Coins show Herod built only part of Second Temple walls

Nov 23, 2011 by Hazel Ward
Two ancient bronze coins which according to Israel Antiquities Authority (IAA) archaeologists were struck by the Roman procurator of Judea, Valerius Gratus, in the year 17/18 CE and recently were revealed in excavations beneath the Western Wall in Jerusalem's Old City are exposed to the media.

Israeli archaeologists have uncovered ancient coins near the Western Wall in Jerusalem's Old City which challenge the assumption that all of the walls of the Second Temple were built by King Herod.

The coins, which date back to around 15 AD, were found inside a Jewish ritual bath located at the foot of the western wall of the Second Temple, which was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD, said on Wednesday.

Until now, archaeologists and scholars have largely accepted that the Roman king was responsible for construction of both the Temple and its walls in a project completed by the time of his death in around 4 BC.

During the dig, archaeologists found the ritual bath, or mikveh, had been filled in to make way for construction of the wall, part of which was built directly on top of it, with the coins found in the half which was not covered by the foundation stones.

"Until today, accepted wisdom said that all the walls were built by Herod," said Eli Shakoun, an archaeologist from the Israel Antiquities Authority who led the dig with Professor Ronny Reich of University.

Archaeologist Eli Shukron of the Israel Antiquities Authority kneels inside a ritual bath exposed beneath the Western Wall in Jerusalem's Old City. Israeli archaeologists have uncovered ancient coins near the Western Wall in Jerusalem's Old City which challenge the assumption that all of the walls of the Second Temple were built by King Herod.

"When we found these coins which were dated about 20 years after Herod's death, we understood that it couldn't have been him who built this part of the wall," he explained.

The find also showed that construction of the walls had taken at least 40 years, which is longer than previously thought, Reich told reporters.

"Herod started building in the 18th year of his reign, which was around 22 BC, and here we have coins (underneath the wall) which date back to at least 15 AD, which show it was at least 40 years," he said.

The mikveh and the were discovered in the last two months during excavations of a 2,000-year-old drainage channel which stretches from a site near the Western Wall and the adjacent Al-Aqsa mosque compound and runs under the Old City to end in the Arab neighbourhood of Silwan.

of the 600-metre tunnel has caused controversy as the site is very close to the mosque compound, which houses the third holiest site in Islam and is known to Muslims as Haram al-Sharif or the Noble Sanctuary.

The mikveh was uncovered dozens of metres from the Western Wall, one of the holiest sites in Judaism, revered as the last remaining remnant of the Second Temple.

Israeli excavations and construction work in the Old City often stir controversy, particularly around the Western Wall which backs onto the Al-Aqsa mosque compound, one of the most contentious sites in the Middle East conflict.

Israel occupied and later annexed east Jerusalem, which includes the Old City, during the 1967 Six-day War and considers it to be its "eternal and indivisible capital."

But the Palestinians oppose any extension of Israeli control over the city's eastern sector which they want as the capital of their future promised state.

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flashgordon
2.8 / 5 (11) Nov 23, 2011
Yes, coins! There's coins from Minoans showing mazes, showing how important mazes were to them; there's Greek coins of geometric algebra; there's coins of Alexander the Great with rams horns no less! Coinage of major historical figurs from every culture; but, there's no coins of a Jesus Christ! There's even Jewish coinage before and after the supposed life of this Jesus Christ figure; but, there's no coinage of Jesus Christ!

A man who walks on water, heals the sick, causes a massive ruckus by overturning the markets and gets himself killed because of it leaves 1) no artwork(not even coins!) 2) no historical mention till a hundred years later.

