Are Nobels out of step with science?
October 5, 2011 by Marlowe Hood
This year's crop of Nobel prizes has sharpened a sometimes bitter debate as to whether science's top awards should each be limited to just three individuals in an era of collaborative research.
These days eureka moments in medicine, physics and chemistry are rare compared with a century ago, when giants such as Albert Einstein and Pierre and Marie Curie strode the scientific stage.
Instead, breakthroughs commonly come from collective labour involving dozens, sometimes hundreds, of minds working across multiple sub-disciplines in lavishly funded organisations.
"It is a trend in modern science. We increasingly see huge collaborations," notably in astronomy and genomics, said Roger Highfield, editor of the weekly British magazine New Scientist.
"You do wonder if it is entirely fair to single out three individuals."
The 2011 physics prize, he noted, went to three astronomers involved in two big teams who discovered that the expansion of the Universe was accelerating, not slowing as thought.
"This is one of the increasingly frequent instances when the Nobel Committee is damagingly constrained by its tradition that a prize can't be shared between more than three individuals," said Martin Rees, Britain's Astronomer Royal and former head of its academy of sciences, the Royal Society.
"It would have been fairer -- and would send a less distorted message about how this kind of science is actually done -- if the award had been made collectively to all members of the two groups."
Roger Davies, a professor of astrophysics at the University of Oxford, noted that the two teams of astrophysicists included "specialists in observational techniques, instrumentation, data analysis and theory -- the result requires all of these skills.
"In such large collaborations the team leaders are usually those who conceived and directed the investigation, but to achieve the result usually requires each team member to make an imaginative, creative contribution."
The rumble flared into open protest in French circles in 2008 when Jean-Claude Chermann, who played a key role in the discovery of the AIDS virus, had to watch two former colleagues collect the Nobel for medicine.
Jules Hoffmann, who shares this year's medicine Nobel with two other researchers from another laboratory for work on the immune system, would not comment on the limit rule but noted "science has become a much more collaborative process, everyone agrees on that."
"I consider this prize, number one, as a prize for innate immunity. Number two, it's for the team that spearheaded the efforts," he told AFP by phone.
Not all scientists agree the Nobel system needs revision.
"You can't really give a prize to a team of 10 people," said French physicist Albert Fert, who won the Nobel in 2007.
"It dilutes the interest of the prize. These are the rules of the game."
In an apparent exception to the trend toward collaboration, the Nobel for chemistry went on Wednesday to a single scientist, Daniel Shechtman of Israel, for discovering so-called quasi-crystals.
But even this award was contested.
"For us, in the chemistry community, the key publication (announcing the discovery) was signed by three major figures," Luc Barbier, co-head of a research unit in the IRAMIS physics and chemistry institute near Paris.
"It seems evident to us that (Denis) Gratias and (John) Cahn should also have been recognized," he told AFP by phone.
The number limitation was imposed in the late 1960s, in part because the number of recipients had begun to multiply.
Even with the new restriction in place, prizewinners in all three categories doubled from the first half of the 20th century to the second half.
In the last decade, there were nearly half as many as during the period 1900 to 1950.
"If something is discovered at CERN and there are 3,000 people in the collaboration, what are we going to do then," said Lars Bergstrom, Secretary of the Nobel Committee for Physics, referring to the giant test-bed for particle physics in Switzerland.
"We are not there yet, but are very much aware of the problem. We will see what can be done."
Another grouse that is commonly heard about the Nobel science awards is that the categories were set down at a time when there were relatively few scientific disciplines, divided by clear-cut lines.
Newer disciplines, or those that cut across categories, such as biotechnology, get left out, say critics.
(c) 2011 AFP
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Oct 05, 2011
Rank: not rated yet
No doubt that a great many Nobels have been awarded to those who have been directing the science which is often performed by a team of 'technicians'.
Of course, that's not to say that selecting individual reward or award should be done disproportionately to their contribution.
Oct 05, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (1)
Oct 05, 2011
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Oct 05, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (4)
Oct 05, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
Nobody does.
Oct 05, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (2)
In addition, the practical importance of the finding - not its importance for closed scientific community should be judged. Maybe the description of photoelectric effect is important for some theorists - but Einstein didn't found neither invented this effect, so he shouldn't get the Nobel prize for it. If we would apply the utilitarian criterion consequentially, we would see, the number of Nobel prize adepts is way not so high, as it's generally believed.
