Experimental philosophy opens new avenues into old questions
Philosophers have argued for centuries, millennia actually, about whether our lives are guided by our own free will or are predetermined as the result of a continuous chain of events over which we have no control.
On the one hand, it seems like everything that happens has come kind of causal explanation; on the other hand, when we make decisions, it seems to us like we have the free will to make different decisions.
Most people seem to favor free will, and while many, across a range of cultures, reject what is referred to as determinism, they remain conflicted over the role of personal responsibility in situations that require moral judgements, said Shaun Nichols, a professor of philosophy and cognitive science at the University of Arizona.
Nichols is part of a growing number of researchers who are gaining insights into this philosophical dilemma by applying experimental methods commonly used by developmental psychologists and other social scientists. His latest findings ("Experimental Philosophy and the Problem of Free Will") are published in the current issue of the journal Science.
Until recently, these points have been dissected using "careful and sustained thought, sharpened by dialogue with fellow philosophers," Nichols said.
"Mostly what people have done is work on these problems in conceptual ways. You think through the problems; you think about the implications of various theses. And a lot of excellent work has been done on complex philosophical issues using those techniques over the last 2,000 years."
Nichols calls experimental philosophy another tool that can offer new sources of information and help sort through some of these problems.
The debate over free will and determinism is one such problem. The central tenet in determinism is that everything that happens is the result of something that caused it to happen, which itself was caused by something earlier and so on. The conflict comes when people are faced with making a choice or a decision that could go one way or another.
"The dilemma is how do we reconcile how we normally think about causal explanation with this intuition that we have that our decisions are not just the product of these inevitable causal chains," said Nichols.
"It seems like something has to give, either our commitment to free will or the idea that every event is completely caused by the preceding events," Nichols said.
Nichols has tested the idea of free will on young children. Asked if a ball rolling down a ramp into a box could have done something else, they almost universally said "no." But when asked if an adult who reached his hand into a box could have done something else, the answer was uniformly "yes." Their answers may indicate that these concepts form early on in life.
Adults showed conflicting results when tested. Given a deterministic universe where every decision is the result of past decisions, people generally responded that no one could be held morally responsible for their actions in such a universe. But when presented with a scenario in which a man in that theoretical universe has committed a particularly heinous criminal act, most test subjects agreed that the man was fully morally responsible for his actions.
One possible explanation for these conflicting responses is that when people are calm and collected, determinism is thought to exclude free will and moral responsibility. Cases that are much more emotionally charged and hit closer to home, however, elicit something different.
"When you present people with an emotionally laden transgression, and if you ask if the person is morally responsible, then people overwhelmingly say that the person is responsible, even if their action was determined," Nichols said.
Experimental philosophy, he said, may help make sense of why people are pulled in different directions on a range of different and everyday problems.
"The movement is less than 10 years old and there are now hundreds of publications in experimental philosophy. Free will is what I focused on for this review, but there is a great deal of work on other topics, including moral judgment, causal reasoning, and how people think about consciousness. I think it's been a huge success just in terms of the body of research that's been produced."
Provided by
University of Arizona
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Mar 17, 2011
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Mar 17, 2011
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It is a classic of sci fi but there have to be some people who haven't read it.
The ultimate conspiracy.
Mar 17, 2011
Rank: 3.4 / 5 (11)
That is the best way of explaining the implications of determinism if you ask me. Anthropocentric free will advocators tend to think that determinism would somehow render their lives meaningless. Of course it doesn't. Even if you wake up tomorrow fully enlightened of our hard deterministic reality it still won't make you kill yourself. People still need to be held accountable for what they do, because being held accountable is just as much "a part of the machine" as committing the act to begin with. Just think about it. If there would be no consequence for your actions it would actually render determinism false! So of course hard determinism is reality, the only other option is complete randomness! There is no in-between - this is impossible and a ridiculous compromise to please you; it's just your wish as the anthropocentric creature you are that cloud your judgement.
Mar 17, 2011
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Actions are always choices. Choices are by definition free will events.
We cannot escape responsibility for our actions by invoking a deterministic universe.
Mar 17, 2011
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Mar 17, 2011
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So my basic argument is that our will is only free to the degree that we are able to choose an action, and that the degree to which we are able to choose an action depends on the size of the set of actions we have to choose from at that moment, and that the size of the set of actions we have to choose from depends on what we know, then the conclusion is that to increase our free will we must learn as much as possible. I can think of no clearer or more important argument in favor of supporting education. If you want a bunch of moronic robots who can't help but make the same bad decisions over and over again, keep them ignorant! Never teach them about the world, about what is possible, about themselves and what they are capable of. People can only do what they have learned or dreamed, so beware anyone who wants to take away education and smash all hopes and dreams, for this will create a society of easily-controlled automatons...
Mar 17, 2011
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Mar 17, 2011
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You are not exempt from the rigours of physics that the rest of the universe operates within.
Get over it. Let your ego go and relinquish your childish need to feel like you're the centre of the universe.
Religion requires free will... in fact free will is the cornerstone of religion.
Sigh. We have further to go than I thought. This could take a while... I won't see the turning point in my lifetime, I doubt it anyway... perhaps the human race in general is mostly a collection of "adult children" who never evolve beyond the "kicking and screaming" stage of development.
YOU. ARE. NOT. THE. CENTRE. OF. THE. UNIVERSE.
Mar 17, 2011
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Mar 17, 2011
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At the core of reality lies that irascible quantum uncertainty.
From a high level, it is inconceivable to me that any universe that contains this basic uncertainty could also contain anything like absolute determinism at the level of human interactions or behavior. It seems to me to be simply disallowed physically.
Mar 17, 2011
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Mar 17, 2011
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It doesn't matter if everything is causal. All that matters is that if someone murdered someone, say, there is a chance they may do so again, and so we incarcerate them to remove them from the public sphere and reduce the chance of them killing again.
Mar 17, 2011
Rank: 3.6 / 5 (7)
Even if some events are random and ever changing, meaning that I cannot guarantee the same inputs every time, is that change in outcome a decision you made? It seems that it is simply a change in inputs that you had no choice over and were powerless to ignore.
It really seems that our brains are computers that are subject to inputs. Same inputs, same outcome. Sure, our brains change every moment, but that is not a conscious change.
Mar 17, 2011
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Mar 17, 2011
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This reality frustrates me. If punishment, such as prison, is seen totally as conditioning, rather than as "holding a person morally responsible", then punishment (conditioning) continues to make sense even in a world where no free will exists.
If we make decisions based upon the inputs -- our genetic makeup plus our past experience plus our current situation -- our past experience and current situation is altered if we have history to know that doing what we are considering could lead to undesirable consequences. Punishing for undesirable behavior, therefore, makes sense whether we have free will or not.
Mar 17, 2011
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Mar 17, 2011
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As we've narrowed down the rules of the Universe we've been forced to address the implications of increased knowledge of the fabric of reality. Once we understand the rules of the Universe, if we're ever capable, we'll be able to effectively tell the past, the future, and all of the reality of the present from a single particle.
This is why you have to keep an open mind to determinism. It is quite possibly the most freeing thing we could ever prove.
Mar 17, 2011
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There is no FREE WILL.
Mar 17, 2011
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Mar 17, 2011
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So, if the machines decide to get rid of us, do you think they'd do it at their free will?