As the New Testament says over and over again, Jesus Christ was derived from scripture! Says alot about people when they miss that one! Yea, there was no Jesus Christ! Jesus Christ was just a roman empire effort to pacify the messianic Jews!(hence why Jesus Christ says pay unto Caesar what is his! Pay your taxes Jews!)
flashgordon
2.8 / 5 (9) Nov 23, 2011
Remarkably, because of the Romans effort to pacify the Messianic Jews(who were waiting for a Messiah to come and save them and destroy . . . everybody else and give them all the worlds wealth), the Romans created a gentler sacrificial religion! Instead of blood anything(whether animals or humans) sacrifice, now it's a sacrificial figure to sweep away your sins; now, you can sin all day long; so long as you believe in the Roman empire and pay your taxes; just go to church every "Sun" day to clear your sins!
flashgordon
2.7 / 5 (7) Nov 23, 2011
Oops, I forget to mention the Jews said this Jesus Christ never came; hence, why they were made out as Christ killers; So the reason why the Jews were hated so much is because they said Jesus Christ never came(this is in the Gospels by the way! And, why Paul is made out to hate Jews in the Pauline epistles which seem to be later century forgeries as well!
eachus
1.6 / 5 (7) Nov 23, 2011
Years ago, I had a conversation with a graduate student of Art History at the Clarke Art Institute in Williamstown, MA. We were friends and neighbors, in fact we lived in an apartment building within easy walking distance of the Clarke. He was trying to figure out which of the paintings from Rembrant van Rijn's studio were actually painted by him. I suggested a different direction. Figure out who did paint the parts of Rembrant's works which gained him his reputation. (It was common in Rembrant's day for apprentices to do the backgrounds for portraits.)

flashgordon is flailing at a similar issue. If Jesus did not exist, who was the genius who wrote the Quelle? (The supposed--but never found source of Jesus' words quoted in Matthew and Luke.) Or to put it more directly, who wrote (or gave) the Sermon on the Mount? It is hard to imagine any such person remaining unnamed while his speeches and parables survived.
flashgordon
2 / 5 (8) Nov 23, 2011
some people are so gullible . . . and wishy washy! Then, they ignore the facts; such as the Pauline epistles not mentioning any gospel details(and further saying Jesus Christ is just derived from scripture)

I gave plenty of clues,

16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
16:27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen

Jesus Christ was kept a secret of the mysterys; if you know anything about the ancient world it should be the Greek mystery schools. That is sungod mysteries.
flashgordon
2.1 / 5 (7) Nov 23, 2011
That would be romans 16:25 through 27

and here we go, salute . . . herodians! 16:11 Salute Herodion my kinsman. Greet them that be of the household of Narcissus, which are in the Lord.

Salute Hermes a Greek god! in the same chapter! That's right, there's more than one god; but Jehovah is a jealous god!
flashgordon
2.6 / 5 (5) Nov 23, 2011
And according to Acts 13:1, Herod of Tetrarch is amongst the first Christians at Antioch!
Pirouette
3.3 / 5 (7) Nov 23, 2011
The Jews could not accept Jesus (Yeshua) as their messiah because he did not remove the Romans from their midst. The Jews were also not interested in their soul entering heaven in the afterlife; they were only interested in their freedom and ridding themselves of their oppressors in THIS life. Since Yeshua was only promising a place in heaven for his followers, the majority of the Jews regarded him as a flake to be ignored and/or persecuted. I'm sure he existed in those times, but he was not what the Jews had hoped for, and since he was not popular with most of his own people, no coins were made with his image or much written about him.
It's the old question of: "what can you do for me and my situation?". After all, the great messiah of the Jews was supposed to "save" them and make them all wealthy. The "chosen people" and all that.
flashgordon
1 / 5 (5) Nov 23, 2011
Oh lets look at more Roman emperor influence of Christianity!

http://en.wikiped..._Clement

Yes, that's right, Flavius Clement was brother of Roman emperor Vespasian who sacked the Second temple! Flavius is an official roman emperor title. Amongst those who took on the Flavius title was Flavius Josephus! A Jew who decided all the messianic jews were crazy and making their own blues. He decided it was much better to be a Roman than a Jew! He annointed Emperor Titus as "The Annointed One"!

And oh, look at this! Flavia Domitella who made the largest christian catacombs!

http://en.wikiped..._(saint)
flashgordon
1 / 5 (4) Nov 23, 2011
http://en.wikiped...0424.jpg

"Vespasian sestertius, struck in 71 to celebrate the victory in the Jewish Rebellion. The legend on the reverse says: IVDEA CAPTA, "Judaea conquered"."
Pirouette
3 / 5 (4) Nov 23, 2011
Their messiah was supposed to come to them as a great leader, their own Caesar to lead them out of bondage and fight against the Roman armies as God had led the ancient Jews against the Philistines, Malekites, etc.
It never materialized and the Jews are still waiting for their messiah. It still hasn't occurred to them that, if Jesus was the real messiah of the Jews, they missed out big time since it was the Jews that turned him in to the Romans, according to the N.T.
Pirouette
1 / 5 (2) Nov 23, 2011
That is such a tragic story. I had never heard of a Saint Domitilla.
flashgordon
1.8 / 5 (5) Nov 23, 2011
Domitian executed an Epaphroditus. Epaphroditus funded Flavius Josephus books. He is also mentioned in the Pauline Philipians epistle as an Apostle of the Lord. Wiki, here,