Oct 05, 2011
Rank: not rated yet
If that's the case, then isn't it also true that most of the people in a collaboration are doing pretty average work, regardless of the impressiveness of the discovery? I mean, what if one of my colleagues made a big discovery? That wouldn't stop him from being a mediocre scientist.
So why do people expect the number of recipients to rise, just because more people are involved in solving a problem?
Oct 05, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
lol Whatever Marlowe. Yes.
People with personal contact to him say Grisi.
Follow his example.
Perleman.
Overshadows all. Forsaken. The Fields: a token less than a gesture of insincerity. The Nobel even less so.
Oct 05, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (2)
Oct 05, 2011
Rank: 3.7 / 5 (3)
You must be mentally impaired
Oct 06, 2011
Rank: 4.2 / 5 (5)
The Nobels aren't a lottery. It doesn't matter how many researchers there are, it's about the science that is produced and that is exceptional enough to get the award. It is right that the team leaders who initiated and directed the research be recognized, rather than the multiplicity of technicians and other helpers.
Oct 06, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (3)
He is selling chips that are based on his theories. Or trying to anyway. I have yet to see one bit of evidence as to wether they work or not.
When he EVIDENCE he MAY have something that deserves a Noble. People get Nobels AFTER the evidence arrives.
Ethelred
Oct 06, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (2)
We apparently have no mechanism, how to enforce scientific community for verification of these findings - no matter, how significant they are. And vice-versa: we have no tools, how to prohibit the verification of silly ideas (like the Higgs boson or gravitational waves), despite they were refused with experiments sufficiently.
Oct 06, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
It's about politics, which can be documented easily with number of controversies and with reliability of Nobel prize award predictions. It it would be so clean business, we could predict the Nobelists in much reliable way.
http://en.wikiped...oversies
Oct 06, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (3)
He NEVER even tested the resistance for crying out loud. He just ASSUMED it was zero.
And Oliver published his crap in a peer reviewed journal as well.
How about ANY verification even by him?
Which has no verification for the simple reason that there hasn't been any results to verify beyond the remote possibility that a tiny amount of tritium might have been produced. By tiny I am talking about a decimal point with a large number of zeroes following, so many the number of zeroes was speculative.
Ethelred
Oct 06, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (4)
Look, 63% of Americans don't believe in evolution and they're refusing all evidence of it. Why some anonymous troll couldn't do the same at the case of J.F.Prins finding? You aren't first and last ignorant on the Earth.
For me the physics is an experimental science - and the only way, how to refuse the claims about diamond superconductivity, superluminal neutrinos or cold fusion is just another peer-reviewed experiment. If such attempt is missing for years, then the physicists aren't doing their jobs or we are lacking a mechanism, how to enforce them into it.
Because I'm perfectly sure, these experiments are so important, they should be validated despite of what anonymous trolls on the web are thinking about it.
Oct 06, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (1)
I would argue that the 'lavishly funded' part is pure propaganda. Certainly doesn't reflect my experience in the scientific community.
As soon as their 'findings' can be duplicated, verified and demonstrated they will get their prize. Until then: No Nobels for quacks.
Side note: Perelman didn't get a Nobel. He was offered the Fields Medal (there are no Nobel prizes for mathematics)
Photomultipliers and the invention of TV (early cameras were based on this effect) aren't 'important enough' for you?
Oct 06, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (3)
"Photomultipliers and the invention of TV (early cameras were based on this effect) aren't 'important enough' for you?"
________________________________________
LOL antialias. And where would *observational* astronomy be without photoelelectric photometers and CCDs? Still estimating the brightness of stars by eye!
Oct 06, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (2)
Whereas I am using the same handle I have used for over a decade. Online I AM Ethelred.
So that post was a troll to double your hypocrisy.
Nice link. Where is the actual test for superconductivity as opposed to multiple step assumptions of what Dr. Prins THINKS is going on. He keeps trying to calculate his way to conclusions supporting his claim instead actually measuring zero resistance.
I have read it before. Didn't see anything new this time. IF you think it is there how about you copy and paste just what you think is an actual test showing superconduction.
Lying is for life and death or a good joke. A troll that uses sockpuppets is neither life nor death and while a joke its a bad one.
Ethelred
Oct 06, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (2)
Room temperature Superconductivity: http://rtn.elektr...rins.pdf
Cold fusion: http://www.lenr-c...xces.pdf
Antigravity beams: http://arxiv.org/.../0209051
I can be a troll without problem, but I didn't published these findings. My person is solely irrelevant to it. Why mainstream physics asks money from my taxes for useless research, while it ignores the replication of these useful findings?
