Study: Over 16-year span, Wisconsin teacher salaries lag private sector wages

Mar 02, 2011

New research by a University of Illinois expert in employment relations and labor economics shows that, for more than a decade, Wisconsin teacher salaries have fallen behind changes in the cost of living as well as wage growth in the private sector.

Craig A. Olson, a professor of labor and employment relations, says the salaries of Wisconsin teachers have lost ground to those of their private sector counterparts over the last 16 years.

The paper compares the earnings of an average college graduate employed in the private sector in the U.S. versus the earnings of an average college-educated teacher in Wisconsin through public data from 1995 to the present.

Olson's analysis shows that, after accounting for inflation, the average private sector college graduate saw weekly earnings increase by 10 percent from 1995 to 2009. By contrast, the average teacher in Wisconsin saw salary decline by 10 percent, not counting fringe benefits.

"Not only did Wisconsin teachers not keep up with inflation, their earning power also fell behind their private-sector counterparts," Olson said.

In 1995, the average college educated private sector worker in the U.S. earned 17 percent more than a Wisconsin teacher; in 2009, this gap had increased to 36 percent, according to Olson's research.

Olson's research also discovered that while the salaries of public sector workers have not risen dramatically, expenditures on their benefits, especially health insurance benefits, have increased. In Illinois, the average inflation-adjusted premium for a family health insurance policy for Illinois teachers increased from $5,758 to $10,905 from 1993 to 2008.

Not surprisingly, health insurance premium costs for the private sector also have risen sharply during that time, increasing from $5,742 in 1999 to $13,770 in 2010, adjusted to 2009 prices.

Faced with rising health insurance costs, Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker has argued that Wisconsin public employees should be required to pay higher premium co-payments to match the higher co-payments paid by employees in the .

"Obviously, Gov. Walker's argument misses a key point about how health insurance premiums and employee co-payments influence other employment outcomes such as wages," said Olson, who also is a professor of economics at Illinois.

An analysis of Illinois teacher wages and health insurance premiums from 1993 to 2008 that Olson is working on with Darren Lubotsky, a professor of economics and of labor and employment relations at Illinois, shows that in districts or time periods when premiums went up the most, teachers, through their local unions, typically accepted lower salary increases or agreed to higher teacher premium co-payments when compared to districts that faced smaller increases in premiums.

Olson applies these results to Wisconsin to suggest that through the collective bargaining process, Wisconsin teachers protected their health benefits when premiums were rising rapidly by accepting lower wage increases.

According to Olson, the budget bill in Wisconsin will likely have unintended consequences that have not been considered in the rush to pass the bill.

"My rough calculations of the changes in employee pension and health benefit contributions required under the proposal suggest the changes will cost the average Wisconsin teacher about $5,000 in total compensation," he said. "This reduction in total compensation is equal to about 10 percent of the salary for an average Wisconsin teacher. Since salary increases under the bill are limited without a voter referendum to changes in the cost of living, teachers will have great difficulty negotiating higher pay to offset these higher contributions."

While these changes will save Wisconsin school districts some money in the short term, Olson says it's likely to have a serious adverse impact on the quality of the state's teacher workforce.

"Obviously, it will make it more difficult for Wisconsin to attract high quality young adults into teaching," he said. "What parent in Wisconsin would encourage their child to become a given the trends of the last 16 years and Gov. Walker's proposal?"

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MorganW
2.8 / 5 (9) Mar 02, 2011
I think not counting the "fringe benefits" gives a pretty biased picture. One of the benefits of working for the government was traditionally supposed to be sacrificing wages for job security.
When one leaches their income off of producers (which is what ALL government employees do - I'm not making a moral judgement here), one should not be able to dictate the terms of their employment to their employers (here I AM making a moral judgement). Nor should one FORCE membership upon all job seekers, then confiscate dues from them in order to support political parties that will legislate in your favor (payback) while campaigning against those who don't. Especially when politicians are making promises that they can't keep, with someone else's money.
rwinners
5 / 5 (4) Mar 03, 2011
Actually, what this study says is that, when compared to private sector employees, public sector employees have seen their salaries decline as their benefits have increased. This is not the case in the private sector.
J-n
5 / 5 (5) Mar 03, 2011
What is funny is that most people complaining about the Teacher situation in Wisconsin forget that the teachers union regularly agrees to concessions in wage and benefits that are proposed by the state government. The union has actually offered a cut that goes BEYOND what Scott Walker has proposed.

The issue here has NOTHING to do with the state budget, and EVERYTHING to do with politics.

Even if Scott Walker was truly opposed to ALL state employee unions, why isn't he going after the Fire or Police unions? I would guess it's because they are historical supporters of the Republican parties, (even though they too Leach their income off of producers).

J-n
5 / 5 (5) Mar 03, 2011
Too bad people forget the huge tax rebate we had a few years ago here in Wisconsin... it would completely cover our current budget shortfalls. Then again that's the Neo-Con/Teaparty way... give tax breaks, then when the budget is short the next year cut social programs that benefit the poor.
Too bad the middle class is too focused on fighting eachother for dwindling resources instead of focusing on the HUGE tax breaks we gave to the top 2%.
(Sarcasm) I'm sure everyone agrees though the jobs they've (the top 2%) recently created with that money (which would put a HUGE dent in the current federal budget shortfalls btw) has really helped the current economic situation. (/sarcasm)

sungarnyc
4 / 5 (4) Mar 03, 2011
"...When one leaches their income off of producers (which is what ALL government employees do - I'm not making a moral judgement here), one should not be able to dictate the terms of their employment to their employers..."

I don't know what is meant here by a "producer." Is a prosecuting attorney a "leach," and a defense attorney a "producer"? Is a teacher in a public school a "leach," and a teacher in a private school a "producer"? And how about an engineer designing a fighter jet for Boeing, under contract with the Air Force? Is this worker a "producer," because she works for Boeing, or a "leach," because without the Air Force's money, the job wouldn't exist? Calling public sector workers "leaches," and comparing them to the "producers" in the private sector sounds great, but even a cursory examination shows that it's just rhetoric; it doesn't actually mean anything. This isn't a moral judgment--it's a political statement disguised as a tautology.
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (10) Mar 03, 2011
"In 2007-08, the average annual base salary of regular full-time public school teachers ($49,600) was higher than the average annual base salary of regular full-time private school teachers ($36,300)."
http:/nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=55
ennui27
5 / 5 (3) Mar 03, 2011
"In 2007-08, the average annual base salary of regular full-time public school teachers ($49,600) was higher than the average annual base salary of regular full-time private school teachers ($36,300)."
http:/nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=55


Interesting site there .... I would like to see some comparison of the qualifications of the public school pedagogical staff and that of 'private schools'. Went all about your site and was unable to fins one.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (9) Mar 03, 2011
". On September 30, 1988, Dr. Peavey testified before the Compulsory Education Study Committee of the Iowa Legislature on the subject of teacher qualifications, citing numerous studies. He stated:

May I say that I have spent a long career in developing and administering programs for teacher certification. I wish I could tell you that those thousands of certificates contributed significantly to the quality of childrens learning, but I cannot.... After fifty years of research, we have found no significant correlation between the requirements for teacher certification and the quality of student achievement. "
"The quality of learning provides the only valid measure of the quality of teaching we have yet discovered "
"Some of the worst teachers Ive ever seen are highly certified. Look at our public schools. Theyre full of certified teachers. "
http:/www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000002/00000214.asp
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (10) Mar 03, 2011
"Two-thirds of the eighth graders in Wisconsin public schools cannot read proficiently according to the U.S. Department of Education, despite the fact that Wisconsin spends more per pupil in its public schools than any other state in the Midwest."
"the reading abilities of Wisconsin public-school eighth graders had not improved at all between 1998 and 2009 despite a significant inflation-adjusted increase in the amount of money Wisconsin public schools spent per pupil each year."
"Wisconsin public schools increased their per pupil expenditures from $4,956 per pupil in 1998 to 10,791 per pupil in 2008. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics inflation calculator the $4,956 Wisconsin spent per pupil in 1998 dollars equaled $6,546 in 2008 dollars. That means that from 1998 to 2008, Wisconsin public schools increased their per pupil spending by $4,245 in real terms yet did not add a single point to the reading scores "
http:/www.cnsnews.com/news/article/two-thirds-wisconsin-public-sch
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (10) Mar 03, 2011
"white students in Texas perform better than white students in Wisconsin, black students in Texas perform better than black students in Wisconsin, Hispanic students in Texas perform better than Hispanic students in Wisconsin. In 18 separate ethnicity-controlled comparisons, the only one where Wisconsin students performed better than their peers in Texas was 4th grade science for Hispanic students (statistically insignificant), and this was reversed by 8th grade. Further, Texas students exceeded the national average for their ethnic cohort in all 18 comparisons; Wisconsinites were below the national average in 8, above average in 8."
"instead of chanting slogans in Madison, maybe it's time for Wisconsin teachers to take refresher lessons from their non-union counterparts in the Lone Star State."
http:/iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2011/03/longhorns-17-badgers-1.html
J-n
5 / 5 (5) Mar 04, 2011
SAT scores from 2010

3 Wisconsin 595 604 579 1778

45 Texas 484 505 473 1462

Yeah, 3rd in the nation for SAT scores versus 45th in the nation... We CAN learn a lot from texas.. There's much further down the list we can go.

Yes we spend more on our students... they're also smarter.
sunstone
3.7 / 5 (6) Mar 05, 2011
Union Busting for political gain..pure and simple.
ryggesogn2
1.4 / 5 (9) Mar 05, 2011
Union Busting for political gain..pure and simple.

How is this any different than the unions who coerce dues from their members for political gain?
Skeptic_Heretic
4.2 / 5 (5) Mar 05, 2011
Union Busting for political gain..pure and simple.

How is this any different than the unions who coerce dues from their members for political gain?

Unions who coerce dues from their members are simply adhering to YOUR free market ideals. "Charge what the market will bear."

However the employees can simply leave the profession, thus busting a corrupt union without political coersion.

Why are you advocating a statist interference in the union market Mr. Swenson?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Mar 05, 2011
What free market? State laws force people to be members of a union for certain jobs and are forced to pay dues. THIS IS statist inference. I support the END of such statist interference.

A free market response is indicated by auto companies opening new factories in right-to-work states.

Skeptic_Heretic
3 / 5 (2) Mar 05, 2011
A free market response is indicated by auto companies opening new factories in right-to-work states.
No, that would be the corporatist response, however, I think all states should be right to work in order to limit the potential overwhelming of balance by undue union regulation.
ennui27
3.5 / 5 (2) Mar 06, 2011
Now I am confused ..... (a frequent thing) I goggled SAT scores by state and find that Texas's average score is
507 math, 492 in critical reading and 482 in reading - with a participation rate of 52.

While Wisconsin's results for the same trio are: 598, 587, and 595 - with a participation rate of 6.

http://www.usatod...le_N.htm

Maybe I do not understand the figures, but that is a long ways from what has been quoted here ....
gwargh
5 / 5 (2) Mar 06, 2011
Now I am confused ..... (a frequent thing) I goggled SAT scores by state and find that Texas's average score is
507 math, 492 in critical reading and 482 in reading - with a participation rate of 52.

