GAIA - A billion eyes on the skies

Oct 21, 2011 by Tammy Plotner, Universe Today
Artist Concept of GAIA - Credit: ESA

It’s name is GAIA and it’s the perhaps the most ambitious project which has ever faced the European Space Agency. Scheduled to launch in 2013, this new breed of space telescope will stately progress to Lagrange Point 2, where it will spend the next five years. It’s mission? To create the largest and most precise three dimensional chart of our Galaxy by providing unprecedented positional and radial velocity measurements for about one billion stars in our Galaxy and throughout the Local Group.

While this number represents perhaps only 1% of the Milky Way’s stellar population, the GAIA mission will be “seeing” far more than just stars. Its astrophysical information data base will work hand-in-hand with on-board multi-color photometry… providing an information set which has the precision necessary to quantify the early formation, and subsequent dynamical, chemical and star formation evolution of the Milky Way Galaxy. As a result of its tracking capabilities, GAIA will also capture information on asteroids, comets, extra-solar planets and even low temperature, low mass objects. Its sensitive equipment will sweep over neighboring galaxies and reach out into space for a half million quasars. GAIA will push the boundaries of general relativity and cosmology to the limits.

What’s inside? GAIA will carry twin telescopes complete with two camera arrays incorporating charge coupled devices – each one measuring 45.0mm by 59.0mm and encompassing 1,966 pixels by 4,500 pixels. “The mounting and precise alignment of the 106 CCDs is a key step in the assembly of the flight model focal plane assembly,” said Philippe Gare, ESA’s GAIA Payload Manager.

The diminutive sensors will be placed in rows across a silicon carbide framework and span an area just slightly under half a square meter. It’s a billion little eyes ready to be turned towards the skies…

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However, no optical telescope is complete without a mirror assembly and GAIA delivers. It is crafted with a set of 10 mirrors… alll with outstanding physical and optical characteristics. “Since the design process began in 2006, the GAIA team has learned how to produce a set of sintered silicon carbide mirrors which is not only extremely strong and ultra-stable – with about twice the rigidity of steel – but also lightweight and with a high thermal conductivity,” said Matthias Erdmann, ESA’s GAIA Payload Systems Engineer responsible for optics and ceramics.

“Although these are not the first silicon carbide mirrors that have been made for a space mission, no mirrors as large as the GAIA primary mirror have previously been coated using the CVD process,” he added. “The degree of similarity of the mirror pairs is also quite unique. This is particularly important for GAIA , since each telescope must have similar optical capabilities, with diffraction limited viewing and minimal wavefront errors. Their outstanding optical characteristics achieve new standards that will be of great value to the development of future space observatories. As a result of this programme, the European industrial team has been able to master all of the processes required for making state-of-the-art space mirrors, and become the world leader in mirror technology.”

But getting GAIA into space hasn’t been an overnight process. From initial approval of the project to launch encompasses 13 years – and an additional 7 to 8 to analyze the resulting data. Just consider its downlink – about 5 Mbit/s during its daily passes. While that’s comparable to a home broadband system, GAIA isn’t doing it from home. It’s transmitting from a million and a half kilometers away.

GAIA Telescope Array - Credit: ESA

“The raw data that has to be collected is about 100 terabytes, and when all the data are processed in the archive we are talking about up to one petabyte,” says Giuseppe Sarri, Esa’s Gaia project manager. “For the analysis, a supercomputer will be needed to get out all the numbers.”

Yet, Gaia is not the first space mission to chart the heavens. In 1989, ESA also took on Hipparcos – a catalog effort well known even to the amateur community. It produced a primary catalogue of about 118 000 stars, and a secondary catalogue, called Tycho, of over 2 million stars. Even these impressive numbers will pale next to GAIA, whose mirrors will collect thirty times more light and measure a star’s position and motion two hundred times more accurately. At the end of its five-year mission, the information will fill over 30,000 CD ROMs – filled with 1000 million celestial objects – and be freely distributed to the astronomical community.

And we’ll be waiting…

Explore further: How ancient impacts made mining practical

More information: GAIA Mission Pages: sci.esa.int/science-e/www/area… index.cfm?fareaid=26

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User comments : 71

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sigfpe
5 / 5 (1) Oct 21, 2011
CD-ROMs went the way of the floppy drive years ago. Pop science needs to use units that people can relate to. 30,000 CDs is probably about 10,000 hours of American Idol at HD streamed at iTunes quality.
YawningDog
not rated yet Oct 21, 2011
The video returned "error #2036" to my computer.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.9 / 5 (14) Oct 21, 2011
"At the end of its five-year mission, the information will fill over 30,000 CD ROMs filled with 1000 million celestial objects and be freely distributed to the astronomical community." - Article

Damn Communists.
LVT
1 / 5 (22) Oct 21, 2011
How much did this actually cost?