Mar 17, 2011
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Of course if it is determined that God created the universe, SH will refuse to believe it.
What kind of 'open mind' is that? You and many others have categorically rejected that the universe has been created.
Mar 17, 2011
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Mar 17, 2011
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Beyond that. If this Universe was created by a being, it certainly isn't any of the gods that religions have depicted. Most definitely not your god. Far too local and ignorant to have done this. You make assumptions about how my mind works. I don't have a set in stone dogma as you do.No, we state that the Universe doesn't have any evidence of creation, and that your thought process behind it is as learned as a desert goat herder on a mushroom trip.
Mar 17, 2011
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Interesting proposition, but I can't even conceive how this could be proven in any way at all.
Mar 17, 2011
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There are many factors that can limit freedom of will besides determinism eg cultural/economic/social constraint. And a deterministic will is only free if the brain it inhabits is also deterministic.
The author of the rubbish in this article is totally, utterly and completely clueless ~ go back to school and learn some real philosophy...
Mar 17, 2011
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Follow the advice of SH, keep an open mind and maybe you can determine a way.
Mar 17, 2011
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I can't prove that you exist until I meet you. Until then you could simply be an amazing Turing machine.
Mar 17, 2011
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My mind is open, but I still cannot see how your proposition could ever be proved even in principle. How would you go about it?
Mar 17, 2011
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In theory, it is possible to predict the path, or 'choice' in any deterministic system, in this case human beings.
Our test subject, Bob, is told what his choice will be after his system is fully analysed and mapped.
If he is subject to the rules of determinism, he will be unable to alter this choice.
Bob is clearly not forced to follow the predicted path of his system.
Therefore, we are not entirely determined entities.
The only possible solution to this problem is if free will is a quantum phenomenon, although how this could be possible, I cannot imagine.
Mar 18, 2011
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I cannot speak for SH of course, however I can't really let this one go past without comment because I suspect that I too am one of the "many others" you implicitly chastise.
For it to be "determined that God created the universe", 2 conditions would have to be met: the God would have to be physically produced or empirically shown to exist and then either the produced God would have to prove that it was capable of creating a universe and that it did so in fact for our universe or the empirical proof of existence of the God would have to explicitly include a proof of universe creation. If these proofs occurred then of course anyone should accept it as fact.
This is the most open sort of mind, surely? One that rejects dogma in the search of truth.
cont.
Mar 18, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (7)
I think what you mean is that "many others" reject that the universe had a creator-being. (Presumably, the God you refer to.)
This is quite straightforward to reject in the lack of the proofs I outlined above. What's the problem? Something that's written in a book? Well, there are lots of things written in all sorts of books that purport to tell me what the universe is about; quite frankly I don't know how to decide which of them are true and which aren't except by taking notice of proofs of such things that sensible, rational people who are trained to find such proofs are able to tell me about. Most of these people are scientists because the scientific method is the best way we've so far found to decide on what is true.
Mar 18, 2011
Rank: 4.2 / 5 (6)
But that is the problem. How could those conditions ever be met? If an entity appeared and said it was god, how can it be verified? Even if he could do some 'magic' tricks for you as 'proof', would that really be proof? Could the 'tricks' just be advanced tech? Or an illusion? A rewiring of your brain's memory? What would constitute proof that he created this universe? Perhaps he could 'explain' the nature of reality, but surely we would not be able to understand it, especially if the language and/or mathematics are beyond us and even then you couldn't verify it in any meaningful way.
My position is that such proofs can never be obtained, even in principle.
Mar 18, 2011
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Atheism is a common position amongst scientists and educated (generally 'western') people, but the problem of proof is that it must be empirical, which automatically limits the available areas of enquiry.
This is one of the reasons I am an agnostic, apart from my own very limited brain. We are simply unable to answer the question of the existence of any kind of transcendental phenomena, such as a Creator, using standard scientific methods.
Free will also runs into this limitation. It is simply beyond science to explain how we can have free will, and yet it clearly exists.
Mar 18, 2011
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So the questionable bits are these: was any origination (creating) involved in the universe we see and experience and, if so, what conditions did the creating?
Mar 18, 2011
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Well, yes. I think that was the general thrust of my comment. I happen to disagree with your assertion that such proofs could never be obtained *even in principle*, but in general, yes.
Mar 18, 2011
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I think the course of my life is like a bicycle trip. Numerous chaotic factors push the bike left or right, but usually they balance out so that my general trajectory stays on course. I could change the course (go back to school, get a different job), but the bicycle has a definite momentum that needs a positive force to change its current direction.
Meanwhile, most mornings I don't fill the wrong cup with water.
Mar 18, 2011
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Mar 18, 2011
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Why do you say that these are beyond science to investigate and/or prove? Surely we do not yet know everything? Therefore it follows that we cannot yet know if some future discovery or thing will allow us to do these investigations?
Even if that doesn't occur, use of the scientific method does not preclude such investigations. As I've said (to creationists) before in these forums, it may be difficult to investigate the existence or otherwise of some god-like creator but that shouldn't dissuade you if that's your thing. Science is a tool set, so long as the tools are not corrupted to some untrue end, then they should (as above, at least in principle) provide ways to proceed.
Mar 18, 2011
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(Damn, this 1000 char limit is annoying sometimes.)
Mar 18, 2011
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What other avenues of inquiry are there?
I ask the question again, what other methods are there that are not subject to the scientific method?
You seem to think free will is a given. I think the question is of a philosophical nature and may not yield to scientific inquiry. But outside of scientific inquiry, there are only assertions and beliefs.
Mar 18, 2011
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Mar 18, 2011
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Free will is pointless.
Free will is so pointless. So pointless to ignore.
I understand.
Determinism is pointless.
Determinism is so pointless. So pointless to ignore.
I understand the impossibility to state pointlessness.
I understand everything comes to a point.
The 500 comment thread devoted to those two words:
http:://www.physorg.com/news186830615.html
Many of us here, partook there as well.
Mar 18, 2011
Rank: 4.2 / 5 (5)
But that's basing the creator's existence on a set of myths and legends of the various peoples of the world. Do you think that any of them actually witnessed the 'real' creator? I think we can safely discount that notion, and therefore any 'proofs' that may rely on these myths. The notion of a creator surely needs to be more general and abstract than what is found in various religious texts.
continued
Mar 18, 2011
Rank: 4.2 / 5 (5)
Those types of things have been investigated to no effect (short of the power of positive thinking/placebo). And even if there was some statistically significant effect, it would not be proof of a creator, in and of itself. That's why I still stick with my 'in principle' objection.
Mar 18, 2011
Rank: 4.3 / 5 (3)
Ultimately looking at the non-deterministic nature of the weather for example, it is impossible to predict very far into the future not because our computers alack power, its because of the underlying uncertainty predicting the future given a boundary condition of the state in the present instant.
Adding in the intelligence and choice making apparatus of a human being and suggesting determinism for such a complex system is ridiculous.
Mar 18, 2011
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Gets an A for originality for using a minilink to hide the fact that the site is selling shoes. Gets an abuse report for spamming this and many other sites as can be seen by googling the link.