While Wisconsin's results for the same trio are: 598, 587, and 595 - with a participation rate of 6.

http://www.usatod...le_N.htm

Maybe I do not understand the figures, but that is a long ways from what has been quoted here ....

2010 has been quoted here, and you are looking at 2007 data. Confusion averted?
Mesafina
5 / 5 (1) Mar 06, 2011
I am not a fan of compulsory union membership. However I support the right of workers to organize into any kind of organization they choose to try and improve their compensation. I definitely do not support union busting, but I would support a law that eliminated compulsory union membership if that was the ONLY thing it eliminated.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Mar 06, 2011
I definitely do not support union busting, but I would support a law that eliminated compulsory union membership

That's union busting according to the unions.
Eliminating payroll deductions for dues is considered union busting. Imagine, people having to pay their dues directly. What do unions have to fear?
ennui27
not rated yet Mar 06, 2011
I am not a fan of compulsory union membership. However I support the right of workers to organize into any kind of organization they choose to try and improve their compensation. I definitely do not support union busting, but I would support a law that eliminated compulsory union membership if that was the ONLY thing it eliminated.


Not sure what you mean here, Mesa ..... I know that union dues are deducted from non-union members under the idea that if ya get da benefits, ya gotta pay the dues - but it is not compulsory to join the union.

I know that some employers go through the union hiring hall to get workers .... for longshore work and a lot of construction people, but no one says anyone has to join the union.

I have been a union supporter for many years and I agree with you .... it should not be compulsory to join anything as a condition of employment.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Mar 06, 2011
"Organized labor wants workers to think they can be forced to join a union as a condition of continued employment. "
"Unions routinely try to use those clauses to dupe workers into thinking that full membership in good standing can be compelled."
"In the 1963 case NLRB v. General Motors Corp., the Court said that required membership is limited to its financial core. That means that the only thing a union can require of the workers it represents is the payment of union dues and initiation fees. No other obligations of membership in good standing can be imposed."
"a worker could be compelled to pay only that portion of union dues and initiation fees used for collective bargaining, contract administration, and grievance procedures. No worker can be compelled to pay dues for such things as politics, lobbying, and union organizing. "
"Department of Labor refuses to enforce the Supreme Court decisions "
http://www.thefre...bership/
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Mar 06, 2011
If a non-union employee is forced to pay union dues by having those dues taken from his paycheck, how easy is it for him to get a legal refund for the funds that are above and beyond collective bargaining costs?
WI and other states want to end payroll deductions for union dues. A non-union member would then be able to pay only for the portion required by law.
In the end, even with socialists, it is always about the money. Unions don't want to give back any money and I suspect they are reluctant to separate and report their political costs from their collective bargaining costs. If unions have politicians who won't enforce federal law, they have as much to fear as the illegal aliens have to fear from unenforced laws.
ennui27
5 / 5 (3) Mar 06, 2011
So one Union in one state tried to make membership mandatory and get struck down by a court.

Yet you and this professor Baird (a member of Milton Freeman organization) begin with two quotes that imply that all unions try the same thing .....

Interesting that Prof. Baird seems to be a good buddy of the famous Koch brothers through the CATO (libertarian) Institute- remember them ... the inspiration for Gov. Scott of Wisconsin and financiers of the tea parties.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Mar 06, 2011
So one Union in one state tried to make membership mandatory and get struck down by a court.

Yet you and this professor Baird (a member of Milton Freeman organization) begin with two quotes that imply that all unions try the same thing .....

Interesting that Prof. Baird seems to be a good buddy of the famous Koch brothers through the CATO (libertarian) Institute- remember them ... the inspiration for Gov. Scott of Wisconsin and financiers of the tea parties.

Unions are subject to federal laws which are referenced.
If the content is in error, point it out.
Billionaire Soros and many others( Gates, Buffet) promote socialism, govt control of the economy from which they benefit economically. Koch bros. are members of a small group that promote limited govt and free markets from which they, and everyone else benefits from economic growth and prosperity. If you want to start down that path, we can.
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (3) Mar 06, 2011
Billionaire Soros and many others( Gates, Buffet) promote socialism, govt control of the economy from which they benefit economically.
How exactly would they benefit from socialism Mr Swenson? You must explain such an outrageous claim.
Koch bros. are members of a small group that promote limited govt and free markets from which they, and everyone else benefits from economic growth and prosperity.
That's nonsense. The Koch brothers are leading members of one of the largest global conglomerates and practice monopolistic business in the coal fuel industry.
If you want to start down that path, we can.
You won't last long. AFP, CATO, and several other shitholes of deluded ideological failure are owned by the Koch's. You won't have a source to pull your data from that isn't easily defeated as biased and paid for from your usual bag of dirty quotemines.
ennui27
5 / 5 (1) Mar 06, 2011
"Unions are subject to federal laws which are referenced."

Slightly off topic but not completely - I see Federal Judge David Doty has slapped down that group of billionaires that own NFL teams.

They had an ace in the hole going into negotiations with the players as the TV Networks were contracted to pay them even if there was no football. Something they negotiated a couple of years ago - they even reduced the cost to televise the games in order to get them to sign on to it.

OOPs - whereas the NFL players are compensated on the basis of league income, that means they had bargained with them 'in bad faith last year. The no-game-compensation is declared illegal and 'ain't gonna happen'.

Schadenfreude is always pleasurable.

http://www.boston...oty.html
ryggesogn2
1.6 / 5 (7) Mar 06, 2011
SH, Obama appointed the CEO of GE to some economic board and the govt is promoting 'green' technologies GE has a part of.
Soros makes money on govt controlled foreign exchange.
The govt has thousands of regulations that control businesses, which SH supports wholeheartedly.
Unfortunately many businesses support such regulation to control their competition. That's why the big four meat packers supported the FDA.
GM and Chrysler are still in business thanks to socialism.

SH, you have made many accusations about the Koch Ind. All sources I have found you may have used are all funded by Soros or some other socialist.

Bastiat, Adam Smith, de Tocquville, von Mises, Hayek were not funded by the Koch brothers.
ryggesogn2
1.6 / 5 (7) Mar 06, 2011
How Soros and others benefit from socialism:
"George Soros -- whom we're always told is not serving his own economic interests at all by promoting liberal politicians and big-government policies -- is launching a new investment fund that plans to profit off of the "green energy" boom, which is entirely dependent on government subsidies supported by the groups Soros funds.

The press release casually mentions whom Soros is hiring to run this new fund: Cathy Zoi. As Cadie Thompson at CNBC's NetNet (edited by my brother John Carney), puts it,

Zoi was Barack Obama's "Acting Under Secretary for Energy and Assistant Secretary for Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy." An Al Gore acolyte, Zoi was Obama's point-woman on subsidizing green tech. Now she's going to work for George Soros to profit off of subsidized green tech.

If you remember Zoi's name, it's because of another green-tech conflict of interest: Zoi's husband is an executive at a window company, Serious Windows, which the White
ryggesogn2
1.6 / 5 (7) Mar 06, 2011
the rest of the story:
""Ms. Zoi is married to Robin Roy, a top executive at Serious Materials, a privately held manufacturer of 'sustainable green building materials' located in California. On the Executive Branch Personnel Public Financial Disclosure submitted by Ms. Zoi to the White House Ethics office as part of her confirmation, Ms. Zoi disclosed ownership with her spouse of 120,000 vested and unvested stock options in Serious Materials, a company her office regulates and that she may profit from."

Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://washington...Fsvg3XUq

And don't forget how Al Gore,and others, profited from carbon credits.
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (2) Mar 07, 2011
SH, you have made many accusations about the Koch Ind. All sources I have found you may have used are all funded by Soros or some other socialist.
So now you're reading my mind in advance?

Seeing how poor your reading skills are in general, I greatly dispute that you would even be able to comprehend the thoughts of anyone other than perhaps a simple canine.

You still have not answered the question. How would Soros, Gates, and Buffet benefit from socialism? You've produced examples of corporatism, which is the exact opposite of socialism. The only difference is, the examples you produced are in contrast to the will of your dark corporate overlords.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Mar 07, 2011
How would Soros, Gates, and Buffet benefit from socialism?


I just showed you how Soros benefits from govt control of economy, aka socialism.

If the govt did not engage in legal plunder as described by Bastiat, if the govt limited its authority to negative law, Soros could not gain favor or corrupt the govt.
But this is exactly what SH has indicated he supports given his support and defense of Bastiat's 'positive' law.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Mar 07, 2011

"Taibbi first characterizes the corruption at Goldman Sachs as an inevitable result of "free markets and free elections," then argues that it was made possible by "the aid of a crippled and corrupt state." So, which is it? The free markets or the state-sanctioned corruption? These are entirely different arguments and they must be carefully treated as such.
I will be the first to argue against the state aiding and abetting corporations. Among the advocates of the laissez-faire system, there is a clear understanding that such aid is corporatism or corporate socialism."

http://mises.org/daily/3761

Corporatism is another flavor of socialism.

The statists here blame those evil corporations for corrupting those noble govt servants and call it corporatism.

"most people see the puppet but overlook the puppet master"
The puppet master is the govt.
J-n
5 / 5 (2) Mar 07, 2011
Now I am confused .....

Maybe I do not understand the figures, but that is a long ways from what has been quoted here ....


It's been mentioned but i was using up-to-date stats. Here in Wisconsin most of our students take the ACT (another area we're above Texas in scores)because most Midwestern schools prefer ACT scores.

---

For all of those who are Anti-Union, pro Scott Walker.. I ask this...

Why are the police and fire unions not being busted up? They are funded by the state, and have EXCELLENT benefits, and also use collective bargaining to increase their pay, use union dues collected from all to fund political parties (In this case they supported scott walker, maybe an answer to my question..).

Still no one asks why when we have these huge budget shortfalls (states, and federally) we aren't going back and un-doing the huge tax breaks we gave the rich (states and federally) a few years ago... instead of reducing programs that help the poor?

J-n
5 / 5 (2) Mar 07, 2011
I THOUGHT we were the land of upward mobility, where the rich give some of their earnings to educate the poor, and to give them the assistance they need to move up.

Remember the last time we had such a wide gap between what the rich make and what the poor make, it was RIGHT before the Great Depression.

Rampant unfettered capitalism CREATED our current situation. Just because these things differ from your personal political views does not mean they aren't true.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) Mar 07, 2011
unfettered capitalism CREATED our current situation.

NO!
Unfettered capitalism is an oxymoron.
Competition, consumers and investors are the market forces that regulate capitalism.
The current economic situation, as with the Great Depression, were caused by govt interference with market forces.
Does everyone understand that the US Federal govt, through through their government sponsored 'enterprises' guaranteed bad mortgages? Govt subsidies and guarantees are socialistic and that is what caused and is causing the present economic challenges.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) Mar 07, 2011
"So how does brokeass, dumbass, redneck Texas stack up against progressive unionized Wisconsin?

2009 4th Grade Math

White students: Texas 254, Wisconsin 250 (national average 248)
Black students: Texas 231, Wisconsin 217 (national 222)
Hispanic students: Texas 233, Wisconsin 228 (national 227)

2009 8th Grade Math

White students: Texas 301, Wisconsin 294 (national 294)
Black students: Texas 272, Wisconsin 254 (national 260)
Hispanic students: Texas 277, Wisconsin 268 (national 260)..."

http://iowahawk.t...s-1.html
kaasinees
2.7 / 5 (7) Mar 07, 2011
I THOUGHT we were the land of upward mobility, where the rich give some of their earnings to educate the poor, and to give them the assistance they need to move up.

