Coins show Herod built only part of Second Temple walls
November 23, 2011 by Hazel Ward
Two ancient bronze coins which according to Israel Antiquities Authority (IAA) archaeologists were struck by the Roman procurator of Judea, Valerius Gratus, in the year 17/18 CE and recently were revealed in excavations beneath the Western Wall in Jerusalem's Old City are exposed to the media.
Israeli archaeologists have uncovered ancient coins near the Western Wall in Jerusalem's Old City which challenge the assumption that all of the walls of the Second Temple were built by King Herod.
The coins, which date back to around 15 AD, were found inside a Jewish ritual bath located at the foot of the western wall of the Second Temple, which was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD, archaeologists said on Wednesday.
Until now, archaeologists and scholars have largely accepted that the Roman king was responsible for construction of both the Temple and its walls in a project completed by the time of his death in around 4 BC.
During the dig, archaeologists found the ritual bath, or mikveh, had been filled in to make way for construction of the wall, part of which was built directly on top of it, with the coins found in the half which was not covered by the foundation stones.
"Until today, accepted wisdom said that all the walls were built by Herod," said Eli Shakoun, an archaeologist from the Israel Antiquities Authority who led the dig with Professor Ronny Reich of Haifa University.
Archaeologist Eli Shukron of the Israel Antiquities Authority kneels inside a ritual bath exposed beneath the Western Wall in Jerusalem's Old City. Israeli archaeologists have uncovered ancient coins near the Western Wall in Jerusalem's Old City which challenge the assumption that all of the walls of the Second Temple were built by King Herod.
"When we found these coins which were dated about 20 years after Herod's death, we understood that it couldn't have been him who built this part of the wall," he explained.The find also showed that construction of the walls had taken at least 40 years, which is longer than previously thought, Reich told reporters.
"Herod started building in the 18th year of his reign, which was around 22 BC, and here we have coins (underneath the wall) which date back to at least 15 AD, which show it was at least 40 years," he said.
The mikveh and the coins were discovered in the last two months during excavations of a 2,000-year-old drainage channel which stretches from a site near the Western Wall and the adjacent Al-Aqsa mosque compound and runs under the Old City walls to end in the Arab neighbourhood of Silwan.
Excavation of the 600-metre tunnel has caused controversy as the site is very close to the mosque compound, which houses the third holiest site in Islam and is known to Muslims as Haram al-Sharif or the Noble Sanctuary.
The mikveh was uncovered dozens of metres from the Western Wall, one of the holiest sites in Judaism, revered as the last remaining remnant of the Second Temple.
Israeli excavations and construction work in the Old City often stir controversy, particularly around the Western Wall which backs onto the Al-Aqsa mosque compound, one of the most contentious sites in the Middle East conflict.
Israel occupied and later annexed east Jerusalem, which includes the Old City, during the 1967 Six-day War and considers it to be its "eternal and indivisible capital."
But the Palestinians oppose any extension of Israeli control over the city's eastern sector which they want as the capital of their future promised state.
(c) 2011 AFP
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Nov 23, 2011
Rank: 3 / 5 (10)
A man who walks on water, heals the sick, causes a massive ruckus by overturning the markets and gets himself killed because of it leaves 1) no artwork(not even coins!) 2) no historical mention till a hundred years later.
As the New Testament says over and over again, Jesus Christ was derived from scripture! Says alot about people when they miss that one! Yea, there was no Jesus Christ! Jesus Christ was just a roman empire effort to pacify the messianic Jews!(hence why Jesus Christ says pay unto Caesar what is his! Pay your taxes Jews!)
Nov 23, 2011
Rank: 3 / 5 (8)
Nov 23, 2011
Rank: 2.7 / 5 (7)
Nov 23, 2011
Rank: 1.7 / 5 (6)
flashgordon is flailing at a similar issue. If Jesus did not exist, who was the genius who wrote the Quelle? (The supposed--but never found source of Jesus' words quoted in Matthew and Luke.) Or to put it more directly, who wrote (or gave) the Sermon on the Mount? It is hard to imagine any such person remaining unnamed while his speeches and parables survived.
Nov 23, 2011
Rank: 2.3 / 5 (6)
I gave plenty of clues,
16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
16:27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen
Jesus Christ was kept a secret of the mysterys; if you know anything about the ancient world it should be the Greek mystery schools. That is sungod mysteries.
Nov 23, 2011
Rank: 2.6 / 5 (5)
and here we go, salute . . . herodians! 16:11 Salute Herodion my kinsman. Greet them that be of the household of Narcissus, which are in the Lord.
Salute Hermes a Greek god! in the same chapter! That's right, there's more than one god; but Jehovah is a jealous god!
Nov 23, 2011
Rank: 3 / 5 (4)
Nov 23, 2011
Rank: 3.7 / 5 (6)
It's the old question of: "what can you do for me and my situation?". After all, the great messiah of the Jews was supposed to "save" them and make them all wealthy. The "chosen people" and all that.