How many taxpayers will actually get anything out of this?

Would taxpayers have willingly funded this if they were given the choice?
J P P
4 / 5 (4) Oct 21, 2011
LVT - I would wholeheartedly contribute my tax money to projects like this.
LVT
1.2 / 5 (20) Oct 21, 2011
Good, In future projects like this should be donation, not extortion funded.
RealScience
5 / 5 (15) Oct 21, 2011
LVT - Over each of the 13 years of this project, the cost is 25 minutes of the world's military expenditures.

I also would support this voluntarily. Why don't you get the government(s) to cancel taxes, and I'll be happy to give worthy projects such as this ten times my per-capita share.

In the mean time, I'd rather governments spend tax dollars on something like this than on most of the other things they spend money on.
Vendicar_Decarian
4 / 5 (14) Oct 22, 2011
"Would taxpayers have willingly funded this if they were given the choice?" - LVTard

How many would willingly fund roads, police or hospitals given the choice?

Self directed taxation is a failure. That is why mandatory taxation was created.
Vendicar_Decarian
4 / 5 (16) Oct 22, 2011
"In future projects like this should be donation, not extortion funded." - LVTard

Ya, just like policing and health and safety standards for food and drugs taking America from the Greatest Nation on Earth to the Greatest Failure on earth in less than 30 years.

America provides a wonderful example of the pure poison that is free market fundamentalism.

Vendicar_Decarian
4.1 / 5 (14) Oct 22, 2011
"Over each of the 13 years of this project, the cost is 25 minutes of the world's military expenditures." - RealScience

You have to realize that LVTard - like all Libertarians - believes that murdering people is the only legitimate thing government should do.
Ethelred
3 / 5 (4) Oct 22, 2011
Good, In future projects like this should be donation, not extortion funded.
Anytime you want to stop paying for this sort of thing you are welcome to move out of Western Europe. Maybe Russia would like to have you. No that wouldn't do they have also have taxes.

I KNOW you could move to Somalia. That would definitely get you out of Western Europe so you don't have to pay for anymore European space programs.

Ethelred
hush1
1 / 5 (4) Oct 22, 2011
To the entire space industry, private and governmental,

Please send the 'Design for Demise' plans that all satellites must have before they are moved 1mm, much less placed in orbit.

Thank you so much for your cooperation and transparency in this matter. Await your reply.

Yours truly,
Dumbed Downed
RealScience
3 / 5 (2) Oct 22, 2011
You have to realize that LVTard - like all Libertarians - believes that murdering people is the only legitimate thing government should do.


Vendicar - I know several libertarians, and NOT A SINGLE ONE would agree with your statement.

The libertarians I know say that the only legitimate purpose of the USE OF FORCE by a government is the PREVENTION of others using force against the citizens of that government. Thus Somalia is an example of the very thing that the libertarians say a government is justified in using force AGAINST.

You appear to be confusing Libertarian and Anarchist.
Pirouette
1 / 5 (13) Oct 22, 2011
You have to realize that LVTard - like all Libertarians - believes that murdering people is the only legitimate thing government should do.


The one thing that Vendicar and certain others in this and other threads are good at, is verbal character assassination, which in CERTAIN ways can be tantamount to mental rape for one's sensitivity. Thus, the use of his "tard" extension for posters with whom he disagrees and other choice epithets.

To be fair, taxation IS a necessary evil, which is something that can be taken to extremes as in a Socialistic or Communist society. However, one of the tenets is against "taxation without representation". In the United States at least, and probably elsewhere. . . . taxation which may be opposed by a percentage of the population due to their disapproval of its use for certain things, is still in effect no matter what the cost nor the reason for the project. Example: the bridge to nowhere, or the study of the love life of earthworms
Pirouette
1 / 5 (12) Oct 22, 2011
There are some members of government (Congress, Executive and sometimes Legislative, to whom the PROPER applications of taxpayers' money is irrelevant and their opponents of the bills summarily relegated to the fringe and regarded as kooks.
Although much of the applications are truly worthy, i.e., a standing army, roads, bridges and tunnels, and weather apps., too many projects are either worthless or superfluous when others are far more important to the betterment of our society. But the fact that taxes are forcibly taken to be used for junk projects and people have NO recourse as to where their money is going, proves that sometimes a government is an adversary, rather than a friend.
Pirouette
1 / 5 (13) Oct 22, 2011
The GAIA project DOES have its merits but, in these times, the tax monies would have been better spent for humanitarian projects, at least until things get reasonably back to normal. When a society is prosperous, it is because of the will of the people for it to be. And for it to be prosperous, the government(s) need to stop spending on junk projects and more on small businesses that actually CREATE jobs. Government does NOT create jobs except the bureaucrats.
The real jobs are nowhere to be found by the majority of unemployed because of improper taxation of businesses. Government is cutting off its nose to spite its face. There will be hell to pay.
Pirouette
1 / 5 (11) Oct 22, 2011
@Hush1
Are you referring to "planned obsolescence", by any chance?
hush1
1.5 / 5 (4) Oct 22, 2011
No. Design for Demise are the plans for any imaginable destruction or damage that an object undergoes. Any destruction or damage scenario must have a harmless outcome. Regardless of how improbable or remote a damage or destructive force appears.

