In climate talks West would redefine rich and poor

Nov 25, 2011 By ARTHUR MAX , Associated Press

(AP) -- As delegates gather in South Africa to plot the next big push against climate change, Western governments are saying it's time to move beyond traditional distinctions between industrial and developing countries and get China and other growing economies to accept legally binding curbs on greenhouse gases.

It will be a central theme for the 25,000 national officials, lobbyists, scientists and advocates gathering under U.N. auspices in the of Durban on Nov. 28. Their two weeks of negotiations will end with a meeting of government ministers from more than 100 countries.

The immediate focus is the , the 1997 agreement requiring 37 industrialized countries to slash carbon emissions to 5 percent below 1990 levels by 2012. Each country has a binding target and faces penalties for falling short. The U.S., then and now the world's largest polluter per capita, refused to join Kyoto because it imposed no obligations on countries like China, which has since surpassed the U.S. in overall emissions.

Now, with the Kyoto pact's expiry date looming, poor countries want the signatories to accept further reductions in a second commitment period up to at least 2017.

"The Kyoto Protocol is a cornerstone of the climate change regime," and a second commitment period "is the central priority for Durban," says Jorge Arguello of Argentina, the chairman of the developing countries' negotiating bloc known as G77 plus China.

But with growing consensus, wealthy countries are saying they cannot give further pledges unless all others - or at least the major developing countries - accept commitments themselves that are equally binding.

The European Union is bringing a proposal to Durban calling for a timetable for everyone to make these commitments by 2015.

Separately, Norway and Australia set out a six-page proposal for all governments to adopt a phased process of scaling down emissions.

Japan, Canada and Russia, three key countries in the Kyoto deal, announced last year they will not sign up to a second commitment period. Russia has submitted a proposal calling for a review and periodic amendments to the criteria for being judged rich or poor under Kyoto's legal prescriptions.

"We need to discuss whether we can continue to divide the world in the traditional thinking of the North and the South, where the North has to commit to a binding form whereas the South will only have to commit in a voluntary form," Connie Hedegaard, the European commissioner on climate policies, told reporters this month.

It's an old debate that has been intensifying with the rapid growth of economies like those of China, India and some in Latin America and the wealth as well as high carbon emissions they generate.

The division of the globe into two unequal parts was embedded in the first climate convention adopted in 1992. At that time China was struggling to liberalize its economy, India was just opening its borders to international commerce, South Africa was breaking out of the apartheid era, and Brazil - the host of the Earth Summit where the convention was adopted - was an economic shambles with inflation topping 1,100 percent that year.

Everyone agrees that the few wealthy nations have the primary responsibility for reducing , since it was their industries that pumped carbon dioxide into the atmosphere for 200 years. Climate scientists say the accumulation of CO2 traps the Earth's heat, is already changing some weather patterns and agricultural conditions, and is heightening risks of devastating sea level rise.

The industrial countries - the U.S. chief among them - have long questioned whether those definitions of rich and poor, drawn up 20 years ago, should still apply. That was one reason why the U.S. backed out of the Kyoto Protocol.

The European Union also dismisses the poor countries' argument that, "you created the problem, now you fix it."

The EU is responsible for just 11 percent of global emissions, says the EU's Hedegaard, and it can't solve global warming without the help of those emitting the other 89 percent.

Despite their swelling national bank accounts, China, India, South Africa and others say they are still battling poverty and that tens of millions of their people lack electricity or running water.

To accept legal equality with wealthy countries would jeopardize their status as developing societies - even though few countries are doing more than China to rein in the growth of their emissions.

It is a world leader in producing wind and solar energy and has closed thousands of outdated and heavily polluting power plants, replacing many with cleaner-burning coal plants. Its fuel efficiency standard already surpasses the 35 miles per gallon (14.7 kilometers per liter) for passenger cars that the U.S. government hopes to reach in 2016.

And so the stalemate continues leading up to Durban.

"The North-South divide over historical responsibility still has more weight than the forward-looking approach of respective capabilities," says Christiana Figueres, executive secretary of the U.N. Framework Convention on .

Jennifer Morgan, climate analyst at the Washington, D.C.-based World Resources Institute, says serious discussions are going on behind the scenes over the European timetable plan, although it was not clear this week if an agreement was possible in Durban.

Other experts agree that China privately is showing more flexibility than in public.

If no deal can be concluded, Figueres said last month, a patchwork of interim arrangements may be needed to keep negotiations alive.

"What arrangements? We don't know yet. According to what rules? We don't know yet. Interim for how long? We don't know yet," she said.