Thats called socialism. Thats called tax. The republicans are against taxing rich people, widening the gap every year.
ennui27
5 / 5 (2) Mar 07, 2011
" ..... govt control of economy, aka socialism."

If you think that government control of the economy equates to socialism ..... then I must suggest you understand neither the economy nor socialism.

ennui27
not rated yet Mar 07, 2011
Here are the SAT scores for 2010 - it still does not explain the figures quoted here.

The first number is rank among the states ..... Wisconsin #3, Texas # 45.

Rank State Critical Reading Math Writing Combined Participation Rate
.
1 Iowa 603 613 582 1798 3%
.
2 Minnesota 594 607 580 1781 7%
.
3 Wisconsin 595 604 579 1778 4%

as for Texas .....

45 Texas 484 505 473 1462 53%

http://www.common...by-state
ryggesogn2
1.5 / 5 (8) Mar 07, 2011
I THOUGHT we were the land of upward mobility, where the rich give some of their earnings to educate the poor, and to give them the assistance they need to move up.

Thats called socialism. Thats called tax. The republicans are against taxing rich people, widening the gap every year.

How many people from around the world are trying to sneak into the USA to experience upward mobility?
The cost to 'educate' each WI public school student is now ~$10,000. As noted above, TX spends much less and has better results.
How much wealth should be confiscated to educate? Are there no limits or measures of effectiveness? The only beneficiaries of the current unlimited spending are the teachers, not the students.
ryggesogn2
2 / 5 (8) Mar 07, 2011
1 Iowa ( $9,520 ) 603 613 582 1798 3%
2 Minnesota ($10,048 ) 594 607 580 1781 7%
3 Wisconsin ($10,791) 595 604 579 1778 4%
4 Missouri ($9,532) 593 595 580 1768 4%
5 Michigan ($10,075) 585 605 576 1766 5%
6 South Dakota ($8,535) 592 603 571 1766 3%
7 Illinois ($10,353) 585 600 577 1762 6%
8 Kansas ($9,883) 590 595 567 1752 6%
9 Nebraska ($10,565) 585 593 568 1746 4%
10 North Dakota ($9,324 ) 580 594 559 1733 4%

Based upon cost effectiveness, SD, IA and MN are doing much better than WI.
The cost in () is from: http://febp.newam...rankings
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) Mar 07, 2011
" ..... govt control of economy, aka socialism."

If you think that government control of the economy equates to socialism ..... then I must suggest you understand neither the economy nor socialism.


Bastiat, de Tocquville, Mises, Hayek and many others agree socialism IS government control of the economy.
J-n
5 / 5 (2) Mar 07, 2011
% of students going on to higher education directly after high school (2008, most recent numbers i could find)

Texas 56.9
Wisconsin 59.1

Better scores that matter to colleges (ACT/SAT)and better rates of graduates going on to college.

Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (3) Mar 07, 2011
How would Soros, Gates, and Buffet benefit from socialism?


I just showed you how Soros benefits from govt control of economy, aka socialism.

If the govt did not engage in legal plunder as described by Bastiat, if the govt limited its authority to negative law, Soros could not gain favor or corrupt the govt.
But this is exactly what SH has indicated he supports given his support and defense of Bastiat's 'positive' law.

You don't understand what socialism is. You need to parrot definitions from men who did grasp it, however you truncate and ignore the majority of what they've written.

You have surmounted the pinnacle of ignorance on this one.
TheGhostofOtto1923
3 / 5 (4) Mar 07, 2011
SAT scores from 2010

3 Wisconsin 595 604 579 1778

45 Texas 484 505 473 1462

Yeah, 3rd in the nation for SAT scores versus 45th in the nation... We CAN learn a lot from texas.. There's much further down the list we can go.

Yes we spend more on our students... they're also smarter.
Do they give SATs in spanish?

I support the right of workers to organize into any kind of organization they choose to try and improve their compensation
-And I assume you dont mean organizations such as the mob or the freemasons, who can and do provide that service?
http
://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-01-21/news/27096212_1_crime-family-dino-calabro-extortion

For entertainment purposes only:
http
://www.illuminati-news.com/070106b.htm
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Mar 07, 2011
% of students going on to higher education directly after high school (2008, most recent numbers i could find)

Texas 56.9
Wisconsin 59.1

Better scores that matter to colleges (ACT/SAT)and better rates of graduates going on to college.


How many students? TX I suspect has many more so TX, with lower costs fewer unions, send MORE students to university. How many major universities are their in TX? More than WI.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Mar 07, 2011
If WI teachers have to buy their own viagra, will they demand a salary increase?

"The Milwaukee teachers union has dropped a lawsuit seeking to get its taxpayer-funded Viagra back.

The union sued in July 2010 to force the school board to again include the erectile dysfunction drug and similar pills in its health insurance plans."
http://host.madis...73e.html

Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (1) Mar 08, 2011
How many students? TX I suspect has many more so TX, with lower costs fewer unions, send MORE students to university. How many major universities are their in TX? More than WI.
And a far higher dropout rate, higher teen pregnancy rate, higher unemployment rate, and if it wasn't for the Governor snagging as much stimulus money as he could while stating he wasn't going to take a dime of it, a higher debt as well.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Mar 08, 2011
Total Students:
TX: 241,193
WI: 63,968

White drop out rate (%):
TX: 1.9
WI: 1.3

Black drop out rate(%):
TX: 5.8
WI: 7.8

Hispanic drop out rate (%):
TX: 5.6
WI: 5.2

Asian/Pacific Islander drop out rate:
TX: 1.5
WI: 1.9

American Indian:
TX: 2.9
WI: 5.1

"Far higher dropout rate"?
Yes for WI black and American Indian students.
Overall, TX does a better job with non-white students.

Unemployment rates: ND: 3.8%, WI: 7.7%, TX: 8.3%, MA: 8.3%, CA: 12.5%

Net migration: TX: 143,000 in 2009; 838,000 2000-2009
WI: -5672 in 2009; -11,981 2000-2009.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Mar 08, 2011
"But Wisconsin demonstrates that people who put their economic fate in the governments hands dont get safety; they get screwed. They simply trade the cruel vagaries of the market for the cruel vagaries of politics whose risks they have even less control over. Why? Because the government does not play by the same rules that apply to mere mortals in the private sector."
"the government eventually either runs out of other peoples money or it becomes politically untenable to keep raiding their pockets or both"
"in sharp contrast to the private sector where a court can step in and force companies to liquidate their assets to at least pay off their secured debtors. But it cant force a state government to, say, sell public parks or golf courses or roads, to make good on its obligations"
http://reason.com...isconsin
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Mar 08, 2011
The best part for last:
"Competition and the rule of law check individual greed in the market. These mechanisms are not perfect, but at least they exist. Government, on the other hand, is an unregulated monopoly that sets its own rules and enforces them as and when it sees fit. Wisconsins public unions can hardly complain if it changes the rules mid-game. After all, they are the ones who decided to play with it in the first place."

http://reason.com...isconsin
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (2) Mar 08, 2011
The best part for last:
"Competition and the rule of law check individual greed in the market. These mechanisms are not perfect, but at least they exist. Government, on the other hand, is an unregulated monopoly that sets its own rules and enforces them as and when it sees fit.
If that's the best part, then your entire argument is akin to raw sewage.

Without government, what does the law look like Mr. Swenson?

As to the whole WI vs TX here's the stat you omit, Mr Swenson.

Texas total metriculation rate: 61.3
WI total metriculation rate: 85.2

So that means that Texas will have 147851 students graduate while WI will have 54500. So let's put this in comparitive numbers jsut to drive the point home. In WI 8.5 out of 10 students will graduate high school, while in TX only 6.1 out of 10.

Keep lauding Texas, we'll keep laughing at you.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) Mar 08, 2011
Net migration: TX: 143,000 in 2009; 838,000 2000-2009
WI: -5672 in 2009; -11,981 2000-2009.

People in WI are voting with their feet.
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (1) Mar 08, 2011
Net migration: TX: 143,000 in 2009; 838,000 2000-2009
WI: -5672 in 2009; -11,981 2000-2009.

People in WI are voting with their feet.
Source your stats.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Mar 08, 2011
Net migration: TX: 143,000 in 2009; 838,000 2000-2009
WI: -5672 in 2009; -11,981 2000-2009.

People in WI are voting with their feet.
Source your stats.

Ever hear of the US Bureau of the Census?
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (1) Mar 08, 2011
Net migration: TX: 143,000 in 2009; 838,000 2000-2009
WI: -5672 in 2009; -11,981 2000-2009.

People in WI are voting with their feet.
Source your stats.

Ever hear of the US Bureau of the Census?

Provide a link to your source please.
ennui27
5 / 5 (2) Mar 08, 2011
Fer-get-it, SH ..... whenever you demonstrate one of his arguments is false he will come up with some other bit of blather and Prufrock like say "...that's not what I meant, that's not what I meant at all".

Too much time reading the wit and wisdom of Glenn Beck will do that to you.
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (2) Mar 08, 2011
Too much time reading the wit and wisdom of Glenn Beck will do that to you.
I'm not trying to enlighten him, I'm trying to ensure that anyone who reads his commentary isn't swayed to his viewpoint without a complete picture of the situation.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Mar 08, 2011
Net migration: TX: 143,000 in 2009; 838,000 2000-2009
WI: -5672 in 2009; -11,981 2000-2009.

People in WI are voting with their feet.
Source your stats.

Ever hear of the US Bureau of the Census?

Provide a link to your source please.

I don't lie like SH does.
If SH wants to find the data, he can look for himself.
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (2) Mar 08, 2011
I don't lie like SH does.
If SH wants to find the data, he can look for himself.
Already did. Surprisingly absent from each instance I checked.

Interestingly enough, when was the last Census Mr. Swenson?

The data I'm viewing at the moment gives the rise in population overall from year to year. htp://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/GCTTable?_bm=y&-geo_id=01000US&-_box_head_nbr=GCT-T1&-ds_name=PEP_2009_EST&-_lang=en&-format=US-40&-_sse=on
just for the record.

So what I see here is a steady increase in the population of both states. Wisconsin climbing at a yearly average of 30,000 people, and Texas at a rate of 380,000 per year. Of course, Texas also has 5x the population of WI. For a state with 5x the population you'd expect them to show about 5x the increase in population assuming reasonably equal population reproduction. But even with far higher emmigration, WI is only .5% off the mark from Texas.

Explain that.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Mar 08, 2011
I don't lie like SH does.
If SH wants to find the data, he can look for himself.
Already did. Surprisingly absent from each instance I checked.

Interestingly enough, when was the last Census Mr. Swenson?

The data I'm viewing at the moment gives the rise in population overall from year to year. htp://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/GCTTable?_bm=y&-geo_id=01000US&-_box_head_nbr=GCT-T1&-ds_name=PEP_2009_EST&-_lang=en&-format=US-40&-_sse=on
just for the record.

