Scientists must leave the ivory tower and become advocates, or civilization is endangered, says Stanford biologist

Aug 12, 2011 By Louis Bergeron
'The idea that ecologists shouldn't be advocates, that they shouldn't be telling the public that what ecologists study is basically disappearing, is just nuts,' said Paul Ehrlich, Stanford professor of population studies. Credit:L.A. Cicero

Scientists, especially ecologists, have to be more active in explaining the meaning of their research results to the public if human behavior is going to change in time to prevent a planetary catastrophe, says biologist Paul Ehrlich.

Paul Ehrlich summed it up this way: "You often hear people say scientists should not be advocates. I think that is bull."

Ehrlich, the Bing Professor of Population Studies at Stanford, will be elaborating on that theme and several others when he speaks Thursday at the annual meeting of the in Austin, Texas.

In an interview a few days before the meeting began, he talked about the urgent need for scientists to take their research results and use them to inform the public about the threat of global environmental collapse. No longer can researchers consider publishing their results in a journal, no matter how prestigious, the end of their obligations.

"With society moving toward a collapse, the idea that scientists, especially ecologists, should just do their work, present their data and not do any interpretation leads to the kind of imbecility we have in Washington today, where you have an entire Congress that is utterly clueless about how the natural world works," Ehrlich said.

He said that scientists, before they embark on a research project, should ask themselves, "How, if my research yields all the results I'd hoped for, will it make any difference to the world?"

The once-dominant paradigm of "curiosity-driven" research being the "purest" way to do research is outmoded. "How you judge a good scientist, in part, is by what they choose to be curious about," he said.

It is also critical, he said, that the work ecologists do be of the highest quality and of general scientific interest. Ehrlich said he would love to see prominent peer-reviewed journals such as Science, Nature and flooded with top-notch ecology research with clear connections to the human condition.

Calling ecology the most important science today, in light of the environmental crises that are looming ever larger on a horizon that is coming ever closer, Ehrlich said that ecologists have a singular responsibility to get their work into the public eye.

"The idea that ecologists in particular shouldn't be advocates, that they shouldn't be telling the public that what ecologists study is basically disappearing, is just nuts," he said.

For the first time in human history, a complex global society is at risk of environmental collapse. Human behavior is not changing fast enough to avert the crunch that will come when the world's growing population and its need for resources overwhelms the capacity of the planet to provide, Ehrlich said.

In an effort to head off such a catastrophe, he has joined with hundreds of other ecologists, social scientists and scholars in the humanities to start the Millennium Alliance for Humanity and the Biosphere.

The goal of the project, called MAHB for short, is not just analyzing as the world sits poised on the edge of ecological , but starting a global dialogue that will eventually involve decision makers and the general public in altering society's response to its global predicament.

"We are trying to recruit the social sciences and the humanities into an attempt to make academia relevant in the world and help change the course of society," Ehrlich said. "If you are tired of living in a world where leaders think debt ceilings are more important than climate disruption and the degrading of ecosystem services, then do something about it: Join the MAHB and get active."

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lengould100
2.1 / 5 (7) Aug 12, 2011
a global dialogue that will eventually involve decision makers
There's the problem. Decision makers are, by definition, not scientists. Ever watched the interactions on a university campus between the arts and the science groups? And no power will be given up to the scientists willingly by "the decision makers".
Techno1
3.1 / 5 (20) Aug 12, 2011
The Retardigans would have fits.

"What?! Educate the public. That's madness! Coooooooooaaaal and Oooyyyyyyul are our Future. WE know how to grow an economy!"

omatumr
1.8 / 5 (30) Aug 12, 2011
Scientists must leave the ivory tower and become advocates


Scientists who become advocates can be used by those controlling grant funds.

That is the key lesson in this video summary of research (1961-2011):

1. Science vs. Propaganda (1961)

www.youtube.com/w...ld5PR4ts

2. Origin of the Solar System (1975)

www.youtube.com/w...e_Qk-q7M

3. The Iron Sun (1983)

www.youtube.com/w...QSSHIe6k

4. Neutron Repulsion (2001)

www.youtube.com/w...yLYSiPO0

5. Global Warming Scam (2011)

www.youtube.com/w...IFmZpFco

The above material is summarized in this 9-page document [The Bilderberg Sun, Climategate and Economic Crisis]

http://dl.dropbox...oots.pdf

With kind regards,
Oliver K. Manuel
Former NASA Principal
Investigator for Apollo
Callippo
1.7 / 5 (14) Aug 12, 2011
Physicists ignored cold fusion research twenty years due their fear of future jobs and carriers. Now we are facing energetic and financial crisis because of high oil prices and these guys are just suffering the consequences of their shortsighted ignorance.

http://en.wikiped...sibility

http://www.natura...ine.html

http://www.wired...._pr.html

I'm deeply disappointed with egoistic attitude of scientific community as a whole. The life environment care isn't just about ecology.
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (23) Aug 12, 2011
Scientists HAVE left the ivory tower and have become advocates.

Of course they will have to sacrifice any perception of objectivity as many have regarding their support for socialism.
ArtflDgr
2.2 / 5 (13) Aug 12, 2011
Spoken like a true believer winner of the Trofim Lysenko award for scientific excellence in politics...

this one is funny:
He said that scientists, before they embark on a research project, should ask themselves, "How, if my research yields all the results I'd hoped for, will it make any difference to the world?"

so far, my experience is, given i work in a research medical school... is that they want to play, and who cares what the earth or people will get, they will NOT redirect themselves to something else, no matter what it could mean.

the concept, le stat ce moi, becomes whatever i think is good research...

more than once i have seen them negate and prevent attainable technology or IP for the sake of not deviating from the safety of their pacifist placements and politically correct reverberation chambers.

if ramanujan existed today, we would never know about him
and relativeity would never be known as a patent clerk is not a member of the ivory guild of approved wkrs
Loodt
2.2 / 5 (17) Aug 12, 2011
Please give us just one example of a prediction made by this idiot - Paul Ehrlich - that turned out to be true. How he stays employed is one of the wonders of modern world. In olden times he would have been cast out of the city walls to go and feed on the swill fed to the hogs.
Life_is_like_that
1.8 / 5 (10) Aug 12, 2011
Scientists as advocates?.......it's worse than we thought!
omatumr
1.8 / 5 (16) Aug 12, 2011
Scientists HAVE left the ivory tower and have become advocates.

Of course they will have to sacrifice any perception of objectivity as many have regarding their support for socialism.


I sincerely wish thsee criticisms were all wrong, but sadly modern government-funded science has become like competition for

the Trofim Lysenko award for scientific excellence in politics...


Unfortunately all science, good and bad, may suffer severe budget cuts because of this abuse of government research funds to support some political agenda.

ryggesogn2
1.6 / 5 (21) Aug 12, 2011
"The claims of these organizers of humanity raise another
question which I have often asked them and which, so far as I
know, they have never answered: If the natural tendencies of
mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free,
how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good?
Do not the legislators {or SCIENTISTS}and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? The organizers maintain that society, when left undirected, rushes headlong to its inevitable destruction because the instincts of the people are so perverse."
http://www.fee.or..._Law.pdf
Techno1
3.8 / 5 (13) Aug 12, 2011
Rygg:

An honest look at humanity reveals that the greater majority of humans are not only wreckless and careless, but quite often just plain evil.

This is not a matter of contestation. It's a matter of history. Read any history book, written by anyone, and you'll find the same damn thing pretty much.

And yes, the instincts of the people are indeed so perverse that we throw away so many PET plastic bottles each year, which could be recycled.