http://en.wikiped...hroditos

says these two Epaphroditus's are not the same! It doesn't give a reason; i'm thinking whoever wrote the wiki just doesn't like the connection of Epaphroditus, Josephus and Paul in the New Testament! Domitilla is also mentioned in the New Testament(I'd have to go look up my notes!)
flashgordon
2 / 5 (4) Nov 23, 2011
Domitilla's steward managed to get Domitian assasinated,

http://en.wikiped...Domitian

"Assassination


According to Suetonius, Domitian worshipped Minerva as his protector goddess with superstitious veneration. In a dream, she is said to have abandoned the emperor prior to the assassination.
Domitian was murdered on 18 September 96, in a palace conspiracy organized by court officials.[130] A highly detailed account of the plot and the assassination is provided by Suetonius, who alleges that Domitian's chamberlain Parthenius was the chief instigator behind the conspiracy, citing the recent execution of Domitian's secretary Epaphroditus as the primary motive.[131][132] The murder itself was carried out by a freedman of Parthenius named Maximus, and a steward of Domitian's niece Flavia Domitilla, named Stephanus."
flashgordon
1.7 / 5 (6) Nov 23, 2011
Jesus Christ is not mentioned amongst the dead sea scrolls.

Once again, people make artwork of major events and people. If there was a Jesus Christ, the mediterraenean would have been plastered with Jesus Christ all over the place. Instead, you see nothing . . . not even in the christian catacombs.
Kayreios
5 / 5 (3) Nov 23, 2011
Why is this article on the front page?
Ktisis
3.7 / 5 (10) Nov 23, 2011
flashgordon:
Wow...I've not seen such a diatribe of argument from silence and of a lack of historical investigation like yours in many years.
1. You will not find Roman coins of the first century with any Jewish leader on them, why would Jesus, an itinerate preacher whose ministry lasted for 3 years, make Him coin-worthy? He was not a political leader.
2. The fact that we do have several non-Christian sources who mention Jesus within a few decades of His life is so historically astounding as to put this issue beyond question, except for hardcore skeptics who "require" illogical levels of "proof".
3. Paul addressed Herodias (a common first name in the mid-first-century Roman empire) not the false god Hermes.
4. Your claim about artwork is demonstrably false. The Jewish temple, beautified by Herod, was considered almost as one of the ancient wonders of the ancient world, yet almost no artwork of it has survived. A lack of artwork does not imply non-existence.
Ktisis
4.2 / 5 (10) Nov 23, 2011
flashgordon:
The Dead Sea Scrolls were primarily written in the 2nd and 1st century BCE (before the birth of Christ...BCE-Before Common Era). So we would not expect His name to be found there (since He hadn't been born yet), but there are many prophecies there of the coming Messiah who would be born, suffer, die, and rise again.

And, concerning the Essenic material that was written during the first century (of the Qumran-DSS materials) these were not Christians, but strict Jews, therefore, since they wrote very little historical information (most of the scrolls are copies of old testament scripture or rules for daily living and purification) we would not expect to find historical accounts of Jesus.

Please study about the source/date/content of the DSS materials before posting about them.

Your argument is like reading the American Constitution and then saying that the American Revolution never happened, because the Constitution doesn't talk about it. Illogical.
flashgordon
1.6 / 5 (5) Nov 24, 2011
Here's a bunch of Agrippa coins,

http://www.google...=agrippa coin&hl=en&prmd=imvnsfd&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=7SvOTt_OBq2-2AXsqsyrDw&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CBkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=657

As for the rest of your criticisms . . . dead sea Scrolls didn't mention Jesus Christ as you say, and temple art no longer existent(the temple no longer exists from back then), or Paul was talking about Herodias instead of Hermes . . . well, your clearly not worth argueing with! You just don't get it. And just the couple of things I've mentioned here prove it.
M_N
2.3 / 5 (6) Nov 24, 2011
And according to Acts 13:1, Herod of Tetrarch is amongst the first Christians at Antioch!
It says no such thing - it says one of the Christians had been "BROUGHT UP with Herod the tetrarch". Also, you seem to be confusing Herod the tetrarch with Herod the Great - they were different people!

