Creationism creeps into mainstream geology

Jun 13, 2011

In almost every way, the "Garden of the Gods at Colorado Springs" excursion at the annual meeting of the Geological Society of America (GSA) last year was a normal — even enjoyable — field trip. Standard geologic terminology was used in the accompanying field trip guide and the guides relied on orthodox geologic thinking to explain geologic features. But in reality, the trip was anything but a normal geology field trip.

Instead, as EARTH explores in its July feature "Creationism Creeps into Mainstream ," the field trip was an example of a new strategy from creationists to interject their ideas into mainstream geology: Creationists lead field trips and present posters and talks at scientific meetings. They avoid overtly stating anything truly contrary to mainstream science. And when the meeting is over, the creationist participants go home and proudly proclaim that mainstream science has accepted their ideas.

It's a crafty way of giving credence to creationism, but the question mainstream geologists wrestle with is whether there is anything that the conveners of meetings and field trips can or should do to prevent this.

Read what one scientist suggests should be done, and read other stories on topics such as what water officials are doing to try to get ahead of a declining snowpack in the West, how geophysical tools are helping remediation managers at Hanford and other nuclear cleanup sites, and why disasters such as the Japan earthquake and tsunami affect the economies of rich or poor countries disproportionately in the July issue. And don't miss the story about the middle school student who uncovered an international
mineral scandal.

Explore further: NASA sees intensifying typhoon Phanfone heading toward Japan

More information: www.earthmagazine.org/earth/article/456-7db-6-a

Provided by American Geological Institute

4.9 /5 (7 votes)
add to favorites email to friend print save as pdf

Related Stories

Science setback for Texas schools

Mar 31, 2009

After three all-day meetings and a blizzard of amendments and counter-amendments, the Texas Board of Education cast its final vote Friday on state science standards. The results weren't pretty.

World's first geologic map is displayed

Oct 07, 2005

The world's first geologic map -- an 1815, hand-tinted, 10-feet-by-6-feet chart -- has gone on display at the Buffalo and Erie County (N.Y.) Public Library.

'Cold fusion' moves closer to mainstream acceptance

Mar 21, 2010

A potential new energy source so controversial that people once regarded it as junk science is moving closer to acceptance by the mainstream scientific community. That's the conclusion of the organizer of ...

Recommended for you

Sculpting tropical peaks

10 hours ago

Tropical mountain ranges erode quickly, as heavy year-round rains feed raging rivers and trigger huge, fast-moving landslides. Rapid erosion produces rugged terrain, with steep rivers running through deep ...

Volcano expert comments on Japan eruption

11 hours ago

Loÿc Vanderkluysen, PhD, who recently joined Drexel as an assistant professor in Department of Biodiversity, Earth and Environmental Science in the College of Arts and Sciences, returned Friday from fieldwork ...

User comments : 66

Adjust slider to filter visible comments by rank

Display comments: newest first

Corban
4.4 / 5 (10) Jun 13, 2011
The world has two kinds of problems: Man vs. World and Man vs. Man. These are the Scientist and Marketer paradigms respectively. The scientists must recognize that they are not dealing with scientists, but marketers. Instead of establishing dominion over the natural world, creationists seek to change the minds of fellow men towards certain ends.

Act accordingly.
Gawad
4.5 / 5 (26) Jun 13, 2011
Find out which churches they attend then go there and start preaching actual science during a sermon. What comes around goes around.
freethinking
2 / 5 (4) Jun 13, 2011
Gawad are you talking doing something like these people did?

http://www.thebla...-church/

malapropism
5 / 5 (10) Jun 13, 2011
Having just read the Earth Magazine article linked in the Physorg story, I can appreciate the point that the writer, Steven Newton, makes about not allowing creationists the opportunity to claim discrimination and a chance to "play the martyr" (his term). But why cannot the Geological Society of America take a stance of fair-play all-round? Make it a requirement of leading a GSA field trip that the leaders' scientific stance must be stated in advance and then, if the leaders proclaim their creationist beliefs, even up the presenters with equal numbers of "standard science" geologists to provide a counter to the creationist subtext and to set the science straight for participants on the field trips (who presumably aren't there for a christian young-earth creationist lesson, after all).
omatumr
1.6 / 5 (22) Jun 14, 2011
Creationism Creeps into Mainstream Geology


If the creationists have data to support their beliefs, they should come roaring!

Who cares? What is the concern? Honest science does not need our protection.

Is it possible that dogmatic scientists and dogmatic creationists are identical twins hiding under different cloaks of respectability?
Sinister1811
4.1 / 5 (18) Jun 14, 2011
This is why creationism and science should never be allowed to interact. Creationism is a belief-based nonsense. And science is science. There isn't any evidence of creationism, only the evidence that the believers perceive to be evidence.
Sinister1811
3.3 / 5 (7) Jun 14, 2011
Find out which churches they attend then go there and start preaching actual science during a sermon. What comes around goes around.


