Do planets rob their stars of metals?

Aug 02, 2011 By Jon Voisey
Artist's impression of the Solar Nebula. Credit: NASA

t has been known for several years that stars hosting planets are generally more rich in elements heavier than hydrogen and helium, known in astronomy as “metals”. These heavy elements help to form the cores of the forming planets and accelerate the formation process. However,a new study has helped to suggest that the opposite may also be true: Planets may make their host stars less metal rich than they should otherwise be.

The new research is led by Ivan Ramirez at the Carnegie Institution for Science. In it, the team analyzed the unusual exo-planetary system 16Cygni. The star system itself is a triple star system composed of two stars similar to the sun (A and B) as well as a (C). The solar A star and the red dwarf form a tight binary system with the sun-like B star in a wider orbit of nearly 900 AU. 16CygniB was discovered to be host to a Jovian planet in 1996 making it one of the first systems known to contain an extrasolar planet.

The study analyzed the spectra of the two solar type stars and found that the one around which the planet orbits was notably lower in metals than the one in the binary orbit with the red dwarf. Because both stars should have formed from the same molecular cloud astronomers assume their initial compositions should be identical. Since both are similar masses, they should also have evolved similarly in their main-sequence life which should rule out divergence in their chemical fingerprints.

Similar properties have been noted in a 2009 paper by astronomers at the university of Porto in Portugal. In that study, the team compared our own Sun to other stars of similar composition and age. They discovered that the Sun had an odd feature: It was notably depleted in elements known as refractory metals when compared to volatile elements with low melting and boiling temperatures. The team suggested that those missing elements may have been stolen by forming . The newer study makes the same proposition.

Both teams note that the effect is not conclusive. They consider that 16CygA may have been polluted by heavy elements, possibly by the accretion of a planet or similar material. However, they note that if this was the case, they should also expect to see an additional amount of lithium. Yet the lithium abundance for the two match. The 2009 paper considers similar cases. They consider that the solar nebula may have been seeded by a nearby supernova that would enhance the abundances, but the enhanced elements do not seem to match the expected productions for any type of supernova. Still, with such a small number of systems for which this effect has been discovered, such cases of special pleading are still within the realm of statistical possibility. Future work will undoubtedly search for similar effects in other planetary systems. If confirmed, such elemental oddities could be considered as a sign of planetary formation.

Explore further: Young binary star system may form planets with weird and wild orbits

More information: arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1107/1107.5814v1.pdf

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User comments : 49

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SteveL
5 / 5 (9) Aug 02, 2011
They discovered that the Sun had an odd feature: It was notably depleted in elements known as refractory metals when compared to volatile elements with low melting and boiling temperatures
*blink* *Blink*

What? No iron core? Oh no!
FrankHerbert
2.1 / 5 (11) Aug 02, 2011
Lol I was going to make a comment about Old Ironsides, but since SteveL beat me to it I'm not going to bother to make the joke work!
Simonsez
5 / 5 (1) Aug 02, 2011
Quick, someone call the solar expert and forums poster omatumr!
Skultch
3.9 / 5 (8) Aug 02, 2011
Quick, someone call the solar expert and forums poster omatumr!


I let him know. I saw him at the DMV changing his license plat from FE-SUN to Feel-Son.

Too far? :)
FrankHerbert
1.6 / 5 (9) Aug 02, 2011
Damn.
Skultch
not rated yet Aug 02, 2011
Damn.


If I made /you/ blush, then maybe it was too far. :)

Tasteless jokes aside, I'm actually curious to see his response.
Shootist
2 / 5 (4) Aug 02, 2011
Quick, someone call the solar expert and forums poster omatumr!


I let him know. I saw him at the DMV changing his license plat from FE-SUN to Feel-Son.

Too far? :)


Has he been adjudicated guilty of any crime? Is he incarcerated?

Do you have personal knowledge or are your statements based on your own interpretation of facts unknown?
jselin
5 / 5 (1) Aug 02, 2011
I opened this article specifically to check for omatumr content and maybe leave an "in before" type comment :)
barakn
3.7 / 5 (3) Aug 02, 2011
Shootist- Is this what you were looking for? http://www.mshp.d...me=Keith
that_guy
4.2 / 5 (6) Aug 02, 2011
Mr. Oliver K Manuel was found guilty. Most of the charges were dropped due to statute of limitations. So...this means the reason he was convicted was because he continues to do the same thing consistently...just like he preaches the iron core incessantly...