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omatumr
1.6 / 5 (7) Nov 25, 2011
Objectives of Global Climate Scare:

1. Unite Nations
2. Avoid Nuclear Annihilation
3. Equalize Standard of Living Worldwide

See: "Deep roots of the global climate scandal (1971-2011)"
http://dl.dropbox...oots.pdf

With kind regards,
Oliver K. Manuel
Former NASA principal
Investigator for Apollo
http://myprofile....anuelo09
rubberman
3.7 / 5 (3) Nov 25, 2011
OK Ollie....your link doesn't work, but if those objectives you have stated above are indeed what the "hidden puppet masters of climate scare" hope to achieve, what is your problem with these objectives? It seems if these goals were ever reached, alot of the reigns holding the human race back would disappear......
omatumr
1 / 5 (6) Nov 25, 2011
OK Ollie....your link doesn't work,


It works.

if those objectives are indeed what the "hidden puppet masters of climate scare" hope to achieve, what is your problem with these objectives?


Noble goals cannot be achieved by deception:

Concluding paragraphs: I regret the need to confront the AGW dogma with experimental observations that were ignored for an imagined greater good: To avoid the threat of mutual nuclear annihilation [7]. However as former President Eisenhower warned [5] and the life of Madam Curie [56] showed, government deception and personal freedoms are incompatible.

Now we must work together to help leaders of nations and scientific organizations accept their total powerlessness over the forces that power our stormy Sun and sustain our lives, restore integrity to science, promote world peace, avoid a return to divisive nationalism, and restore the personal freedoms guaranteed to citizens by their respective national governments, . . .
omatumr
1 / 5 (6) Nov 25, 2011
Real reasons for Earth's continuously changing climate:

1. These slides of a recent talk by solar physicist, Dr. Pal Brekke, author of a forthcoming book on - "Our Explosive Sun", in press (2011):

http://curry.eas....taFe.pdf

2. The National Geographic article by Curt Suplee, "Living with the Stormy Star" (2004):

http://ngm.nation...dex.html

3. "Earth's Heat Source - The Sun", Energy and Environment 20, 131-144 (2009)

http://arxiv.org/pdf/0905.0704

4. "Super-fluidity in the solar interior: Implications for solar eruptions and climate", Journal of Fusion Energy 21, 193-198 (2002)

http://arxiv.org/.../0501441

www.omatumr.com/a...dity.pdf

ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (6) Nov 25, 2011
Why is the meeting in RSA?
It is a long flight, burning much fuel, from the US, and most of the world, to RSA.
omatumr
1 / 5 (5) Nov 25, 2011
OK Ollie....your link doesn't work, . . .


If the pdf file doesn't open for you,

http://dl.dropbox...oots.pdf

Try the doc file:

http://dl.dropbox...oots.doc

Either way you will find that seeds of fear were planted in world leaders by the vaporization of Hiroshima on 6 Aug 1945

http://news.bbc.c...2189.stm

Later nourished by this message from USSR's Khrushchev to USA's President Kennedy on 24 Oct 1962:

www.ibiblio.org/e...jfk.html

"Global Climate Change" was adopted as a "common enemy" in ~1971 to:

1. Unite Nations
2. Avoid Nuclear Annihilation
3. Equalize Standard of Living Worldwide

SEE:

a) Another Ice Age, Time Magazine US (1974)

http://www.time.c...,00.html

b) Peter Gwynne, The Cooling World, Newsweek (1975)

http://www.denisd...orld.htm
freethinking
1.9 / 5 (8) Nov 25, 2011
Hey the more you know about climate scientists who support global warming, the less respect you have for them as scientists, and the more respect you have for them as raving leftists.

http://www.forbes...-debate/
Davecoolman
2 / 5 (8) Nov 25, 2011
As delegates/crooks /data manipulators, Eco Fanatic's, Al bore, Greens and movie stars gather in South Africa to plot the next big push against climate change, Western governments are saying it's time to move beyond traditional distinctions between industrial and developing countries and get China( not a hope in hell) and other growing economies to accept legally binding curbs on greenhouse gases. LOL!

The CAGW jet flying dreamers are smoking Dakar if they think this Conference is nothing else but a nice tropical holiday in a Beautiful beach City.
Nothing is going to happen apart from another big CO2 producing party - God help the poor old Crayfish (local Lobsters) these SOB greens will decimate them in their all you can eat face stuffing sessions - Oh The Horror
Howhot
5 / 5 (2) Nov 25, 2011
This make sense. Without support from China and India, I think it will be very hard to get a handle on Global warming from CO2 and coal energy pollution. It's no longer a local problem. The smoke stack in India could eventually damage your poor little oil soaked crayfish by global warming that is drying out those chemical stained mud fats!
Davecoolman
1.7 / 5 (6) Nov 25, 2011
With the global-warming jolly fest about to open in Durban, the CRU whistle-blower released a second tranche of Climategate emails just as tawdry and demeaning as the first.

Few outside the ranks of professional physicists consider they are able to adjudicate the science but most are capable of recognizing when an investigative procedure is flawed.

