Oldest fossils ever found may not be fossils after all

Atheists:

People so desperate to be a meaningless pile of goo.

What on earth has this article got to do with theism, or lack thereof?

QC is desperate to jam his god into a gap. He seems to have a very tiny god. Maybe that is why Fundamentalists sometimes spell it as G-D. They may be preparing to fold it into a smaller gap.

I never trusted those possible fossils myself. Later stuff has actual cells. That stuff is intriguing though. May still be fossil stromatolites. The odds aren't as good now.

So QC are you into YEC or OEC Creationism? Never did get it straight with you as you are pretty adamant about Evolution for an OEC. Do you believe in the Flood? If so when was it? And how do you deal with all those galaxies we keep discussing if you are a YEC?

I find it interesting how so many of the Creationists keep trying to pretend they are not really fundamentalists. Seems immoral to me.

Ethelred

Oh, the instant I even saw the title of this article I knew what was going to happen in the comments section. I wasn't really thinking that QC would be the first to snap at the bait, but I wasn't surprised.

What must it be like, what must it BE like, to go through life pontificating about nothing much at all to nobody in particular with no effect but to look silly?

So QC are you into YEC or OEC Creationism? Never did get it straight with you as you are pretty adamant about Evolution for an OEC. Do you believe in the Flood? If so when was it? And how do you deal with all those galaxies we keep discussing if you are a YEC?

In what way would galaxies contradict any manner of creation? What part of "Omnipotent" didn't you get?

It is difficult to put an exact timing on the flood because there are gaps in the records.

*gasp* we don't know everything, other than the fact that it had to have happened relatively recently, else it would have been forgotten. Instead, variations of oral and written records of this event persist in almost all cultures which had obviously spread out after the tower of Babel incident.

*gasp* we don't know everything, [claims to know everything].

I love it when the religious do this.

You better hope your god is omnipotent because those gaps just get smaller and smaller. I guess the Planck scale isn't a barrier to Him though.

Listening to creationists talk about science is like reading a book titled THE TRUE FACTS ABOUT DOGS -- written by Furball the Cat.

In what way would galaxies contradict any manner of creation?

They are more than 10,000 light years away and thus we could not see them if the Universe is less then 10,000 years old. This should be obvious.

What part of "Omnipotent" didn't you get?

What part of not trusting a liar don't you get?Not calling YOU a liar. YOU are calling your god a liar. If the Bible and the Universe don't match, and they don't, then at least one of those must be falsified. Which is the false one? A book written by men or the entire Universe. Simpler to assume men made up the Bible as they wrote it.

It is difficult to put an exact timing on the flood because there are gaps in the records.

Not really. Many people have worked out an answer. All the ones that can back it up with actual information from the Bible hit in the range of 4200BC plus or minus about 200 years.

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Instead, variations of oral and written records of this event persist in almost all cultures which had obviously spread out after the tower of Babel incident.

Which is another problem. The Babel story just adds to the time problem with the Flood vs actual history.

Ethelred
ryggesogn2 AKA Marjon on the Somali pirates.

The pirates are charging tolls for ships to cross their waters.

This stays till the end of the month when there is room.

It is difficult to put an exact timing on the flood because there are gaps in the records.

*gasp* we don't know everything, other than the fact that it had to have happened relatively recently, else it would have been forgotten. Instead, variations of oral and written records of this event persist in almost all cultures which had obviously spread out after the tower of Babel incident.

The Australian Aboriginals - who have continuously inhabited the continent for at least 30,000 years - have a central myth, the 'Rainbow Serpent'. This is the longest-lasting continous belief known - there is evidence that the belief was extant at least 8,000 years ago.

So, funny how the Aboriginal peoples were all wiped out something 4,000 years ago, without realising it, and with no apparent break in their fairly unique culture - with the rainbow Serpent myth a case in point.

And needless to say, without the slightest scrap of evidence that Australia was very recently underwater!

Atheists:
People so desperate to be a meaningless pile of goo.

What does this have to do with atheism? Plenty of Christians are evolutionists, probably majority. Not to mention other faiths.

Young Earth creationists are like those peasants in the middle ages that could not understant that the Earth is in fact, round. Funny and sad at the same time.

In other words, the previous researcher was wrong in his analysis?

Atheists:

People so desperate to be a meaningless pile of goo.

You don't get to decide whether other people can or can't have meaningful lives.

Dont encourage him. QC has become a troll.

Yes, because a bunch of farmers and peasants would know the difference between a "biblical flood", and say, a tsunami caused by a meteorite or under-water seismic activity.

It's pretty easy to see how such people could come up with 'biblical flood' stories related to this un-expected and frightening natural occurance.

It annoys me when comments on this site always degenerate into arguments about creationists/evolutionists or democtrat/republican or religious/athiest etc. How about everyone reads the article and then makes educated comments about the article & the research for once?