This guy has already done something similar -- preaching Atheism to Mormons. Pretty funny.
http://www.youtub...wgn-9Y3c
rwinners
5 / 5 (2) Jun 14, 2011
Much ado about.. Most scientists are, if not religious, at least accepting of people who are.
There is no reason that science and religion cannot get along. They are based upon two completely different paradigms... reason and belief. Yet neither can ever eliminate the other and so will co-exist ad nauseum.
Deesky
3.9 / 5 (7) Jun 14, 2011
There is no reason that science and religion cannot get along.

They may co-exist, but they cannot 'get along'.
LivaN
4 / 5 (4) Jun 14, 2011
Much ado about.. Most scientists are, if not religious, at least accepting of people who are.
There is no reason that science and religion cannot get along. They are based upon two completely different paradigms... reason and belief. Yet neither can ever eliminate the other and so will co-exist ad nauseum.


You are wrong. Science can eliminate the other utilizing facts and logical reasoning. The other simply states that facts do not apply to it.
lengould100
1 / 5 (1) Jun 14, 2011
A subtle tactic for sure. But not ultimately decisive. I'd recommend simply ignoring it on concern of any available action merely making things worse.
Gawad
3.3 / 5 (6) Jun 14, 2011
Gawad are you talking doing something like these people did?

http://www.thebla...-church/
Goodness no, much more subtil than that. Protesters are honest; they declare themselves openly. These YEC smucks hide and slink in the shadows, misrepresenting themsleves and their so called data. I'm talking about letting them see how that feels, and being real nice about it :)
Gawad
4.2 / 5 (10) Jun 14, 2011
@rwinners
Much ado about.. Most scientists are, if not religious, at least accepting of people who are....They are based upon two completely different paradigms...(sic.)[:] reason and belief. Yet neither can ever eliminate the other and so will co-exist ad nauseum.
I agree with you as far as what is quoted above. However, I would like to nuance this:
There is no reason that science and religion cannot get along.
I agree that at a more or less abstract, high level you are correct. (And science and scientists-as scientists-would probably do themselves a big favour if they would just shut up about whether there is a creator or not. It's not a question that falls within the domain of science.) The problem is rather with specific *religious denominations* making BIBLE BASED claims that are at odds with facts, with reason, with logic and therefore with science as a whole, from cosmology to biological evolution, while they try to masquerade as legitimate science.
Gawad
4.6 / 5 (10) Jun 14, 2011
Creationism Creeps into Mainstream Geology


If the creationists have data to support their beliefs, they should come roaring!

Who cares? What is the concern? Honest science does not need our protection.

Is it possible that dogmatic scientists and dogmatic creationists are identical twins hiding under different cloaks of respectability?

They misrepresent their data and ignore facts that they find inconvenient. Sound familiar?
freethinking
2 / 5 (11) Jun 14, 2011
I absolutely agree that there is no resaon why science and christianity cannot get a long. The problem is when athiest scientists dismiss out of hand creationists evidence, and when some christian pastors and creationists make stupid statements.

If either side lies or behaves badly, call them out. That is fair.
If one side has what they consider proof, check it out then respond.
I think both should be taught at schools, just for the simple reason it makes people think about what they believe, and makes people ask questions.

I tell my kids know what the other side believes better than those who believe it so you know the weakness of their arguments. If you don't believe in creationism, what better way to teach than to show the weakness in creationism.

Dogma (science or religion) is scared of open questions and debate.
omatumr
1.2 / 5 (10) Jun 14, 2011
They misrepresent their data and ignore facts that they find inconvenient. Sound familiar?


Yes, it certainly does.

In both camps.

From life itself and from the writings of others, I conclude that science and spirituality advance together on our journey through life:

"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind."