Refrain from rating me. This message has an address.
hush1
1 / 5 (5) Oct 22, 2011
If you can not account for every piece of debris upon reentry/destruction/damage/crash no matter what imaginable force intervenes a request to fly is hereby denied.
God and I have spoken. Go ahead, fly without permission, we dare you.
Callippo
1 / 5 (1) Oct 22, 2011
Damn Communists.
The US government is willingly spending a much more every week for "international safety". It's an act of communism of its kind, too. I do prefer to talk about local and global scheme of thinking instead of talking about capitalism and communism (which have their negative connotations already). Both ways of thinking are in mutual duality, none of them is actually better than the another one.
Callippo
1 / 5 (2) Oct 22, 2011
I'm rather pleased with mental shift, in which the people here are judging the adventurous scientific projects in much more responsible way. Before few years I was banned from here heavily for every mention of cost of LHC or gravitational wave detectors, when all laymans expected some breaking results from it.
Ethelred
3 / 5 (2) Oct 23, 2011
Pirouette:

You are now a member of the Can't Read Club. Even after my post to LVT you made the same kind of stupid post.

YOU DID NOT PAY FOR THE GAIA PROJECT. Unless you are paying EUROPEAN taxes.

Some people just shouldn't allowed on the internet without remedial reading comprehension classes.

Government does NOT create jobs except the bureaucrats.
And that is a RightWing Lie. THe US Government creates jobs and has done so since it started. Heck even the Articles of Confederation version of the US government created jobs.

Ethelred
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (2) Oct 23, 2011
Please send the 'Design for Demise' plans that all satellites must have before they are moved 1mm, much less placed in orbit.

This thing is going to L2 (about 4 times as far away as the moon). Not orbit.
JohnMoser
1 / 5 (2) Oct 23, 2011
Someone needs to do a study on how someone as stupid as Vas Deferens (VD for short. He manages to spread his poison all over Physorg)can still manage to persist.
Pirouette
1 / 5 (14) Oct 23, 2011
European taxpayers may differ with your opinion of how their money should be spent, Ethelred. Perhaps I should have mentioned that I was referring to Europe regarding the GAIA project.

Ethelred says: ""And that is a RightWing Lie. THe US Government creates jobs and has done so since it started. Heck even the Articles of Confederation version of the US government created jobs.""

And where does the U.S. Government get the money to PAY for the jobs it creates? From taxpayer money, of course. And that's why they are busy printing MORE money because the gov't is almost bankrupt from spending on bridges to nowhere and other junk projects, including subsidizing their favorite industries that they were warned about would fail. You support economic failure while supporting the inefficiency and incompetence of the Obama regime.
Pirouette
1 / 5 (15) Oct 23, 2011
Some of the ways to improve economic recovery for both Europe and the U.S. Is to get rid of the ridiculous rules and regulations foisted on businesses who find it impossible to adhere to same, and therefore go under. Taxation in Europe under Socialism is also a heavy burden on businesses, and it is the businesses who hire workers; the government's role is to maintain the military, not downsize it, differentiate between worthy projects paid for by taxpayers and junk that is a waste of money; downsize their personnel and departments which are an exercise in redundancy and incompetency and are just a ploy to increase the size of government.
While GAIA is an admirable European project, the times are not right for it. It would have been more lauded and appreciated by Europeans when their economy is better.
Pirouette
1 / 5 (15) Oct 23, 2011
If you go to Greece and ask them what they think of the expensive GAIA project, they're apt to slap you silly. :)
hush1
2 / 5 (4) Oct 23, 2011
This thing is going to L2 (about 4 times as far away as the moon). Not orbit. - AP

The thing has to get there first. What contingencies plans exist for all glitches? The red button? How much, where, what debris poses 'harmless' vs. 'harmful' threat?