Ethelred
Mar 18, 2011
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Mar 18, 2011
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Mar 18, 2011
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Mar 18, 2011
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If we decide to punish people for their actions, or we don't it's already determined. Why even discuss it? Discussion of ANY topic is irrelevant because it's not discussion and thought that controls outcomes, but deterministic chemical processes governed by the laws of thermodynamics.
Mar 18, 2011
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Mar 18, 2011
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Mar 18, 2011
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Unless that god made you with knowledge of all past present and future outcomes yet still made you.
It's called the illusion of free will and is a central refutation to the presence of an all-knowing creator god providing free will.
Once an entity with perfect knowledge of all outcomes creates another being, that second being does not have free will be causal definition.
Mar 18, 2011
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That assumption results in many (hopefully) unintended consequences in dealing with emergent systems like economies, politics and global climate.
Mar 18, 2011
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"In experimental philosophy we are to look upon propositions inferred by general induction from phenomena as accurately or very nearly true, not withstanding any contrary hypothesis that may be imagined, till such time as other phenomena occur, by which they may either be made more accurate, or liable to exceptions." - Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica, Book 3, Isaac Newton.
Before Newton, what we call 'science' today was known as 'natural philosophy'. Newton's introduction of mathematics into this field was practically the invention of rational mechanics, or 'physics' as we call it today.
In other words, experimental philosophers are called 'physicists' today, or more broadly 'scientists'. This fact has been known for over 300 years.
Mar 18, 2011
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Not as I understand it. The concept of "required" is meaningless as well in that paradigm. Things will be determined regardless of any set of conditions.
Mar 18, 2011
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That is a well known logical fallacy.
1) A creator god does not necessarily need to be "all knowing" and probably would not be.
2) Even presuming that a god can predict your choice, you still have the choice.
Mar 18, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (1)
Which comes dome to the fact that I think I'm with DamienS on this one: I don't think there's any way to actually falsify "free will" one way or the other even in principle. Experimental my a**. It's a matter of faith and philosophy more than anything else. Little wonder gods gets brought up in such discussions as often as they do in ones about evolution.
Mar 18, 2011
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Mar 18, 2011
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Mar 18, 2011
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Your partner?
All of science. All of the sciences.
Isn't there a saying? Science abhors a vacuum?
Randomness is just as abhorrent, as well.
If free will is your choice, then you are on your own.
Science abhors you. (Nothing personal, mind you) :)
Mar 18, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (6)
The God of Abraham never claimed omniscience, so yes, it could be him.
Therein lies the flaw in your reasoning. As long as you can choose and do choose, you have demonstrated your free will.
A foreknowledge of your choice by anyone, be it a god or a friend, does not negate your free choice.
Mar 18, 2011
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Mar 18, 2011
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This exercise in determinism is just another way to justify irresponsibility. "The devil made me do it!"
Mar 18, 2011
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You should read those verses yourself. Nothing in any of them about an all knowing god.
And as I said, you are attributing an omniscience to god which god has not claimed, therefore your argument fails.
Mar 18, 2011
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Mar 18, 2011
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You obviously don't, saying it contains statements it plainly does not contain.
Why not admit that your argument is flawed and fails?
Mar 18, 2011
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My argument: if your creator knows everything that has and will happen to you, and the result of each choice you make, your life has been lain out before your birth down to the very end result and each choice you make. You cannot deviate, you cannot alter your path, you do not have free will, regardless of how you feel about it.
Your argument: nu-uh.
Add some substance to your stance if you want to sway my opinion.
Mar 18, 2011
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Your argument stands on a flawed concept -- the omniscience of God.
Mar 18, 2011
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Mar 18, 2011
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Please quote chapter and verse.
Mar 18, 2011
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Gosh you're good.
Mar 18, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (1)
Read Matthew 26:25-26. Surely you can't dispute that Jesus predicting the future and the actions of Judas isn't an act of Omniscience?
Mar 18, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (4)
Skeptic_Heretic's argument is that the omniscience of God results in a lack of free will. You argue with Skeptic_Heretic. Both of you have claimed that God has claimed to be omniscient.
No where in the bible has God claimed to be all knowing. You say it is in there, then quote where God claimed to be omniscient.
You cannot and Skeptic_Heretic cannot because God never made any such claim.
Skeptic_Heretic's argument and your agreement with him fail because the argument is based on a false premise -- that God is omniscient. It is not in the bible.
Mar 18, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (3)
Uhm...yeah it does?
Psalms 147:5
Mar 18, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (4)
Uhm ... no, it doesn't.
David states that God has infinite understanding. Neither David nor God claim infinite knowledge or omniscience.
Mar 18, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (5)
Actually i couldn't agree with Skeptic_heretic more, especially since i haven't even addressed the free will aspect of this discussion. I was simply stating that your comments about your God not being omniscient aren't consistent with the bibles account of Him. However, i do realize that you are trying to suggest the "He" has never made such a claim. Also, I noticed that you didn't mention my example of Jesus and Judas. Probably because there is no way to dispute that it is a perfect example of omniscience.
Mar 18, 2011
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I would think that if you understand everything, you would know everything..but ok.
How bout Isaiah 46:910
Mar 19, 2011
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I think knowledge and understanding could be used interchangeably in that context.. but ok.
How bout Isaiah 46:910
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 4.3 / 5 (6)
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (6)
I did mention your response, that there is no statement in the bible that God is omniscient. God predicts many things, but he never claims omniscience.
JMar,
Nope. God does not claim omniscience in Isaiah. He does not claim that anywhere in the bible.
soulman,
It is not just a semantic argument. I argue that you have free will a priori. That the existence or non-existence of a god does not change your free will.
Skeptic_Heretic, Scientist_Steve and JMar are arguing that because God is omniscient, there can be no free will. I am just pointing out that that argument is flawed because God has never claimed omniscience.
We cannot escape responsibility for our actions by claiming that God has robbed us of free will. It just is not true.
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (4)
I knew you were going to say that. :)
That's a pathetic argument for anyone to make. It really doesn't matter whether we have free will or not as long as it feels like we do.
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (5)
Of course it matters. It is the difference between being a reasoning, self directing creature or being an automaton, incapable of self direction.
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (5)
No, it matters not, because, as I said, if it 'feels' like you have free will (and it does) it makes no difference what the reality is.
Mar 19, 2011
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Most people are very much concerned with reality, but there are some few individuals who don't care.
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (4)
You seem to have trouble discerning the finer nuances in argumentation, otherwise you wouldn't have said that.
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (4)
I do wonder why you involve yourself in discussion of something which you say does not matter.
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (6)
It is typical of you to intentionally misquote in order to obfuscate and misrepresent. My entire quote was:
"if it 'feels' like you have free will (and it does) it makes no difference what the reality is."
Let me spell it out for you. I'm saying whatever the reality is (and I'm agreeing with DamienS and Gawad here), the truth is likely not knowable. And given that, the fact that it 'feels' like we have free will is all that matters when it comes to conducting our daily lives. Do you get it now?
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 1.7 / 5 (6)
I disagree, however. The nature of reality is very important.
The difference between being a free, thinking individual or being a preprogrammed automaton is hugely important.
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 2.3 / 5 (6)
If you look at the physorg main page you see various articles every day discussing things which subconsciously influence our 'will'. Gut bacteria. Genes. Our names. Tsunamis. Brain damage. Education. Propaganda. Our jobs. Our friends and family. Money. I had an attack of free will once but then I got the flu and it went away.