- Albert Einstein

With kind regards,
Oliver K. Manuel
Gawad
3 / 5 (2) Jun 14, 2011
1/4
I absolutely agree that there is no resaon why science and christianity cannot get a long.
Science wont get along with any branch of Christianity that doesnt accept that science and faith are two separate domains. That means Science wont get along with any branch of Christianity that interprets the Bible literally. Thats why science and Catholicism generally no longer butt heads, but why science and YECs, IDers, and other creationists and literalists always will. This also applies largely to Islam.
Gawad
4.5 / 5 (8) Jun 14, 2011
2/4
The problem is when athiest scientists dismiss out of hand creationists evidence,
No. Part of the problem is when some scientists lamely make proclamations on God as if these are scientific statements (Im lookin at YOU Hawking). Another part is that while there are, e.g., details of evolutionary theory that are still to be worked out, there is NO creationist evidence that the Earth is 6000 yrs old and was created in a day, for a Global Flood in historical times (or ever) and that life forms were made whole cloth as they are. It just aint there and *youre* the ones guilty of trying to force the data into your preconceived, unfalsifiable revealed biblical truths.
and when some christian pastors and creationists make stupid statements.
Pastors. Yes, pastors. This IS after all, a mostly American problem. We are lucky that this hasnt yet infected the whole world, though contamination has clearly been spreading into the Prairies and worming its way into Ontario.
Gawad
4.3 / 5 (6) Jun 14, 2011
3/4
If either side lies or behaves badly, call them out. That is fair.
Yeah, right. I'll buy you a beer on the day you confront the YEC shmucks who were guiding those tours.
If one side has what they consider proof, check it out then respond.
Get it through your head: there IS no PROOF. There are facts, evidence, logic, reasoning, deduction, induction, hypotheses, theories, Laws and thats it. Proofs are for mathematics. Admit it: You just really want proof of God, no? Your Faith not strong enough?
I think both should be taught at schools, just for the simple reason it makes people think about what they believe, and makes people ask questions.
Fine, teach Creationism in religion class. It has no more reason to be in science class that the idea that the Earth emerged from an Eternity in a block of Ice when that Ice was licked by a Giant Cow. In FACT the Norse beliefs may have MORE claim to be in a science class given the evidence for one or more Snowball Earths
Gawad
4.5 / 5 (8) Jun 14, 2011
4/4
I tell my kids know what the other side believes better than those who believe it so you know the weakness of their arguments. If you don't believe in creationism, what better way to teach than to show the weakness in creationism.
Creationisms main weakness is that its unfalsifiable. The problem is NOT that you are starting from the premise that God did it, in the simple sense that the universe has a Creator. That falls outside the purview of science. Oh no, rather than "science will show us how God did it," a position held by those mainstream scientists that believe in a creator or even are religious, you're starting from the premise that God did it AS IT IS WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE. And since you have no choice but to take the Bible as Gods revealed truth, no evidence, fact or logic can ever sway you, short of letting your Faith be shattered. That's the problem.
Dogma (science or religion) is scared of open questions and debate.
Only religion is BASED on dogma.
freethinking
1 / 5 (5) Jun 14, 2011
Gawad, you owe me a beer! I took on a creationist for saying somethings that he took out of context from evolutionists. I also told a pastor he is ignorant about basic science facts.

Science gets along with christianity. Only ignorant athiests and christians say otherwise. Many top ranked scientists are christian. BTW the Bible doesnt say how God made the universe, or the earth.

You are very dogmatic on your believe of christians.
freethinking
1 / 5 (7) Jun 14, 2011
Where in the following does it say how? 1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.3 And God said, Let there be light, and there was light.4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.5 God called the light day, and the darkness he called night. And there was evening, and there was morningthe first day.6 And God said, Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so.8 God called the vault sky. And there was evening, and there was morningthe second day.9 And God said, Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear. And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground land, and the gathered waters he called seas. And God saw that it was good.
Gawad
3.7 / 5 (3) Jun 14, 2011
1/2
Gawad, you owe me a beer! I took on a creationist for saying somethings that he took out of context from evolutionists. I also told a pastor he is ignorant about basic science facts.
You don't read too closely, do you? Did they guide tours at the annual GSA meeting? Still kudos if you did the right thing. Nevertheless, fogive me for having some skepticism regarding your rather general statement. Which 'somethings'? What facts?
Science gets along with christianity. Only ignorant athiests and christians say otherwise.
Whew! Thank God I'm agnostic! See reply 1/4 above. You seem quite ignorant about the various branches of Christianity and their differing relationships to the Bible and science.
Gawad
4 / 5 (4) Jun 14, 2011
2/2
Many top ranked scientists are christian.
No doubt. Is that just what it says on their baptismal certificate or are they practicing YECs? Catholics? Anglicans? 7th Day Adventists?
BTW the Bible doesnt say how God made the universe, or the earth.
Hummm. Funny, you know, I was brought up strict Roman Catholic and my TOB has it outlined in Genesis. No need for endless Bible quotes, thanks. We get enough pointless ones around here.
You are very dogmatic on your believe of christians.
Give it a rest. You're the one lumping all Christians together. Christianity isn't monolithic. (Have you ever considered that your nik is more than a little ironic?) Science and FUNDIES will always be in conflict because Fundies would rather pluck out their own eyes than believe what those eyes tell them. Inshallha, dude.
freethinking
1.4 / 5 (10) Jun 14, 2011
Gawad, Many top ranked scientists are practicing and believing christians of many different denominations. That fact shows that science and christianity are not at odds. Christianity is only at odds with Athiests who think all bible believing christians are stupid and have nothing of value to offer science.

You show that you hold the very unscientific belief that science and christianity are not compatable, and in your own words would rather pluck out your eye than see or admit that.