I have no idea why you bother posting so much on topics you clearly have no understanding about...
WorldJunkie
4.7 / 5 (3) Nov 24, 2011
A fascinating argument above, Jesus Christ and all. Nothing to do with the article though.
But back to the article itself:
I'm afraid I don't fully understand the logic of their conclusion. How can one estimate the period in which an artifact was created by existence of random objects of more recent origin found in its vicinity?
I mean, it would make a bit more sense if, say, it were the other way around, and the coins were much older than the supposed period of the temple's creation, and not in use during that time anymore. THEN one could say that the temple was actually built earlier.
But making the conclusion they made is like saying that an empty cola can found near the Giza pyramid means that it was built in 21st century.
What if the temple was built by Herod, as supposed earlier, and some 40 years later someone dropped some coins in the mikveh by accident.
Plausible? I think so.
flashgordon
1.7 / 5 (6) Nov 24, 2011
I post these more in retaliation for past articles that were not even as scientific as this one! Some of those are so religious and not scientific that to have them on here is really quite striking!

There were articles on two thousand year old nails, angels, and Leonardo Da Vinci's last supper painting. These are really quite psuedo-science.
FrankHerbert
1 / 5 (54) Nov 24, 2011
Coins are excellent primary historical sources! I have a coin commemorating the founding of Byzantium into Constantinople circa 330 CE. On the obverse is the personification of Constantinople and the reverse has the classic image of Victory on a prow.

The empire had not officially adopted Christianity yet, though it was spreading and the emperor was actively flirting with adopting the religion. Therefore, it is reasonable to state that the winged creature on the reverse of the coin is not an angel, but Victory standing on the prow of a ship, a common Roman theme.

I make the distinction because the coin itself is evidence that the ubiquitous angels of Christianity are directly plagiarized from Roman state religion. One cannot make the case that the image is that of an angel, one cannot deny the striking resemblance of this creature with an angel, and one cannot claim angels came first (as there is historical evidence).

The common Christian image of an angel is actually a pagan deity.
flashgordon
2.3 / 5 (6) Nov 25, 2011
Nice find FrankHerbet!
flashgordon
1.7 / 5 (6) Nov 26, 2011
We clearly have immature conditioned scientists. I will continue to destroy this messianic dictator religion.
persontodd
5 / 5 (1) Nov 26, 2011
I find it odd how there seems to be two working streams of history in "Biblical Archeology." There is the traditional school which reads the Biblical text and other ancient sources as basically reliable and the more modern school that rejects those sources - in the main. The discovery of these coins would not really surprise a traditionalist as ancient sources tell us that Herod's began the rebuilding but that the work continued through about 60 years with the project only being completed a few years before the revolt and eventually destruction of the great temple itself. (Some have surmised that the unemployment that resulted from the completion of these great projects was one of the stressors leading to the revolt.) It is highly likely that walls were built, redesigned, removed and then rebuilt all over the temple complex as multiple rulers and architects provided their own input into the massive project.
Jamesjsheridan
2.5 / 5 (4) Nov 26, 2011
flashgordon - Jesus said "give unto caesar what is caesars" What he meant by this was instead of being enslaved to the romans we should return all of their gold to them and live in a community where we take care of each other. Your interpretation of this biblical passage is rather uninformed. The romans did coopt and distort the message of jesus in order preserve the flow of money to rome, but that has no reflection on the actual original message of jesus. You would probably be rather surprised to find out that many of jesus's issues that caused him to start preaching were the same issues that you have with modern religion. He was opposed to economic domination of the monetary system and the banks. We was opposed to the necessity of paying the church for forgiveness, blessing of food, sanctification of burial, marriage, etc. Jesus was crucified because the threatened the religios monopoly of the jewish rabbis and the political monopoly of the romans by free forgiveness
Jamesjsheridan
5 / 5 (2) Nov 26, 2011
frankherbert - What you say is basically true, but it dates from earlier than that. Many of the angels named in the bible (along with many of the stories) were named in sumerian / babylonian texts by the exact name as in the bible. There is also an archeological site in SE anatolia that shows how a factory switched from making pagan statues to christian statues virtually overnight. Adjustment and coopting cultural / religious trends is necessary for any large empire to stay in power over the long haul. The tudors show illustrates this fairly well. I also recommend you read up on the development of manorialism, and as a fictional example the hyperion series by Dan Simmons.
flashgordon
1 / 5 (2) Nov 26, 2011
Hello JamesJSheridan,