Actually minimize the harm by design of all possible destruction scenarios for all products. Instead of accepting, for example, International Nuclear and Radiological Event Scales. No plan of design of demise, no permit to build.
No slack on this. No one iota. Go for transportation too.
hush1
1 / 5 (2) Oct 23, 2011
Not one iota. Goes for transportation too. I have spoken.
Obey.
Ethelred
4 / 5 (4) Oct 24, 2011
European taxpayers may differ with your opinion of how their money should be spent
What opinion? I was pointing out that you were full of it when you protested YOUR taxes being spent.

where does the U.S. Government get the money to PAY for the jobs it creates?
It is creating jobs wherever it came from. And those jobs pay taxes and pay the bills for the people that pay taxes but didn't get paid directly by the government.

that's why they are busy printing MORE money because the gov't is almost bankrupt from spending on bridges to nowhere
Palin the Tea Bagger queen spent that money. The government isn't bankrupt though Dumbass Bush did try hard.

You support economic failure while supporting the inefficiency and incompetence of the Obama regime
Where did I support Obama? What regime? That he is vastly more competent than Bush does not mean I support him.>>
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (2) Oct 24, 2011
Actually minimize the harm by design of all possible destruction scenarios for all products.

As with anything the design is a tradeoff: weight versus whistles-and-bells (like making it so safe that no matter which scenario happens there will be no impact whatsoever)

We are currently not at the phase where we have spare capacity on rockets for such stuff. Anyways: the sattelite is the smallest part of the entire launch vehicle. 'desaster-proofing' the payload while not doing so for the last stage of the rocket is like stuffing the noses of every passenger in a car on every ride with cotton against a potential nosebleed but omitting safety belts.

Once we can easily lift off stuff from Earth such considerations may be useful (if someone ever comes up with a workable design for a space elevator or similar). But not right now.
Ethelred
4 / 5 (4) Oct 24, 2011
rules and regulations foisted on businesses who find it impossible to adhere to same, and therefore go under
If they can't survive perhaps that would be for the best. Ridiculous rules clearly need to be stopped but just what constitutes ridiculous to you? For the Koch's that seems to be paying taxes your rich.

Taxation in Europe under Socialism is also a heavy burden on businesses
Taxation in Europe is a burden under capitalism. Taxes are always burdens for the inept, the incompetent and even the duplicitous. The question is what is the right amount of taxes. They have NOT gone up under Obama. Are you blaming Bush?

it is the businesses who hire workers
In China after firing the Americans?

government's role is to maintain the military, not downsize it
I see. No matter how big it is it must be maintained. Otherwise how would Haliburton stay in business?

worthy projects paid for by taxpayers and junk that is a waste of money
Easy to say. What is good?>>
Ethelred
4 / 5 (4) Oct 24, 2011
Paying for body bags in Iraq? Giving money to Haliburton in no bid contracts?

downsize their personnel and departments which are an exercise in redundancy and incompetency
I was under the impression you think the Military is Holy Ground.

While GAIA is an admirable European project, the times are not right for it
In case you have not figured it out that project started a long time ago.

From initial approval of the project to launch encompasses 13 years
So you want them to piss away over a decade of spending and work. I see, the word 'waste' is something you simply don't comprehend.

It would have been more lauded and appreciated by Europeans when their economy is better.
It has been contributing to the European economy for over a decade. People worked, spent money, paid taxes and didn't send it all to China. You are being conned by people that have no respect for you they just want to use you. Much like the tobacco companies.

Ethelred
antialias_physorg
5 / 5 (1) Oct 24, 2011
No matter how big it is it must be maintained. Otherwise how would Haliburton stay in business?

Looks like socialism to me.
...or the bailout of the banks
...or the bailouts for the big auto makers
...
Pirouette
1.3 / 5 (15) Oct 24, 2011
No matter how big it is it must be maintained. Otherwise how would Haliburton stay in business?

Looks like socialism to me.
...or the bailout of the banks
...or the bailouts for the big auto makers

Yes. . .and it's ALL Bush's fault. Obama is blameless and, if he's reelected, in 8 years Ethelred will STILL be blaming Bush and Halliburton, even though American oil cannot get permits to drill and we are STILL depending on the whims of OPEC for fossil fuel energy. Ethelred and those like him will only be content when the U.S.A. is fully run by the Communist Party or, at the very least, a fully Socialist system.
...

Pirouette
1 / 5 (14) Oct 24, 2011
""European taxpayers may differ with your opinion of how their money should be spent""
Ethelred says: 'What opinion? I was pointing out that you were full of it when you protested YOUR taxes being spent.'

If you bothered to read my comment after that one, you would seen that I had rectified it to mean the taxes paid by Europeans, NOT the taxes I pay.
Pirouette
1.3 / 5 (15) Oct 24, 2011
""that's why they are busy printing MORE money because the gov't is almost bankrupt from spending on bridges to nowhere""
Ethelred says: 'Palin the Tea Bagger queen spent that money. The government isn't bankrupt though Dumbass Bush did try hard.'