BTW where and when can I get my beer?
Gawad
4.2 / 5 (6) Jun 14, 2011
BTW where and when can I get my beer?
You haven't earned it yet. Not by a long shot. As usual, you choose to ignor the specifics (of the deal).

You can't do otherwise, can you? You can't help but present "Christianity" as one big monolithic religion to misrepresent your views as compatible with science. What a bunch of poppycock.
You show that you hold the very unscientific belief that science and christianity are not compatable
What a dissembling liar you are. My posts have *centered* around how science is *not* incompatible with some branches of Christianity, yet consistently conflicts with others. But you insist on saying I have written otherwise. Do you think no one else can read? Either you are too stupid to see this or are completely dishonest. Either way, you come off as such a typical Fundy. What a waste of time, of evolution, of 4 billion yrs :)

You can put your eye back in now. Please. Your pulling it out is just too gross a spectacle.
LivaN
5 / 5 (9) Jun 15, 2011

BTW the Bible doesnt say how God made the universe, or the earth.

The bible explains nothing of relevance. It makes no mention of the laws of reality. No explanation of how we were made. It contains nothing of which one would expect from a true God. It does however contain many factual errors. I physically cannot chose to believe in something which is false, until a man flies with nothing more to aid him that belief.


Many top ranked scientists are practicing and believing christians of many different denominations.

Appeal to authority. Irrelevant.
freethinking
1 / 5 (6) Jun 15, 2011
Gawad state which branches of christianity you think is against science. If I find a notable scientist of that branch then your statement would be false.

Your statment is as absurd as me stating that some non-christians are against science.
Gawad
4.4 / 5 (7) Jun 15, 2011
Gawad state which branches of christianity you think is against science. If I find a notable scientist of that branch then your statement would be false.

Your statment is as absurd as me stating that some non-christians are against science.


WHAT STATEMENT?

QUOTE IT instead of making vague allusions in the hopes of hiding your Fundy dissembling.

As to your last bit, o.k. I'm curious. For example, find me a PRACTICING 7th Day Adventist (it's one of the BIG YEC churches, so I'm being pretty damn fair) who is also considered to be a scientist of note by his mainstream scientific peers in any of the following fields:

Geology
Evolutionary biology
Cosmology
Or, what the heck, any scientific field connected to the developement of the cosmos, the Earth, and life thereupon.

How about primarily geology as that is the focus of this Physorg article.
freethinking
1 / 5 (7) Jun 15, 2011
Your ignorance about Christianity is astounding. 7th day are considered a fringe Christian denomination by most Christians. However since I consider them Christian I did a very quick search.

How about an internationally renowned physician, Dr. Carson who has authored over 100 neurosurgical publications, along with three best-selling books, and has been awarded 38 honorary doctorate degrees and dozens of national merit citations. Ben Carson is a Seventh-day Adventist, and an outspoken Christian Director of Pediatric Neurosurgery Co-Director of the Johns Hopkins Craniofacial Center Professor of Neurological Surgery, Oncology, Plastic Surgery and Pediatrics Medicine

Lets see, Famous check, mainsteam -- check. Since I know engineers who are also 7'th day I'm sure I'll find some in other science fields. Since I'm not a 7'th day I wont spend hours checking for geology, etc. Though if I did, I'm sure to find some.
freethinking
1 / 5 (6) Jun 15, 2011
BTW 7th day have 17 million followers. The total of those that call themselves christian is 2 billion.
Ethelred
4.4 / 5 (7) Jun 15, 2011
Geology
Evolutionary biology
Cosmology
Or, what the heck, any scientific field connected to the developement of the cosmos, the Earth, and life thereupon./q]

How about an internationally renowned physician, Dr. Carson
So then, the best you could do was to show utter failure to someone that was relevant.

I have read that the Jehovah's Witnesses was started by former 7th Day Adventists and yes both are fringe groups. However ANY YEC group is beyond the fringe of scientific thinking and is only going on beliefs that deny reality.

Though if I did, I'm sure to find some.
I am sure won't find any that are considered to be competent geologists. Maybe a mining engineer or two.

BTW 7th day have 17 million followers. The total of those that call themselves christian is 2 billion.
Mormons call themselves Christian. Most of those 2G Christians are Catholics and a fairly large percentage of YEC's deny that Catholics are Christians.

Ethelred
Skeptic_Heretic
4.4 / 5 (7) Jun 15, 2011
BTW 7th day have 17 million followers. The total of those that call themselves christian is 2 billion.

