Physicists wary of junking light speed limit yet

September 23, 2011 By FRANK JORDANS , Associated Press

Physicists wary of junking light speed limit yet (AP)

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This undated file photo shows famed physicist Albert Einstein. Scientists at the European Organization for Nuclear Research, or CERN, the world's largest physics lab, say they have clocked subatomic particles, called neutrinos, traveling faster than light, a feat that, if true, would break a fundamental pillar of science, the idea that nothing is supposed to move faster than light, at least according to Einstein's special theory of relativity: The famous E (equals) mc2 equation. That stands for energy equals mass times the speed of light squared. The readings have so astounded researchers that they are asking others to independently verify the measurements before claiming an actual discovery. (AP Photo)

(AP) -- Physicists on the team that measured particles traveling faster than light said Friday they were as surprised as their skeptics about the results, which appear to violate the laws of nature as we know them.

Hundreds of scientists packed an auditorium at one of the world's foremost laboratories on the Swiss-French border to hear how a , the neutrino, was found to have outrun and confounded the theories of .

"To our great surprise we found an anomaly," said Antonio Ereditato, who participated in the experiment and speaks on behalf of the team.

An anomaly is a mild way of putting it.

Going faster than light is something that is just not supposed to happen, according to Einstein's 1905 . The speed of light - 186,282 miles per second (299,792 kilometers per second) - has long been considered a cosmic speed limit.

The team - a collaboration between France's National Institute for Nuclear and Particle Physics Research and Italy's Gran Sasso National Laboratory - fired a 454 miles (730 kilometers) underground from Geneva to Italy.

They found it traveled 60 nanoseconds faster than light. That's sixty billionth of a second, a time no human brain could register.

"You could say it's peanuts, but it's not. It's something that we can measure rather accurately with a small uncertainty," Ereditato told The Associated Press.

If the experiment is independently repeated - most likely by teams in the United States or Japan - then it would require a fundamental rethink of .

"Everybody knows that the speed limit is c, the . And if you find some matter particle such as the neutrino going faster than light, this is something which immediately shocks everybody, including us," said Ereditato, a researcher at the University of Bern, Switzerland.

Physicists not involved in the experiment have been understandably skeptical.

Alvaro De Rujula, a theoretical physicist at CERN, the European Organization for Nuclear Research outside Geneva from where the neutron beam was fired, said he blamed the readings on a so-far undetected human error.

If not, and it's a big if, the door would be opened to some wild possibilities.

The average person, said De Rujula, "could, in principle, travel to the past and kill their mother before they were born."

But Ereditato and his team are wary of letting such science fiction story lines keep them up at night.

"We will continue our studies and we will wait patiently for the confirmation," he told the AP. "Everybody is free to do what they want: to think, to claim, to dream."

He added: "I'm not going to tell you my dreams."

©2011 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

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ACW
Sep 23, 2011

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The implications are exciting
JeffLawson
Sep 23, 2011

Rank: 1 / 5 (7)
Must be experimental error: clocks out of sync.
The obvious thing to do is measure the return trip using the same clocks, though that might incur a large cost in extra equipment.
ArtflDgr
Sep 23, 2011

Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
very interesting discussion here..
neoneocon.com/2011/09/23/neutrinos-faster-than-light/
JIMBO
Sep 23, 2011

Rank: 1.8 / 5 (4)
I for one think it's a true discovery & that this result will be reproduced. Neutrinos have been weird since Pauli was forced to postulate them in the 30s. In the 50s, they were first discovered emanating from a nuclear reactor. In the 80s they appeared hours prior to optical observations of SN1987A. The SM of particle physics incorporated them as real, massless fermions initially, but if this result holds that they are tachyonic, it implies that any mass they have is imaginary, & they violate Lorentz invariance.
jakack
Sep 23, 2011

Rank: 3.3 / 5 (3)
Always have to be open to error or other factors not realized previously. That is science. That not only applies to this recent discovery but also to the previous "consensus" of understanding of what is.

That is probably why the good scientists seem crazy, they've got their minds open so wide that they could just about lose it.
LokiMelkor
Sep 23, 2011

Rank: 1 / 5 (7)
But according to the theory of relativity, speed of some particles can be larger than the speed of light. eg: Tackions. Their Born Speed is greaterthan c. (where c = Velo of Light in free Space)

And speed of some particles in Cherenkov Radiation, also larger than the speed of light.

According to the theory of relativity, any particle can not exceed the speed of light by accleration from it was at rest.

So The neutrino case is not against the Relativity
Gustav
Sep 23, 2011

Rank: 5 / 5 (2)
Tachyons don't violate Lorentz invariance. They're perfectly good citizens of the Minkowski spacetime. Also, contrary to what is often said, they don't violate causality, but one has to invoke re-interpretation of tachyon related events to see this. Basically a tachyon that is seen as moving back in time is re-interpreted as anti-tachyon that moves forward in time(this has been observed by Feinberg, but it's pretty obvious anyway...), then everything is fine. Tachyons show up often in various quantum field theories, but are normally discarded as unwanted artifacts. Also, at first glance tachyons would have to be spinless, because there are no representations of the Lorentz group corresponding to imaginary mass with dim > 1. So here goes the idea that neutrinos may be tachyons. But, there may be some more complex non-linear mechanism involved that would rescue this hypothesis, perhaps, similar to symmetry breaking.
pauljpease
Sep 23, 2011