The neighbour down the road dumps in the canal even though there is a warning of a $500 fine. The other neighbour throws his damn beer bottle in the yard at least once every week or two.

The stock market is rigged by the fat cats who trade in fake currency at everyone elses expense.

the reason we have a military is because people are evil. The pacifists from the 1930's learned that lesson the hard way with Hitler's NAZIs and the Japanese.

If pepole were inherently good, why is there law and criminal justice system?
Techno1
3.9 / 5 (14) Aug 12, 2011
And yes, people are so perverse that in the early 1900's, coal mines actually hired militias to force their own workers into virtual slavery.

And before the civil war, they had real slaves...

But now, republicans want to make anyone from middle class downwards into a slave, only they just don't use the same words now. And Suze Orman's outrageous, "The new American Dream is that you won't be able to pay for your child's college, and you wont be able to own your own home."

Why? Because the WEALTHY already own everything, and are 10 times more wealthy than they have ever been, when compared to the median wage earner.

Do you know that if the MEAN AVERAGE CEO payed 90% income taxes, he'd still pocket more than 1 millon per year? He'd still be around 28 times the mean income... and the mean income is itself heavily weighted by the top 10%...

This is slavery guy. It's not as bad as the 1800's, because of technology and stuff, but this is slavery, just a new name: Capitalism.
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (26) Aug 12, 2011
An honest look at humanity reveals that the greater majority of humans are not only wreckless and careless, but quite often just plain evil.

That is the socialist's view to justify their quest for power.

ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (24) Aug 12, 2011

why is there law and criminal justice system?

The law was established to defend from those who would kill them and take their property.
But as Bastiat points out, now the law is used to take people's liberty and property.
"When law and force keep a person within the bounds of
justice, they impose nothing but a mere negation. They oblige
him only to abstain from harming others. They violate neither
his personality, his liberty, nor his property. They safeguard all of these. They are defensive; they defend equally the rights of all."
http://www.fee.or..._Law.pdf
Recall slavery was legal until Christians campaigned for its abolition.
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (24) Aug 12, 2011
"Here I encounter the most popular fallacy of our times. It
is not considered sufficient that the law should be just; it must be
philanthropic. Nor is it sufficient that the law should guarantee
to every citizen the free and inoffensive use of his faculties for
physical, intellectual, and moral self-improvement. Instead, it is
demanded that the law should directly extend welfare, education,
and morality throughout the nation.
This is the seductive lure of socialism. And I repeat again:
These two uses of the law are in direct contradiction to each
other. We must choose between them. A citizen cannot at the
same time be free and not free."
http://www.fee.or..._Law.pdf
vidyunmaya
1 / 5 (10) Aug 12, 2011
Sub:Science to Nature and Philosophy
As the data from sun-CME reveals-Science needs to take cognizance of the Environment and work-out Sensible Index.
Human beings in depth must develop perception of Consciuosness.
Cosmology Vedas Interlinks help you in time.[Search Lulu dot com- ebookstores]
Vidyardhi Nanduri
Techno1
3.7 / 5 (15) Aug 12, 2011
That is the socialist's view to justify their quest for power.


Ok, you want to play conservative on me? or Tea Partier?

Of course, you're thinking fiscally conservative, well, whatever.

let's see what that Bible says about that, since most of the Republican candidates allegedly run on a "Christian" platform.

Let's see:

Gen. 6,5: And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually

Let's see how Jesus felt about the rich people vs the normal people.

Mark 10,25: It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God

Now maybe you claim to be Republican, maybe not, maybe you claim to be a "Christian," maybe not, but one thing I can show you, if you DO claim to be a Christian, then the Bible does NOT support the Republican or Tea Party world views as it regards accumulation of wealth.
Techno1
3.7 / 5 (15) Aug 12, 2011
And yes, this is relevant, because this speaks right to the heart of the matter.

The "rich young ruler" was a jackass. He literally would not give to the less fortunate even to save his own soul.

I mean that, no offense, but the Bible is one of the most socialist books in existence, it's just that for some reason nobody ever seems to read the passages it's involved in.

Every one of the Republicans and Tea Partiers candidates claims to be all about God, and yet they are a disgrace.

This is what real Christianity is supposed to look like.

Acts 4,32: And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common

And EVERY allegedly Christian republican or Tea Partier should read Leviticus 19, 9 to 11.

The evil Tea Partier hypocrites thump their Bible one day, and the next they want to cut "entitlements," even as they grow richer and richer.
Techno1
3.8 / 5 (16) Aug 12, 2011
Recall slavery was legal until Christians campaigned for its abolition.


You absolutely must be joking.

99.99% of Americans at the time of the Civil War identified as either Christian or Deist with a very heavy Christian background.

Everyone involved on both sides was allegedly Christian.

The plantation owners even took scriptures out of context to manipulate the slaves.

I'm not about to try to defend the actions of past so-called Christians, particularly not from the crusades forward to colonialism and slavery, because it was INEXCUSIBLE, pure evil masquerading and hiding behind the name of Jesus, of all things.

The allegedly Christian conservatives in this country are the first ones who want to start a war, yet they suck at it.

They are the first ones to want to cut anything tht helps normal people, even while they themselves get rich.

Then there's modern pastors, which a huge number of them make 5, 10, 20 times more money than anyone else.
Techno1
3.5 / 5 (16) Aug 12, 2011
So no, I don't buy the "Christianity" of any of the Republicans or Tea Partiers.

There might be a few real ones, who somehow don't realize they hold contradictory beliefs, but I haven't seen them yet.

What I see are some radicals, often allegedly Christians, who are quite literally out to KILL the bottom 1/2 of our civilization.

Their hypocritical commercial wants to compare Obama's healthcare plan to "Death Panels"?! Wow. That's rich.

Ryan Paul, the "Christian" Tea Partier wants to kill gramma outright and destroy the entire social security system and healthcare system, but hey, let's cut taxes some more on people who already make 1000 times above average.

Are you that naive?

Or are you like the Tea Party propagandist or something?

These people don't care about you, and they don't care about me or anyone else on this forum either...
Techno1
3.1 / 5 (15) Aug 12, 2011
They preyed on ignorant people who, for some reason, voted Republican or Tea Party for all the wrong reasons at the short sighted thought of a "tax break", when reality, the only tax break tea partiers wanted was that for the very wealthy.

Moreover, the problem isn't too much taxation. Teh problem is there isn't ENOUGH taxation and there isn't enough FAIRNESS in our country.

Like I said the other day, what happened to Jefferson's "Right to Life"?

Since when is "life" a priviledge reserved only for the very wealthy or the otherwise elite?

The Tea Party believes that if a persno can't afford medical care, thy should just eat it and die...

vs the founders

"Right to life, liberty, and pursuit of hapiness" written in the declaration of independence.

The Tea Party movement is quite literally the anti-thesis of what it claims to be.

It claims to be delivering people from bondage, and in reality it turns everyone into the local CEO Pharaoic Corporate Dynasty's slave..
Techno1
3.3 / 5 (16) Aug 12, 2011
But it was the Republican president who cut taxes on the wealthiest people by so much, and THEN increased MILITARY SPENDING by like I don't know quadruple or so what it had been before...

And then the republicans and Tea Partiers wants to blame "entitlements". What about the interest on that UMPTEEN TRILLION DOLLARS those fools spent in iraq and Afghanistan, ABOVE normal military spending, looking for a handful of guys with ak47 and some RPGs?

And they can't spend a few hundred million to fix some levees along the river and the gulf, but they can GIVE 800 million to Pakistan who was knowingly harboring Bin Laden.

Ironically, Obama had balls for once. Gotta give it to him, calling the hit on Osama without even contacting the Pakistanis was the right thing to do.