I'd like to see your reference to teh Summerian/Babylonian angel texts!
Pirouette
1 / 5 (4) Nov 26, 2011
flash. . . .the Sumerians left glyphs showing images of winged men. There are some researchers who believe that the Elohim of the Bible are the same as these men with wings that Sumerians worshipped as gods. That also may be a basis for the angels that are told about in the "Book of Enoch". The Old Testament doesn't say much about these angels in Genesis. . .only to say that that these "fallen angels" found the daughters of men beautiful and decided to mate with the women. There's not much more about them in the O.T., but the Book of Enoch elaborates further on that story. So, there is probably a good connection between Genesis and Book of Enoch regarding the fallen angels. I believe the Hebrews copied the earlier Sumerian texts into the texts of the jewish religion. I also believe that the Elohim (angels) were extraterrestrials who came to Earth and mated with women, then were punished for doing so by their leaders. We are descendants of that union.
Pirouette
3 / 5 (4) Nov 26, 2011
It has nothing to do with Scientology, which is a made-up and false religion by a writer of science fiction who decided to start his own religion. . . .L Ron Hubbard has duped an awful lot of people into joining his nonsense and money grubbing ideology.
flashgordon
2.3 / 5 (3) Nov 27, 2011
Sorry Pirouette, the aliens thing is turning me off; but, then you turn around and say L Ron Hubbard is a conman(which I agree). Well, I don't even know what to say at this point!
Pirouette
1 / 5 (4) Nov 27, 2011
flash says:

q]Sorry Pirouette, the aliens thing is turning me off; but, then you turn around and say L Ron Hubbard is a conman(which I agree). Well, I don't even know what to say at this point!

I understand any trepidation you may have as to my claims of life forms on Mars. It's normal to think that way and most people do. I won't bring up the subject here anymore if it upsets you so much. But first, think of it this way: how many different species, subspecies and genuses are in, on and under the Earth and in the seas. Then think of why it would be so hard for people to relate to species, subspecies and varied genuses on the next planet over that is the most similar to ours. After that, think about all the Earth-like planets in other star systems where scientists and lay people are interested in finding life forms, BUT not on Mars, except for possible microbes. Does it make sense to you?
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (4) Nov 27, 2011
But making the conclusion they made is like saying that an empty cola can found near the Giza pyramid means that it was built in 21st century.

They didn't find the coins near, but underneath the wall in an older structure (i.e. the wall was erected after the coins had been coined and left there).

Pirouette
1 / 5 (2) Nov 27, 2011
ooops. . . .sorry. . .lol. . . .I forgot that I had been discussing the Elohim (angels), Book of Enoch, Sumerian glyphs and the bible's OT. . . .not Mars.
FrankHerbert
1 / 5 (53) Nov 27, 2011
Sorry Pirouette, the aliens thing is turning me off; but, then you turn around and say L Ron Hubbard is a conman(which I agree). Well, I don't even know what to say at this point!


Pirouette has a special knack of invoking this feeling in rational people.
Ethelred
4 / 5 (4) Nov 28, 2011
Elohim (angels)
Elohim, a plural form of the word, is usually what is translated as God as in Genesis 1. In Genesis 2 Yehovah Elohim is translated as the Lord God. Which is kinda weird if you think about it with the concept of monotheism in mind. Still either way Elohim is not angels.

But don't worry Pirouette, its all the writings of fallible men.

Ethelred

FrankHerbert
0.9 / 5 (53) Nov 28, 2011
It actually makes perfect sense as Yahweh was only one Semitic god of the period. This is reflected in the inconsistent terminology used to refer to him. It just happened that when his followers decided that they would worship him at the exclusion of the others, they didn't go back and scrub out all the plural nouns. It was an oversight.

http://en.wikiped...deity%29
Ethelred
2.6 / 5 (5) Nov 28, 2011
if Jesus was the real messiah of the Jews,
The Messiah was supposed to have a worldly kingdom, that is a clear prophecy, thus Jesus was not the Messiah. Of course if there should ever be a Second Coming THEN AND ONLY THEN would he qualify as the Messiah. The catch is that would be a bit late to drive out the Romans as the Muslims did that some time ago.

Does that make Mohamed the Messiah? He or his followers drove out the Eastern Roman Empire and he did have a worldly kingdom.

