. Lots of others have tried to make hydrogen metallic at high pressure and have failed. What is different here?

My guess is that either the alumina or the epoxy used catalyzed the transition. (Normally diamond anvil cells use iron washers as the gasket material.) Assuming that this really is a metallic hydrogen state, the next step is to try alloying with various metals (like lithium and beryllium) to hunt for a superconducting material. (The metal formed here--assuming that it is one--is non-crystalline.)
Callippo
1 / 5 (2) Nov 16, 2011
Is there really a reason for hydrogen to become metallic at high pressure? For example, compressed sodium metal changes itself into insulator instead.

http://www.physor...ing.html

http://www.physor...532.html

The theory is one thing, the reality another one.
whitiedave
5 / 5 (1) Nov 17, 2011
interesting esp all the comments, but if I personally were to sink any stock into something, it would be nano-technology :)
Pkunk_
1 / 5 (1) Nov 19, 2011
I'm guessing this has huge implications for the "electric universe" theorists.. Wondering where they've been lately ?
hyongx
1 / 5 (2) Nov 19, 2011
The only reason we cant make hydrogen metal is because we are stuck on earth once we go to new planets we will find many more exciting elements that arent on earth and can make hydrogen metal in atmosphere that is not oxygen because we will breath something else
Omega9850
1 / 5 (1) Nov 19, 2011
I find it kind of funny how a lot of us bicker over the slightest comment or opinion... Turning Hydrogen into metal may not seem that big of a deal on the first thought, however it has some very useful applications. Probably the biggest... Nuclear Fusion; stars are theorized to have such pressures in there cores, where fusion occurs, that the hydrogen is not only a plasma, but also conductive, having metal-like properties. If we were to, and I can bet that we probably are, put Deuterium and Tritium under such conditions, and then rapidly increase the temperature of the vessel, with appropriate cooling of course, could possibly achieve a controlled nuclear fusion reaction. As for the comment of implantation, what about controlled fusion chains? If there was a trail of hydrogen implanted, controlled fusion could be achieved. As for implanting hydrogen in carbon, its a good idea, but its making Hydro-Carbons... So essentially, you all had good ideas.

Have a nice weekend all!
KBK
1 / 5 (1) Nov 20, 2011
Now take all this and go to ROSSI'S COLD FUSION, his e-cat machines...which uses hydrogen tickled via RF, under pressure, with heat applied. the hydrogen is used along with an alkali catalyst, and this mixture reacts with nano nickel powder. ie, alchemy. the nano nickel has a very specific atomic configuration, regarding alignment and number of atoms in each nano bit. this creates specific levels of atomic energetic capacity. desirable states.

Very, very simple, essentially.

The mixture goes into a heat producing catalytic state. One of the effects is some of the nickel is transmuted into copper.

Cold fusion. plain and simple, right by the rules on this forum and news report.

How many times do some of you need to see such things --before you get the point?

Thank you for your time.