Anyway, this is actually the Republicans fault, and they know it, but they are counting on the usual "Christian" base, who mostly aren't even christian and uneducated, to keep electing them...
Techno1
3 / 5 (13) Aug 12, 2011
And tying it all back together, the Tea Party and Republicans are the ones who want to cut funding on almost all science, well, unless it can be weaponize that is.

Personally, I'm for an ammendment to make it an act of treason for an elected official or candidate to knowingly lie to the public or to one another about matters of government spending, economic theory, science, or taxation, OR to be found completely incompetent in said matters of governance.

I'm so sick of hearing two "experts" or two elected officials whos opinions are so different that at least one of them must be a complete liar, or else at least one of them is incompetent. Either way, at least one of them should be immediately removed from office. Our laws should be ammended to reflect punitive action for this incompentence.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (22) Aug 12, 2011
"On Sunday 28 October 1787 Wilberforce wrote in his diary: God Almighty has set before me two great objects: the suppression of the slave trade and the Reformation of society. "
http://www.reform...very.htm

I'm so sick of hearing two "experts" or two elected officials whos opinions are so different that at least one of them must be a complete liar, or else at least one of them is incompetent.

And you would be the 'expert' to decide who was lying?
Are you God?
IcePowder
1 / 5 (1) Aug 13, 2011
Enter the Church of God of the Utterly Indifferent. Age has lessened the edge of many a scientist. It is unfortunate when the job be should be left to younger more able abilities guided by older, mentoring sages. Some never achieve this status as they are unable to detach themselves from "their" science and join the "realm of others" in the pursuit of proofs...,
GuruShabu
1.9 / 5 (14) Aug 13, 2011
Biggest scam since Nazism propaganda...there is not real threat for the planet.
omatumr
1.4 / 5 (19) Aug 13, 2011
Biggest scam since Nazism propaganda...there is not real threat for the planet.


You may also notice that many of the comments employ the same totalitarian "strait-jacket" techniques used in the old USSR.

Totalitarian science - guided by politicians like Al Gore - are the greatest threat.
_nigmatic10
2.6 / 5 (5) Aug 13, 2011
As long as the ivory tower pays better, this will all amount to nothing greater than a fellowship.
Shootist
1.6 / 5 (14) Aug 13, 2011
maybe not, maybe you claim to be a "Christian," maybe not, but one thing I can show you, if you DO claim to be a Christian, then the Bible does NOT support the Republican or Tea Party world views as it regards accumulation of wealth.


So, render unto caesar, caesar's due doesn't mean anything?

You completely twisted Jesus' meaning in the eye of the needle story. "For it is impossible, except through God" being the culminating (para)phrase.

"If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."

Have at thee, bucko.

Your twisted version of Christianity was invented in the 1960s, refined in the 1980s and released to us plebeians, slowly, over time. It is complete B/S from a Biblical scholarship point of view. Heretical from a Religious point of view.

It has even caused Law Schools to be torn asunder.

http://www.mindin...ool.html
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (17) Aug 13, 2011
render unto caesar, caesar's due doesn't mean anything?

The coin in question had a picture of Caesar on it. Jesus said if the govt owns the money, return the money to the govt.

sell what you possess and give...


Yes, Jesus said the owner of the wealth should GIVE. That doesn't give license for the govt to TAKE. Note Jesus did not TAKE.
Pete1983
4.3 / 5 (4) Aug 14, 2011
It's all really a moot point isn't it?

Judging by the comments above, I think most people would agree with me that we're all wasting our time. From the article:

"With society moving toward a collapse"


Leaving climate change aside for the moment, it's clearly irrelevent who says what and to who at all. We talk about politicians having no understanding of nature/reality (absolutely true), and within that framework, is it even POSSIBLE to have change for the better?

I don't believe it is. It's also not really their fault. People will naturally support the system that supports them, even if the system is what is the problem in the first place. Politicians have had their hands tied long before they enter office, even before they think of entering office, because the system dictates the actions, not the people.

So we're screwed. We have a significant amount of the population working in jobs that produce nothing for society. Until our Civ collapses, things CANNOT get better.
liutenantdan
4.2 / 5 (5) Aug 14, 2011
Can all of you dispense with the religion talk? No amount of arguing over the bible is going to lend anything meaningful to this discussion.
Cazerith
2.6 / 5 (5) Aug 15, 2011
I have never seen Omatamr act like a scientist. He constantly throws around crazy theories he has no backup for, and only ever references himself. I would be highly suspicious of anything he has to say about anything. And for someone who believes that scientists should not be political advocates, he sure has strong political views.

Additionally ryggesogn2 is an ideological nightmare who I dont think ever will grow up and move past seeing the world in black and white terms. He just goosesteps along to the march of his corporate masters, chanting "communism is evil!" with the rest of the brownshirts. From how crazy they sound you'd think pretty soon they'll be lynching anyone who gives a dollar to a homeless man for being a socialist.

A quick google on either of these people's usernames will give you all the information you need to know about them.
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (12) Aug 15, 2011
Can all of you dispense with the religion talk? No amount of arguing over the bible is going to lend anything meaningful to this discussion.


Religion is what Ehrlich is promoting. He has been doing so since the 70s.
liutenantdan
3 / 5 (4) Aug 15, 2011
Religion is what Ehrlich is promoting. He has been doing so since the 70s.


Paul Ehrlich? I think you're thinking of a different Ehrlich... Paul Ehrlich is an atheist. And this is a science news aggregation website. Why you guys are even here I have NO idea.
liutenantdan
3.7 / 5 (3) Aug 15, 2011
omatumr
1.9 / 5 (11) Aug 16, 2011
Are there any environmentalists, skeptics, and promoters of AGW that do not agree on these objectives:

1. We want world peace.
2. An end to nationalistic warfare.
3. An end to the threat of mutual nuclear annihilation.
4. Cooperative efforts to protect Earth's environment and bounty.
5. Governments controlled by the people being governed, including
6. Transparency and veracity (truth) of information provided to the public.
Ethelred
3.3 / 5 (11) Aug 16, 2011
Sure Oliver, Marjon won't agree with it. Neither will most other Libertarians. It has Government in it.

Ethelred
rawa1
1 / 5 (4) Aug 16, 2011
So far the civilization become richer, when new areas were revealed and/or when new technological findings were applied. Today the Earth is explored well and the chance, we can find some raw source in it is quite low. Under this situation the technological findings is the only thing, which could keep the human civilization sustainable. Therefore I'm really upset, when the mainstream physics ignores the cold fusion research for twenty years. We really losing time, while facing global nuclear war for the fossil fuel sources and subsequent wars for food and another resources. We would need the oil for carbon industry, we cannot burn it all - not to say about increasing devastation of life environment. Every day we are losing precious genetic information, which has been stored during million years of evolution in form of endangered species. It contains the key for a new technological findings, the cancer cure, etc...
omatumr
1 / 5 (6) Aug 16, 2011
Sure Oliver, Marjon won't agree with it. Neither will most other Libertarians. It has Government in it.

Ethelred


Thanks, Ethelred.

Perhaps I asked the wrong question. Maybe the question should be:

Do you agree with these objectives?

1. We want world peace.
2. An end to nationalistic warfare.
3. An end to the threat of mutual nuclear annihilation.
4. Cooperative efforts to protect Earth's environment and bounty.
5. Governments controlled by the people being governed, including
6. Transparency and veracity (truth) of information provided to the public.

It appears that Henry Kissinger, Chinese Chairman Mao and Prime Minister Chou-en-lai agreed to end the space race to achieve the the first four goals in 1971 and President Nixon made it official in 1972.