So what I see here is a steady increase in the population of both states. Wisconsin climbing at a yearly average of 30,000 people, and Texas at a rate of 380,000 per year. Of course, Texas also has 5x the population of WI. For a state with 5x the population you'd expect them to show about 5x the increase in population assuming reasonably equal population reproduction. But even with far higher emmigration, WI is only .5% off the mark from Texas.

Explain that.

You need better research skills.
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (2) Mar 08, 2011
You need better research skills.
So you can't. Well that's fine, I didn't expect you to be able to do math, especially when all the data is right in front of you.

How about you provide your source so we can practice researching it. Or are you upset that you were caught lying again, oh *sad face*.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Mar 08, 2011
Cumulative Estimates of the Components of Resident Population Change for the United States, Regions, States, and Puerto Rico: April 1, 2000 to July 1, 2009 (NST-EST2009-04)

You need to work on your research skills.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Mar 08, 2011
""It's the government sector worker who's the new elite, the highest-paid worker on the block," said David Gregory, who teaches labor and employment law at New York's St. John's University.

For instance, most non-uniformed public employees who have worked in New Jersey for 30 years with an ending salary of $85,000 can look forward to retiring at 55 with an annual pension of about $46,000. Working until age 60 and a salary of $90,000 can bring a pension of $57,000. And many of the New Jersey's public-sector retirees have no or low premiums for their health insurance. "
http://www.cnbc.c...41965569

Please, keep up the protests.
ennui27
not rated yet Mar 08, 2011
I am not an American, and have not even played one on TV, but in Canada the government is constantly doing survey of the compensation of employees of different job sectors before they go into negotiations with the unions. Based on that they come up with a comprehensive package.

The unions the same thing - and that is one of the reasons that 99.0% of all contracts are signed without rancor.

If someone is making $90 a year for doing a job, they probably have some outside qualifications(a special license) and are in some kind of supervisory position.

I fear to compair that to a bar tender in Cherry Hill (and know some bar tenders in Cherry Hill)is an apples and oranges situation.

As for health insurance premiums .... in Canada I gotta ask ... what are they?
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (3) Mar 08, 2011
""It's the government sector worker who's the new elite, the highest-paid worker on the block," said David Gregory, who teaches labor and employment law at New York's St. John's University.
Avg government worker makes somewhere in the area of 45,000 a year. Grade 3 I think that is.
For instance, most non-uniformed public employees who have worked in New Jersey for 30 years with an ending salary of $85,000 can look forward to retiring at 55 with an annual pension of about $46,000.
In lieu of social security which they can't collect, with cursory medical benefits in most cases.
Working until age 60 and a salary of $90,000 can bring a pension of $57,000.
For select jobs.
And many of the New Jersey's public-sector retirees have no or low premiums for their health insurance.
Which they trade greater potential wealth for security. Life is a trade off.
Please, keep up the protests.
Oh we will.
ryggesogn2
1.6 / 5 (7) Mar 09, 2011
As for health insurance premiums .... in Canada I gotta ask ... what are they?

Do you know what an MRI is in Canada? I hear there is a long waiting list.
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (2) Mar 09, 2011
As for health insurance premiums .... in Canada I gotta ask ... what are they?

Do you know what an MRI is in Canada? I hear there is a long waiting list.

Avg wait for an MRI in Canada is 2 months to 9 weeks, then again, it's free up there. Down here, what's the cost of an MRI comparitively? In the area of $2000 cash US if you don't have insurance.
ryggesogn2
1.6 / 5 (7) Mar 09, 2011
As for health insurance premiums .... in Canada I gotta ask ... what are they?

Do you know what an MRI is in Canada? I hear there is a long waiting list.

Avg wait for an MRI in Canada is 2 months to 9 weeks, then again, it's free up there. Down here, what's the cost of an MRI comparitively? In the area of $2000 cash US if you don't have insurance.

Hope those people who had to wait didn't die waiting.
Modernmystic
3 / 5 (8) Mar 09, 2011
SAT scores from 2010

3 Wisconsin 595 604 579 1778

45 Texas 484 505 473 1462

Yeah, 3rd in the nation for SAT scores versus 45th in the nation... We CAN learn a lot from texas.. There's much further down the list we can go.

Yes we spend more on our students... they're also smarter.


Very superficial look. Let's look a bit closer

In 2009 Vermont spent the most and was ranked 30th in SATs. Utah spent a third per pupil what they did and ranked 20th. Iowa beat everyone in SATs and was smack in the middle of spending (25th).

More spending equals better education is a highly specious and false argument...
ryggesogn2
1.6 / 5 (7) Mar 09, 2011
In Brockton, MA, the administration improved their MA state test scores by requiring all teachers to correct for spelling, correct for grammar, and reinforce all the basics in all their classes.
Imagine, a chemistry teacher taking points off for spelling and punctuation in reports. What a concept! Even more amazing would be a chemistry teacher that could correct for spelling and grammar.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) Mar 09, 2011
"However, Kasper also added that the union was not solely responsible for the improvements, saying that the cooperation of individual teachers was more of a cause of the changes. "I think the union neither helped nor harmed in the Brockton case, but in so many other systems I do see the teachers unions as an impediment to progress," Kasper said."
http://www.welles....1691339
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (2) Mar 09, 2011
As for health insurance premiums .... in Canada I gotta ask ... what are they?

Do you know what an MRI is in Canada? I hear there is a long waiting list.

Avg wait for an MRI in Canada is 2 months to 9 weeks, then again, it's free up there. Down here, what's the cost of an MRI comparitively? In the area of $2000 cash US if you don't have insurance.

Hope those people who had to wait didn't die waiting.

You mean like the 2 who did in Arizona when Brewer cut state aid?
ennui27
5 / 5 (3) Mar 09, 2011
Hope those people who had to wait didn't die waiting.

You mean like the 2 who did in Arizona when Brewer cut state aid?

Shades of Sarah P's death panels ... but when the doctor judges that a case is particularly serious that person gets to jump the line.

If that person is on East Armpit Saskatchewan and a local MRI is unavailable, the Medicare system will pay for that person to go to the US - where illness does not matter - but $$$ does.

Given 1/10 of the population there are some places where some services re not available, but no one goes bankrupt from medical bills.
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (3) Mar 09, 2011
Given 1/10 of the population there are some places where some services re not available, but no one goes bankrupt from medical bills.
Plus Mr. Swenson disregards the fact that once someone goes bankrupt, either they or their descendants become dependent on the welfare systems in a majority of cases. He hates the poor, thinks they're lazy, when the reality is probably closer to a model of wage slavery induced by the US Healthcare model.
ennui27
5 / 5 (2) Mar 09, 2011
Plus Mr. Swenson disregards the fact that once someone goes bankrupt, either they or their descendants become dependent on the welfare systems in a majority of cases. He hates the poor, thinks they're lazy, when the reality is probably closer to a model of wage slavery induced by the US Healthcare model.

Slightly OT - but speaking of slave labour, did you know that the famous Patriot Missiles are made using convict labour - who get compensated at rates as low as .23 an hour.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Mar 09, 2011
Patriot Missiles are made using convict labour

Where was this?

Why is no one in the US govt, or in the MA govt that implemented 'Obamacare' trying to do anything to lower the cost of care?
Any attempt to use market forces to lower costs are opposed.
The health care costs and university costs both have been increasing at rates beyond any inflation and both are heavily subsidized by the US govt.
Flat screen TVs are not subsided, anymore, and their costs fall and quality improves.
ennui27
5 / 5 (2) Mar 09, 2011
Well - when you are dealing with a criminal organization like Pfizer (the largest fine ever levied for fraudulent marketing - $2.3 billion) - and that pays it's leaving CEO something in the neighbourhood of $10 million would be one good way to reduce drug costs .....

http://www.busine...3433.htm

http://www.nytime...zer.html

certainly much better than reducing the care given to the elderly and poor. The old and infirm are not the ones driving up the costs .... it is the greed of the management.
ennui27
5 / 5 (2) Mar 09, 2011
I will be glad to help you with your research skills ..... first try goggle ... and see ,,,

http://www.wired....issiles/

Try prisoners an Patriots.
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (2) Mar 09, 2011
Patriot Missiles are made using convict labour

Where was this?
Here:htp://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/03/prisoners-help-build-patriot-missiles/ Why is no one in the US govt, or in the MA govt that implemented 'Obamacare' trying to do anything to lower the cost of care? They're trtying, but federal/locl legislation driven by conservatives prevents them from doing so.
Any attempt to use market forces to lower costs are opposed.
Not true in the least. Hence why Deval Patrick (D) created provisions allowing for cash only clinics.
The health care costs and university costs both have been increasing at rates beyond any inflation and both are heavily subsidized by the US govt.
Of course you're upset about education and health care. If people aren't dumb or dead, you're upset.
Flat screen TVs are not subsided
Wrong.
and their costs fall and quality improves.
Prove it.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) Mar 09, 2011
Hence why Deval Patrick (D) created provisions allowing for cash only clinics.

Has Tom Menino allowed CVS to open clinics in there stores?
Why companies need the governor's permission to open a cash medical clinic?
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (2) Mar 09, 2011
Hence why Deval Patrick (D) created provisions allowing for cash only clinics.

Has Tom Menino allowed CVS to open clinics in there stores?

Because of the law, idiot. If you want to mount a disagreement on a particular law, go for it, but if you want to randomly cite problems, with absolutely no evidence providing information as to the detriment or benefit of the law, then go sit in the corner and play with yourself.
Why companies need the governor's permission to open a cash medical clinic?
Well they don't need permission. They need to conform to the law, which they don't want to do when ti comes to having vaccinations administered by certified professionals.

Would you prefer a minimum wage heroine junky administer your yearly flu shot?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Mar 10, 2011
So Menino still won't allow CVS to open clinics in their stores.

More prison contracts:

"Federal Prison Industries, Washington, D.C., was awarded a $19,767,468 firm-fixed-price contract March 4, 2011. The award will provide for the procurement of Outer Tactical Vests for Pakistan. Work will be performed in Yazoo City, Miss., with an estimated completion date of Oct. 15, 2011. One sole-source bid was solicited with one bid received. The U.S. Army Contracting Command, Aberdeen Proving Ground, Md., is the contracting activity (W91CRB-08-D-0045).

http://www.unicor...Catalogs

Would you prefer a minimum wage heroine junky administer your yearly flu shot?

He should know how to inject the vaccine. BTW, it is not that difficult to stick a needle into a shoulder and push the plunger. Diabetics do it all the time.
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (1) Mar 10, 2011
So Menino still won't allow CVS to open clinics in their stores.
Then stop electing him.
More prison contracts
Go ahead and call them what they really are, industrial slavery.
He should know how to inject the vaccine.
Just as a perpetrator of robbery should know security systems. That doesn't mean I want him to install one in my home.
BTW, it is not that difficult to stick a needle into a shoulder and push the plunger. Diabetics do it all the time.
Great, that doesn't make all diabetics certified RNs.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Mar 10, 2011
Go ahead and call them what they really are, industrial slavery.

Your socialist govt at work.

A 4 year degree RN is required to inject a vaccine?
J-n
5 / 5 (1) Mar 10, 2011
Someone who is competent AND certified needs to administer vaccines. There are several reasons.