Philosophy is just another name for religionism- the belief in the unreal. It was offered as a compelling substitute to wean people off religion during the Enlightenment. It convinced many gens of germans that they had the right to rule europe, and Europeans the world. It has had many such sociopolitical uses. But as it has no basis in the evolutionary structure of the brain, it is nonsense. It never adequately described human behavior except by chance, and when it was actually able to influence behavior. This ability is yet one more example of our relative lack of 'free will'.
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 2.3 / 5 (6)
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (3)
The Gospel according to Otto.
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 2.3 / 5 (6)
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 2.7 / 5 (7)
-I would have to say that most all philosophy is sophistry itself, as it is comprised of little more than skillful rhetoricians and wishful thinking. And a considerable load of unwarranted authority.
Philosophy is a poor substitute for reality.
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (3)
"Remember the former things of old, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure'" (Isaiah 46:9-10)."
I realize there are different ways to interpret scripture (for instance, I interpret it as bullshit), but for you to be right, you need to do some semantic acrobatics to twist the word omniscient into what you're arguing. Knowing everthing from the beginning to the end of our perceived time smacks of omniscience to me.
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 1.8 / 5 (5)
I agree with that!
My dad used to tell me not to get a degree in philosophy. When I asked why, he said "What are you going to do, open a philosophy shop on the corner? Who is going to buy what you are selling?".
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 2.3 / 5 (6)
"The term Alpha and Omega comes from the phrase "I am the alpha and the omega", an appellation of Jesus in the Book of Revelation (verses 1:8, 21:6, and 22:13).
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (5)
All is heuristic.
http://www.me.ute...ory.html
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (2)
Jesus did use those terms to indicate that he was at the beginning and that he would be at the end.
Doesn't have anything at all to do with omniscience.
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (1)
Anything?
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 2.3 / 5 (6)
Of course- free will does exist! But only god has it. :B
Let me reformulize dat: if free will exists, only an omniscient god could possess it.
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 2.3 / 5 (6)
"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference."
-Which still presumes that people know what needs to be changed and what doesn't, which they often do not.
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
God certainly knows a lot. But he has never claimed omniscience.
TheGhostofOtto1923,
You can, of course, "see it" anyway you want. Since God has not said it, your view is your own and not based on anything God has said.
Omniscience and power are not the same, and he never claimed that he could grant "absolutely any wish". Perhaps you are confusing him with a genie?
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
Quoting random verses from the bible is OK, but none of them say that God is omniscient.
TheGhostofOtto1923,
You may, of course, "see it" any way you choose. Since God did not say it, your view is just yours. It is not in the bible.
Power and knowledge are not the same thing. He never said he could grant "absolutely any wish" either. Perhaps you have him confused with a genie?
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
That assumes independence - by any definition one chooses for the word independence. Off hand, I can not imagine any higher bar or burden (of science or proof in math) to place on a concept.
Free will needs a better definition to gain access to science.
Determinism has long held and enjoyed such access.
To be self deterministic, I have to be random. I can not take refuge in a tiny niche of Quantum Mechanics to claim randomness. It was determinism that created the niche.
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 3 / 5 (2)
Yes.
One single rule. The assumption.
Necessary and insufficient and incomplete.
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 3 / 5 (4)
Science, however, exists to eliminate spontaneity. When a phenomena is well understood scientifically, its appearance is never spontaneous, but always expected and if not predicted, predictable. This would reveal the object investigated as "free will" as not spontaneous, and thus not free.
The real problem, however, is in thinking that free will is a phenomena or object at all. It is not. Someone once said that man is not a rational creature so much as he is a rationalizing creature. This is true. Science is one of our more successful rationalizations. But belief in free will is necessary to do any rationalizing at all.
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
Interesting.
Maybe one day a creature will exist that assumes nothing. Assuming that is not a rule.
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 2.1 / 5 (7)
What's really funny is how CERTAIN godlovers are of their own particular interpretation of fantasy. And when encountering one another you usually choose the 'wise' and respectable stance of 'agreeing to disagree. So others might not detect the mutual absurdity of your self-deception i suppose.
I am snickering once again. Does god have a mother or not?? Maybe SHE is more omniscient than he is?More absurdity from a pseudo-religionist. Science exists to EXPLAIN things. Spontaneity only explains your 'insights' as in 'what sophistry can I sell today?
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: not rated yet
Actually I believe in free will. I was just trying to clear things up on God being omniscient. But obviously you just reject anything that I present to you sooo...
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 2 / 5 (4)
However, as necessary as the concept of free will is for making sense of the idea of "making sense," it is nevertheless never experienced or phenomenally encountered by anyone, anywhere. It is incapable of being measured or weighed. In short, free choice is not an object of science.
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 2.7 / 5 (7)
"Hmmm, alpha/omega, do you think they might get the idea that I start and end things but the middle is up for grabs? Maybe they'll fear that I'm not around to answer prayers... Well maybe, but I'll say it anyway because it sounds cool. Ambiguity just makes me seem wiser than them anyhow." -End of interlude.
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 2.1 / 5 (7)
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 2.1 / 5 (7)
Can science seek to explain things which aren't 'spontaneous' but are still not understood? Of course.
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (3)
I don't just reject what you say. The undeniable fact is that God has never claimed to be omniscient, therefore, any argument that God is omniscient must fail.
I would argue that even if God were omniscient, free will would still exist, but such an argument is rejected out of hand by those who want a deterministic universe. But those who want a deterministic universe and base it on God's omniscience lack an effective argument.
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 2.3 / 5 (6)
Like I said your OPINION is only one of many OPINIONS regarding your god, others perhaps being more highly regarded than yours.
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
You are discussing opinions, particularly your own. I am not. I have merely pointed out numerous times that the God of Abraham has never claimed omniscience in the bible.
It is not my opinion. The bible is a real document which can be searched. It contains no statement that God is omniscient.
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: not rated yet
@Thras
I disagree. With the full understanding of reality, you would effectively be able to understand everything. That would enable beneficial adjustment. Thus enabling free will through determinism.
Until you understand it, you're a slave to it, so to speak.
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
One of the hallmarks of all science is measurement. Perhaps free will, will point out one day that all measurement is arbitrary.
A desperate measure.
Mar 19, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (2)
We're not really in much disagreement here, I don't think. Perhaps another way to put what I've said is that as we understand a phenomenon, we free ourselves from it. If free of choice is something we can come to understand, then we would be able to free ourselves from free choice, a pretty blatant paradox. Conversely, if we are unable to understand free choice, we will remain slaves to that freedom, which is also a paradoxical expression. The resolution of this paradox is to deny the phenomenal objectivity of free will. Free will is not an object for understanding, it is a condition for the possibility of understanding.
Mar 20, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
SH wrote:
Thrasymaschus wrote:
Reminds me of Websites stating: Under construction.
Division by zero and free will are undefined.
We'll master both. Till then, who's our master?
Mar 20, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (4)
That's a quote directly from the Vatican's website. Check it for yourself. Is the Pope wrong too?
http://www.vatica...8en.html
Mar 20, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (3)
Mar 20, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (2)
There are lots of churches, lots of priests and lots of opinions. I don't care to argue anything based on someone else's opinion.