Rank: 4 / 5 (4)
very interesting discussion here..
neoneocon.com/2011/09/23/neutrinos-faster-than-light/


ArtflDgr, I read some of your discussion on that other thread. Unfortunately, like all humans I've ever known, you don't know when you're mistaken. You explicitly claim that Newton was merely extended, not overthrown. That is simply and totally wrong. Newton's theory gives fairly accurate predictions in some situations, but the REASONS behind his theories are wrong. It's like saying the theory of epicycles wasn't overthrown, just extended. After all, they give pretty accurate predictions in some situations. It turns out they give them for the wrong reasons though. The common misconception that quantum theory and relativity reduce to Newtonian physics at a certain limit is just false, because the underlying mechanisms of the different theories are not connected. If you can admit you were wrong in this I might be inclined to take your other comments seriously. So what will it be?
Temple
Sep 23, 2011

Rank: 5 / 5 (2)
Unfortunately, like all humans I've ever known, you don't know when you're mistaken.

...

Newton's theory gives fairly accurate predictions in some situations, but the REASONS behind his theories are wrong.


Your post is amusing in its irony. Newton's theories provided a way to describe gravity (with pretty good accuracy, but incomplete as we all know). Newton himself gave no "REASONS" as to how gravity worked. He specifically said that he didn't know.
steven_s_greenberg
Sep 23, 2011

Rank: not rated yet
"Gran Sasso National Laboratory - fired a neutrino beam 454 miles (730 kilometers) underground from Geneva to Italy."

How does one accurately measure a distance of 730 kilometers underground? I don't think you can use a laser. How did they send light that same distance underground? The speed of light is usually stated as the speed in a vacuum. How did they compensate for the non vacuum condition underground? Have they built a 730 kilometer vacuum tunnel underground?

Lot's of questions for which I'd like to see some answers. I cannot believe that scientists as sophisticated as this would fail to have answers to these questions. So I guess I just have to wait for the answers to come out.
pauljpease
Sep 23, 2011

Rank: 3.7 / 5 (3)
Unfortunately, like all humans I've ever known, you don't know when you're mistaken.

...

Newton's theory gives fairly accurate predictions in some situations, but the REASONS behind his theories are wrong.


Your post is amusing in its irony. Newton's theories provided a way to describe gravity (with pretty good accuracy, but incomplete as we all know). Newton himself gave no "REASONS" as to how gravity worked. He specifically said that he didn't know.


Depends on how you define reason. His "way to describe gravity" postulated an invariant background (space and time), and an apparent attraction between massive objects. That's what I'm referring to when I say his "reasons", as in, his reasoning about gravity. As opposed to Einstein's reasoning about gravity, based on a variable space-time and that mass generates curvature in space-time. The difference makes me think of phlogiston theory in early chemistry, a sort of accurate theory based on flawed reasons.
GreyLensman
Sep 23, 2011

Rank: not rated yet

Lot's of questions for which I'd like to see some answers.

Read the paper - it's online.
GreyLensman
Sep 23, 2011

Rank: 5 / 5 (4)
Must be experimental error: clocks out of sync.
The obvious thing to do is measure the return trip using the same clocks, though that might incur a large cost in extra equipment.

I doubt that it's clocks, but I too think that it's a systematic error. These are smart hombres - as smart as it gets, but no-one can think of everything.
It's way, way, way too early to start rabbitting on about tachyons and extra dimensions.
Erik
Sep 23, 2011

Rank: 3 / 5 (2)
Could it be frame dragging caused by the Earth's rotation?
Daein
Sep 23, 2011

Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
Could be true, like pauljpease was talking about Newton. It's the way theories are wrong, even by tiny unmeasurable margins, like Newton's theories were for the longest time that open doors to a whole new world of understanding in Physics. If Einstein was wrong in an almost unmeasurable small way it could be a key to a whole new understanding of the universe.
CaliforniaDave
Sep 24, 2011

Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
Silly question maybe but does this result not simply represent a new, super accurate value of the speed of light? i.e. the neutrinos are travelling at c, these guys have just measured c more accurately than anyone previously?
SBuda
Sep 24, 2011

Rank: not rated yet
Must be experimental error: clocks out of sync.
The obvious thing to do is measure the return trip using the same clocks, though that might incur a large cost in extra equipment.


If that was true, the speed of light would also show a change correct? However, in the same tests, the speed of light is the same, meaning the timing is not an issue.
Cphr
Sep 24, 2011

Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
This could mean that:
A. The speed of light changes or is dynamically changing.
B. The speed of light is 60 nanoseconds faster than we were able to previously measure.
hudres
Sep 28, 2011

Rank: not rated yet
Hello ... Think about the math. e=mc^2 A neutrino has no charge (so e = 0) and no mass (so m = 0). This gives us 0 = 0 times the speed of light. Obviously this equation does not work, so this tells us we are dealing with a quantum phenomenon and that we are not limited by Einsteinian constraints.
rsklyar
Oct 02, 2011

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Plagiarism in a "family" style
How young ambitious capoes and soldiers from Italian Institute of Technology (IIT) under supervision of a decrepit american don-godfather from Northwestern University are successfully completed their sequential plagiaristic enterprise: http://issuu.com/...saivaldi
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