1. There actual medical related questions that need to be asked at each Vaccine (they need to verify if you are healthy, etc)

2. While you may not think the training is important the training they get allows them to answer, with actual knowledge, questions that those getting the vaccine may ask.

3. If something goes wrong, IE the patient was actually sick, did not know they had an egg allergy, etc.. there is someone with a certification at risk.. an average joe on the street might loose their job.. an RN might loose their certification.

J-n
not rated yet Mar 10, 2011
I would not trust an average joe on the street to give me an injection. (Do they know the difference between an H1N1 injection and a flu vaccine? Do they know the injection site, the needle gauge, how much to inject, what to look for and how to identify if there is an alergic or other type of reaction? Did they attempt to find out if I was ill in a way that would negatively affect my ability to use the vaccine? ETC)...

You mean to tell me that a simple job like being a fireman requires that i go to school? I mean really.. you just pour water on the fire.. Damn Socialists...
ennui27
5 / 5 (1) Mar 10, 2011
You mean to tell me that a simple job like being a fireman requires that i go to school? I mean really.. you just pour water on the fire.. Damn Socialists...


How about serving as EMTs? That is a branch of fire fighters: untrained people going into fires would relieve you of a great many socialist, as they would be killed/injured at a great rate. Indeed - the death/injury rate among fire fighters is far higher than among the Police.

Note that 343 fire fighters were killed at the WTC - while 23 NYPD and 37 Port Authority Police.

http://nymag.com/...bers.htm
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (2) Mar 10, 2011
You mean to tell me that a simple job like being a fireman requires that i go to school? I mean really.. you just pour water on the fire.. Damn Socialists...
I would strongly suggest you do not fight hygroscopic chemical, oil based, or electrical fires with water.
ennui27
5 / 5 (2) Mar 10, 2011
You mean to tell me that a simple job like being a fireman requires that i go to school? I mean really.. you just pour water on the fire.. Damn Socialists...
I would strongly suggest you do not fight hygroscopic chemical, oil based, or electrical fires with water.


Correct-oh-mondo Sh I spent 15 years as a fire team member in oil refineries - it is not something to undertake without extensive training.
J-n
5 / 5 (3) Mar 10, 2011
Just for clarification:


You mean to tell me that a simple job like being a fireman requires that i go to school? I mean really.. you just pour water on the fire.. Damn Socialists...


This was meant in a sarcastic tone: I fully understand the WHY a firefighter would need to go to school. I also fully understand why we would want people who administer vaccinations be fully educated as well. :) I guess I don't understand why someone would not want both groups to know EXACTLY what they're doing.

I don't understand why we wouldnt want the BEST and BRIGHTEST teaching our kids.. I would also think that if people wanted the best educated kids, and understood a free market economy that they'd be all for paying teachers as much as possible to attract the best and brightest talent to teach the next generation.
ennui27
5 / 5 (2) Mar 10, 2011
Just for clarification:


You mean to tell me that a simple job like being a fireman requires that i go to school? I mean really.. you just pour water on the fire.. Damn Socialists...


This was meant in a sarcastic tone: I fully understand the WHY a firefighter would need to go to school. I also fully understand why we would want people who administer vaccinations be fully educated as well. :) I guess I don't understand why someone would not want both groups to know EXACTLY what they're doing.

I don't understand why we wouldnt want the BEST and BRIGHTEST teaching our kids.. I would also think that if people wanted the best educated kids, and understood a free market economy that they'd be all for paying teachers as much as possible to attract the best and brightest talent to teach the next generation.


Sorry J-n ... gotta retune my scarcasm monitor.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (6) Mar 10, 2011
I would also think that if people wanted the best educated kids, and understood a free market economy that they'd be all for paying teachers as much as possible to attract the best and brightest talent to teach the next generation.

The best and brightest teachers don't want to work for the govt schools because their unions won't reward the best and brightest. The teachers themselves, via their union, reward time in service, not performance.
The taxpayers DO want to hire the best, reward the best and fire the worst, but the unions and the politicians do not.

"Teacher of the year fired in Lincoln Park due to budget issues "
"She was in the school district for two years, which put her shy of earning tenure, "
http://www.northj...ts_.html
Skeptic_Heretic
2 / 5 (1) Mar 10, 2011
"Teacher of the year fired in Lincoln Park due to budget issues "
"She was in the school district for two years, which put her shy of earning tenure, "
http://www.northj...ts_.html
Yes, thanks to your buddy Christie. You were lauding such actions not 5 days ago. How ignorant are you?
The taxpayers DO want to hire the best, reward the best and fire the worst, but the unions and the politicians do not.
Then eliminate tenure. That is the only delineating factor between the two groups.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Mar 10, 2011
Then eliminate tenure. That is the only delineating factor between the two groups.

I am all for eliminating tenure in all school systems.

Christie cut the budget, the school's union fired the teacher of the year.
GSwift7
2.5 / 5 (4) Mar 11, 2011
Sitting here in South Carolina, one of the worst school systems in the country, and especially sitting here in the city of Orangeburg, one of the worst school districts in South Carolina, I would like to weigh in on this. I know lots of teachers, and they all say just about the same thing. I have two principals and four teachers in my close family, and they all say the same thing. Money can make better education, if it is spent on the kids. Too much is wasted on administration, useless teacher training, useless assessment reports and tests which are often redundancies from different state/fed agencies, requirements that schools keep specialist staff members for special needs children, special programs for at-risk children/families, (special needs and at-risk programs could be consolidated in stead of redundant staff at each school/district). Teacher wages and benefits aren't the problem. Fix the problems, which lie at the school board level, not in the classroom.
GSwift7
1 / 5 (1) Mar 11, 2011
As for the above article, I'd have to say that when you do wage comarisons you have to make sure you only compare apples to apples. There are a couple of peculiar things about the way they presented their statistics. Skeptic, you are very good at analyzing and understanding this kind of article. Would you care to guess which parts of the above article I think require a little bit of cautious reading? Just to be clear, I'm on the teacher's side in this. I just don't like the way this article comes accross. If the evidence/findings are really conclusive, couldn't they have presented the numbers in a way that doesn't leave so many places where a skeptic could pick at the details? For instance, they compared non-matching time periods in one case, and they changed from percent to raw dollars half way through. That's an obvious sign that something is fishy in any article, science or otherwise.
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (5) Mar 11, 2011
G, a local radio host said his mother is a teacher in FL. She is required by the principle to give students a score of 50/100 even if they do not turn in the assignment.
GSwift7
1 / 5 (1) Mar 11, 2011
G, a local radio host said his mother is a teacher in FL. She is required by the principle to give students a score of 50/100 even if they do not turn in the assignment


I hope you don't mind a little tongue in cheek humor: I think it is horrifying that the teacher might be doing such a poor job that the kid didn't deserve a 100. Why set such a low goal when they could make that minimum score a 100? Of course then you have to be fair to the kids who do actually turn something in, even if it's just a dirty sock, and give them all a 110 or something.

My daughter had a class last semester where there wasn't an option of failing to turn in an assignment. They had to sit with a teacher at lunch time and make up any assignment they failed to turn in. This semester her teacher for that block doesn't believe in homework. Isn't that great?

Her chorus teacher gives everyone a 99 because all voices are good but none are perfect. I like that one too. :(
Thrasymachus
2 / 5 (4) Mar 11, 2011
The biggest problem with a literal comparison of public teacher wages with private sector wages comes from the fact that school's only in for 9 months of the year. To get a fair comparison, you have to decide whether it's fair to compare monthly wages for a teacher while school's in session to monthly wages in the private sector, or whether you should take the annual salary for the teacher and divide by 12, and compare that to the monthly salary for the private worker. Then, of course, there's the corrections that have to be made for level of education and seniority in their positions. Teachers as a group tend to have more seniority in their jobs than private sector workers with equivalent educations because private sector workers move around to new jobs more often before they settle down.
GSwift7
1 / 5 (1) Mar 11, 2011
Continued:

In the end, keep in mind that grades are not a good measure of what the kids are learning, so I don't really care if she gets a automatic 99 in chorus or how many points they give her for an assignment. What I do care about is that they teach her whatever was supposed to be learned from that assignment, and that they make good use of school time while the kids are there. When my daughter tells me that she needs a magazine to take to school because they are supposed to stay quiet for two days while the teacher grades finals in class time, that pisses me off. I ask my kid a lot of questions about what she does in school, because I think I make a bigger difference in whether my kid learns than the teacher does, so I get a pretty good feel for who are good teachers and who are not. As with a lot of other public jobs, complacency is a big problem for teachers. They just don't generally have good daily performance measures and standards like you have in mfg or sales.
J-n
5 / 5 (1) Mar 11, 2011
The biggest problem with a literal comparison of public teacher wages with private sector wages comes from the fact that school's only in for 9 months of the year.


Should we then also offset for the fact that any teacher i've ever had or known has worked over 12hours a day for those 9 months a year.. often much more.

Think about this, a teacher grading a 3 page paper may spend 30 min on each paper they are grading. 30 min X 30Students per class (VERY low estimate) X 6 classes per day. 30X30=900 900X6=5400 5400/60= 90hours JUST grading that one assignment.

Even if it's only 10 min per paper that's still 30 hours for 1 assignment. I seem to recall getting more than one assignment per week in most of my classes in middle and high school..

Im certainly no math wiz.. but it seems to me that 70hrs+ per week for 9months a year beats 40hrs a week 12 months a year in hours worked, no?
GSwift7
1 / 5 (1) Mar 11, 2011
The article above isn't about teaching or learning though. It's about money and it's about politics. Neither side is innocent either, so you guys who are taking such slanted one-sided opinions about this probably need to try to see both sides for the imperfect people they are. If you trust either a politician, a business exec, or a union leader then you have way too much faith in your fellow man.
J-n
5 / 5 (1) Mar 11, 2011
I ask my kid a lot of questions about what she does in school


Do you, like most, get the "nothing" reply? I know that i often replied to the question "What did you do at school today" with "Nothing" even though i went to one of the top public high schools in all of Wisconsin (granted it was a few(many) years ago).
J-n
5 / 5 (1) Mar 11, 2011

One question that i have personally thought about a lot is how do we measure Teacher Performance... Do we judge teachers on how the students do? How do we compare a teacher then in the suburbs who deals with the kids of folks who have the time and desire to make it to the PTO meetings, and Conferences to the teachers who teach primarily inner-city children who's parents may not even know/care if the kids went to school that day?

If not judging on how the students do, how do we accurately judge how a teacher performs?

How do we judge how a Firefighter does their job or a Police officer? Do we compare them to their peers saying "You arrested less people therefore you are not a good officer"?

Remember in Wisconsin Walker did not apply the same standards to the Fire and Police unions, only the teachers union.
GSwift7
1 / 5 (1) Mar 11, 2011
Do you, like most, get the "nothing" reply?


Yes, that's what I mean about making good use of class time. However, people talk about the schools needing more money, but I can point to my daughter who sits in the same classes as her classmates, but she's headed for either West Point, Annapolis or The Citadel, then law school, while some of her classmates won't graduate. I guess that's because of school funding problems or bad teachers, right?

By the way, I'm a full time single father with a full time job.
J-n
not rated yet Mar 11, 2011
My point was that the "Nothing" reply usually means that the kid does not want to talk about what they were taught in english class while they could be watching TV, Chatting with their friends, or well.. really anything else.