As for this research, an interesting note. Commonly cosmologists/astronomers will estimate the generation of the stars by the amount and types of metals in the spectral lines of light. Soooooo....if this research truly pans out and is confirmed (Which will take a while, even if their hypothesis is correct) It would mean that the scientists would have to re-examine a significant fraction of stars assumed or known to have planets. Not that I think it will overturn anything big, but just enough to feed the trolls here.
aroc91
3 / 5 (2) Aug 02, 2011
Quick, someone call the solar expert and forums poster omatumr!


I let him know. I saw him at the DMV changing his license plat from FE-SUN to Feel-Son.

Too far? :)


Well, considering the registry said the victim was female, your joke isn't applicable now.
jsdarkdestruction
3 / 5 (3) Aug 03, 2011
He also molested his male children too though. He just got lucky and statue of limitations stopped it from being prosecuted. Oliver actually pled guilty to the charge they could still press, he admitted himself he is a child molester. Now he talks about how god forgives him or some shit and that he has overcome his past and he's moving on. Piece of trash doesnt even feel guilty over what he did. Oliver should of spent the rest of his life in prison where he would of learned how it feels to be raped like he did his children.
jsdarkdestruction
not rated yet Aug 03, 2011
Interesting article, i cant wait to read more when theyve got some more data on it, be it confirming data or refuting data.
dcoder
5 / 5 (1) Aug 03, 2011
jsdarkdestruction: I clicked *report abuse* on your comment to justify all who felt the adianoeta on reading it...
jsdarkdestruction
5 / 5 (2) Aug 03, 2011
I'm sorry if i offended you or anyone else(besides oliver of course). Since oliver was not on the thread going off topic on his climate change conspiracy theory and his also saying other scientists are all lying and not credible at all I should of not posted what i did as it takes away from the point i often try to make. when oliver goes and says modern science is all some big corrupt conspiracy of some sort and hiding evidence and lying. (read all his posts if you dont believe me) I like to question his credibility and penchant for telling the truth just like he tries to do with other scientists. Based on mr. maunuels past and inability to answer any questions of his pet theory i would say NO, he is not credible and i think others should also see the whole side of the picture and not just what oliver says.
Husky
5 / 5 (2) Aug 03, 2011
i suppose they have to iron out a few kinks at the heart of the theory now...
LKD
3 / 5 (2) Aug 03, 2011
Is it possible the sun was acquired and not accreted locally?
that_guy
not rated yet Aug 03, 2011
Is it possible the sun was acquired and not accreted locally?


ummm...Consider how relative your notion would have to be. If the sun was *acquired*, then what would the planets have been orbiting? It would be a more logical thought to ask if some or all of the planets were aquired.

Now to answer your revised question, I think current theory would suggest that some, but not a significant amount of material was aquired after the formation of the solar system. However, i don't think we're sure enough to put it out of the realm of possibility that more substansive amounts came in post formation.

The main argument against your suggestion is that radio-isotope and spectral analysis so far falls within theoretical limits that our system formed together - the ratios of elements and radioactive isotopes are consistent with what we know to suggest everything formed together.
LKD
1 / 5 (1) Aug 03, 2011
ummm...Consider how relative your notion would have to be. If the sun was *acquired*, then what would the planets have been orbiting? It would be a more logical thought to ask if some or all of the planets were aquired.


It's quite realistic to me that two solar systems in close proximity within the same nebula would be set into motion to merge with one another. On a grander scale Galaxy's do this often.
Temple
not rated yet Aug 03, 2011
You're comparing systems with a dozen or so gravitationally dominant objects orbiting within them, working to keep themselves together, to systems with hundreds of billions of gravitationally dominant objects orbiting within them, working to keep each other together.
omatumr
2 / 5 (8) Aug 04, 2011
Do planets rob their stars of metals?


No.

Metals, like iron (Fe) in the cores of planets near the Sun, are ejected from the central star.