Nov 23, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (3)
http://en.wikiped..._Clement
Yes, that's right, Flavius Clement was brother of Roman emperor Vespasian who sacked the Second temple! Flavius is an official roman emperor title. Amongst those who took on the Flavius title was Flavius Josephus! A Jew who decided all the messianic jews were crazy and making their own blues. He decided it was much better to be a Roman than a Jew! He annointed Emperor Titus as "The Annointed One"!
And oh, look at this! Flavia Domitella who made the largest christian catacombs!
http://en.wikiped..._(saint)
Nov 23, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (3)
"Vespasian sestertius, struck in 71 to celebrate the victory in the Jewish Rebellion. The legend on the reverse says: IVDEA CAPTA, "Judaea conquered"."
Nov 23, 2011
Rank: 3.7 / 5 (3)
It never materialized and the Jews are still waiting for their messiah. It still hasn't occurred to them that, if Jesus was the real messiah of the Jews, they missed out big time since it was the Jews that turned him in to the Romans, according to the N.T.
Nov 23, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
Nov 23, 2011
Rank: 2 / 5 (4)
http://en.wikiped...hroditos
says these two Epaphroditus's are not the same! It doesn't give a reason; i'm thinking whoever wrote the wiki just doesn't like the connection of Epaphroditus, Josephus and Paul in the New Testament! Domitilla is also mentioned in the New Testament(I'd have to go look up my notes!)
Nov 23, 2011
Rank: 2.3 / 5 (3)
http://en.wikiped...Domitian
"Assassination
According to Suetonius, Domitian worshipped Minerva as his protector goddess with superstitious veneration. In a dream, she is said to have abandoned the emperor prior to the assassination.
Domitian was murdered on 18 September 96, in a palace conspiracy organized by court officials.[130] A highly detailed account of the plot and the assassination is provided by Suetonius, who alleges that Domitian's chamberlain Parthenius was the chief instigator behind the conspiracy, citing the recent execution of Domitian's secretary Epaphroditus as the primary motive.[131][132] The murder itself was carried out by a freedman of Parthenius named Maximus, and a steward of Domitian's niece Flavia Domitilla, named Stephanus."
Nov 23, 2011
Rank: 1.8 / 5 (5)
Once again, people make artwork of major events and people. If there was a Jesus Christ, the mediterraenean would have been plastered with Jesus Christ all over the place. Instead, you see nothing . . . not even in the christian catacombs.
Nov 23, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (3)
Nov 23, 2011
Rank: 3.7 / 5 (7)
Wow...I've not seen such a diatribe of argument from silence and of a lack of historical investigation like yours in many years.
1. You will not find Roman coins of the first century with any Jewish leader on them, why would Jesus, an itinerate preacher whose ministry lasted for 3 years, make Him coin-worthy? He was not a political leader.
2. The fact that we do have several non-Christian sources who mention Jesus within a few decades of His life is so historically astounding as to put this issue beyond question, except for hardcore skeptics who "require" illogical levels of "proof".
3. Paul addressed Herodias (a common first name in the mid-first-century Roman empire) not the false god Hermes.
4. Your claim about artwork is demonstrably false. The Jewish temple, beautified by Herod, was considered almost as one of the ancient wonders of the ancient world, yet almost no artwork of it has survived. A lack of artwork does not imply non-existence.
Nov 23, 2011
Rank: 4.4 / 5 (7)
The Dead Sea Scrolls were primarily written in the 2nd and 1st century BCE (before the birth of Christ...BCE-Before Common Era). So we would not expect His name to be found there (since He hadn't been born yet), but there are many prophecies there of the coming Messiah who would be born, suffer, die, and rise again.
And, concerning the Essenic material that was written during the first century (of the Qumran-DSS materials) these were not Christians, but strict Jews, therefore, since they wrote very little historical information (most of the scrolls are copies of old testament scripture or rules for daily living and purification) we would not expect to find historical accounts of Jesus.
Please study about the source/date/content of the DSS materials before posting about them.
Your argument is like reading the American Constitution and then saying that the American Revolution never happened, because the Constitution doesn't talk about it. Illogical.
Nov 24, 2011
Rank: 1.8 / 5 (4)
http://www.google...=agrippa coin&hl=en&prmd=imvnsfd&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=7SvOTt_OBq2-2AXsqsyrDw&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CBkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=657
As for the rest of your criticisms . . . dead sea Scrolls didn't mention Jesus Christ as you say, and temple art no longer existent(the temple no longer exists from back then), or Paul was talking about Herodias instead of Hermes . . . well, your clearly not worth argueing with! You just don't get it. And just the couple of things I've mentioned here prove it.
Nov 24, 2011
Rank: 2.6 / 5 (5)
I have no idea why you bother posting so much on topics you clearly have no understanding about...
Nov 24, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (2)
But back to the article itself:
I'm afraid I don't fully understand the logic of their conclusion. How can one estimate the period in which an artifact was created by existence of random objects of more recent origin found in its vicinity?
I mean, it would make a bit more sense if, say, it were the other way around, and the coins were much older than the supposed period of the temple's creation, and not in use during that time anymore. THEN one could say that the temple was actually built earlier.
But making the conclusion they made is like saying that an empty cola can found near the Giza pyramid means that it was built in 21st century.