Items 5 and 6 may be the two issues that divide proponents and skeptics of AGW today.

Again, thanks for your comment.
ryggesogn2
1.9 / 5 (13) Aug 16, 2011
oday the Earth is explored well and the chance, we can find some raw source in it is quite low.

Have you noticed the all the new species recently discovered?
Or all the new oil fields?
Maybe the low hanging fruit has been picked, but there are still many more new discoveries to be made on earth.

The objectives above can best be achieved by free and prosperous people. Not those struggling under socialist regimes.
Ethelred
3 / 5 (10) Aug 16, 2011
Henry Kissinger, Chinese Chairman Mao and Prime Minister Chou-en-lai agreed to end the space race to achieve the the first four goals in 1971 and President Nixon made it official in 1972.
It only appears that way to the deranged. Nixon never did any such a thing.

We have number 5. Mostly.

We have number 6. Again mostly.

You are simply delusional on both of those. Just like that delusion about Mao.

I am aware that many think the US government is under the control of what ever thing they have there own paranoid delusion about. Liberals think its large corporations, the Radical Right, even when they are in charge, blame Al Gore and other evil Liberals and/or commie unions. Both are partly right and partly wrong BUT for way to long the imbalance has been towards financial gamblers and the military industry.

Your problem is your theory is contrary to reality and you think no honest informed person could possibly disagree with you.

I am honest and informed. I disagree.

Ethelred
barakn
3 / 5 (8) Aug 16, 2011
The objectives above can best be achieved by free and prosperous people. Not those struggling under socialist regimes.
You mean socialist regimes like Denmark, Sweden, Finland, and Norway? Boy, do they have it rough. I'd hate to live there.
omatumr
1.8 / 5 (10) Aug 16, 2011
I am honest and informed. I disagree.

Ethelred


Thanks, Ethelred.

Are you aware that President Nixon announced plans to dismantle the Apollo program on 5 January 1972, before even traveling to China in February 1972:

http://dl.dropbox...oots.pdf

For background information on Chinese Chairman Mao and Chinese Premier Chou-en-lai, the Chinese leaders that met secretly with Henry Kissinger in 1971, see:

www.janetjagan.co...er-1962/

Environmentalism, the climate scandal, and the end of the US space program seem to have been connected since 1971.

To get past the current standoff, I hope we can all agree and work together to bring harmony out of the conflict that is currently tearing apart the fabric of our society:

http://dl.dropbox...mony.pdf

With kind regards,
Oliver K. Manuel
Former NASA Principal
Investigator for Apollo
ryggesogn2
1.9 / 5 (14) Aug 16, 2011
The objectives above can best be achieved by free and prosperous people. Not those struggling under socialist regimes.
You mean socialist regimes like Denmark, Sweden, Finland, and Norway? Boy, do they have it rough. I'd hate to live there.

They certainly are not Utopias. Sweden abolished its wealth tax to attract more wealthy Swedes home.
Alcoholism is a problem and the young leave, if they can, to find opportunities to buy a car and a house. Luxuries not readily affordable in Scanditopia.
Zoo animals don't have it too rough either.
Vendicar_Decarian
3.5 / 5 (8) Aug 16, 2011
RyggTard... I asked two questions (among many) and you have continued to refuse to answer them.

Here they are again...

---
So you would agree then that children have the same rights as adults. They are part of your "all" category aren't they? Or are rights not universal for all people in contradiction of your Randite ideology?

I take it that you believe - as do all other Libertarian/Randites that laws against drug use, prostitution and so called "victim-less" crimes are also illegitimate and should be abolished?
---

I continue to await your answer.
Ethelred
3.7 / 5 (9) Aug 17, 2011
Are you aware that President Nixon announced plans to dismantle the Apollo program on 5 January 1972, before even traveling to China in February 1972
Are you aware that contradicts your claim of a conspiracy with Mao?

The Apollo program was being ignored by most of the public. It was a Kennedy program and Nixon was not exactly a friend of Kennedy or have you forgotten that? I lived through this Oliver. I still have pictures I took of my TV screen of the Moon Landing. Well I think I do. Apollo 13 was being ignored by the news media until it went bang.

Why did you post that link? It didn't support you.

Environmentalism, the climate scandal, and the end of the US space program seem to have been connected since 1971.
Connected by nothing except paranoia. Do you have ANY evidence?>>
Ethelred
3 / 5 (8) Aug 17, 2011
conflict that is currently tearing apart the fabric of our society:
The conflict is largely a matter of people that refuse to deal with reality vs. people that are at least trying. You are one of those that has trouble with reality. You just showed it again by NOT supporting your bogus claim about Nixon and Mao. Indeed you gave evidence that goes against the claim.

Anyway I thank you for making it clear that you are full of it as usual on this.

Oh and I clearly am correct on this since I just got ones from
omatumr | Loodt | geokstr
Which is three people in dire need of getting in touch with reality. At least with Oliver he has the guts to post his nonsense. The other two have no cajones at all. Getting ones from them means you got something right.

Ethelred
ArtflDgr
1.5 / 5 (8) Aug 17, 2011
Techno1
i would read this before you and others get so smug as to party affiliations:

www.archive.org/s...djvu.txt

pay particular close attention to the testimony of Eliza Pinkston of Ouachita parish...

I already know which side your on, the problem is that you dont...

the baby was drowned, the husband had his body slashed and was killed and she was "gashed", and had to be carried into the court room to give her testimony...

this was testimony to the 44th congress...

The evidence before the returning board even the evidence introduced by the Democrats revealed a most disorderly con
dition of affairs in the parish of Ouachita.

Beginning in August....

In consequence, only a single Republican ballot, and that a
defective one, was cast ; and the Republican majority of 841 in 1874 was transformed into a Democratic majority of 1,741.

thanks to the work of the KKK, the democrats, and hundreds of murders in the south
FrankHerbert
1.1 / 5 (54) Aug 17, 2011
ArtflDgr, I suggest you look up the "Southern Strategy". It's much more recent and relevant. Parties change over time.
Ethelred
3.4 / 5 (10) Aug 17, 2011
thanks to the work of the KKK, the democrats, and hundreds of murders in the south
And these days the Republicans have taken over that sort of position. The KKK is now Republican.

Are you really that ignorant about this?

Ethelred
omatumr
1 / 5 (6) Aug 17, 2011
Instead of pointing fingers and trying to pin blame, we need to work together for:

1. World peace.
2. An end to nationalistic warfare.
3. Avoidance of mutual nuclear annihilation.
4. Cooperative protection of Earth's environment and bounty.
5. Governments controlled by the people being governed, and
6. Transparency and veracity (truth) of information provided to the public.

Governments have been working together for items 1-4 for about four decades.

Winning arguments about the causes of global warming are, in my opinion, much less important now than working to insure that items 5 and 6 also survive.

With kind regards,
Oliver K. Manuel
freethinking
1 / 5 (6) Aug 18, 2011
Ethelred, can you name one democrat who was a member of the KKK? Also do you know when the last elected democrat who was a member of the KKK was elected?
ArtflDgr
1.7 / 5 (11) Aug 18, 2011
Ethelred
Robert Byrd, the Democrat from Virginia who served from 1959 until his death in 2010

elected as a Democrat to the Eighty-third, Eighty-fourth, and Eighty-fifth Congresses (January 3, 1953-January 3, 1959);

elected as a Democrat to the United States Senate in 1958 for the term commencing January 3, 1959, and served from January 3, 1959, until his death reelected in 1964, 1970, 1976, 1982, 1988, 1994, 2000, and again in 2006

Secretary, Senate Democratic Conference 1967-1971

Democratic whip 1971-1977; Majority Leader 1977-1980, 1987-1988; Minority Leader 1981-1986; President pro tempore (1989-1995, June 6, 2001-January 3, 2003, 2007-June 28, 2010); chair, Committee on Appropriations (One Hundred First through One Hundred Third Congresses; One Hundred Seventh Congress [January 3-20, 2001; June 6, 2001-January 3, 2003]; One Hundred Tenth Congress)

Bryd was a Grand Cyclops in his local KKK chapter

ArtflDgr
1.9 / 5 (9) Aug 18, 2011
Hugo Black was a Democrat Senator from Alabama and U.S. Supreme Court Justice appointed by FDR, Hugo Black was a member of the Ku Klux Klan, and was also a proponent of the separation of church and state.