From what i know, and what i've experienced, Student success is a combination of mostly Student Effort, Parental support, and school/teacher quality.

None of those items, though, can be properly quantified. So how can we really even say if this teacher is better than the other down the street?

Again back to the topic at hand though:

NONE of these issues had anything to do with the decision scott walker made to remove collective bargaining rights from the Teachers union here in Wisconsin.

1. Police and Fire unions (who contribute to the republicans) were not subject to the same removal of rights.
2. Teachers agreed to concessions FAR beyond what Scott Walker requested in terms of Salary and Insurance cuts.
GSwift7
1 / 5 (1) Mar 11, 2011
My point was that the "Nothing" reply usually means that the kid does not want to talk about what they were taught in english class while they could be watching TV, Chatting with their friends, or well.. really anything else


Oh, sorry. I took it the other way. Silly text conversations.

Well, I solve the "i dunno" problem by spending leisure time with my kid. I'll let her play video games in the evening, but I'll take turns at Modern Warfare with her and get her to gossip about her classmates, teachers and coaches. That always leads into serious discussion about what she's having trouble with (either socailly or accademically) and what she's proud or excited about too. Then I can coach her or congratulate her. Many parents just don't spend an hour talking to their kids. It's easy for the kid to give the "i dunno" answer when the conversation only lasts five minutes or less.
J-n
not rated yet Mar 11, 2011
I agree the REAL solution to smarter kids is better parents. Unfortunately we aren't able to solve that at a governmental level.

We can though make sure that when other parents come around to being involved with their kids education, that the teachers are willing and able to assist and change in the ways that parents see their kids need.

The ONLY reason i could see to lowering teacher wages and salary's is if for many years we had been the top in the world for education, and we just didn't need as much quality in teaching.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Mar 11, 2011
It was suggested that teachers should be paid a percentage of the salaries their students eventually earn.
A small percentage of their students' salary for ten years could be quite a sum if the teacher did a good job.
ennui27
5 / 5 (1) Mar 11, 2011
It was suggested that teachers should be paid a percentage of the salaries their students eventually earn.
A small percentage of their students' salary for ten years could be quite a sum if the teacher did a good job.


All depends upon how you define 'education'. If you limit yourself to a $$$ criteria, you are speaking of something else than the usual definition.

Even religious schools will tell you they would rather produce sincere members of their denomination than a batch of millionaires.
Skeptic_Heretic
not rated yet Mar 12, 2011
The biggest problem with a literal comparison of public teacher wages with private sector wages comes from the fact that school's only in for 9 months of the year. To get a fair comparison, you have to decide whether it's fair to compare monthly wages for a teacher while school's in session to monthly wages in the private sector, or whether you should take the annual salary for the teacher and divide by 12, and compare that to the monthly salary for the private worker. Then, of course, there's the corrections that have to be made for level of education and seniority in their positions. Teachers as a group tend to have more seniority in their jobs than private sector workers with equivalent educations because private sector workers move around to new jobs more often before they settle down.

But you also have to look at the specialization in their field, and the cost of child care/day care as well. Then there's the fact they don't work 8 hour days, it's closer to 16 or 18 hour
ennui27
not rated yet Mar 12, 2011
The biggest problem with a literal comparison of public teacher wages with private sector wages comes from the fact that school's only in for 9 months of the year. To get a fair comparison, you have to decide whether it's fair to compare monthly wages for a teacher while school's in session to monthly wages in the private sector, or whether you should take the annual salary for the teacher and divide by 12, and compare that to the monthly salary for the private worker. Then, of course, there's the corrections that have to be made for level of education and seniority in their positions. Teachers as a group tend to have more seniority in their jobs than private sector workers with equivalent educations because private sector workers move around to new jobs more often before they settle down.


Donno about individual school boards ... but the ones I have worked for negotiate contracts on a 10 month working year. The pay periods are stretched out over an entire year.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Mar 12, 2011
"The single-largest category of public-sector workers are K-12 teachers (there's more than 3 million). Nationally, they make on average $14,000 a year more than private-school K-12 teachers, a gap that gets even bigger when benefits are added to the total. "
"Surveys by the Bureau of Economic Analysis show that public workers annual compensation salary plus benefits is higher on average than private sector workers, and they suggest that the gap is growing....Public workers also put in significantly fewer hours per week. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, their compensation per hour is much higher....Most of the advantage is in benefits. They cost state and local governments $14 an hour on average, about 70 percent more than private employers pay for their workers."
http://reason.com...t-the-cu
Skeptic_Heretic
not rated yet Mar 12, 2011
You should actually read the data, and not the opinion of someone who is misrepresenting the data.

For example: http://nces.ed.go..._075.asp
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Mar 12, 2011
Public teacher avg: $53,230
Private teacher avg: $39,690
Delta: $13540
What misrepresentation?
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (1) Mar 13, 2011
Public teacher avg: $53,230
Private teacher avg: $39,690
Delta: $13540
What misrepresentation?

See the footnotes that indicate that the income is total income and not necessarily from the public funds?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Mar 13, 2011
Then compare base salaries:
Public: 49630
Private: 36250
delta: 13380

What misrepresentation?

Job outside the school system during the school year:

Public: $5,260
Private: $5,910
Delta statistically insignificant. Not all teachers had a job outside school system.

ennui27
not rated yet Mar 13, 2011
Then compare base salaries:
Public: 49630
Private: 36250
delta: 13380

What misrepresentation?

Job outside the school system during the school year:

Public: $5,260
Private: $5,910
Delta statistically insignificant. Not all teachers had a job outside school system.


Been away for a bit ..... my first reaction upon seeing those figures is that just because some places underpay their employees, does that mean everyone should?

I would like to see some figures on the academic qualification of these private sector teachers - if they are that dumb they would rather work at poorly paying private teaching factories, I wonder if I want them handling my chid. or perhaps it is that they just cannot, for some reason, make it in the public schools.
ryggesogn2
1.8 / 5 (5) Mar 13, 2011
ennu, look at the data.

But it detracts from the assertion that public teachers are under payed.

BTW, universities around the country don't pay TAs very well yet people spend significant tuition $$ to education our children. Do you trust TAs to do their job?
ennui27
not rated yet Mar 13, 2011
ennu, look at the data.

But it detracts from the assertion that public teachers are under payed.

BTW, universities around the country don't pay TAs very well yet people spend significant tuition $$ to education our children. Do you trust TAs to do their job?


Several times I have look at YOUR data only to find I was being misled by yours doctrinaire cherry picking - no thank you to accepting at YOUR data.

As for university TAs: the ones I know are there temporarily, waiting for full times positions - learning their teaching craft. I have worked in industrial plants that have been built by 20% apprentice labour, your navy sails about build with a component of apprentice labour .... I have no problem with TAs. (but you are correct - they should be paid more.)
ennui27
not rated yet Mar 13, 2011
That being said - It has been my experience that private school staff are paid much lower than public.

Mostly because private school pedagogical staff cannot, for one reason or another, cannot get a job in the public.

That they are paid less is no testament to their capabilities/qualifications/experience.
GSwift7
1 / 5 (1) Mar 14, 2011
It doesn't matter whether they have collective bargaining or not really. You are all making too big a deal out of it. I moved here from Kansas City. I lived on both the Missouri and Kansas side of the border. Kansas is a right to work state, no collective bargaining. Missouri is a union state. Kansas schools are better by far. Kansas teachers get paid better by far. Collective bargaining doesn't mean that the teachers get paid; it means that the unions get paid. I live in South Carolina now, and the teachers here get paid well too, though this is also a right to work state. The schools here suck though. So, wages and school quality do not depend on collective bargaining. This is all about whether you think the teachers should have the right to decide if they want to be in the union or not. That's the only real issue here. I've been in a union before, and I personally don't like what it does to the workplace or what I got for my dues. I think it's a rip-off that only benefits the union.
GSwift7
1 / 5 (1) Mar 14, 2011
continued:

If you are looking at it from the political angle, then you have a point, but only if you think it's a good thing for the democratic party to get so much money from the unions. They have to get money from somewhere, so it's just a question of who controls the purse strings I guess. Do teachers actually run the teachers union?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Mar 14, 2011
Several times I have look at YOUR data only to find I was being misled by yours doctrinaire cherry picking - no thank you to accepting at YOUR data.

It't not my data, its govt data. You don't trust US govt data?
GSwift7
2.3 / 5 (4) Mar 14, 2011
It't not my data, its govt data. You don't trust US govt data?


I'm not disagreeing with you, but I can't help pointing out the humor in that question. The official govt data says that the cost of living hasn't gone up. The EPA says that the Clean Air Act has saved trillions of dollars. State lotteries claim to give millions to schools. My point is that it is possible to dispute just about any data if you want to be picky enough. Odds are that you are arguing with someone who has a vested interest in this subject and you will not convince them that they do not need unions. Numbers don't matter compared to emotions.

You are arguing against the moral position that teachers are good and that public school teachers are better than other teachers. Anything "against" public school teachers is bad. period. end of discussion.
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (2) Mar 14, 2011
You are arguing against the moral position that teachers are good and that public school teachers are better than other teachers. Anything "against" public school teachers is bad. period. end of discussion.
THe funniest piece is that he's arguing that people are not inherently good on all fronts of his commentary, then he has the sack to insist that totally unregulated anarchistic forms of capitalism are good because people are inherently good.

He's the master of bullshit contradictions.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Mar 14, 2011
I can't help pointing out the humor in that question.

Those supporting the claim that public teachers are underpaid tend to be 'liberal' and support and defend a massive govt.
A 'liberal's' rejection of govt data that refutes his beliefs is amusing.
GSwift7
1 / 5 (1) Mar 15, 2011
I think it is only a matter of time till the public school system begins to privatize. Kansas privatized their department of family services and it is working out so well that it has become a model for other states. I worked for one of the contracting agencies as did my girlfriend at the time, so I'm speaking from first hand experience there. It would be possible for a state to hire a private contractor to administer the schools, just like kansas did with social services. Whatever the answer is, I think everyone agrees that what we are doing now is broken, so SOMETHING has to change. From talking to relatives who are teachers and principals (two in Ohio), they all agree that it is not good when you can't fire a public worker who doesn't do their job, and they would prefer to get paid more but just have normal benefits like everyone else.
Modernmystic
3 / 5 (4) Mar 16, 2011
Watch "Waiting for Superman" if you have any illusions about what unions have done to the quality of public education.

Quite possibly they've done more damage to our civilization than any other single causal factor. This generation will be the first to be less literate than the previous...
GSwift7
2.5 / 5 (2) Mar 16, 2011
Quite possibly they've done more damage to our civilization than any other single causal factor. This generation will be the first to be less literate than the previous


Based on history, it's likely that our civilization will end somewhat like previous democratic cultures. We will continue to vote ourselves more and more free stuff until we reach the point that we can't pay for it all. We aren't there yet, despite the national debt, because we aren't past the point of no return. We can still pay off our debt because the interest doesn't excede our capacity to pay it back yet. We're getting closer though. Health care is a good example of how people think they are entitled to good care whether they can afford it or not. Simple truth is that not everyone can afford an organ transplant, bone/joint replacement, months of bed care, etc. Maybe teachers get paid too much too.