What if the temple was built by Herod, as supposed earlier, and some 40 years later someone dropped some coins in the mikveh by accident.
Plausible? I think so.
Nov 24, 2011
Rank: 2 / 5 (4)
There were articles on two thousand year old nails, angels, and Leonardo Da Vinci's last supper painting. These are really quite psuedo-science.
Nov 24, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (53)
The empire had not officially adopted Christianity yet, though it was spreading and the emperor was actively flirting with adopting the religion. Therefore, it is reasonable to state that the winged creature on the reverse of the coin is not an angel, but Victory standing on the prow of a ship, a common Roman theme.
I make the distinction because the coin itself is evidence that the ubiquitous angels of Christianity are directly plagiarized from Roman state religion. One cannot make the case that the image is that of an angel, one cannot deny the striking resemblance of this creature with an angel, and one cannot claim angels came first (as there is historical evidence).
The common Christian image of an angel is actually a pagan deity.
Nov 25, 2011
Rank: 2.6 / 5 (5)
Nov 26, 2011
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Nov 26, 2011
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Nov 26, 2011
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Nov 26, 2011
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Nov 26, 2011
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I'd like to see your reference to teh Summerian/Babylonian angel texts!
Nov 26, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (3)
Nov 26, 2011
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Nov 27, 2011
Rank: 3 / 5 (2)
Nov 27, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (2)
q]Sorry Pirouette, the aliens thing is turning me off; but, then you turn around and say L Ron Hubbard is a conman(which I agree). Well, I don't even know what to say at this point!
I understand any trepidation you may have as to my claims of life forms on Mars. It's normal to think that way and most people do. I won't bring up the subject here anymore if it upsets you so much. But first, think of it this way: how many different species, subspecies and genuses are in, on and under the Earth and in the seas. Then think of why it would be so hard for people to relate to species, subspecies and varied genuses on the next planet over that is the most similar to ours. After that, think about all the Earth-like planets in other star systems where scientists and lay people are interested in finding life forms, BUT not on Mars, except for possible microbes. Does it make sense to you?
Nov 27, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (2)
They didn't find the coins near, but underneath the wall in an older structure (i.e. the wall was erected after the coins had been coined and left there).
Nov 27, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
Nov 27, 2011
Rank: 0.8 / 5 (51)
Pirouette has a special knack of invoking this feeling in rational people.
Nov 28, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (1)
But don't worry Pirouette, its all the writings of fallible men.
Ethelred
Nov 28, 2011
Rank: 0.7 / 5 (51)
http://en.wikiped...deity%29
Nov 28, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (2)
Does that make Mohamed the Messiah? He or his followers drove out the Eastern Roman Empire and he did have a worldly kingdom.
Hey I don't make the religious rules. I am just reporting what was actually written vs what actually happened.
Ethelred
Nov 28, 2011
Rank: not rated yet
Why? He still wouldn't have a worldly kingdom (and I highly doubt the Vatican would let any preacher just take over)
Nov 28, 2011
Rank: 3 / 5 (2)
Good luck with that!!!!!!!!! The only people your convincing are the atheist on this site who already kick babies and burn their own souls with their silly lusts. Your not gonna make any progress with your efforts. You make a few quotes that have nothing to do with what you say it does. Not to mention you forgot the whole O.T of the bible that talks about Jesus coming in the flesh. But heck don't let that stop you from spewing out your hatred for Jesus. It helps spread the gospel.
Nov 28, 2011
Rank: 2.3 / 5 (3)
He is the 'Messiah" to not only the Jews but the whole world if they would only accept his sacrifice.
His world Kingdom is yet to come where he will rule over the whole earth with an iron rod for 1k years.
Nov 28, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (2)
And I do know about the links with the Old testament as already hinted at; but, you seem to aloof to note. As Josephus said to Emperor Titus; the Jews believe there will be a messiah to come sweep away all their enemies(basically everybody else in the world; people don't understand that; the Jews were intolerant of everybody elses beliefs; that's why they invented the single god concept; this is also why they were so hated throughout the ancient world) and make heaven on earth for themselves; because they were jealous of the rest of the worlds wealth and knowledge. What do you think the flood story is about? Think people - think!
Josephus pointed out numbers 24 I do beleive; but, I should look it up real quick.
Nov 28, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (2)
Nov 28, 2011
Rank: not rated yet
Please argue about things not related to the article in PMs.
Nov 28, 2011
Rank: not rated yet
The present Pope has about as much charisma as a top rock on a pile of rocks. He could start mass excommunication and people would just ignore it. And that was the case even before the buggery fiascoes.
Ethelred
Nov 28, 2011
Rank: not rated yet
That was supposed to happen a long time ago. It didn't. The Bible was the was the writings of fallible men. The best thing I can say for it is that I think most of them honestly believed it as opposed to Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard and Muhammad, who I am pretty sure was also an intentional fraud but I could be wrong on him.
Ethelred
Nov 28, 2011
Rank: not rated yet
If YOU weren't interested enough to discuss the article, why do you think anyone else should do it.
Ethelred