July 17, 1862
Over unanimous Democrat opposition, Republican Congress passes Confiscation Act stating that slaves of the Confederacy shall be forever free

January 31, 1865
13th Amendment banning slavery passed by U.S. House with unanimous Republican support, intense Democrat opposition

The First Blacks In Congress Were All Republicans
images.nbra.info/docs/library/NationalBlackRepublicanAssociation2009/First%20Blacks%20in%20Congress%20-%20All%20Republicans.pdf

First African American elected to the U.S. House of Representatives as a Democrat: Arthur W. Mitchell (Illinois) - in 1934

and Jean Gregoire Sagbo was the first black man to be elected in russia... home of leftist socialist equality!!!
but that was in 2010

ArtflDgr
1.9 / 5 (9) Aug 18, 2011
"The most merciful thing a large family can do to one of its infant members is to kill it." -- Margaret Sanger, Women and the New Race, (Eugenics Publ. Co., 1920, 1923)
.
"Birth control: to create a race of thoroughbreds." -- Margaret Sanger, Birth Control Review, November 1921, (vol. V, no. 11); p.2.
.
"More children from the fit, less from the unfitthat is the chief aim of birth control." -- Margaret Sanger, Birth Control Review, May 1919 (vol. III, no. 5); p.12.
.
"The most successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal. We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population, and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members." -- Margaret Sanger, letter to Clarence Gamble, Dec. 10,1939. - Sanger manuscripts, Sophia Smith Collection, Smith College.

left loves Sanger...
Ethelred
3.5 / 5 (8) Aug 20, 2011
Dixiecrats are not Democrats and most of them joined the Republican Party after Lyndon Johnson pushed through the Civil Rights act.

Do learn some history.

Ethelred
ryggesogn2
1.3 / 5 (13) Aug 20, 2011
In AL last year, republicans took control of the legislature after 130 years of democrat control.
"On his deathbed in 1874, Senator Charles Sumner (R-MA) told a Republican colleague: You must take care of the civil rights bill my bill, the civil rights bill. Dont let it fail. In March 1875, the Republican-controlled 43rd Congress followed up the GOPs 1866 Civil Rights Act and 1871 Civil Rights Act with the most comprehensive civil rights legislation ever. A Republican president, Ulysses Grant, signed the bill into law that same day."
"During the twenty years of the FDR and Truman administrations, the Democrats had refused to enact any civil rights legislation. In contrast, President Dwight Eisenhower signed the 1957 Civil Rights Act, "
"Republicans supported the 1964 Civil Rights Act much more than did the Democrats."
http://biggovernm...hts-act/
That is history.
omatumr
1.4 / 5 (11) Aug 20, 2011
Consensus science is Big Brothers tool to control people & information. World leaders secretly formed BB to protect the world (and themselves) from the threat of mutual nuclear annihilation.

That noble goal cannot be achieved in democratic societies by deception.

It is encouraging that Australian citizens are uniting in convoys headed to Canberra for a show of no confidence in government leaders support for the AGW story and the environmentalist movement [1].

Since world leaders and leaders of scientific organizations and the news media apparently secretly united about 40 years ago to support environmentalism and AGW (anthropogenic global climate change) propaganda of the day,

Citizens of the world must unite in demanding an end to tyranny and restoration of the basic right of citizens to control their governments.

1. No Confidence Rally, The Internat'l News Magazine
www.international...ce-rally
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (9) Aug 20, 2011
"In the Senate, Dirksen had no trouble rounding up the votes of most Republicans, and former presidential candidate Richard Nixon lobbied hard for passage. On the Democrat side, the Senate leadership did support the bill, while the chief opponents were Senators Sam Ervin (D-NC), Al Gore (D-TN) and Robert Byrd (D-WV). Senator Byrd, whom Democrats still call the conscience of the Senate, filibustered against the 1964 Civil Rights Act for fourteen straight hours. At a meeting held in his office, Dirksen modified the bill so it could be passed despite Democrat opposition. He strongly condemned the Democrat-led 57-day filibuster: The time has come for equality of opportunity in sharing of government, in education, and in employment. It must not be stayed or denied. It is here!"
http://biggovernm...hts-act/
FrankHerbert
1.1 / 5 (54) Aug 20, 2011
Byrd may have been a member of the KKK in his youth, but iirc at his death he had the highest score on civil rights (from the NAACP I believe) of any member in Congress. He repented.

Current members who currently behave as if they are members of the klan are who you should be harping about. Oh wait, they're republicans.

Marjon, I don't think you can be any more intellectually dishonest by mentioning a filibuster of civil rights and not mentioning Strom Thurmond's filibuster, the LONGEST speech in recorded history.

Did you look up the "Southern Strategy" artfldgr or are you artfly ddgng?
ryggesogn2
1.6 / 5 (14) Aug 20, 2011
The NAACP is a 'liberal' organization. They support the advancement of 'liberal' colored people.
It is the 'liberal' the promotes racism in an attempt to keep colored people in their party. It it the 'liberal' that is NOT colorblind and racist. They see the color of people before they see the individual.
See how the 'liberal' treats non-whites that are conservative.
ryggesogn2
1.6 / 5 (13) Aug 20, 2011
Congressman Alen West:
"Instead of maintaining its mission and vision, the NAACP has now become the "useful idiots" (a term coined by Vladimir Lenin) for liberal racism. They have made themselves into a political hack job organization which now seeks to maintain the liberal progressive socialist control of the 21 century plantation. It is on this new economic plantation where the liberals seek to enslave the black community in order to maintain a devoted, monolithic, voting electorate.
I find it interesting that the NAACP was silent when Senator Harry Reid made his insidious comments about President Obama was favorable, likeable, because he is "light-skinned" and did not speak in "negro dialect".
"It is this duplicitous hypocrisy which allows me to state that the NAACP is shamefully now a liberal racist enabler. "
http://atlasshrug...ism.html
ryggesogn2
1.7 / 5 (12) Aug 20, 2011
"Indivisible, Liberal Racism does not believe in "e pluribus unim", they prefer a balkanized America where they can pit us against each other through their manipulated messages....such as Tea Party racism.

Liberal racism does not believe in Liberty and Justice for All, they believe in freedom defined by a ruling class elite while creating more victims who become dependent upon their dishonest benevolence. Justice in the world of Liberal Racism means social and economic justice rooted in a principle of leveling, which founding father Samuel Adams spoke against. Al Sharpton defined justice as everyone having the same in every home in America.....government engineering of results and outcomes. "
http://atlasshrug...ism.html
omatumr
1.4 / 5 (10) Aug 20, 2011
Climategate was the key to decipher a puzzle - ending with a solar storm engulfing Earth [1] - beginning with Kissinger's visit to China in 1971 [2] to initiate secret agreements with leaders of nations, science and the news media to:

a.) Unite nations,
b.) End the space race,
c.) Eliminate nationalism,
d.) Avoid nuclear annihilation.