Palin hasn't been Governor of Alaska in years and I don't recall a bridge to nowhere being built in that state.
The government IS on the verge of bankruptcy whether you protest the truth or not. That is why Obama wants to raise taxes so badly.
It sounds like you're hung up on Bush and can't let go. Of course, you have to blame SOMEBODY, so it might as well be that someone who hasn't been if the White House for 3 years now.
Pirouette
1.3 / 5 (15) Oct 24, 2011
""""where does the U.S. Government get the money to PAY for the jobs it creates?
Ethelred aays: 'It is creating jobs wherever it came from. And those jobs pay taxes and pay the bills for the people that pay taxes but didn't get paid directly by the government.'

The only jobs the U.S. Gov't "creates" are bureaucratic jobs such as, DOE, CIA, ICE, Homeland Security, IRS, and other alphabet agencies. The President appoints also to Judicial, heads of departments and arbitrarily decides which firms will be subsidized by taxpayer money. Obama has decided also to decrease the military and also decrease monies meant for Veterans' programs, etc. etc.

Pirouette
1.3 / 5 (15) Oct 24, 2011
These people WORK for the government, but get PAID by the taxpayers INDIRECTLY from money that was FORCIBLY taken from taxpayers' pockets. In effect, government workers are, in reality, working for the American citizen taxpayer, but the government doesn't SEE it that way. The gov't regime under Socialist Obama believes that it is HE that creates jobs, when all the while, the jobs are merely a part of the necessity of a bureaucracy to HELP do the work of the government FOR the governed.
Pirouette
1 / 5 (14) Oct 24, 2011
Therefore, the Government DOES NOT CREATE jobs, those jobs were always there as only a necessity for paperwork to be done and for supportive areas, such as custodians, guards, etc.

Here's a part of Economics 101 for Ethelred:
PRIVATE industries, to be successful, depend on the CUSTOMER to pay for goods and services. The industry then uses the money from the customer or client to purchase MORE goods from OTHER companies, who have ALSO hired more employees in response to a larger clientele. One company hires employees according to the amount of goods and services sold; without paying customers, the business fails. Along with that, ridiculous rules, regulations and heavy taxes assist in the failure, and employees are out the door - jobless.
Pirouette
1 / 5 (14) Oct 24, 2011
Government employees, in the meantime, are dependent on their salaries being PAID by taxpayers' money. Without the taxpayer, the President, Congress, Judges, local and state governments don't get paid and therefore, cannot exist. The jobs are gone.
WE THE PEOPLE have the power, but Obama thinks that it is HE that has it, with the backing of the full force of federal law enforcement. HE IS WRONG and will find it out.
Pirouette
1.3 / 5 (15) Oct 24, 2011
On the other hand, the CUSTOMER also depends on his/her salary from a job to PAY for groceries, and other good and services, plus things such as rent or mortgage, utilities, etc.
If the customer is heavily taxed, there is less money to pay for the goods and services from the companies or industries that depend heavily on all their customers, so that more goods can be bought, employees can be paid, and all insurances are paid also.
So basically, ALL industries that provide goods and services depend on their customers, and customers ALL depend on those industries to provide them the jobs that enable them to BE customers. These are simplified so that you can understand the concept.
Another major point is that the President, Vice President, and all others in government are employees of the American citizen. They are merely glorified government workers. Obama and Congress works for you, me, and every other American citizen.
Pirouette
1.3 / 5 (14) Oct 24, 2011
THAT is a part of Capitalism. . . .and I haven't even touched on the Stock Market yet. LOL
kaasinees
3.7 / 5 (6) Oct 24, 2011
When the european economie is better? The euro zone has the strongest economy in the world at the moment.
Pirouette
1 / 5 (12) Oct 24, 2011
You could be right. . .have to check the stock market
LVT
1 / 5 (14) Oct 24, 2011
When the european economie is better? The euro zone has the strongest economy in the world at the moment.


What colour is the sky on your planet? The eurozone is a complete financial wreck.
Ethelred
4.2 / 5 (5) Oct 24, 2011
Yes. . .and it's ALL Bush's fault.
Yes.

Obama is blameless
He is trying to fix the mess Bush made. Not doing so well. I don't know if anyone could. Its the worst mess since the Great Depression and that too was caused by ideologues refusing to do their jobs.

Ethelred will STILL be blaming Bush and Halliburton,
They REALLY wrecked the economy. It could take many years to repair the damage. However I am not defending Obama. Just pointing out who did the damage.