The star then reforms on the pulsar core, as the Sun did.

A photosphere of waste products accumulates around the pulsar, as the Sun did.

Gravitational interactions of orbiting planets with the pulsar jerk it around inside the glowing ball of waste products (photosphere), to produce solar cycles of magnetic activity, as the Sun does.

That action also keeps the interior partially stirred, bringing more heavy elements up to the top of the photosphere.

Where astronomers see more photons emitted by metals in stars that have planets.

See:

1. "Earth's Heat Source - The Sun", Energy and Environment 20, 131-144 (2009):

http://arxiv.org/pdf/0905.0704

2. "Neutron Repulsion", The APEIRON Journal, in press, 19 pages (2011);

http://arxiv.org/...2.1499v1

With kind regards,
Oliver K. Manuel
Shootist
1 / 5 (1) Aug 04, 2011
Shootist- Is this what you were looking for? http://www.mshp.d...me=Keith


Yeah, I had looked for just this, but was unable to find it. I am sorry the information was confirmed. Regardless, thanks.
LKD
1 / 5 (1) Aug 04, 2011
You're comparing systems with a dozen or so gravitationally dominant objects orbiting within them, working to keep themselves together, to systems with hundreds of billions of gravitationally dominant objects orbiting within them, working to keep each other together.


There is evidence as well of planetary disturbances that bring them out of orbits and crashing into earth to make the moon. What is different about a solar system that planets and galaxies don't have? Or why couldn't a rogue black hole draw in two solar systems as it passes by?

I would really like to understand why this can't happen.
SteveL
4.2 / 5 (5) Aug 04, 2011
Oliver, in the face of a mountain of opposing evidence you're an army of one:
Do planets rob their stars of metals?
No.

Metals, like iron (Fe) in the cores of planets near the Sun, are ejected from the central star.
Your answer is no, but your explaination says yes. "the cores of planets near the Sun, are ejected from the central star".
Where astronomers see more photons emitted by metals in stars that have planets.
The article specifically states that they believe there are >less< photons emitted by metals in stars that have planets.

that_guy
not rated yet Aug 04, 2011
LKD, almost anything can happen, so there is some possibility that you may be right.

But:

Like I said, the radioisotope levels and elemental ratios support the single formation theory.

Also, a merger of two systems is likely to be very chaotic and throw many of the objects out of the new system. Furthermore, two stars merging would likely cause affects (Like eating up the inner planets in the ensuing chasos) in the composition and structure of the solar system.

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I am saying that there is currently no visible crumbtrail that is leading us down the path to the conclusion that we have a significant merging event or significant captured parts to our system. This is an idea that has been studied.
omatumr
1 / 5 (4) Aug 05, 2011
Steve L: "It has been known for several years that stars hosting planets are generally more rich in elements heavier than hydrogen and helium, known in astronomy as metals.
jsdarkdestruction
1 / 5 (1) Aug 05, 2011
It has been known for several years that stars hosting planets are generally more rich in elements heavier than hydrogen and helium, known in astronomy as metals.
And that proves your point that the sun ejected all the iron from its interior and that formed the cores of our planets and then the neutron core that remained resumes neutron repulsion and covers itself with a layer of hydrogen and helium waste and now its been going on long enough for more iron to be created and form a rigid structure right under the photoshpere how?
Kio
1 / 5 (6) Aug 05, 2011
jsdarkdestruction... Looks like you have rise lots of money on false researches on "hydrogen helium ball". You are sleeping badly, thinking on neutron star system - Sun. There are lots of similar falsifiers in the NASA and other scientific organizations, especially on BBT. You don't know even the alimentary nuclear laws. who is paying money to you. give me your address. I will send protest.
http://www.youtub...vk2wDYwc
omatumr
1.7 / 5 (13) Aug 05, 2011
Yes, Kio, a lot of folks in the seats of power are sleeping badly today as stock markets in the "Free West" collapse and the illusion of H-filled stars and CO2-induced global warming vanish.

An addendum (page 9) [1] suggests that Henry Kissinger himself made the agreement in 1971 with leaders of the Communist Block of nations to end the US Apollo Missions, "the space race", and to unite nations against a "common enemy" (Man-Made Global Climate Change) in order to avoid the possibility that the entire world might be vaporized like Hiroshima was on 6 Aug 1945.