In summary, I'd say that democracy is the single biggest causal factor damaging our culture. Ironic.
ennui27
3.7 / 5 (3) Mar 16, 2011
Watch "Waiting for Superman" if you have any illusions about what unions have done to the quality of public education.

Quite possibly they've done more damage to our civilization than any other single causal factor. This generation will be the first to be less literate than the previous...


You mean it was the unions that took references to slavery out of school books and replaced it with Atlantic Triangular Trade"? It was the unions that insisted that evolution be treated as another of many viable theories in Texas?

Nope to the GOP and their local minions ....
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (2) Mar 16, 2011
Based on history, it's likely that our civilization will end somewhat like previous democratic cultures. We will continue to vote ourselves more and more free stuff until we reach the point that we can't pay for it all.
What culture did that? The end state of most democracies is subjugation by a tyrant who expands the borders to an unsustainable limit and then the economic well being of the enpire fails.

Sound familiar?
This generation will be the first to be less literate than the previous...
Well they said that about the generation that just passed as well.
ennui27
5 / 5 (2) Mar 16, 2011
"This generation will be the first to be less literate than the previous... "

Don't suppose that incredible increases in tuition rates tending to make higher education a class distinction has anything to do with it?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Mar 16, 2011
"This generation will be the first to be less literate than the previous... "

Don't suppose that incredible increases in tuition rates tending to make higher education a class distinction has anything to do with it?

Have you noticed that when the govt subsidizes, costs rise?
Govt subsidizes medical care, medical costs explode.
Govt subsidizes student loans for college, tuition rates soar and universities spend millions on expansion.
The govt does not subsidize personal computers. PCs become more powerful and useful as costs drop.
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (1) Mar 16, 2011
Have you noticed that when the govt subsidizes, costs rise?
Then perhaps the govt should stop subsidizing oil, coal, natural gas, and agriculture.

FYI: all the technological advances in your home PC were subsidized in part or in whole by the US govt along with many other Govts. Remember NASA, Mr. Swenson?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Mar 16, 2011
Then perhaps the govt should stop subsidizing oil, coal, natural gas, and agriculture

No argument there.

When did NASA subsidize the PC?
Now the govt is buying GPUs from the gaming industry.
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (1) Mar 16, 2011
Then perhaps the govt should stop subsidizing oil, coal, natural gas, and agriculture

No argument there.

When did NASA subsidize the PC?
Ever heard of the Apollo project?
Now the govt is buying GPUs from the gaming industry.
Relevance?
ennui27
5 / 5 (1) Mar 16, 2011
[Have you noticed that when the govt subsidizes, costs rise?
Govt subsidizes medical care, medical costs explode.
Govt subsidizes student loans for college, tuition rates soar and universities spend millions on expansion.
The govt does not subsidize personal computers. PCs become more powerful and useful as costs drop.


Speak for the US, not here ....the cost of Canada for it's medical system is far, far less than that of the US (as it is in all countries with Medicare systems). Universities in the US, (private companies) have outrageous tuitions .... about three times what they are here (except McGill which is now being disciplined).
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Mar 16, 2011
Universities in the US, (private companies) have outrageous tuitions ..

Students are subsidized by govt loan programs.
Most universities are state funded.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Mar 16, 2011
Then perhaps the govt should stop subsidizing oil, coal, natural gas, and agriculture

No argument there.

When did NASA subsidize the PC?
Ever heard of the Apollo project?
Now the govt is buying GPUs from the gaming industry.
Relevance?

"Take Intel's venerable 8086 for example -- you might know it better as "x86". Released in 1979, just a decade after Apollo 11's trip to the Moon, the 8086's cousin, the 8088, formed the basis for the IBM PC we all know and love. When the IBM PC "XT" was released in 1981, the lowest end configuration had 8 times more memory than Apollo's Guidance Computer -- 16k, vs the Apollo's 2k. The read-only storage of the AGC was 32k, "http://downloadsq...omputer/
GPU relavance? Private market forces are driving computer development, not govt.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Mar 16, 2011
"At the introduction the HP 9100 at the IEEE show [Electro] in March of 1968, Bill Hewlett, Barney Oliver and I gave a private showing to An Wang. Wang Laboratories had one of the best calculators on the market and the HP 9100 was obviously going to seriously affect their position."http://www.hp9825...ory.html
"In August 1961 NASA awarded the Draper Laboratory, then the MIT Instrumentation Laboratory, a contract to design and develop the Apollo guidance, navigation and control system. "
http://www.draper...per.html
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (2) Mar 16, 2011
Two posts proving my point.

Ready to say that govt subsidies work in some cases and not in others?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Mar 16, 2011
What point? The PC was developed by HP, a private company.

In the 50s, there was a need for a missile guidance system to drop a nuclear weapon on Moscow. The govt funded development of those systems for a specific national defense requirement.
In the early 60s, Lockheed Martin designed a the first Ti airplane, the SR-71, for national defense.
Many defense technologies were either classified or restricted. One of those was the multi-plexing technology that enabled cell phones.
"Now, after a 50-year battle with the military, the FCC, and powerful commerical radio interests, spread spectrum is poised to become the solution for high-bandwidth, wireless communications."http://www.thinkc...bad-boy/

When the govt decides it wants to push (subsidize) a technology without a market onto the public like solar power it fails. Solar cells were created to power communications satellites, a market need. Same for most Apollo technology. It was created to meet a need.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Mar 16, 2011
Another 'subsidy' that fails economically to to artificially raise the price of, say, gasoline to stimulate alternatives.
Europe has had high fuel taxes for decades. How many electric cars were created in those decades?
The high taxes failed to create market alternatives, but it did raise more revenue for the govt.
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (2) Mar 17, 2011
The HP 9100A was released after the SRI PC demo. It was also sold as a programmable calculator, not a personal computer.

SRI should be familiar to you. It's the Stanford Research Institute spinoff funded directly by DARPA.

So that's post number 3 proving my point.

Keep posting.
Skeptic_Heretic
3 / 5 (4) Mar 17, 2011
By the way. Non-Americans, tell me what country this sounds like.

The top elected official is trying to gain the right to declare an emergency and appoint officials who have the powers to break and void contracts, terminate people's jobs, seize and sell assets, and remove elected officials from office.

Sound like Nazi Germany? Putin's Russia? Milosevic's Yugoslavia?

Try Michigan, USA.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Mar 17, 2011
The US president has broken and voided contracts with the takeover of GM and Chrysler. Federal govt officials fired the elected officials of those companies WITHOUT asking for special permission.

Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (2) Mar 17, 2011
The US president has broken and voided contracts with the takeover of GM and Chrysler. Federal govt officials fired the elected officials of those companies WITHOUT asking for special permission.
Neither of those assertions are factual.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Mar 17, 2011
"The Obama administration used the threat of withholding more bailout money to force out General Motors Corp. Chief Executive Rick Wagoner "
"The clearest losers appear to be the thousands of bondholders and lenders to both GM and Chrysler. "
http://online.wsj...077.html
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (2) Mar 18, 2011
"The Obama administration used the threat of withholding more bailout money to force out General Motors Corp. Chief Executive Rick Wagoner "
So the administration said if you don't clean up your board, we're not going to loan you any money.

Sounds an awful lot like banking to me. At no point in time is that the move of a takeover.
GSwift7
1 / 5 (1) Mar 21, 2011
By the way. Non-Americans, tell me what country this sounds like.

The top elected official is trying to gain the right to declare an emergency and appoint officials who have the powers to break and void contracts, terminate people's jobs, seize and sell assets, and remove elected officials from office.

Sound like Nazi Germany? Putin's Russia? Milosevic's Yugoslavia?


That's a horribly distorted view. He's trying to take control of a government agency, (public schools are a government agency) funded by public money under the support of the majority of voters there, and he's trying to bring the state back to the right to work status they had there a few years ago, before those government agencies were taken over by socialists and unions (a change much more like your Stalinist or Fascist examples).
GSwift7
not rated yet Mar 21, 2011
continued:

If you are suggesting that the State government (governor's office or state legislature) should not control the public schools, then who do you suggest? Are you saying that public schools should be privatized? If so, then I strongly agree. The public school administrators are proven by every case study to be incompetent, in every State, in comparrison to private schools (K-12). There are exceptions to that generalization, as always, but the vast majority of public schools are extremely poor at budget management and the systems that allow them (force them?) to be so inept need to be reformed before they can improve. Teachers' unions are one piece of the problem; silly state and federal budgeting rules are the other side of the coin. There's a move here in SC to get things back on track, but since we're already right-to-work, it's not a headline grabbing change. I'd be willing to bet SC will be a pioneer in vouchers or something similar. We're headed that direction.
GSwift7
not rated yet Mar 21, 2011
continued again, sorry:

Our new state superintendant is ex-military (Retired General)and he's looking to kick some tail. He wants major reform, starting with his own office and going down, rather than starting with the teachers. It's a much better method I think, so I should make it clear that I don't support the Wisconsin method 100%. Our new guy is creating a whole bunch of new charter schools, which basically replace the public schools and their inept boards and corrupt unions. That's the way to shake the tree and see what falls out. It scares the pants off of the school boards, but teachers love them. Most charter schools have waiting lists of both students and teachers trying to get in (some are founded by independant teacher groups and universities, and even community grass roots groups sometimes).

That's a pretty clear message. My daughter's district is one of the best in the state, so no charter school there, but the town I work in needs them badly.
J-n
5 / 5 (2) Mar 21, 2011
Scott walker and those like him will destroy what little is left for the middle class.

Joe Doe from Anywhere, USA goes to college and gets himself a degree. He is looking to his future and wondering what he's going to do for a living. He likes the thought of being a teacher, so he looks up teacher salaries, and realizes that even after benefits it would be much less than what he would make working at a local business. So instead of getting his teachers license, he just goes and works somewhere else.

If we want the best and brightest teaching our kids... we have to pay them.

Various teachers will start to realize that they are no longer in a profession that is respected, or paid decently, and they realize that their pay could be cut significantly due to political whims. So they spend their time now looking for a new job, wishing they weren't at work, and feeling abused and unappreciated at their job. This is not how you keep your employees happy and hardworking for any job.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Mar 21, 2011
Various teachers will start to realize that they are no longer in a profession that is respected,

Why would any professional need a union?
If you want the best and brightest teaching, close all university education departments and suspend state requirements for teacher certifications.
This recommendation was from a teacher.
Skeptic_Heretic
3.7 / 5 (3) Mar 21, 2011
Gswift,

That bill isn't in regard to schools. That is the bill that the Governor in Michigan is trying to pass in regards to ALL operations of state government. It is tyrannical.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Mar 21, 2011
Gswift,

That bill isn't in regard to schools. That is the bill that the Governor in Michigan is trying to pass in regards to ALL operations of state government. It is tyrannical.

It would be tyrannical if he did NOT ask for a bill.