Ethelred and those like him will only be content when the U.S.A. is fully run by the Communist Party
You have gone from ignorance to actual lies. Are you, perhaps, Mrs. Marjon?

at the very least, a fully Socialist system.
I don't think you have a clue as to what socialism is. You seem to think it is Marxism under another name. We had a socialist government since the first public school was built, the first public sewer, the first public street.>>
Ethelred
4.2 / 5 (5) Oct 24, 2011
If you bothered to read my comment after that one, you would seen that I had rectified it to mean the taxes paid by Europeans, NOT the taxes I pay.
I saw that. It doesn't change the post I replied too. And it is pretty clear that YOU originally thought you were paying for GAIA.

Palin hasn't been Governor of Alaska in years
True. She quit. AFTER she built the ROAD to a Bridge to Nowhere.

and I don't recall a bridge to nowhere being built in that state.
Just a road. The bridge wasn't built.

That is why Obama wants to raise taxes so badly.
He wants to pay the bills. You know tax and spend vs BORROW and spend like Bush did. Bush lowered taxes and that lowering was going to end. All Obama wanted was to have the taxes revert to what they were before Bush. Back to what it was when the budget was balanced under Clinton.

It sounds like you're hung up on Bush and can't let go
Sounds like you don't want to admit the amount of damage he did.>>
Pirouette
1.1 / 5 (15) Oct 24, 2011
ummmm. . .no.
Red China appears to have a better economy. . . .and Taiwan, of course.
But, almost everyone must agree that Red China, while they were ruled by the heavy hams of Mao and other Communists, the Chinese economy wasn't too hot.
But somehow, they noticed that Taiwan was rich beyond imagination and someone thought, "hmmm. . .what are they doing that WE aren't doing""? Well, it turns out that Taiwan has a Capitalist system and is prosperous because of it. That made the Red Chinese government jealous, and they VOWED to take over the island and subjugate the Taiwanese. It didn't happen, so they did the next best thing, and that was to import some of that Capitalism, and they've been prospering ever since. They don't dare take it away now. They'd be killed.
Ethelred
4.2 / 5 (5) Oct 24, 2011
you have to blame SOMEBODY
Someone wrecked the economy. Credit where it is due.

someone who hasn't been if the White House for 3 years now.
Or it might just be the guy that cut taxes and increased spending and refused to regulate his buddies that were stealing from the public by selling bad debts.

The only jobs the U.S. Gov't "creates" are bureaucratic jobs such as, DOE, CIA, ICE, Homeland Security, IRS, and other alphabet agencies.
Oddly enough none of those are a mere bureaucracy. However that is NOT all the government does. It builds roads, controls the sea lanes, regulates businesses so that the various things we need actually work the way that the businesses claim, protect us from predatory banking, maintain competition by stopping monopolistic business practices, use the inland waterways to produce electricity and control water, oh yes promote the general welfare. Lots of other things. You really need to stop getting your information from Fox.>>
Ethelred
4.2 / 5 (6) Oct 24, 2011
arbitrarily decides which firms will be subsidized by taxpayer money
No. Though Bush was pretty arbitrary. His friends got help and their enemies went bankrupt. Perhaps that is who you are thinking of there. It isn't supposed to be arbitrary. It is supposed to be to protect the public interest.

Obama has decided also to decrease the military
Good. We are spending far more than needed. A whole war in Iraq because Bush wanted to show his daddy.

also decrease monies meant for Veterans' programs
Depends on what money and how much. I sure can't trust you as a source.

PAID by the taxpayers INDIRECTLY from money that was FORCIBLY taken from taxpayers' pockets
Taxes are part of the social contract in any nation. If you don't like the taxes you can either run for office and change them or leave the country. I recommend Somalia for those that have this sort of problem with taxes. Marjon says it is doing very well but he refuses to move there for some reason.>>
Pirouette
1 / 5 (14) Oct 24, 2011
If you bothered to read my comment after that one, you would seen that I had rectified it to mean the taxes paid by Europeans, NOT the taxes I pay.
Ethelred says: ""I saw that. It doesn't change the post I replied too. And it is pretty clear that YOU originally thought you were paying for GAIA.""

I was merely guilty of the sin of OMISSION. I knew already, from reading the article, that it is Europe that is footing the bill for GAIA.
BUT YOU CAN ACCUSE ME OF ANYTHING YOU WISH. EVERYONE IS FREE TO READ MY ORIGINAL COMMENTS, as in all threads. That will bear me out.
kaasinees
4 / 5 (4) Oct 24, 2011
When the european economie is better? The euro zone has the strongest economy in the world at the moment.


What colour is the sky on your planet? The eurozone is a complete financial wreck.


And you are thinking this because of Greece? Don't be fooled by political games.
Ethelred
4 / 5 (4) Oct 24, 2011
In effect, government workers are, in reality, working for the American citizen taxpayer,
Yes. That is the way the US government is supposed to work. WE THE PEOPLE create jobs via our government.

but the government doesn't SEE it that way.
That is a fantasy of yours.