God does not claim omniscience. A simple search of the bible shows that he does not. This is not anyone's opinion. It is fact.
You may hold any opinion you choose, based on any criteria you want or no criteria. But if you have nothing to base your opinion on other than someone else's opinion, you have no basis for argument.
Mar 20, 2011
Rank: 3.4 / 5 (10)
This is why religion, or rather the defects within us humans which cause us to crave such fantasy, is so DANGEROUS. You are utterly convinced your FANTASY is FACT. And so are the people I referenced whose FANTASIES are nevertheless in conflict with your own, and with other delusionists like yourself.
Mar 20, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (2)
Are you truly incapable of discerning the difference between a fact and an opinion?
It is not my opinion that God does not claim omniscience in the bible. It is a simple fact, easily verified by you or anyone else.
You are arguing based on your opinion and on other people's opinions. I am not.
Mar 20, 2011
Rank: 3 / 5 (2)
You are free to define "division by zero" in a mathematically immaculate way by, for instance, applying a one-point-compactification to the real line. Unfortunately, as a consequence, you can't continue to do mathematics the naive way.
Mar 20, 2011
Rank: not rated yet
Mar 20, 2011
Rank: 4.3 / 5 (6)
If you are not a Roman Catholic, then you are not obliged to believe in the omniscience of "god".There is no "simple search" of the Bible. Because most people cannot read the original Bible. The can only read translations.
And those who can read the original Bible don't know the original meanings of the words as these meanings are depending on contexts we cannot retrace with certainty.
And a fictitious person with that comprehensive knowledge still would be subject to his own cultural roots.It's a fact that the Bible does not attribute omniscience to the character called "god". Worse: The authors of the Bible had no idea of the modern term "omniscience".
Mar 20, 2011
Rank: 2.7 / 5 (7)
The bible does so state, by inference, implication, example, and by metaphor, that god is omni-everything. In the proper translation, the phrase 'I am that I am' would be expanded to say just that.
There is no-thing that god cannot do, cannot know, and cannot change past, present, or future. This is inherent in the very def of monotheism and essential to granting wishes.
Mar 20, 2011
Rank: 2.7 / 5 (7)
"The All-Seeing Eye was representative of the omniscience of Horus, the Sun God"
God knew you before you were in the womb. Another example of implication.
Mar 20, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (4)
How can Catholicism hold that God is immanent and transcendant without omniscience?
You cannot be all seeing and timeless without a defacto admission of being all-knowing. This is supported by the writings of Tertullian and Origin. Modern catholicism may allow deviation from the statment of omniscience, but the base writings and their interpretations hold otherwise.
This is akin to how many Christians believe there is no afterlife for the human soul due to the statements of "to dust we all shall return."
Mar 20, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
Presumptuous. The act of not defining "division by zero" constitutes mathematical apprenticeship. Meaning always precedes definitions. Mastering meaning will always overshadow forthcoming definitions.
I do not understand your point (pun intended). The point (literally and mathematically) added to the real line for compactification is and remains undefined.
There is no 'unfortunate consequence' in doing mathematics.
Doing mathematics in any way, (good, bad, wrong, right, naive, savvy, ...Ad infinitum), leads to continuation.
Mar 20, 2011
Rank: 3 / 5 (8)
Mar 20, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (2)
Mar 20, 2011
Rank: not rated yet
to use a variation of the ball instance in the article: if you push a ball, will it move or stay still? It moves... Why? Because you put a force on it right. So the act of putting a force on it determined it would move (and in a certain direction). But what if you decided not to push it....it wouldnt move, but you made the decision to make it not move.
In that thinking, it makes me think everything is "randomly determined".
Yes outcomes are determined on previous events, but if you had made a different decision, the same outcome would not result. Decision making is random based on cirucumstances.
Thinking out loud more than anything, and half awake at that.
Mar 20, 2011
Rank: 3 / 5 (8)
Proto-xians discussed biblical content for centuries before finalizing canon to eliminate fatal flaws and embarrassing inconsistencies. They missed a few.
Mar 20, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (4)
It is plain that god does not claim omniscience, but the people who want determinism and want to use god's omniscience to support that flawed concept continue to claim that omniscience even when it has been shown by the bible that god has never made such a claim.
It is humorous as well that the people who are claiming to know god better than god don't actually believe in a god.
People will fight to the death to preserve their logical errors and dogma.
Mar 20, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (3)
Yes, you would.
Mar 20, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (2)
But unlike other denominations, Roman Catholicism does not rely on a literal exegesis of that collection of texts called "Bible". Thus any argument recurring to the Bible is of only minor importance for RCC members unless expressed by an authority.
Equally unknown to people without contact to the RCC is the ultimate position of the individual conscience concerning the _deeds_ of the believer.
Mar 20, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (3)
You have not heard me spouting dogma. Neither have I tried to support the notion of determinism on a logically flawed concept of an omniscience god as you have.
Mar 20, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (3)
Correct. The Roman Catholic Church relies on dogma rather than scripture.
Mar 20, 2011
Rank: 3 / 5 (2)
The Wikipedia entry on the "real projective line" provides you with a definition of "division by zero".
I did not mention "unfortunate consequences". But it's inconvenient (for most people) to do mathematics in a not-naive way.
Mar 20, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (1)
Random means unpredictable, as quantum events seem to be, deterministic means completely predictable, as macro-scale physics seems to be. When you combine these, you get a universe that is semi-predictable, meaning you can have some idea about what the future will be with some probability, but you can't be absolutely certain.
However, to me, neither randomness nor determinism make any sense with the sort of ethereal definition of free will that a lot of people use. What else is left besides randomness or causation or some combination of these?
Mar 20, 2011
Rank: 4 / 5 (1)
Mar 20, 2011
Rank: 2.6 / 5 (5)
Mar 20, 2011
Rank: not rated yet
I think the idea that we are always free to kill ourselves, is pretty much assumed by everyone. I'm just not sure if it is something we can really take for granted.
Is it possible that at least some portion of the population, if not most, with the means and sufficient reason to end their life, would simply be unable to do so. They would not be able to pull that trigger even if they wanted to. How would you even determine between those who could and didn't and those who couldn't (this is wildly assuming that an experiment could ethically be constructed to test all this).
Mar 21, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
:) I stand corrected. "division by zero" has MANY definitions.
Your statement:
simply lends to my comment:
When the mathematical world (or for the philosophical world, as well) agree to ONE definition to their prospective areas of study - division by zero and/or free will - that will be the sign of mastery for me.
"Naive" for me is when there are as many definitions for a specific concept as there are branches of mathematics.
I UNDERSTAND the purpose of assigning many definitions to ONE concept ("division by zero") to accommodate and RESTRICT the properties of certain branches of mathematics to gain INSIGHT to a concept that has a potential application to the entire realm of mathematics.
cont...
Mar 21, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (2)
Instead of saying "division by zero" is'undefined', the better choice of words are your own words - slightly morphed:
"You are free to define "division by zero" in as many immaculate mathematically ways as the branches of mathematics find useful in elucidating the concept.
That "many definitions" carries into the meaning "undefined" is misleading. I understand.
Mar 21, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
So there you have it. The assumption. Ironically tagged with the word "choice". A second assumption assigns us a "will" - the 'capability' to assume or claim any concept to be true.