That would mean there are more 7th day adventists than Jews worldwide. Seeing as AIPAC is an incredibly strong lobby in the US government, you can see our apprehension when it comes to 7th day adventists.
Gawad
4.1 / 5 (8) Jun 16, 2011
1/4
Your ignorance about Christianity is astounding.
Really? That's pretty ironic given that every time you've posted here you've demonstrated I know more about Christianity than you do. From this end it's just your ignorance, plain and total, that's astounding.
Now, PUT UP or SHUT UP: you wrote
Your statment is as absurd as me stating that some non-christians are against science
QUOTE the statement you claim I made that is absrud and explain how it is absrud.
Come on, DO IT, LOSER.
(Sorry, seems to be no other way to stimulate an at least partly non-dissembling response in, err...NotThinking.)
7th day are considered a fringe Christian denomination by most Christians. However since I consider them Christian I did a very quick search.
Wow, at least you got that part right: YOU don't get to choose who qualifies as Xtian or not. 7th dayers are the 12th largest religious (not just Xtian) denomination in the world....
Gawad
4.1 / 5 (9) Jun 16, 2011
2/4
internationally renowned physician, Dr. Carson... Since I know engineers who are also 7th day I'm sure I'll find some in other science fields.
FAIL.

For all his wonderful achievements, Dr. Carson and these engineers AREN'T geologists, cosmologists, or members of ANY OTHER scientific field relevant to the article or Creationism and Global Flooding.
Since I'm not a 7'th day I wont spend hours checking for geology, etc. Though if I did, I'm sure to find some.
Idiot. Those are the relevant fields!

In other threads I have gone to bat for the idea that ANY Xtian, including Fundamentalists, may actually be quite capable of doing proper scientific research in fields not involving their Biblically driven beliefs. Why? Because all kinds of people have all kinds of silly beliefs for all kinds of reasons. But outside of those, some are capable of operating normally. E.g., I've known competent medical researchers who for some reason unfathomable to me ALSO believed in astrology...
Gawad
4 / 5 (8) Jun 16, 2011
3/4
...but this Physorg article is about *YECs* and Global Flooding, FUNDAMENTALISTS and geology. Not Catholics (> 1/2 the Xtians you refer to) or neurosurgery. So excuse me for assuming the term "science" was being applied to the physical sciences relevant to this context. I thought it was too bleedingly obvious to explicitly make the point, and I thought it was clear enough with the scientific disciplines I listed. Except, apparently, to you.

YOU'RE the one who put forward this challenge, and out of 17 MILLION 7th Dayers you can't find a single relevant ONE.
Pathetic. One big FAIL for you (though hardly surprising). No beer and NO SOUP for you!
Gawad
4 / 5 (8) Jun 16, 2011
4/4
BTW 7th day have 17 million followers. The total of those that call themselves christian is 2 billion.
Christ, man, are you dense? Retarded? Visually IMPARED? Stoned maybe??? Show ANYWHERE that I refer to ALL of Xtianity as having a problem with science you dissembling liar. (Do your kids know they have such a dissembling liar for a father?) Over half of those Xtians are Roman Catholic, and I even singled that church out as NOT being in conflict with modern science. Heck, for all their other faults (like contributing to the spread of HIV in Africa), the Vatican even contributes to modern mainstream cosmological and astrophysical research.
As usual, all you can do to try to worm your way to a point is lie, dissemble and misrepresent. Such a FUNDY thing to do. And you wonder why you get no respect from the scientific mainstream? Are you mad (read "nuts")?

Ask yourself this question instead: WHY ARE YOU SO DESPERATE FOR ACKNOWLEDGMENT FROM THE SCIENTIFIC MAINSTREAM?

Why?
freethinking
1 / 5 (10) Jun 16, 2011
SH you are right, Jews approx 13 million, for some reason I thought there were more of them... but hey, I learned something new...

How dare progressives blame Christians for the spread of AIDS. If all people followed christian beliefs, AIDS wouldn't exist.

SH made the statement a while back saying something like christians aren't scientists, yet I came up with a very large list to show him wrong. If you want a specific scientist in a specific field then go and inquire at one of the 7598 schools, colleges and universities 7'th day runs.

BTW Gawad, if you think Physorg comments section is acknowledgment from the scientic mainstream you are really deluded. All you have done in your posts is demonstrated that you have a pathological hate towards christians, that you are unbalanced, and you truly are an ignorant person.
Gawad
4.4 / 5 (7) Jun 16, 2011
How dare progressives blame Christians for the spread of AIDS. If all people followed christian beliefs, AIDS wouldn't exist.
The Catholic Church has a policy of forbidding barrier contraceptives (among others). That directly contributes to additional infections.
BTW Gawad, if you think Physorg comments section is acknowledgment from the scientic mainstream you are really deluded.
If you think THAT's what I was saying, then you're batshit crazy.
All you have done in your posts is demonstrated that you have a pathological hate towards christians, that you are unbalanced, and you truly are an ignorant person.
All that YOU'VE demonstrated is that you're completely incapable of answering the simplest questions (such as "What quote?"). And that you are unable to even rise to a challenge YOU set for YOURSELF.