It's my legitimate question.
Oct 06, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (2)
All people, who already lost their homes during financial crisis should ask, why scientists are ignoring these findings. And they should make conclusion from this situation.
Oct 06, 2011
Rank: not rated yet
No objections.
The comparison is fair. The Fields is to math what Nobel is to physics.
Grisi wanted to share the Fields with Hamilton. We still don't know if the Fields committee had gone for this if Grisi was still willing to accept a shared prize.
Nobel winners don't do this for the sake of others, do they?
Oct 06, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
On the other hand, who ever declined the Fields price with exception of Perelman? After all, in my private opinion, he declined Nobel prize not because of his generosity, but because he affraid of St. Peterburg's mafia, where he believes he's known for that money.. He's paranoid freak, who afraid of everything.
http://english.pr...relman-0
Oct 06, 2011
Rank: not rated yet
To me that is a selfless act for the sake of another.
Perelman is the exception in every way.
Oct 08, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (1)
They are papers not findings until there is corroboration.
It doesn't. You complain, frequently, about the USA's taxes and decisions. You don't pay those taxes or vote for those people. You are not an American.
What replication? In response you posted UNREPLICATED questionable papers.
We understand it just fine. YOU don't understand that fantasy will not change reality. Unless you happen to be poor and write as successfully as JK Rowling.
So where is the evidence in Dr. Prins paper and where is the replication of it?
Ethelred
Oct 08, 2011
Rank: not rated yet
Oct 09, 2011
Rank: 3.7 / 5 (3)
The LHC is trivial in cost considering the number of nations contributing. AND it is NOT a waste of money. Unless you happen to be one of the many wackjobs here that think of Ann Rand as the Goddess of economics and politics. Which would mean that you would sufficiently deranged that you haven't a clue as to what is reasonable.
See Marjon and several others here for examples of how Ann Rand can cause brain damage in susceptible young men.
Ethelred
Oct 09, 2011
Rank: not rated yet
Oct 10, 2011
Rank: not rated yet
Marjon is a guy? I've always thought otherwise.
And I've been a modified Randite since 1977 or an ~2,4 on Pournelle's Political Axis.
http://www.baen.c...axes.jpg
Oct 10, 2011
Rank: 0.7 / 5 (48)
So what you're saying is you are a 'progressive'? At least according to marjon you would be. Marjon enforces The One more than The Funk itself.
Also: Note that Naziism and Fascism fall in the same quadrant as conservatism, while socialism, liberalism, and communism fall in another quadrant. :)
Oct 10, 2011
Rank: not rated yet
Already Einstein's relativity theory wasn't called Einstein's but just "relativity theory" for many years, and maybe correctly so ... as Poincaré, Lorentz and Joseph Larmor did all the math.
IF there had been given a Nobel Prize for "the relativity theories", then maybe a "team" to award would look something like this: James Clerk Maxwell, Joseph Larmor, Hendrik Lorentz, Henri Poincaré, Albert Einstein, Max Planck, Hermann Minkowski, Max von Laue, Arnold Sommerfeld, Max Born, Gustav Herglotz, Richard C. Tolman and why not Ole Rĝmer, the first one to push our minds into "something" that is "the fastest", by calculating the first numeric value of light-speed!
Before, a take where "the fastest" was infinite, was an alternative interpretation of our "world".
Oct 10, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (1)
And no I can't remember the name at the moment. JOHN is part of it.
That explains the occasional signs of political and economic brain damage. I am pretty sure Pournelle contracted the disease from Heinlein.
Rand Liberterianism, almost all versions of Liberterianism, have the same exact problem as Marxism does. They are both based on Aliens not humans. Randism in particular has this bizarre idea that somehow humans in government are inherently evil and humans in business will magically do the right thing and never conspire against others. This is clearly delusional.
Ethelred
Oct 10, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (1)
The only correct political economic theory is PRACTICALITY. No system is correct at all times. All depend on humans who are NOT only individuals nor only a species. We are both and neither depending on circumstances thus any system dependent on humans being purely a herd or purely individuals are doomed to failure.>>
Oct 10, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (1)
Ethelred
Oct 11, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (1)
In any case neither he nor anyone else got a Nobel for GR or SR. He got his Nobel for the Photoelectric effect.
Ethelred