Once upon a time, evolution brought forth humans, with a desire and philosophy, and a human urge or longing, for that whatever assumption humans made, those assumptions must fulfill a banner called "free".
Our will to assume is free. That is the assumption.
Determinism will always view this as a rule. Determined to assume nothing.
Mar 21, 2011
Rank: 3 / 5 (2)
If the universe was deterministic, it would mean nothing you did matters. Well that may be true but it still doesnt mean nothing you do changes the future. Big..MASSIVE distinction.
The universe and the timeline of the universe are completely created by the actions of the present. Hence the universe doesnt care if you killed someone...but you might. This is inter-component entanglement or chaos theory. Something you do that is insignificant (and trust me anything you do is insignificant) has an effect that is significant.
You can rewind the clock of the universe as much as you like and each time you play you will have the same result. This is not determinism, this is simply watching a video.. GO in front of your tv and watch a video...rewind and play....rewind and play...Guess what the movie is the same. Free-Will is what created the video...determinism is the idiot (YOU) watching the video again and again.
Mar 21, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (2)
If you did all the working out you end up with the fact thats its impossible, its like saying when its night time the sun shines. Anyhone that does a divide by 0 is actually the same as shoving a hot poker up your bum.
Unassigned/undetermined is the term used by mathematicians to tell the lay-person to stop annoying them and go away, hoping they spend the rest of their lives being somewhere else.
Even your calculator should say error, if it doesnt, its telling you to go away as youre too stupid.
Mar 21, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
Do you know who wrote those prophetic words?
Me, just then.
Mar 21, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (1)
A determinist is a person who of thier own free will chooses to believe the doctrine that all events, including human choices and decisions, have sufficient causes.
Mar 21, 2011
Rank: 3 / 5 (2)
People like to have faith, fair enough, but at least put your faith in something endorsed by the person who was supposed to have written it. As far as I can see GOD only endorsed 10 items, he/she did not endorse the bible.
Hence, anyone taking the bible as gods words are in effect speaking as the devil, who has in their own terms...confused them.
God (apparently) made 10 commandments...nothing more, nothing less.
I do not believe in god, but i can certainly see (insane) people making a big mistake in there faith.
Mar 21, 2011
Rank: not rated yet
2.)As an algebraic structure, every field is a ring, but not every ring is a field. The most important difference is that fields allow for division (though not division by zero), while a ring need not possess multiplicative inverses.
Well, we mathematicians call that the "ring of fire".
See 1.) and 2.)
lol
Mar 21, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (3)
I had given up on this discussion because I thought is was pointless........
However, i can't believe you are still arguing this point about Gods Omniscience. I think everyone can see your point that the bible never uses the exact word Omniscience in relation to God. But he still demonstrates His ability to "be" omniscient in numerous places throughout the bible. As in the example i gave before three times, Jesus and Judas. Jesus informs Judas that he will betray him in the coming days and although Judas is informed of his impending "choice", he still betrays him. How else would you describe that situation. Was it merely a really good guess by Jesus? Explain it to us.
Mar 21, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (2)
Or if that example still isn't satisfactory, explain the book of Revelation. Seems to just about anyone who reads it that it is a description of FUTURE events....
Let it go man, your argument is taking on water faster then you can bail.
Mar 21, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (5)
Perhaps you should look up the meaning of the word omniscient. It deals with infinity. Infinity is a useful mathmatical concept, but it is essentially meaningless when applied to real things.( I am aware that the King James version of the bible erroneously attributes omnipotence to God, that is a translation error. )
You are welcome to your opinion, but you cannot make God something which he, himself, has not claimed to be.
I refer to scripture. You cite dogma. I would think a professed scientist would reject dogma out of hand.
Mar 21, 2011
Rank: 4.4 / 5 (5)
If your entire argument hinges on the correct translation of the bible, then please enlighten us on which version you are referring to?
As to your comment on my understanding of omniscience, I understand the meaning. Whats your point? You used it first in your previous posts? Would you like to pick a new word?
As you mention above, i am welcome to my opinion and my opinion of Gods attributes are based on how the stories in the bible (apparently the King James version) have depicted Him. On a comical note, i would ask if you believe the account of Moses and the burning bush?
Mar 21, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (5)
The burning bush is in the bible -- any version you might like. An omniscient God is in no bible.
Mar 21, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (4)
Your response is typical of most religious fanatics.
As for my question about the burning bush, I would submit that if the story is true, God is a shape-shifter : ) But according to your logic, he is not and not capable of doing such, simply because He has never proclaimed I AM A SHAPE SHIFTER!! My point, all religious texts are full of stories that describe events and attributes of God and do not necessarily state in plain text characteristics that he clearly exhibits.
Your argument fails.
Mar 21, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (6)
Strange that you would lend credence to someone else's opinions but not to God's statements about himself.
You have no basis for you flawed opinions. Arguments based on "this is what I want reality to be" fail from lack of any bssis in reality.
Your arguments fail.
Mar 21, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (3)
Please don't insult my intelligence by assuming anything about me.
Who's opinions exactly am I lending credence to?
My entire focus in this discussion has simply been leading up to my burning bush example above. You claim that all of us are making statements based on an incorrect assumption that we have interpreted from the bible. Yet you cannot admit that your own logic is flawed, because you too have made the same error in my burning bush example.
My argument is very solid.
Mar 21, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (5)
It is OK for you to express strange opinions. I don't care about your fantasies.
Mar 21, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (1)
Mar 21, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
I think we presume a continuity of self or identity, but I fail to see how that is necessary for free will. All that is necessary for free will is that you have a choice and that you are free to make that choice.
Mar 21, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (2)
Congratulations! You have won by attrition / stubbornness. I will most likely give up shortly out of sheer boredom for where this conversation is going. If you cannot see the failure in your own logic that i clearly provided an example of above, there is really no point proceeding on here.
Its to bad you don't care more about my "fantasies", because i sorta had one about the direction of this conversation. Except it included you providing a better argument for me to destroy. Big swing and miss.
Moving on
Mar 21, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (6)
You are either being facetious or you know nothing at all about the issues being discussed.
When God spoke to Moses from a bush, God was not transformed into a bush. If he had spoken to Moses from a cave, he would not have transformed into stone either. God is spirit. If you knew anything at all about God you would know this.
God is not some SciFi/Fantasy "shape changer".
You need to try to live in the real world.
Mar 21, 2011
Rank: 3 / 5 (6)
"God had a wife, Asherah, whom the Book of Kings suggests was worshiped alongside Yahweh in his temple in Israel, according to an Oxford scholar."
http
://news.discovery.com/history/god-wife-yahweh-asherah-110318.html
[silence]
Mar 21, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (4)
Don't let the opportunity to blaspheme pass you by.
Mar 21, 2011
Rank: 3.3 / 5 (7)
Let me address your addiction directly. There is no god. There is no soul. When you die you go nowhere, you just end. You will never see your dead relatives again because they too have ended. This is the awful reality that we face without the drug we call faith. Another insurmountable human dilemma. Evolution gave us brains which could remember the past and see our futures and it drives us insane.
Mar 22, 2011
Rank: 3.9 / 5 (7)
But when did you think this non-event occurred? In years BC please. You can give a error spread if you want. If you can't give a date within a reasonable error spread than you simply don't know what you are talking about.