President Richard Nixon was selected to be the "fall guy" for this decision [2], but Nixon started to implement the decision on 5 Jan 1972 [3] before arriving in China with Henry Kissinger on 21 Feb 1972 to "officially" make the agreement.

1. http://dl.dropbox...oots.pdf

2. www.history.com/t...on/audio

3. http://claudelafl...ams.html
jsdarkdestruction
3 / 5 (8) Aug 05, 2011
total nonsense guys. kio cant spell or properly form a sentence yet attacks me and goes on some anti-modern science rant and oliver, you need to go check yourself in asap.
Kio
1.7 / 5 (11) Aug 05, 2011
jsdarkdestruction... Each exploded old star shows its naked core - Neutron Star. Each clever student can understand easily that the star had a neutron star in the core before explosion as well. You and your friends - mainstream scientists (modern science???) have to prevent destruction Physics, Astronomy and Cosmology by false researches, false modeling and false publications in the mass media.
jsdarkdestruction
3.5 / 5 (8) Aug 05, 2011
can I have somne of what your smoking kio?
Skultch
5 / 5 (6) Aug 05, 2011
Kio. White dwarf. Look it up.
Kio
1.8 / 5 (10) Aug 06, 2011
Skultch Your opinion on white dwarf is not your blame. Nobody can study this, in the mainstream books. Physorg.com is not only forum. This is an amazing lessen for the surviving and recovering the destroyed scientific fields by jsdarkdestruction and his friends.
Each naked stellar core (neutron star) has an interesting cooling evolution stages: white... red... brown... black (so called black holes) dwarfs. These bodies are super-dense masses of the recycled neutrons (without the positrons and electrons), due to violent neutron emission is an important fuel for the stars.
Kio
1 / 5 (7) Aug 06, 2011
Skultch, violent neutron emission creates neutron star - compressed to the nuclear density by huge stellar nuclear matter. Huge compression to the nuclear density prevents nuclear chain reactions in the neutralized inner neutron core (neutron star). Violent neutron emission without the nuclear chain reactions from the inner core produce neutron star, due to violent P/N interaction around the inner neutron star. Violent P/N interactions produce thermonuclear reactions around the outer core. Radiative zone and shell are formed by working cores only. Fuel problem in the M - red stars, causes stellar explosion (so called supernova event) and we can see fiery neutron star -pulsar - superdense mass of the recycled neutrons (without the positrons and electrons).
Kio
1.6 / 5 (7) Aug 06, 2011
Skultch, cooling evolution is inseparable part for the stellar evolutions as well: " Most stars are currently classified using the letters O, B, A, F, G, K, and M (usually memorized by astrophysicists as "Oh, be a fine girl/guy, kiss me"), where O stars are the hottest and the letter sequence indicates successively cooler stars up to the coolest M class. According to informal tradition, O stars are called "blue", B "blue-white", A stars "white", F stars "yellow-white", G stars "yellow", K stars "orange", and M stars "red", even though the actual star colors perceived by an observer may deviate from these colors depending on visual conditions and individual stars observed. "
Skultch
3 / 5 (2) Aug 06, 2011
Kio, afaik, and someone more knowledgeable than myself please correct me if I'm wrong, but we have not observed a transitional phase from white dwarf into some other kind of dwarf star. The transitions hypothesis you speak of also, afaik, does not fit with many other very confident theories which ARE supported by observations. So, your hypothesis, and defense of it, is not only NOT science, but its mere existence that is now exposed to the public UNDERMINES the scientific method itself. THIS is why you and others experience vitriol on this site.

Is my wife spiking my beer with crazy pills? Have we not seen a white dwarf remain after a supernova?
Shootist
3 / 5 (2) Aug 06, 2011
No, white dwarfs are the remains of main sequence stars not massive enough to SN.
Skultch
not rated yet Aug 06, 2011
No, white dwarfs are the remains of main sequence stars not massive enough to SN.