I've read your dissembling lies and distortions before, so I can't say I'm surprised, still, I think you've outdone yourself here. Congratulations.
Gawad
4 / 5 (4) Jun 16, 2011
BTW, NotThinking, I'm generally considered a "conservative", just not one from RightWingNut Land, like you.
freethinking
1 / 5 (7) Jun 16, 2011
Gawad, anyone can call themselves a conservative just like anyone can call themselves a christian. So call yourself a conservative if you want to. I knew someone else who claimed to be middle of the road and called me extreme right wing. When we took a test that showed our political leanings, I was center, he was off the chart left.

Also though I'm not Catholic, if I follow their teachings and married someone who also followed their teachings and only had sex in marriage (as per general Christian teaching Catholic and Potestent) without contraceptives (a mainly though not exclusive Catholic teaching), I would get AIDS how?

On the other hand if I followed worldly progressive humanistic teachings where I have sex when and with whom I want but using contraceptives that have a failure rate of 15% with typical use, who do you think will be more likely to get AIDS?

Prov 14:3 and 16 come to mind with you.
FrankHerbert
3.5 / 5 (13) Jun 16, 2011
Actually the odds of getting AIDS through vaginal intercourse --under normal circumstances-- are very poor. The reason AIDS is such a problem in Africa is because of other STDs that cause open sores which facilitate transmission. Condoms go a long way towards mitigating this.

Also 'typical' use isn't correct use. Christians try their damnedest to prevent the spread of information on correct use.

Please keep your proverbs to yourself.
freethinking
1 / 5 (7) Jun 16, 2011
They are not my proverbs :) I'm not old enough to have written them.

So christians who live christian lives have an extremely low chance to catch any STD or AIDS. While those that follow progressive humanistic beliefs have a much higher likelyhood of catching STD's and AIDS, and it is their beliefs that are causing AIDS deaths.

Typical is the way most people use them. Since I'm not a catholic I know what typical is :) good thing I was following christian beliefs... so no harm when typical failures happened....
FrankHerbert
3.5 / 5 (13) Jun 16, 2011
Assuming Jesus existed, I doubt he'd be so smug about the deaths of millions.

Also, why do you assume AIDS sufferers in Africa aren't Christian? I'm having trouble finding data for the whole continent, but Botswana has a major AIDS problem. According to wikipedia, 70% of Botswana is Christians. I'll be looking up more data on this.
FrankHerbert
3.2 / 5 (11) Jun 16, 2011
Here is a map that shows the religious distribution of Africa.

http://upload.wik...crop.png

Here is a map that shows the distribution of AIDS in Africa.

http://awtreyms.b...d970b-pi

See a correlation?
FrankHerbert
2.5 / 5 (8) Jun 16, 2011
Typical is the way most people use them. Since I'm not a catholic I know what typical is :) good thing I was following christian beliefs... so no harm when typical failures happened....


Fornication and adultery aren't christian beliefs either so unless your wife is a giant slut I don't see why you're worried about breaking a condom with regards to contracting AIDS.
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (3) Jun 16, 2011
SH you are right, Jews approx 13 million, for some reason I thought there were more of them... but hey, I learned something new...
And how does it affect your outlook and prior statement?
SH made the statement a while back saying something like christians aren't scientists,
Bullshit. Complete bullshit.
Cynical1
1 / 5 (2) Jun 18, 2011
Wow... The vitriolic parrying in here seems quite fast and furious. It seems fairly simple to understand that both sides of this are IDEAS - a collection of assumptions that each has derived from whatever source. And are only thoughts.
Why not everybody accept that the universe and everything in it is comprised of energy (which is proven every day)and say that the transfer of energy from one form to another (Laws of physics and thermodynamics say this is so) is what built the universe - and everything in it - including us with our puny little calculating devices wrapped up in our heads.
Arguing whether one theory is right and the other is wrong invalidates the scientific method concept. I believe this is more about human ego than anything else. We humans seem to have a need to be right.
I will laugh my ass off when it is discovered that something else, completely, that bears responsibility for our existance. The energy you've expended in argument will have amounted to nothing.
Cynical1
1 / 5 (1) Jun 18, 2011
A possible Theory for consideration in our Infinite Possibility Universe/Ship;

Ants did it for a vacation spot away from their other universe... They are busy little critters and are always building something...
omatumr
1.4 / 5 (5) Jun 18, 2011
In the journey of life,

We learn to appreciate the Reality that surrounds and sustains us,

Sometimes called Cosmos, God, Sun, Universe, etc.,

As revealed through cause and effect, coincidence, contemplation, destiny, experimentation, fate, fractals, meditation, observation, prayer, providence, etc.

Oliver K. Manuel
barakn
2 / 5 (2) Jun 19, 2011
Here is a map that shows the religious distribution of Africa.

http://upload.wik...crop.png

See a correlation?