Consensus science is Big Brother's way to control information.

World leaders formed BB to protect us from nuclear annihilation in 1971 - a noble goal that deception cannot achieve without establishing a tyrannical one-world government.

Australian citizens are uniting in convoys headed to Canberra for a show of no confidence in their government's support of BB's environmental cover and AGW fraud [3].

http://science.na...memovie/

http://dl.dropbox...mony.pdf

www.international...ce-rally
Ethelred
3.8 / 5 (10) Aug 20, 2011
Frank, there is no sense in arguing with someone whose only response is to post more lies to support the previous lies. First he posted crap from BEFORE LBJ and then he posted about Al Sharpton. Sharpton is not a Liberal, he is not a Conservative he is simply an opportunist who became a 'reverend' because that is the best way to shear the sheep.

If he had been white and southern he would have been a Televangelist.

Ethelred
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (15) Aug 20, 2011
Don't bother Ethel with facts. It destroys his 'liberal' racist fantasies.
Ethelred
3.4 / 5 (10) Aug 20, 2011
Let us know when you actually use relevant facts Marjon. The KKK is not a Democratic organization it was once a DIXIEcratic organization. It is now mostly Republican when it has anything to do with any political party.

And Al Sharpton is much like you. His beliefs and his public life are irrelevant to his public behavior. Your constituents don't know about your behavior here. You and he lie a lot. Birds of a feather.

Ethelred
ryggesogn2
1.6 / 5 (14) Aug 20, 2011
"For years Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson have earned a great living and enjoyed celebrity by betraying their own people. When you are still attempting to convince blacks they are victims in the greatest land of opportunity on the planet, the president is black and the richest woman in the country is also black, it is an insidious betrayal.

So Al, you're out of here! There's a new sheriff in town. Media, if you insist on "getting the black perspective", how about giving us black folks a little credit by loosening your paradigm that we are all victims. Show some respect. Speak to a few conservative, self sufficient and successful entrepreneurial blacks, we do exist; rather than running to interview your typical liberal, whiners, eternal victims, racists and poverty pimps. "
http://www.americ...mer.html
At least we can agree that Sharpton is an opportunist. Who are the suckers he cons? 'Liberals'. Why are they so gullible?
ryggesogn2
1.6 / 5 (14) Aug 20, 2011
The Black Panthers are a racist organization supported and defended by the current leaders of the Democrat party.
Ethelred
3.2 / 5 (9) Aug 21, 2011
I used to a former Black Panther. Nice guy. Was trying to figure out how to help his daughter get a singing career.

Quit fantasizing Marjon. I am not going to waste time havinga real discussion with a lying troll. I am talking to Frank not you.

Ethelred
Ethelred
3.5 / 5 (11) Aug 21, 2011
Climategate was the key to decipher a puzzle - ending with a solar storm engulfing Earth [1] - beginning with Kissinger's visit to China in 1971 [2] to initiate secret agreements with leaders of nations, science and the news media to:
And Oliver has exactly as much evidence for this bizarre bit of paranoid fantasy as he does for Neutron Revulsion. None whatsoever.

This is typical of Oliver. When the questions get too intense and he can't see anyway out he tries a complete diversion and spams the hell out the site with new garbage.

Quality is his dignity.

Just as much dignity as his quality.

Ethelred
ryggesogn2
1.6 / 5 (14) Aug 21, 2011
I used to a former Black Panther.

I am not surprised.
Black Panthers are a racist organization supported and defended by the current Democrat power structure.
omatumr
1.3 / 5 (12) Aug 21, 2011
I do not want to be the bearer of bad news, but . . .

We are running out of time.

That part of the iceberg below the surface - misinformation on the origin, composition and source of energy in the Earth-Sun system - must be corrected.

Our government has wasted time and valuable resources trying to develop Hydrogen fusion - the imaginary stable energy source of the Sun and other stars - to meet future energy needs.

Hydrogen is a waste product, not the fuel, of neutron-rich stellar cores [1]

1. Neutron repulsion, The APEIRON Journal, preprint, in press,
19 pages (2011): http://arxiv.org/...2.1499v1

Oliver K. Manuel
Former NASA Principal
Investigator for Apollo
Ethelred
3.4 / 5 (10) Aug 22, 2011
I used to a former Black Panther.
So sorry to disappoint you but that was a typical Ethelred typo. It should have said

'I used to KNOW a former Black Panther.' The NICE GUY part should have made that clear.

As for me my guilty secret is that I used to be a Republican. Even voted for Ronald Reagan and Richard Nixon.

Black Panthers are a racist organization supported and defended by the current Democrat power structure.
And it is mostly gone these days. But the KKK is a even more racist organization and is coddled these days by Right Wingers and in the past by Dixiecrats.

No one has to stay a racist. He didn't. Heck even George Wallace stopped being a racist.

Perhaps you can stop being a lying troll. First you have to understand that you need to change. Real change not just a lick and promise to be a good boy. As a first step you could stop posting on the taxpayers dime. A simple but constructive start.

Ethelred
Ethelred
3.5 / 5 (11) Aug 22, 2011
misinformation on the origin, composition and source of energy in the Earth-Sun system - must be corrected.
I completely agree. You can stop spamming the site with what looks exactly like unsupported NON-information OR you could actually do what REAL scientist do an post SUPPORTING evidence.

The ONLY evidence you have ever posted is evidence that a supernova was involved in the formation of the Solar System. You have produced NO information that supports the your idea that the Sun was that supernova.

Nothing that shows the Sun has a neutron core.

Nothing that shows the Sun has an iron mantle that YOU claim can be seen in Sunspots despite the spectrographic evidence showing that there are only traces of iron even in Sunspots.

Nothing to support the idea that bound neutrons have EVER been seen to decay. Despite decades of observation of water, iron, heavy water and in the first such experiment cleaning fluid.>>
Ethelred
3.4 / 5 (10) Aug 22, 2011
Nothing to show that your magic table isn't completely explained by the Pauli Exclusion Principle.

Nothing to explain how iron or hydrogen could exist as a solid or a gas when it is right on top of a neutron star.

No evidence of Neutron repulsion of any kind since the table is explained by the PEP.

And of course no acknowledgement that you are even aware that these are problems. Instead you spammed the site with nonsense about Nixon and Mao in a conspiracy and after that got too embarrassing here you are with spam option one. Again.

Even dogs get tired of going in circles Oliver. All you have to do to stop that is produce evidence or admit you don't have it.

Ethelred
Ethelred
3.5 / 5 (11) Aug 22, 2011
Go ahead Loodt, since you think I deserve ones. Lets see YOU justify it. Post the evidence that you think Oliver has. Show that Neutron repulsion exists. Show that Mao, Nixon and EVERY single president since has conspired to create bogus evidence for global warming.

If you don't I am going to return the favor. Oliver gets ones from me for refusing to answer not for being a child molester. Any time he stops evading and for that matter right now and in the past he doesn't get ones when the posts aren't as idiotic as the crap on this thread or one of his many spam fests.

Ethelred
ArtflDgr
1.7 / 5 (12) Aug 26, 2011
"Gentlemen, comrades, do not be concerned about all you hear about Glasnost and Perestroika and democracy in the coming years. They are primarily for outward consumption. There will be no significant internal changes in the Soviet Union, other than for cosmetic purposes. Our purpose is to disarm the Americans and let them fall asleep." -- Mikhail Gorbachev

"The threat of environmental crisis will be the 'international disaster key' that will unlock the New World Order." -- Mikhail Gorbachev, quoted in "A Special Report: The Wildlands Project Unleashes Its War On Mankind", by Marilyn Brannan, Associate Editor, Monetary & Economic Review, 1996, p. 5

Why dont you ask them ethel?

only those naive who have no experience talk like you...
and by experience i mean actually living in a country that has what you want... not what you imagine it is...

your so sad and small, like the confused ex soviets of my family when they came here, and saw that it was real not fake...
Ethelred
3.5 / 5 (8) Sep 01, 2011
Why dont you ask them ethel?
Why? They are about as realistic as you.

only those naive who have no experience talk like you
I am long past naive.

and by experience i mean actually living in a country that has what you want
Out of curiosity, just where the hell do you think I live? And what do you think I want? You seem to have some serious delusion on that.