Which has been clear since you started here.
If by god you mean Jehovah then your right. He doesn't exist in the first place. There may be a god but the Jehovah of Genesis simply does not exist.
I think IRONY fits that statement extremely well.
In any case most Christians believe that Jehovah is pretty much all-powerful and thus he can assume any shape he wants. So you are being heretical in claiming Jehovah is not a shape shifter.
Ethelred
Mar 22, 2011
Rank: 3.9 / 5 (7)
No. Try and find an actual table of commandments in the Bible. It's not there. The numbers were put in later by people trying to pull the actual commandments from a series of remarks.
I did a search of the Bible via Blue Letter Bible and found the tablets were never laid out the way people think they were. I am constantly surprised at how much the Bible varies from the stories told ABOUT the Bible. For instance people think there was a warning about the flood and everyone but Noah failed to heed it. Not true. There was no warning. According to Genesis Jehovah INTENDED to kill everyone but Noah and his family and a warning would have been counterproductive and it simply isn't mentioned in the Bible in any case.
Ethelred
Mar 22, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (6)
I find it strange that atheists spend so much of their time arguing (incorrectly) about God.
The phrase "Get a life!" comes to mind, but I know you have already rejected that path.
Mar 22, 2011
Rank: 3.7 / 5 (6)
I find it strange that you waste so much time a science site pretending you are not a Fundamentalist. And making up crap like that. I am NOT an Atheist and just where did make an incorrect statement?
You should try that.
Don't you ever get tired of lying like that. My life includes twitting twits.
Ethelred
Mar 22, 2011
Rank: 3.7 / 5 (6)
When was that? Did it really happen?
But when did you think this non-event occurred? In years BC please. You can give a error spread if you want. If you can't give a date within a reasonable error spread than you simply don't know what you are talking about.
Lying about me won't make me forget that you evaded the question. Keep in mind that I don't lose my temper in online discussions. After all, the only way for me to lose a discussion is to lose my temper and not wait till I calm down. Pretty rare for me to need to calm down these days.
Or to lie and evade to the point that everyone notices.
Since I take questions head on and don't lie, which is not to say that I don't make mistakes, I really can only lose if I lose my temper and I gave that up a long time ago.
Ethelred
Mar 22, 2011
Rank: 3.4 / 5 (5)
Quite a bit of Christian belief has no Biblical basis. The idea that there is only one god for instance. In Exodus it is hard to avoid coming to the the conclusion that not only did the person that wrote it believe in other gods but so did Jehovah. The Jews were not supposed to have OTHER gods before them. Not false gods, as you often see, but OTHER gods.
Ethelred
Mar 22, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (5)
You have made it clear that you do not believe in the God of Abraham and therefore are not concerned with Moses and the burning bush, much less the time of the event.
I certainly don't care about the date.
Mar 22, 2011
Rank: 3.9 / 5 (7)
Of course you aren't. Indeed you must AVOID thinking about the date at any cost. Such as evading all question you find might lead to thinking about it. After all if you deal with the date you will be confronted with the reality that the time makes no sense at all. Especially the time of the Flood.
So since you evaded again I have to ask again.
More
Mar 22, 2011
Rank: 3.7 / 5 (6)
But when did you think this non-event occurred? In years BC please. You can give a error spread if you want. If you can't give a date within a reasonable error spread than you simply don't know what you are talking about.
Please note that last part. You don't know what you are talking about if you don't know WHEN IT HAPPENED. So when did it happen?
You could actually answer a for once. You could quit instead quit spewing your fantasy based posts which is why I ask the questions that are straining your brain. The strain is from holding contradictory ideas.
Ethelred
Mar 22, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (4)
I am not a bible historian and don't care to become one. Neither do I care to disabuse you of your misconceptions. I have no desire to "save" you. You nay continue to hate God as long as you wish.
Mar 22, 2011
Rank: 3.4 / 5 (5)
There are rather a lot of them. But Genesis one and two is more than enough to show the Bible does not match reality.
Of course not. Most of them aren't fundamentalists.
I have yet to see to see you show where I have a misconception. I go on what is written in the Bible and the physical evidence of the world around us. I am NOT going on the Dogma you keep ranting about. Just the actual words in the Bible.
Pretty sure Jesus wouldn't like that. Not a matter of Dogma.
Again. I can't hate something that does not exist.
Remember what I said about losing tempers. You have lost yours.
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Mar 22, 2011
Rank: 3.4 / 5 (5)
Either go away or start dealing with the questions. Or you can just keep telling lies about me which I suspect is against your beliefs yet you keep doing it. Please tell me if this is the misconception you think I have. Perhaps you are a member of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Its OK by their thinking to tell lies to non-believers.
Ethelred
Mar 22, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (5)
Mar 22, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (4)
Mar 22, 2011
Rank: 3.5 / 5 (8)
Here you have no trappings, no steeples, no vestments, no raiments, no pulpits, no icons. Here we have the book firsthand and can quote it in direct response to your deceptions. Makes it easier to expose your nonsense for what it is.
Here we win and you lose, whether you realize it or not. Hurry back.
Mar 22, 2011
Rank: 3.9 / 5 (7)
Liar. You have been playing games on this site since you started. You went to considerable effort to avoid committing yourself. You even bragged that there was no evidence. But I found it anyway. You lost the game. So now you are lying about playing games to go along with all the other lies.
Fine. Then don't complain when we point out that you are wrong. You are irrelevant unless you can you can give some support to your statements.
Of course not. BUT I don't need YOUR to point out your continued errors and total lack of guts.
SO...
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Mar 22, 2011
Rank: 3.9 / 5 (7)
The questions ARE relevant. Ignoring them won't make them go away. Indeed they are the heart of the matter as long as you insist on pitting unsupportable faith against reality in discussions on a science site.
I don't go to religious sites to spam them with reality. Please do the same for us realists.
Remember, Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Ethelred
Mar 22, 2011
Rank: not rated yet
Mar 22, 2011
Rank: 3.4 / 5 (5)
Mar 23, 2011
Rank: 3 / 5 (2)
That is not an astronomical comment.
That is a cosmological comment.
Probably all hot and puffy, or even inflationary - and size depends on a yardstick.
lol Plaintiff is leading the defendant, your Honor. Objection! :)
Mar 23, 2011
Rank: 3.4 / 5 (5)
Them there three people that ware partyin on ther website we all ur arguing on. They all warn't warshin theys hands. I warz sayin they alls shoulds be treatings each ither liek they warnt to be traited ifin theys expectorates being traited wells themselvs. Ist thart clear nuff fer yer?
hush1
So if I use a meter stick then all I get is music and not a size. No wonder the girls laugh at me when I say it's 12 notes long.
EthelBobJonBillyRed
Mar 23, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
lol Priceless. Even for my Swiss colleagues. Unbezahlbar.
Mar 23, 2011
Rank: 2.3 / 5 (3)
It seems to me that common experience decoheres within inflating probabilities in "real time" through the agency of environmentally induced superselection (einselection). This superselecting environment includes everything perceivable, as well as perception itself. Any notion of "free will" on the part of organically evolving perceivers must somehow influence the autonomic process of einselecting decoherence. To obviate shear determinism, the intent of the perceiver must influence the evolution of the universal superposition (cf. Hartle-Hawking No Boundary Proposal) upon which decoherence operates.