No. One maps presents data with area colored based on what the majority religion is (and is thus based on data that measures numbers of each religion as a ratio of the total population). The other map simply provides total numbers if AIDS victims per country, not as a ratio of the total population. Since many of the northern countries have lower total populations because of the Sahara desert and the Sahel, one would expect lower AIDS numbers from them anyway. The two maps are not directly comparable. This map http://en.wikiped...rica.png has better data. The trend you were pointing out is still there, but not as strong as you wanted it to be.
TheRedComet
5 / 5 (3) Jun 19, 2011
freethinking and Gawad have just made evident why secularism within government and schools are completely necessary.
Lordtimothy
2 / 5 (5) Jun 19, 2011
There is room in the world for both views. Basis for most religions is the Bible and that has no conflict with modern science. It is not a science text book, but when it does talk about science it is accurate. Earth hung upon nothing, water cycle (oh and the day thing, many references to day in the bible has nothing to do with 24 hours) ect.

As for science, it is so right on many different levels......but remember at one time the greatest minds "knew" the Earth was the center of the universe and that the world was made up of 4 items, Fire, Earth, Water and wind.

Neither one can be proven by the scientific method so there needs to be room in this world for both.
TheRedComet
5 / 5 (3) Jun 19, 2011
If we where to allow the teaching of creationism in schools then they would be obligated to teach Norse mythology, Greek mythology, Native American mythology as if the where a acceptable explanation for existence. I would love to see the expression of a Christian family when their kid comes home and says did you know that.

In the beginning of time, there was nothing: neither sand, nor sea, nor cool waves. Neither the heaven nor earth existed. Instead, long before the earth was made, Niflheim was made, and in it a spring gave rise to twelve rivers. To the south was Muspell, a region of heat and brightness guarded by Surt, a giant who carried a flaming sword. To the north was frigid Ginnungagap, where the rivers froze and all was ice. Where the sparks and warm winds of Muspell reached the south side of frigid Ginnungagap, the ice thawed and dripped, and from the drips thickened and formed the shape of a man. His name was Ymir, the first of and ancestor of the frost-giants.
omatumr
1 / 5 (5) Jun 19, 2011
There is room in the world for both views.


I agree.

The Reality that surrounds and sustains us, is

Called Cosmos, God, Sun, Universe, What Is, etc.

What Is revealed through cause and effect, coincidence, contemplation, destiny, experimentation, fate, fractals, meditation, observation, prayer, providence, etc.

With kind regards,
Oliver K. Manuel
TheGhostofOtto1923
2.3 / 5 (3) Jun 19, 2011
How dare progressives blame Christians for the spread of AIDS. If all people followed christian beliefs, AIDS wouldn't exist.
No, xians would have been busy reproducing the way god told them to; all the different sects and denominations would soon have begun bickering over who jesus loved best and who most rightly deserved the dwindling resources; and by now we would all be dead amidst the radioactive rubble.

Because WHO is going to tell a fundamentalist they cant produce as many children as they want? WHO is going to force a catholic to use contraception?

And WHO is going to tell any of them, sorry, there is not enough food to keep your children from starving, not enough clean water to keep them from getting sick? THAT is the one thing worth fighting over more than whoever it is jesus loves best. But either would be enough to kill us all.

Could you see it? A protestant US against a catholic europe against an orthodox asia, with enclaves here and there; another Cold War.
Gawad
4 / 5 (4) Jun 20, 2011
@NotThinking

I write THIS:
I'm generally CONSIDERED a "conservative"


which is about how OTHER people who know me tend to lable me, and you respond with THIS:

Gawad, anyone can call themselves a conservative just like anyone can call themselves a christian. So call yourself a conservative if you want to.


Which leads me to conclude that you really DO have a serious reading problem. At any rate you seem to regularly misinterpret pretty much everything. It that congenital? Or did they teach you how to do this in Xtian school?
Gawad
4.2 / 5 (5) Jun 20, 2011
Also though I'm not Catholic, if I follow their teachings and married someone who also followed their teachings and only had sex in marriage (as per general Christian teaching Catholic and Potestent) without contraceptives (a mainly though not exclusive Catholic teaching), I would get AIDS how?
Well, you'd still be at risk if either of you had a laps. But that's simply not relevant. You may not have noticed, but you are not in Sub-Saharan Africa and dealing with their social and economic context. The fact is that the Catholic Church's policy concerning barrier contraceptives contributes to the spread of HIV, especially in Sub-Saharan Africa. Period. Its intentions and theology don't matter squat to, e.g., a woman dying of AIDS who was infected by her husband because he does the rounds, or because she needs fish to feed her kids. Africa needs better contraceptive policies; those of the Catholic Church are monsterous (even if they have softened just a tad in the last year).
freethinking
1 / 5 (6) Jun 20, 2011
Gawad, any attempts to blame Catholics for AIDS is stupid. They are not forcing people to have dangerous sex. I would possibly agree that the Pope is causing hardship to catholics by not allowing catholics to use birthcontrol, thereby causing catholics to have more kids than they can afford to look after. But not being catholic I don't care what the Pope says is right.