I am a Communist, a convinced Communist! For some that may be a fantasy. But to me it is my main goal.
Mikhail Gorbachev - Said while the Soviet Union still existed. Guess what? He was wrong about it surviving. He lied a lot while in office. He is about the worst source for real information anyone could choose. He is the guy under whom the Soviet Union died. And it was against his wishes. Too bad they have a KGB officer running the place now but at least much of the former Soviet Union is no longer under Stalinism.>>
Ethelred
3.5 / 5 (8) Sep 01, 2011
And the New World Order is a fantasy invented by the Czarist Russians to attack Jews. It isn't real. Nor is any crap that uses the idea since was a lie in the first place.

your so sad and small,
I love the way RightWingNuts like to call me 'sad' it seems to be the only thing they can manage sometimes. I find it sad that anyone would resort to nonsense like the NWO and especially to support a child molesting Crank.

What the hell is the matter with you anyway?

Ethelred
ArtflDgr
1.8 / 5 (10) Sep 01, 2011
Out of curiosity, just where the hell do you think I live?

not the soviet union or communist china like my family did
[you can also include Nazi/communist Latvia, and communist Slovakia too]

that is unless your part of the ruling class in that system, then you might be... but if not, then your just a dupe

or havent you noticed that the wealthy are benifiting from your ideas vastly more than they would otherwise?

or that the side your on is calling for a second holocaust...

but then again.. engels said there has to be a holocaust to exterminate the hide bound capitalists (jews).. i can quote him if you like, but he used the term conflagration.

reading all the works of stalin, lenin, and such is required there, or was... what did you read? or did you learn yours over coffee at starbucks and marxist history courses?
Ethelred
3.3 / 5 (7) Sep 03, 2011
not the soviet union or communist china like my family did
No. I live in Anaheim California, the land of Disney and RightWingNuts and of course Capitalism. Living in Stalinist and Maoist countries does not make one an expert on economics.

but if not, then your just a dupe
Sure are free with that word in regards to people that you know nothing about. I know that is the case because you seem to be under the delusion that I am some sort of Commie pinko Stalinist Maoist fool simply because I disagree with Oliver.

I disagree with him because he makes up crap and calls it true.

or havent you noticed that the wealthy are benefiting from your ideas
Sorry but I don't actually have any patents that wealthy people are making money off of. Do try to deal with reality instead of this fantasy you seem to have about me.>
Ethelred
3.3 / 5 (7) Sep 03, 2011
or that the side your on is calling for a second holocaust...
More fantasy. Please tell oh lord of my personality just what side is it that I am on? I am curious to know just what it is that I actually believe in since it is clear that you know more about me than I do.

but then again.. engels said there has to be a holocaust to exterminate the hide bound capitalists (jews)
And what does that have to do with me? What is this delusion you have about me? Disagreeing with nonsense does not in any way make me Communist anti-Semite.

I think you owe me and everyone else here an apology for those insults.

reading all the works of stalin, lenin, and such is required there, or was... what did you read?
Oh The Wealth of Nations, the Baroque Cycle, All About Whales, A Christmas Carol, Citizen of the Galaxy, Origin of Species, The LA Times, The Orange County Register, Beat The Dealer, several books on the stock market, How To Succeed In Business Without Really Trying,>>
Ethelred
3.3 / 5 (7) Sep 03, 2011
The Big Ball Of Wax, Darkly Dreaming Dexter, The Lord of Light, Programming the 6502, I Claudius, The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress, all the photography books at Cal State Long Beach, The Teachings of Don Juan A Yaqui book of purest Bullshit, Flashman at the Charge, absolutely no interminable Russian novels, I Robot, The Children Of Nagasaki, a bunch of textbooks for college, are you noticing any kind of trend here yet, Fire In The Valley, Old Man's War, The Hunt For Red October, Oliver's court summaries, several biographies of Houdini, The Speckled Band, Scientific American, some Shakespeare, Pygmalion, Greek and Roman history, US Civil War stuff, and at least a thousand more but no not the Communist Manifesto nor Atlas Jerked nor any other book based on fantasy economics dependent on humans being something other than humans. Had enough of that with Heinlein.

Now how about you deal with what I say instead making up shit like that and claiming it is me.

Ethelred
Pete1983
3 / 5 (2) Sep 05, 2011
Ah Ethelred, I love to see someone who can rattle off so many books off the top of their head, simply because they have read so many recently. I've almost completed my goal of reading everything by Aldous Huxley, George Orwell and Oscar Wilde. It's like an overload of genius...
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Sep 05, 2011
If you understand what you read by Huxley and Orwell, do you still support socialism?
Ethelred
3.7 / 5 (3) Sep 06, 2011
Some day Marjon you MAY learn to deal with reality and learn the difference between fiction and reality.

Atlas Jerked is fiction as was Aldous Huxley's best know book, not to be confused with his ancestor Thomas Huxley AKA Darwin's Bulldog. And I didn't mention Huxley because I didn't finish A Brave New World as I found it even more tedious than Le Morte De Arthur which I also did not finish.

Orwell was primarily writing about Fascism though Animal Farm is about Communism but then neither are the sort of socialism most countries actually practice. The United States has been socialist since BEFORE it began.

Until you learn the difference between fiction and reality you aren't going to understand the difference between Marxism, Leninism, Stalinism, Fascism, Nazism, and a reasonable balance between capitalism and socialism. After you get that idea you need to learn about banking and the usefulness of a national bank.

Till you learn those things you will make asinine posts.

Ethelred
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (11) Sep 06, 2011
What makes good literature is how well it describes the human condition. Atlas Shrugged is describing the 'progressive' world today.
the difference between Marxism, Leninism, Stalinism, Fascism, Nazism,

Unless you want to practice one of these, what anyone should care about is what they all have in common, state control of the individual and his property.
Ethelred
3.4 / 5 (5) Sep 06, 2011
What makes good literature is how well it describes the human condition.
What makes it worthless is how BADLY it matches actual human beings.

Atlas Shrugged is describing the 'progressive' world today.
About as well as Flat Earthers describe our planet.

Unless you want to practice one of these
Can't see any reason to. They all are as deficient as Atlas Jerked in dealing with reality. And of course you ignored the rest of the sentence where the actual point was.

state control of the individual and his property.
Which is not modern socialism in any of the European Economic Community nations nor the United States.

Which is what you need to learn. Things to not become the way you claim simply because you or Ann Rand makes a claim. Somalia is what results when YOUR and HER ideas are put into to practice. The problem with ideologues is that they refuse to the evidence that anyone can see if it conflicts with their fantasy.

Start dealing with REALITY.

Ethelred
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Sep 06, 2011
Somalia is what results when YOUR and HER ideas are put into to practice.