It is clear the IPCC assessment process has so many serious material defects as to put into grave doubt the soundness and reliability of any of its heavily promoted claims. Like so much of the UN, the IPCC is irredeemably corrupt and a new assessment body is needed made up scientists rather than green zealots, political placemen and celebrities.
omatumr
1 / 5 (6) Nov 25, 2011
With the global-warming jolly fest about to open in Durban, the CRU whistle-blower released a second tranche of Climategate emails just as tawdry and demeaning as the first.

Few outside the ranks of professional physicists consider they are able to adjudicate the science but most are capable of recognizing when an investigative procedure is flawed.


Since 1971 astronomy, astrophysics, climatology, cosmology, nuclear, particle and solar physics were all compromised in the campaign to show Earth's heat source is steady and cannot cause climate change.

That is the real tragedy for physics lurking in the "Deep roots of the global climate scandal (1971-2011)"

http://dl.dropbox...oots.pdf

This happened despite Eisenhower's warning ten years earlier that a "scientific-technological elite" might one day take over public policy:

http://mcadams.po.../ike.htm

www.youtube.com/w...ld5PR4ts

Climategate was a blessing in disguise!
bmerc
5 / 5 (1) Nov 26, 2011
Why is the meeting in RSA?
It is a long flight, burning much fuel, from the US, and most of the world, to RSA.


The nice beaches.
kochevnik
3.7 / 5 (3) Nov 26, 2011
While the West lead the short-term empire-building effort in unsustainable loansharking and resource theft, miring smaller nations in debt and unbearable poverty, Africa may well lead the effort in building a sustainable model for human coexistence with what's left of the planet with a vision for humanity's long term.

Americas own unsustainability will pummel the economy with economic shocks as the cost of unsustainable energy inevitably rises. This will reduce American's standard of living until they are reduced to sustenance living or decouple their money from energy as the petrodollar is eliminated. If Americans build sustainable energy then they will have an economy. Russia and China will ensure the destruction of the petrodollar.
hagger
1 / 5 (4) Nov 26, 2011
human produced C02 per year..6.5 gigatons..plant biomass Co2 per year..150 gigatons..between 800-1300 it was warmer than now..we did not die..june 1991 mt pinatubo erupted..in 2 years it released more Co2 than the activities of mankind in it's entire history..right up to tomorrow..Co2 means life...plants use..then they give of oxygen..no Co2 no plants no us..there are more papers and scientists against this than for it..but..it's not what the governments want..they want your taxes..scare you to death..you pays your taxes...global warming is a natural trend..read the facts written by people who are not paid by the government, use your common sense and the brains you were born with..Co2 is a product of temperature..why did we get global warming when there was no industry....because its a natural cycle...wake up..its a tax con...and was predicted 20 years ago...
jsdarkdestruction
3 / 5 (4) Nov 26, 2011
Oliver Manuel's recent efforts to plaster Physorg.com and other public news sites with his theories and personal URLs are a bit puzzling, as scientists have a variety of publications available to communicate directly to each other in. My best guess is that he is desperately trying to prop up his legacy in light of his arrest in his university office on 7 charges of rape and sodomy based on allegations by 4 of his own children. The charges have been reduced to one count of felony attempted sodomy, not necessarily because of his innocence, but because of the statute of limitations. One can only guess how the recent charges and decades of family strife have affected his ability to reason rationally and to remain objective while defending his unpopular theories.

http://www.homefa...uel.html

http://mominer.ms...hildren/
omatumr
1.2 / 5 (5) Nov 27, 2011
See: "What is Wrong With the UN's IPCC?"

By Professor Ross McKitrick

www.thegwpf.org/i...orms.pdf
Vendicar_Decarian
3 / 5 (2) Nov 27, 2011
"human produced C02 per year..6.5 gigatons..plant biomass Co2 per year..150 gigatons" - Foofie

Actually, plants produce ZERO net CO2. If they produced 150 gigatonnes of CO2 per year then since the last ice age, the atmospheric Co2 levels would have grown to 30%.

As for human releases of Carbon into the atmosphere, emission levels are now 9 gigatonnes per year which translates to about 33 gigatonnes of CO2.

So, in your first sentence you got two facts wrong, both in magnitude and meaning.

There is no point in continuing the debunk of the rest of idiocy you wrote.

Is this you?

http://www.youtub...=related
Vendicar_Decarian
3.7 / 5 (3) Nov 27, 2011
"Since 1971 astronomy, astrophysics, climatology, cosmology, nuclear, particle and solar physics were all compromised in the campaign to show Earth's heat source is steady and cannot cause climate change" - OmaTard

That is right. They are all out to get you Omatard.

Just as all of your children must be lying in their charges against you.

Are you sure that you aren't under the control of Lucifer?
bluehigh
1 / 5 (1) Nov 27, 2011
As for human releases of Carbon into the atmosphere, emission levels are now 9 gigatonnes per year which translates to about 33 gigatonnes of CO2
- Vendi

With respect cause I expect you to be correct but - reference please, ya scary heavily armed nutter.

Vendicar_Decarian
3.7 / 5 (3) Nov 27, 2011