Even if individual intent does exert such an influence, the question remains as to whether the arising of intent within this endless feedback loop is similarly autonomic.
Mar 23, 2011
Rank: 3.3 / 5 (7)
Once freud established the concept of an unconscious mind, the possibility of free will evaporated. Genetics, behaviorism, cognitive and evolutionary psychology blew the vapors away. Your word spaghetti is annoying.
Mar 23, 2011
Rank: 3 / 5 (4)
Eigenstates
Kant
Quantum entanglement
42
Einstein said
Godel's Proof
Noumenon - the word or the physorg member
Manifold
a priori
transcendental
The University of Wallamalu
Weltanschauung
Obfuscate
Bayesian
Always use German when there is a perfectly good word in English. English has far too many words so the needless use of a more convoluted language is a great way to make things less clear. Especially when clarity could be disastrous. Keep in mind that when the Der Kaiser ist nackt it is best to remain opaque.
Ethelred
Mar 23, 2011
Rank: 3 / 5 (4)
And you consider Freud to be an unimpeachable authority on anything, anything at all. He created a brand new field of human knowledge. Unfortunately it started on a basis of purest crap. Freud is important. Both for founding that new field and for holding it back by many decades.
The technical term for that is Horseshit. Quantum uncertainty blows all that away by destroying the whole idea of a mechanical universe with a future that is set in stone at the start.
Its funny. You need an elbow transplant.
OK if he actually thought it needed to be written that way it's annoying. I am assuming that it was intentionally obfuscatory for satirical purposes.
Ethelred
Mar 24, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (1)
Mar 24, 2011
Rank: 3.4 / 5 (5)
Mar 24, 2011
Rank: 3.7 / 5 (6)
Mar 24, 2011
Rank: 3 / 5 (4)
Mar 25, 2011
Rank: not rated yet
Mar 25, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (1)
You need, however, the AC to prove that a certain ("Stone-Cech") compactification is possible for any given topological space.
An axiom is _defined_ to be a proposition which cannot be deduced from other propositions. Thus, it is not _assumed_ to be true. Rather, it is _set_ to be true.
A whole branch of mathematics ("constructivism") rejects the AC (which does _not_ mean the AC is assumed to be false) as it allows to deal with objects that are proven to exist without being able to uniquely determine their structure.
Which leads to quite counter-intuitive results like the Banach-Tarski paradox.
Mar 28, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (1)
Firstly, sorry, been offline for a couple of days hence not replying sooner.
Secondly, your point is quite right IMHO. There is no reason to assume that anyone witnessed either the creator-being actually doing the creating nor that they were magically handed evidence by her/him/it. (Why believe what they say anyway, without proof?)
These are all simply (and literally) creation myths of primitive tribes-people. Any proofs would have to proceed from first principles and including some form of empirical evidence to back-up the truth of the assertion.
(Unless of course someone makes a time machine and actually sees any of this happening and can record it. I look forward to seeing this!)
Mar 28, 2011
Rank: 5 / 5 (2)
But what you are now advocating is simply a shift from theism (belief in a personal - usually anthropomorphised - creator) to deism (belief in some extra-universal super-being that created the universe but takes no personal interest in us).
I cannot see any justification for the former belief and can't see any reason to require the second. While it's true that physics can't yet provide a proof of how the universe came to be, it seems to me that it can provide enough rational argument from just milliseconds after that coming into being happened, that the putative deistic entity is probably not needed.
You may find "The Evolution of God" by Robert Wright interesting, as he works through many of the arguments on these points. He also discusses at length just where and how the Hebrew, Christian and Muslim holy books fail of explanation and historical accuracy.
Mar 28, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
Randomness, at least of the quantum variety, gives at the least an opportunity for choice. Yes there are constraints on choice but in no way is that the same as not having a choice.
Then again I tend to towards the Many Worlds Model of uncertainty which means you would make EVERY possible choice. The key there is POSSIBLE. Just because a person has the opportunity do any particular thing that does not mean they will do so in ANY world.
Ethelred
Mar 30, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
Dunno.
"Rather, it is _set_ to be true."
Yes. That is the assumption.
The axiom is _set_to be true.
The axiom is _assumed_ to be true.
As far as mathematical research and study are concerned, the statements are equivalent.
I can not unravel the difference in meaning of both statements. Can you pinpoint the subtlety exactly, and describe the consequences in treating the statements differently?
Mar 30, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
The constructive's "rejection" is as good as saying:
"We don't care what is "set" (or assumed).
"AC allows to deal with objects that are proven to exist without being able to uniquely determine their structure."
Those "objects" neither restrict nor enhance "a whole branch of mathematics".
A "constructionist" sees a purpose in rejection.
The "object's" existence is not questioned.
The "object's" consistency with "constructivism" underlies (temporary) rejection. To extend mathematical research and study, "setting" or "assuming" or "rejecting" has no immediate consequence to extending the reaches of mathematics.
Yes, of course, paradoxes are sources of inspiration and motivation. No less so for consistency, as well. Math continues on all fronts - whether the progress comes from AC or not.
Mar 30, 2011
Rank: 3 / 5 (2)
lol
I am bias. The more languages you know, the less chance there is to say something, without reflecting on the meaning of their translations. So who needs translation when there is no better substitute for the original? You can't be sure of the original, before knowing all of the substitutes.
To be sure, though, I'm offering no excuses for Otto's ballpark German. ;)
Mar 31, 2011
Rank: not rated yet
Scenario A:
I find an archaeological figure, centuries old, no color visible. Ancient scriptures tell me that this is a statue of a goddess which used to be painted black and gold. Therefore, I _assume_ the thing had been black and gold originally well aware this assumption could be wrong.
Scenario B:
I'm a sculptor and I've just created a statue of an ancient goddess. Today I'll paint it black and gold as the old scriptures demand. Thus, I've _set_ the colors and, whatever happens to that piece of art, I'll know its original colors; no assumption needed.
It's philosophical: Are the propositions of maths existing a priori or constructed by humans?
Mar 31, 2011
Rank: 2.3 / 5 (3)
Human ideas can be mistaken. Only testing tell us what is real in this universe. However I have never seen anything that implies that there can be universes without logic that is the same as this one. Humans CAN think of things that aren't real but so far I have yet to hear of anyone creating a system of logic that cannot produce numbers. I don't think it can be done since need for a system implies a set of axioms and rules that is more than a single statement.
For instance, of the top of my head, I think the bare minimum of any system of logic
IS
IS NOT
And there you have two statements 0 and 1. Or 1 and 2 which implies 3 and dividing 3 by 2 produces non-integers.
Ethelred
Mar 31, 2011
Rank: not rated yet
Constructivists require that "one must be able to construct, in an explicit and canonical manner, anything that is proven to exist". (Wikipedia)
An object that cannot be constructed explicitly is not existing in constructivism.
Mar 31, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
What a beautiful language. The language is human.
Mar 31, 2011
Rank: 1 / 5 (1)
"to assume".
"to set" assumes a will. A human will. Regardless, if 'free' or not.
Whether principles always exist or existed is secondary.
Only our - and our only - assumption:
We have will, is primary.
The will "to set" principles.
Always motivating, are your words and comments. Thanks.