The previous govt in Somalia was a 'prgressive' govt before it collapsed.
The local tribal societies that have exisited for generations still exist and still function.
The real problem is that various gangs keep trying to gain power and be recognized as a nation-state. That is the 'progressvie' way.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Sep 06, 2011
"Somalia's adherence to socialism became official on the first anniversary of the military coup when Siad Barre proclaimed that Somalia was a socialist state, despite the fact that the country had no history of class conflict in the Marxist sense."
"Despite the revolutionary regime's intention to stamp out the clan politics, the government was commonly referred to by the code name MOD. This acronym stood for Mareehaan (Siad Barre's clan), Ogaden (the clan of Siad Barre's mother), and Dulbahante (the clan of Siad Barre son-in-law Colonel Ahmad Sulaymaan Abdullah, who headed the NSS). These were the three clans whose members formed the government's inner circle."
http://countrystu...a/24.htm
1991 Jan 27, Muhammad Siad Barre, the dictator of the Somali Democratic Republic since 1969, fled Mogadishu as rebels overran his palace and captured the Somali capital. Dictator Siad Barre was ousted and power fractured into some 27 warring sides and Ali Mahdi Mohamed declared him
Ethelred
3.4 / 5 (5) Sep 07, 2011
Somalia IS what happens when there is no government. They have no government at present and it is EXACTLY the sort of thing that John Galt was looking for up his fictional ass. No government. That only works in FICTION. In reality you get Somalia.

You can't change that by trying to patch over it with the past. In the PRESENT there is no government.

By the way loodt since you chose to down rank me without posting I returned the favor. You have dropped two tenths overall so far. I can lower it more if you insist.

Ethelred
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (11) Sep 07, 2011
DPRK has govt. Who is better off? Somalis or North Koreans?

"Better Off Stateless:
Somalia Before and After Government Collapse"
http://www.peterl...less.pdf

Statists like Ethel can't accept the possibility people don't need a powerful state to control their lives.
Ethelred
3 / 5 (6) Sep 07, 2011
So because another country has a government that you don't like that means Somalia is a wonderful place. Way to go on ignoring reality yet again.

Somalia is NOT better off. It is EXACTLY what you claim you want yet here you are. Lying and evading.

I don't need a state to control my life.

I need it control sociopaths like the fictional John Galt and large corporations where is is against the rules to have a conscience.

And now Loodt will drop another tenth.

Ethelred
Pete1983
3.7 / 5 (3) Sep 08, 2011
somewhat off topic, but ethel you said this:

"large corporations where it is against the rules to have a conscience."

I find it simply amazing that more people don't understand and condemn this as a serious issue in society... Simply amazing. Runaway growth/profit motive and no regard for anything but the bottom line... and this is considered GOOD for us as a society?

Anyway, on another note, nice work Ethelred for condemning Ayn Rand earlier as well.

I'll let you guys all get back to the Somalia debate now...
rsklyar
1 / 5 (2) Sep 18, 2011
One good example of plagiaristic research results at Northwestern University for explaining the meaning to the public: issuu.com/r_sklyar/docs/sklyarvsmussaivaldi
lengould100
1 / 5 (2) Sep 23, 2011
Ethelred's CLEARLY hit the problem on the head with the remark about corporations and consience. A total lack of consience is MANDATED for corporations at present along with a sociopath(et)ic concentration on profit above all else. Reminds me of watching that hidden camera reporting of the meeting in Texas just after the start of Iraq war where contractors were jostling each other to get inside tracks on security contracts for Iraq.

This whole setup needs a re-think, and that has NOTHING to do with socialism or capitalism.
lengould100
1 / 5 (1) Sep 23, 2011
A person's ethical position can be quite well summed up by what their reaction was to Sean Penn's attempts to discredit the Iraq invasion 2. Penn has to be the most self-disciplined person I've yet seen simply because he didn't deck Larry King during some of those interviews. BTW, what have you done for Haiti lately? I saw Penn get caught walking into a medical facility carrying a crate of supplies on his shoulder and he wouldn't even stop to acknowledge the BBC reporter.

We need some more leaders-by-example like that around here.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Sep 23, 2011
What has Penn done to change Haiti's corrupt govt system?
But why should he as he supports socialists.
lengould100
1 / 5 (1) Sep 23, 2011
All your stupid "-isms" are obsolete. Wake up. Is Haiti's government more corrupt than that of the the US? Why? I'd guess lives lost per year due to US govt. corruption (invasion of Iraq, sloppy ignoring of New Orleans, etc. etc.) totals higher.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (9) Sep 23, 2011
All your stupid "-isms" are obsolete. Wake up. Is Haiti's government more corrupt than that of the the US? Why? I'd guess lives lost per year due to US govt. corruption (invasion of Iraq, sloppy ignoring of New Orleans, etc. etc.) totals higher.

Have you moved to Haiti?
Ethelred
4 / 5 (4) Sep 24, 2011
Have you moved to Somalia?

No one here claimed that Haiti is wonderful place.

However YOU have supported Somalia as doing things right AND it's government, none, fits what you claim in post after post to be exactly what you want.

So Pirate Captain Marjon, when are you going to quit being a politician, taking money for a job you don't believe in, and move to Somalia?

Ethelred
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) Sep 24, 2011
Lenny implied Haiti was better than the USA.
ryggesogn2
1.6 / 5 (7) Sep 24, 2011
Lenny's hero:
"Sean Penn: Journalists who call Hugo Chávez a dictator should be jailed"
"The Organisation of American States recently accused Chávez of intolerance and authoritarianism," {These guys should know.}
http://www.guardi...enezuela
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (8) Sep 24, 2011
"Destroyed by an earthquake the likes of which it had never seen, Haiti can pull itself out of complete devastation, Catholic Relief Services Emergency Director William Canny believes. Its success or failure, however, will be in spite of other countries' help.

Canny, who talked about the earthquake's aftermath Wednesday evening at St. Mary's Hildebrandt Hall, had lived in Haiti for several years prior to the disaster before returning in the two months afterward. "
"If anyone's going to do anything, people working with the Haitians must work with them to empower them. Canny told a story about how the United States has been delivering rice grown here to the Haitians as aid for decades -- a noble idea until one considers that the Haitians used to grow rice themselves and no longer do.

"(Former President) Bill Clinton recently apologized for doing that," Canny said. "
http://posttrib.s...lic.html
Ethelred
2.6 / 5 (5) Sep 25, 2011
Lenny implied Haiti was better than the USA.
Some people measure corruption differently. He is wrong on that but he did not call it a good place.

"Sean Penn: Journalists who call Hugo Chávez a dictator should be jailed"
So what is new about Sean being an ass. Kind of like you on that only in the opposite direction. At least he actually trying to help people with money and time. I don't want him in government, ever. He might even be worse than you.

Its success or failure, however, will be in spite of other countries' help.
That is nonsense. It may be despite SOME KINDS of help but they would have a colera epidemic without the help they recieved. Few countries have the tools to deal with that kind of disaster. Only the US and Japan have both the experience and the equipment with that sort of disaster. Much of the US experience has been in other countries and a large percentage of that is from my state, California.

Ethelred
lengould100
2.3 / 5 (3) Sep 26, 2011
Lenny implied Haiti was better than the USA.
Actually, perhaps you could take some reading comprehension lessons as well as general science. I merely stated that Haiti's government is probably not more corrupt than that of the US.
lengould100
3 / 5 (2) Sep 26, 2011
Ethelred. On what basis do you state that Sean Penn would be worse in government than say Dick Cheney?
Ethelred
3 / 5 (2) Sep 27, 2011
On what basis do you say that? I only said he isn't fit to be in government. Statements like he made do not need comparatives. He isn't fit. That in no way implies that VP Mad Dog is fit.

Funny thing is no one has any difficulty understanding who I am talking about when I say VP Mad Dog. I have never seen anyone else say it that way so it isn't like it is a standard phrase. Even the idiots that support him know who I am talking about so why do they support him?

Ethelred