The gov't regime under Socialist Obama believes that it is HE that creates jobs,
Nonsense. Most of the people were hired long ago. It is NOT a regime any more than Bush's gang of incompetent business buddies were. And your continuing lies about it won't make it true.

Therefore, the Government DOES NOT CREATE jobs
That does not follow from the premises. Not even if we include the false one you are enamored with.

those jobs were always there as only a necessity for paperwork to be done and for supportive areas, such as custodians, guards, etc.
Guard, military, road building and a vast number of other things are not just paperwork. You seem to have Leninist concept of jobs.>>
Pirouette
1.1 / 5 (18) Oct 24, 2011
Fox is one of the best sources for the truth, Talk radio is another one and the BBC and other British news media have no need to spout the lies and hatred for Capitalism and Conservatives as does the American MSM, which is apparently where you get YOUR news from.
Pirouette
1 / 5 (13) Oct 24, 2011
kaasinees. . . .I would hardly call the killing and beating of people in Greece as a political game.
Ethelred
4 / 5 (4) Oct 24, 2011
PRIVATE industries, to be successful, depend on the CUSTOMER to pay for goods and services.
SOME industries work that way. Some just defraud the customer. Me I work retail and have continuing direct experience in business. Do you?

long with that, ridiculous rules, regulations
Yes some industries do consider it ridiculous that they aren't allowed to engage in predatory business practices. So they really go to town with predation when their friend are in office.

and heavy taxes
Heavy is a matter of opinion. Most countries have higher taxes than the US does. The US could have lowered its taxes if Bush hadn't driven the country into near bankruptcy. We were doing quite well before he lowered taxes on his friend and raised spending.

and employees are out the door - jobless.
In many cases because the businesses sent the jobs to China. Due to lack of good regulations.>>
Pirouette
1 / 5 (12) Oct 24, 2011
Europe was at least halfway decent economically before the Euro. . .now it's in shambles. Italy, Spain, Ireland, Portugal are in bad shape, and I don't know how many others are on the brink of collapse.
Pirouette
1 / 5 (12) Oct 24, 2011
Ethelred. . . .are getting quite boring. . .it's not as though we didn't know a lot of the things you're spouting.
Why don't you run for political office so that you can actually DO something about your complaints instead of going after MY opinions as though I mattered terribly in your life.
LOL. . .are you looking for a date?
Ethelred
3.7 / 5 (3) Oct 24, 2011
are dependent on their salaries being PAID by taxpayers' money.
I have been paying taxes for 40 years as an adult. I am fully aware how this works.

WE THE PEOPLE have the power,
Not at the moment. To much of the government is now in the hands of Big Business.

Obama thinks that it is HE that has it,
That is YOUR fantasy.

HE IS WRONG and will find it out.
Since the fantasy is your I don't think he will have that particular problem. He isn't wrong just because you lie about what he thinks. He may be wrong about many things of course but not on that as it is just a fantasy of yours.

Now how about your rejoin the real world instead of wasting time telling me a combination of Fox derived
fantasies and things I already know. I recommend that you start with reading the Constitution.

Ethelred
Pirouette
1 / 5 (12) Oct 24, 2011
Bush could not drive the country into near bankruptcy. . .Congress was heavily Democrat in his last term.
Pirouette
1 / 5 (14) Oct 24, 2011
Ethelred. . . .Seems that any valid criticism of Obama and his march to Socialism is anathema to your way of thinking. Perhaps you MIGHT be able to get on his campaign staff to help sweep all dissent from his path. Try it, I'm sure you'll enjoy the company of others like him.
Ethelred
3.7 / 5 (3) Oct 24, 2011
If you bothered to read my comment after that one, you would seen that I had rectified it to mean the taxes paid by Europeans, NOT the taxes I pay.
I read it. You made your patch job AFTER I pointed out your error. And then you complained about my pointing that out. Now you are complaining that I pointed THAT out. How many times do want to encourage me to point out the original?

I was merely guilty of the sin of OMISSION. I knew already,
Your error rate is so staggeringly high that I really have a hard time taking your word on that. And know I did NOT know that when I pointed out your original error. I recommend that you just let this alone as you are only making it more clear that you goofed in the first place.

EVERYONE IS FREE TO READ MY ORIGINAL COMMENTS, as in all threads.
As I pointed to you. Good that you finally understand that.

That will bear me out.
Not in this case. It shows you ranting on this.

Ethelred
Ethelred
4 / 5 (4) Oct 24, 2011
Fox is one of the best sources for the truth
And they keep telling you that. And the rest of humanity keeps laughing.