Right, I was confused. But we have seen white dwarfs remain after the red giant expels most of its gas, right? Isn't that what is theorized to happen to our star? Point being that we've seen red giants, then we've seen white dwarfs in it's place at a later time, right? Or is that just an assumption based on what we think we know about stellar evolution?
jsdarkdestruction
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 07, 2011
Nonsense kio, oliver actually makes more sense than you...thats scary.
omatumr
1.2 / 5 (9) Aug 07, 2011
Nonsense kio, oliver actually makes more sense than you...thats scary.


Sorry about that.

Today the intriguing, sordid history of events that ended NASA's Apollo program and produced the current Economic Crisis and Chimategate were updated (back to the April 1967 Bilderberg Conference) and renamed - The Bilderberg Sun, Climategate & Economic Crisis It is available at these links:

http://dl.dropbox...oots.doc
or
http://dl.dropbox...oots.pdf

My wife and friends are afraid, but I am absolutely certain that the worse possible approach would be to show fear of these scoundrels.

Comments would be appreciated.

With kind regards,
Oliver K. Manuel
jsdarkdestruction
2.3 / 5 (3) Aug 07, 2011
Do i need to show your questionable integrity and how you lied for most of your adult life regarding your home life and parenting techniques oliver?
Kio
1.9 / 5 (9) Aug 07, 2011
Skultch, an interesting white dwarf we have in the Sirius system Sirius-B. the dwarf is under violent bombardment by ordinary neutrons, from the young neutron star system Sirius-A and the dwarf's spectrum shows almost pure hydrogen that covers internal neutron matter. Sirius-B has all signs of the naked core,had been exploded long ago... Our life is too insignificant by comparison space age, to discovery transitional dwarf bodies. Stellar explosions in the Milky, for last millenniums show only fresh neutron stars. To understand how the Crab Pulsar - neutron star will create a white dwarf we need observation for hundreds of million years... But we have enough mind to do logical chain.
An interesting fresh neutron star we have in the Crab nebula. naked core of the exploded star in 1054. Its pulsation is interrelated between neutron repulsion and gravitation attraction forces. It consist by remaining protons (insignificant percent) and recycled neutrons.
Kio
1.9 / 5 (9) Aug 07, 2011
Skultch our Sun will be explode after few billion years or destroed by collision event. "The Andromeda - Milky Way collision is a predicted galaxy collision that could possibly take place in approximately 3 to 5 billion years' time." Our Sun is the middle stage star. I'm sure, transiting K and M stages Sun will explode as a "Supernova" before the collision and destruction (merging) event. everything is written in details, in the Universe Declaration on cyclic universe - http://www.neutro...ork.html
jsdarkdestruction
3.3 / 5 (7) Aug 08, 2011
utter nonsense kio.
Kio
1.6 / 5 (7) Aug 08, 2011
jsdarkdestruction... You are a natural close-minded ignorant. You were growing by false science and feeding by false "researches" on BBT, CERN...etc, Crying utter nonsense in the all internet pages will die as a rat without the tracks. There are lots of rats in the other forums like you. They are creeping everywhere to eat unacceptable opinion. Your time, your false epoch of the BBT, CERN...etc, is over. There is began new epoch of the Cyclic Universe, Neutron Cosmology, Neutron Repulsion Science, Cosmogeological Science, Cradles of Nuclides...etc. http://www.neutro...ork.html
omatumr
1.3 / 5 (7) Aug 08, 2011
Probably few realize that they are simply repeating a foolish decision reached at the Bilderberg on 17-21 April 1967:

The Sun "is homogeneous and in hydrostatic equilibrium."

O. Gingerich and C. De Jager, Solar Physics 3, 5-25 (1968):

http://adsabs.har....3....5G

That foolishness is also a fundamental assumption of the AGW propaganda.

Every solar cycle, solar flare, and solar eruption falsifies Bilderberg's SSM and AGW.

Earth's heat source is obviously not constant, but Al Gore, Big Brother, and associates want to pretend that their propaganda is "scientific."

They are getting more desperate now because the public has realized that government scientists will manipulate data and observations for research funds.
omatumr
1 / 5 (6) Aug 08, 2011
jsdarkdestruction
3 / 5 (4) Aug 08, 2011
I've read that crap before, it didnt convince me then and it wont now. your rants about modern science dont help your credibility at all either.