Hey I don't make the religious rules. I am just reporting what was actually written vs what actually happened.

Ethelred
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (1) Nov 28, 2011
Of course if there should ever be a Second Coming THEN AND ONLY THEN would he qualify as the Messiah.

Why? He still wouldn't have a worldly kingdom (and I highly doubt the Vatican would let any preacher just take over)
DontBeBlind
2.6 / 5 (5) Nov 28, 2011
We clearly have immature conditioned scientists. I will continue to destroy this messianic dictator religion.

Good luck with that!!!!!!!!! The only people your convincing are the atheist on this site who already kick babies and burn their own souls with their silly lusts. Your not gonna make any progress with your efforts. You make a few quotes that have nothing to do with what you say it does. Not to mention you forgot the whole O.T of the bible that talks about Jesus coming in the flesh. But heck don't let that stop you from spewing out your hatred for Jesus. It helps spread the gospel.
DontBeBlind
1.8 / 5 (5) Nov 28, 2011
if Jesus was the real messiah of the Jews,
The Messiah was supposed to have a worldly kingdom, that is a clear prophecy, thus Jesus was not the Messiah. Of course if there should ever be a Second Coming THEN AND ONLY THEN would he qualify as the Messiah. The catch is that would be a bit late to drive out the Romans as the Muslims did that some time ago.

Does that make Mohamed the Messiah? He or his followers drove out the Eastern Roman Empire and he did have a worldly kingdom.

Hey I don't make the religious rules. I am just reporting what was actually written vs what actually happened.

Ethelred


He is the 'Messiah" to not only the Jews but the whole world if they would only accept his sacrifice.
His world Kingdom is yet to come where he will rule over the whole earth with an iron rod for 1k years.
flashgordon
1 / 5 (3) Nov 28, 2011
It's not hate for jesus as much as hate for messianic end of the world religion(believe in me or go to hell - essentially Jesus Christ message) and dictatorship. And not to mention psuedoscience at best.

And I do know about the links with the Old testament as already hinted at; but, you seem to aloof to note. As Josephus said to Emperor Titus; the Jews believe there will be a messiah to come sweep away all their enemies(basically everybody else in the world; people don't understand that; the Jews were intolerant of everybody elses beliefs; that's why they invented the single god concept; this is also why they were so hated throughout the ancient world) and make heaven on earth for themselves; because they were jealous of the rest of the worlds wealth and knowledge. What do you think the flood story is about? Think people - think!

Josephus pointed out numbers 24 I do beleive; but, I should look it up real quick.
flashgordon
1 / 5 (3) Nov 28, 2011
I should add my growing concern of dinkwad scientists who are conditioned to hate anybody who points these things out. Scientists should be factual and logical - not social incrowders - hence nazies.
danfolkes
3 / 5 (2) Nov 28, 2011
There can be a whole classes about the subjects discussed.

Please argue about things not related to the article in PMs.
Ethelred
3.7 / 5 (3) Nov 28, 2011
He still wouldn't have a worldly kingdom (and I highly doubt the Vatican would let any preacher just take over)
My assumption there was that the Second Coming would be a pretty clear indication of really serious divinity or at least the backing of divinity. The Second Coming is not a rebirth of a mere Reverend on TV. And the Vatican doesn't control all Christians and even within Catholicism his control is limited to the Church hierarchy where it is still a bit more iffy than you might imagine.

The present Pope has about as much charisma as a top rock on a pile of rocks. He could start mass excommunication and people would just ignore it. And that was the case even before the buggery fiascoes.

Ethelred
Ethelred
3.7 / 5 (3) Nov 28, 2011
He is the 'Messiah" to not only the Jews but the whole world if they would only accept his sacrifice.
I am pretty sure there is a bit more to being the Messiah according to the Bible. He simply didn't fit the official qualifications.

His world Kingdom is yet to come where he will rule over the whole earth with an iron rod for 1k years.
That was supposed to happen a long time ago. It didn't. The Bible was the was the writings of fallible men. The best thing I can say for it is that I think most of them honestly believed it as opposed to Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard and Muhammad, who I am pretty sure was also an intentional fraud but I could be wrong on him.

Ethelred
Ethelred
3.7 / 5 (3) Nov 28, 2011
Please argue about things not related to the article in PMs.
Please get real. And that wasn't related to the article. Pretty crappy first post.

If YOU weren't interested enough to discuss the article, why do you think anyone else should do it.

Ethelred