Talk radio is another one
Even funnier.

one and the BBC
A government owned broadcaster. A SOCIALIST government at that.

and other British news media
Many also owned by the same guy, Rupert Murdock, that owns Fox. And thus just as silly.

Conservatives as does the American MSM, which is apparently where you get YOUR news from.
Never heard of it. I get my information from lots of places. Sometimes the BBC, sometimes even the Orange County Register as I live in Anaheim. The NET is a big place.

it's not as though we didn't know a lot of the things you're spouting.
You are the one that wanted to lecture ME about things I already know. Plus all those fantasies of yours. How about this. Assume if you know something and didn't learn it from a Rupert Murdock or other RightWingNut source, then it is likely I have heard of it.>>
hush1
3.4 / 5 (5) Oct 24, 2011
Asking other posters to read all your comments to answer:
"Have I ever been inconsistent?" is bad.

You can not remember your second to last sentence, much less all of your comments.

If the value of your statements are statements worth remembering you must be the first to set the example.
hush1
3 / 5 (4) Oct 24, 2011
The above comment is directed to Pirouette and no one else.
Ethelred
4 / 5 (4) Oct 24, 2011
Why don't you run for political office
Thought about it. But as an Agnostic and a none RightWingNut in Orange County it would be rather difficult to get started. Here it is best to rant about government and then engage in corruption while in government.

DO something about your complaints
YOU are the one complaining about the present government. I am simply pointing out that the PREVIOUS REGIME, to use your loaded phrase, was grossly incompetent and truly and massively screwed up the US in so many ways.

are you looking for a date?
I am too old for you. While I bet I could still beat Brad Pitt in a one hundred meter race he looks much better. So did I when I was his age.

Bush could not drive the country into near bankruptcy. . .Congress was heavily Democrat in his last term.
I see. So only two years of his mis-administration counts for you. And Congress was still heavily Republican as well those two years. WHOLLY Republican for six years.>>
Ethelred
3 / 5 (2) Oct 24, 2011
Seems that any valid criticism of Obama and his march to Socialism is anathema to your way of thinking.
Where did you see that. I am talking about the idiots that damaged the country which is Bush and his cronies.

Perhaps you MIGHT be able to get on his campaign staff to help sweep all dissent from his path.
Why would I want to do that and why would Obama start allowing it? That is something that Bush did. You remember. When his admin outed a CIA agent because her husband told the truth for one.

Try it, I'm sure you'll enjoy the company of others like him.
While I get along just fine with Blacks, indeed my nephew is part black I really am not found of Chicago politics. Your continuing efforts to paint me as a Obama fan is beginning to look like an attempt to avoid what I am really saying.

Ethelred
hush1
2.3 / 5 (3) Oct 24, 2011
For the present America, I can not find a least common denominator - LCD. If someone distorts a LCD - assuming there is a LCD - , then the distortion must have a purpose.

http://www.phrase...and.html

Most are not given the tools to discern between honest and dishonest discourse.

I will be dishonest. And resort to the worst of metaphysical conceit and plagiarize the words of the lowest of human life.

'No man is an island' - not even correctly cited.
Befitting for John Donne. Defend him. Not.
GSwift7
3.4 / 5 (5) Oct 25, 2011
Oh come on guys.

The whole Bush versus Obama and Right versus Left debate is pointless. So is the debate about whether the Government creats jobs. Both political paries are composed of people. Some people are 'bad' and some are 'good'. I don't see either side as having a monopoly on that. Every President in history had made mistakes and done good things as well. The current financial collapse started with two things: 1) The housing bubble caused by people being able to flip houses and make piles of cash with little or no investment. Bush didn't do that. 2) The outsourcing of hundreds of thousands of middle class jobs to foreign countries over the past 20 years. Bush didn't do that either.

The government does create real jobs in some some cases. When the government creates something of real tangible wealth, it creats jobs. For instance, when a new port is built or an old one expanded, or when a Federally funded highway is built or expanded. An agency like the IRS is just overhead.
GSwift7
3 / 5 (4) Oct 25, 2011
continued:

The big problem with jobs created by the Government is that it counts as overhead for non-government job creators. That has a chain-reaction effect of making it more competitive for job creators to do business in foreign countries. When they move, that leaves fewer wealth generators here in the US to cover the 'overhead' costs of the existing government created jobs. You can easily see how this works out by shrinking it down to the scale of a single household. Say there are two ouside sources of wealth in the house. One is the still in the back yard (run by dad) and the other is mom's 'dancing' earnings. The 8 children have 'jobs' in the household, and receive a weekly stipend, but only some of them count as 'income' for the house. Doing the dishes might be essential for the house, but it doesn't add wealth. The dish-washer earns pay and does a service, but it isn't a wealth generator. If everyone in the house did this, they would starve.