To be truthful AIDS would not exist and would be eliminated if men would not participate in homosexual sex.

To be truthful progressive humanistic belief that people should have sex whenever and with whomever they want IS the cause of not only AIDS but every other sexually transmitted desease around.

Catholics and Christians can sleep at night knowing we are not responsible for the millions of needless deaths. How easily Progressive humanists and all those who promote free sex can blame catholics and christians for the deaths they directly cause is indicative of how morally corrupt they are.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (4) Jun 20, 2011
Catholics and Christians can sleep at night knowing we are not responsible for the millions of needless deaths
You didnt read my post. Religionists CAUSE the overpopulation which inevitably results in famine, war, and revolution. The blood of millions is on your hands.
To be truthful progressive humanistic belief that people should have sex whenever and with whomever they want
Redefining sex as a form of recreation separate from conception is indicative of the effort required to reduce population growth. People will have sex at any rate. You religionists would force them to do it within proscribed confines with the best chances of conception.

This was good when it was essential to outreproduce the enemy and replace battle losses. This is exactly WHY it is a central part of all religious dogma. But now it needs to end because it imperils us all.

It is a most egregious SIN against humanity to overpopulate. Your religions ALL demand it.
Skultch
5 / 5 (4) Jun 20, 2011
To be truthful AIDS would not exist and would be eliminated if men would not participate in homosexual sex.


You mean, "To be opinionated..."

"would not exist AND would be eliminated" - Wow. Think more. Post less.

So since you seem to know, how did HIV/AIDS come into existence? "It's the gays!!!"

Why do almost all YECs I see have serious problems saying what they really mean and/or comprehending what others say?
Gawad
4.2 / 5 (5) Jun 20, 2011
Gawad, any attempts to blame Catholics for AIDS is stupid.
Quite right! But blaming the US government and in particular the CIA is just as stupid FT.

I would possibly agree that the Pope is causing hardship to catholics by not allowing catholics to use birthcontrol

Awwww, man, so close, so close to a breakthrough!

AIDS would not exist and would be eliminated if men would not participate in homosexual sex.
Arrrg! And yet so, so far away! And there's more...
progressive humanistic belief that people should have sex whenever and with whomever they want IS the cause of not only AIDS but every other STDs around
Pure fantasy NotThinking. Bible Belters are among the worst vectors of STDs. Read it and weep:

http://www.cdc.go...STDs.htm

Christians ... are not responsible for the millions of needless deaths
Relax, I wasn't blaming you personally. Just the Vatican :)
Gawad
4 / 5 (4) Jun 20, 2011
How easily Progressive humanists and all those who promote free sex can blame catholics and christians for the deaths they directly cause is indicative of how morally corrupt they are.

Oh, FT, I love the moral superiority bit.

Still needs work though. I think you could have thrown in one or maybe even two biblical references in there, you know, to add a little weight to the accusation and give it a little more punch. Nothing too long though, that would just make our eyes glaze over. Just citing chapter and verse would probably have done it. Besides, it would help reinforce your ceds as a moral authority. And remember to really hit the "rupt" in "corrupt" while hammering your fist on, well, whatever peice of furniture happens to be handy. Yeah, that's it. There you go. Beautiful.
freethinking
1 / 5 (4) Jun 21, 2011
Keep telling the lie Gawad, you and those that promote free sex are the cause of people dying.
Skultch
5 / 5 (5) Jun 21, 2011
those that promote free sex are the cause of people dying.


Support it or be appropriately dismissed.

How did HIV/AIDS come into existence? You said:

AIDS would not exist and would be eliminated if men would not participate in homosexual sex.


So, explain how sex creates or modifies a virus.

I doubt you can, because you would have to invoke evolution, which of course you won't. Did ghod do it, then? Have some reason why it would? Is that reason more or less convoluted than evolution theory, which of course is supported by multiple fields of independent study, much unlike your singular source.
Gawad
4 / 5 (4) Jun 21, 2011
Humm. Are you saying that I cause people to die for no particular reason (are you suggesting I have some kind of superpowers)? Or are you suggesting that I'm someone who promotes free sex? Ie, are you including me as 'you' with 'those' or are you thinking of us seperately and as killing people using different means?

If the former, could you please elaborate on the nature of the superpowers you seem to think I possess?

If the latter, please SHOW where I have promoted "free sex".

In any case, if you are referring to my blaming Vatican policies for contributing to AIDS death as a lie, in addition to having refered to it as stupid then I think you've quite proved yourself to be utterly deluded. It's reality. Take off the tin foil hat and deal with it.

Man, you are one fucked up Xtian scumbag to turn a call to *use condoms to reduce HIV transmission* into an accusation of promoting death. I hope your kids clue into what a hypocritical, biggoted guy you are before it's too late.