Abdication of authority by legislators, Congress, etc. is what led to the problems in MI and in the US. Hayek wrote about England doing the same in the '30s in 'Serfdom, ch 5.
Vague, undefined laws are passed which are then further defined by the executive regulators. This is done because legislatures/congress are taking more power than than they can deal with and they create an 'urgency' for election purposes.
The MI gov should retract the bill, do what he can under existing laws. Fire people if needed, slash departments, etc. Let cities/counties go bankrupt if they must and the third branch and deal with the issue.
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (2) Mar 22, 2011
It would be tyrannical if he did NOT ask for a bill.
Hitler became the supreme commander of Germany through a bill passed through his body of congress. Would you say he wasn't a tyrant?
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Mar 22, 2011
It would be tyrannical if he did NOT ask for a bill.
Hitler became the supreme commander of Germany through a bill passed through his body of congress. Would you say he wasn't a tyrant?

I was just reading about how laws can violate the 'rule of law' in The Road to Serfdom.
In Hayek's view, Hitler followed the law, but the laws in Germany at that time had been following the socialist path, violating the concept of the rule of law.
These are the kind of laws SH supports. Capricious, arbitrary rules that attempt to direct certain political or economic outcome. These are Batiat's positive law.
The rule of law are negative laws that apply to all, equally and are not enacted to promote equal outcomes, but to protect equal opportunities.
MI is were it is because of decades of socialism and bad laws.
The gov of MI is wrong to support a law to grant him such power for the same reason Hugo Chavez was wrong to do so.
But if you are a populist, how do you stop the people?
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (2) Mar 22, 2011
Answer the question Mr. Swenson.
GSwift7
1 / 5 (2) Mar 23, 2011
Gswift,

That bill isn't in regard to schools. That is the bill that the Governor in Michigan is trying to pass in regards to ALL operations of state government. It is tyrannical


First, I can't believe you are making Hitler remarks. Bring your end of the debate up to my level. I will not stoop to yours.

Second, my point is still valid. The governor has the responsibility to manage the agencies of the State where he serves. He's not usurping any power here. He's pulling back the reigns on out-of-control spending. He is an elected official and he governs under the laws of that state in concert with the State Legislature and State Courts. I don't think he's going about this in the best way, as I said above, but your comparison to some kind of Orwellian Police State coup is rediculous. Forcing the teachers to join a Union and making all the teachers negotiate contracts as a group is more intrusive on their righs if you ask me. Unions don't help anyone these days.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Mar 23, 2011
Answer the question Mr. Swenson.

If Hitler was a tyrant at the time of his election, why did he need to be voted into office?
Tyranny manifests in many forms. Many of which SH supports and defends.
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (2) Mar 23, 2011
Tyranny manifests in many forms. Many of which SH supports and defends.
Keep it up tough guy. Baseless accusations will only end poorly for you, again.
First, I can't believe you are making Hitler remarks. Bring your end of the debate up to my level. I will not stoop to yours.

I am maintaining two conversations here. Mr. Swenson is unable to have rational discourse. You are not Mr. Swenson.
If you would like to discuss the Michigan bill then I'd be happy to do so. If you want to make assumptions of what is in the bill, or the intent of the bill, based on the bill in Wisconsin, then you are not operating on the level at which you think you are.q
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Mar 23, 2011
Baseless accusations will only end poorly for you, again.
Are you making threats again?
SH has acknowledged his support for the regulatory state and such accusations are not baseless.

I have stated the govt of MI is wrong to seek such power. He is no better than the legislators and members of Congress that pass vague bills that authorize executive branch to write the law creating much mischief and further empowering the state, like Obamacare.
Agencies like the FCC are no better than the what the gov of MI is asking for. A tyranny by committee is no different than a tyranny of one.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Mar 23, 2011
""If we could go out and identify another 40,000 people that were missed, and it brings us over the threshold of 750,000, that would make a difference from what we can get from the federal and state government," Mr. Bing said at a news conference Tuesday."
""We have got to make sure that our neighborhoods are safe, that they are growing, that we have good housing stock and make sure that people have the right services. All those things are very important at maintaining population.""
http://online.wsj...wsSecond
This is the mentality that is driving people out of the state.
What's important for maintaining population is a prosperous and growing economy.

Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (2) Mar 23, 2011
SH has acknowledged his support for the regulatory state and such accusations are not baseless.
State your evidence.
Agencies like the FCC are no better than the what the gov of MI is asking for
I'm so glad you brought up the FCC. You do realize why the FCC still censors network television, don't you? The morality laws demanded by people such as Mr. Swenson here are responsible. They claim the US govt will censor the internet. Well that's obviously bullshit. Progressives haven't censored anything, especially the Republicans. After all, it's the Republicans own statements that show them to be liars and shills for the money of the moment. Simply watch Newt Gingrich's commercial with Nancy Pelosi on combating climate change. Yes indeed.

Mr Swenson is merely amongst the minority of people, afraid of everything, especially anyone after his guns and property.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (5) Mar 23, 2011
State your evidence.

Of course all I have is your assertion you are a populist and your defense of the govt regulatory state.
But you did acknowledge lies in the past, so everything you claim is suspect.
But SH loves the FCC. He doesn't like TV rules but he loves internet rules. That's what happens when Congress enables a committed of tyrants.
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (2) Mar 25, 2011
But SH loves the FCC. He doesn't like TV rules but he loves internet rules. That's what happens when Congress enables a committed of tyrants.
What rules? Give us some specifics. You have that street preacher oration going, but just can't ever seem to nail down any form of specific line of inquiry.

One wonders if your head deflates a little each time you breathe out.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Mar 25, 2011
But SH loves the FCC. He doesn't like TV rules but he loves internet rules. That's what happens when Congress enables a committed of tyrants.
What rules? Give us some specifics. You have that street preacher oration going, but just can't ever seem to nail down any form of specific line of inquiry.

One wonders if your head deflates a little each time you breathe out.

You support the three FCC democrats Net Neutrality in spite of court and congressional opposition.
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (1) Mar 25, 2011
You support the three FCC democrats Net Neutrality in spite of court and congressional opposition
A dummy state court and a congressional circus. Your point?

And before you attempt to play your word games with us, recognize that I'm referring to a court judgement that was invalidated by its own standards, and making reference to the largest bunch of obstructionist hypocrites who have ever called themselves congressmen.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Mar 26, 2011
"A federal appeals court ruled on Tuesday that regulators had limited power over Web traffic under current law."
http://www.nytime...wanted=2

And SH claims to support the rule of law. He believes three appointed democrats should have more power than the judiciary and legislative branches of the federal government.
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (1) Mar 26, 2011
"A federal appeals court ruled on Tuesday that regulators had limited power over Web traffic under current law."
http://www.nytime...wanted=2

And SH claims to support the rule of law. He believes three appointed democrats should have more power than the judiciary and legislative branches of the federal government.

The laws to regulate didn't exist. So they went through the process of instituting new laws.

We've been making new laws for new situations for almost our entire civilized existence on this planet.

Your arguments just get worse and worse.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Mar 26, 2011
Your arguments just get worse and worse.

Your lies keep mounting.
We've been making new laws for new situations for almost our entire civilized existence on this planet.

Who is 'we'?
Under the Constitution, Congress makes the laws. Courts interpret those laws. This process may be called 'the rule of law' if those laws follow the limitations of the Constitution.
"A federal appeals court ruled on Tuesday that regulators had limited power over Web traffic under current law."
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Mar 26, 2011
"Seventy-four House Democrats sent Genachowski, an Obama appointee and fellow Democrat, a letter saying his ideas will "jeopardize jobs" and "should not be done without additional direction from Congress."

A separate letter from 37 Senate Republicans, also sent Monday, was more pointed. It accused Genachowski of pushing "heavy-handed 19th century regulations" that are "inconceivable" as well as illegal."

Here is the real reason:
"If they can't prod the FCC to grease the rails and slide some kind of regulation through soon, even if the legal underpinnings are anything but firm, Congress may not act until the iPhone 8G hits the streets in 2015. And by then, today's high water mark of Democratic political power may be just a memory.

Read more: http://news.cnet....HhzVQtda
"
SH lied about supporting the rule of law. He support the rule of tyrants.

BTW, how do you like those free staters in NH?
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (1) Mar 26, 2011
Under the Constitution, Congress makes the laws.
The congress and all empowered subordinates and delegates. Learn the laws of the country if you're going to attempt to discuss them.
Courts interpret those laws. This process may be called 'the rule of law' if those laws follow the limitations of the Constitution.
So you're saying States have no right to institute law? My my, what a moron you are.
A federal appeals court ruled on Tuesday that regulators had limited power over Web traffic under current law.
Yes, under the current law. The court stated "we have no issue with what you're trying to do, but you have no grounds on which to do it under the current law." So then they instituted new laws at the direction of the court.
Seventy-four House Democrats
Unsurprisingly, it was a delegation of corporatists. Of course you'd agree with them.
BTW, how do you like those free staters in NH?
They should go get jobs and stop vandalizing parking meters.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Mar 26, 2011
The congress and all empowered subordinates and delegates.

Empowered by whom?
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (1) Mar 26, 2011
The congress and all empowered subordinates and delegates.
Empowered by whom?
Congress.
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Mar 26, 2011
The congress and all empowered subordinates and delegates.
Empowered by whom?
Congress.

And this is what Congress said:
"Seventy-four House Democrats sent Genachowski, an Obama appointee and fellow Democrat, a letter saying his ideas will "jeopardize jobs" and "should not be done without additional direction from Congress."

A separate letter from 37 Senate Republicans, also sent Monday, was more pointed. It accused Genachowski of pushing "heavy-handed 19th century regulations" that are "inconceivable" as well as illegal."

Here is the real reason:
"If they can't prod the FCC to grease the rails and slide some kind of regulation through soon, even if the legal underpinnings are anything but firm, Congress may not act until the iPhone 8G hits the streets in 2015. And by then, today's high water mark of Democratic political power may be just a memory.

Read more: http://news.cnet....HhzVQtda
ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (3) Mar 26, 2011
Planners and plunderers (Paps) like the regulatory state because they want to be able to use the power of the govt to force their plan upon the rest and legalize plunder. General Electric is a fine example in the news.

A govt with limited authority, like protecting property rights, too simple for the paps. It limits their opportunities to steal and control because everyone's property must be protected equally.

A great example is when Atlantic City couldn't force Vera Coking to sell her house to Trump.

"Individual freedom finds tangible expression in property rights. This statement, penned by U.S. Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy, recognizes how central property rights are to a free society."
http://www.ij.org...emid=165

ryggesogn2
1 / 5 (4) Mar 26, 2011
"For progressives confused at the heated opposition to their do-gooder agenda, the Kochs became convenient scapegoats. Invoking their name was a way to write off opposition to Obama as the false consciousness of racist rubes stoked by greedy businessmen."
"It was impossible for the liberal activists to acknowledge that libertarians might actually operate from conviction. Charles and David believed in low taxes, less spending, and limited regulation not because those policies helped them but because they helped everybody. If I wanted to enhance my riches, said David, why do I give away almost all my money?"
http://www.weekly...l?page=3
'Liberals' assume everyone lusts for power to control others as they do.
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (1) Mar 26, 2011
Yes of course. Let us use a reference that is often referred to as the neo-con bible to defend a couple of neo-con mercantilists.

I think it's time to simply ignore you.
ennui27
5 / 5 (1) Mar 26, 2011
Yes of course. Let us use a reference that is often referred to as the neo-con bible to defend a couple of neo-con mercantilists.

I think it's time to simply ignore you.


Way past that.

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