It annoys me when comments on this site always degenerate into arguments about creationists/evolutionists or democtrat/republican or religious/athiest etc. How about everyone reads the article and then makes educated comments about the article & the research for once?

"Don't hold your breath."

Do you think people would be bickering like that if they didn't ENJOY it? It's not like it really accomplishes much besides an entertainment.

"It's a hobby, like trainspotting, but more like spotting train wrecks."

Yep, and the people bickering don't really appear to know much about the Book of Genesis or evolution. I'm still reading up on evolution, but I've read Genesis and its not even about the origin of man. Its about the origin of the Hebrews. Its very very brief about the origin of the earth and mankind. Oddly, it focuses a lot on lineage and descendants.

What part of not trusting a liar don't you get?Not calling YOU a liar. YOU are calling your god a liar. If the Bible and the Universe don't match, and they don't, then at least one of those must be falsified. Which is the false one? A book written by men or the entire Universe. Simpler to assume men made up the Bible as they wrote it.

I see that Ethelred has been reading from the Book of Otto. Although otto maybe says it a little more eloquently? :)

but I've read Genesis and its not even about the origin of man. Its about the origin of the Hebrews.

Actually it's about the Hebrews AND their enemies which is pretty much everybody else. The offspring mentioned who did not contribute to the holy line went on to found these enemy tribes. Some are obvious, some are not. People have taken great pains to link today's pops to these wannabes.

I liked the story of Noah better when it was called "The Story of Gilgamesh" it was set much earlier.

@otto-retard1923, waste of life, and faulse*, go read your bible in english???retard...i hae you

QC.....your my fav....hold true to your thoughts...no matter how ill-formed they are...good job QC!!!:):):):):)

@MRSbutterworth!!!,,,HAHAHAHAHA i love it,,, let see what these retards have to say about that....prolly somthing about jesus the time traveler!!!

I liked the story of Noah better when it was called "The Story of Gilgamesh" it was set much earlier.

Epic of Atrahasis is even older. Only downside on Gilgamesh is that Noah's vessel design would have been more stable vessel.

Knowing the time when life appeared on Earth may be useful in understanding how the Sun evolved.

See: "Neutron Repulsion" [The APEIRON Journal, 19 pages, in press, 2011]

arxiv.org/pdf/1102.1499v1

youtube.com/watch?v=sXNyLYSiPO0

With kind regards,
Oliver K. Manuel

We need to stop this before they start moderating again.

In other words, the previous researcher was wrong in his analysis?

Possibly. Never seemed all that solid in the first place it is supposed to a geological formation that is USUALLY created by bacteria and there are no actual bacterial cells nor is there any expectation that such cells could be in the formation.

Single celled life rarely leaves enough behind to fossilize. We KNOW that there was life pretty early as the iron that was in solution was being oxidized and free oxygen needs life to exist in any large quantity.

Yep, and the people bickering don't really appear to know much about the Book of Genesis or evolution.

Actually some of us do. I am pretty strong Exodus as well but after that I really see no need to read it except parts here and there just like many other books. Still haven't finished Origins for instance. Hard to maintain interest when I already know most of it. I read it when I can't find something else.

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I'm still reading up on evolution, but I've read Genesis and its not even about the origin of man.

It is usually thought of as Man's relationship with Jehovah but it DOES cover a mythical origin of Man.

Oddly, it focuses a lot on lineage and descendants.

What is odd is how much of that is about people that, if the Flood wasn't a myth, have no ancestors. MANY generations of ancestors of Cain. Somehow Grendel wasn't mentioned.

Ethelred
ryggesogn2 AKA Marjon on the Somali pirates.

The pirates are charging tolls for ships to cross their waters.

This stays till the end of the month when there is room.

How about everyone reads the article and then makes educated comments about the article & the research for once?

Where is the fun in that?

Do you think people would be bickering like that if they didn't ENJOY it?

Yes. I am pretty sure that OC does not enjoy this. Kevin can't really like having to run off all the time. How can Dogbert feel good when he keeps pretending to be something he isn't.

NOW Marjon clearly prefers this to farming. Farming must require too much reality for him.

It's not like it really accomplishes much besides an entertainment.

Every once in a while someone that was ignorant about science actually learns something real. That accomplishes something real as opposed to mere entertainment.

Ethelred
ryggesogn2 AKA Marjon on the Somali pirates.

The pirates are charging tolls for ships to cross their waters.

This stays till the end of the month when there is room.

Ethelred, sorry but I missed the pirate thing. To what are you referring?

Every once in a while someone that was ignorant about science actually learns something real. That accomplishes something real as opposed to mere entertainment.

Oh, is that the "mysterious neutral lurker" (who is obviously fascinated with endless bad-tempered squabbling) that we hear so much about? Sort of like Bigfoot ... but we have PICTURES of Bigfoot.

I concede that I have come up with some interesting insights in my arguments with crackpots. However, cracking the books would be a more productive use of time, and in the end it's still only justifiable on the basis of an entertainment. Even I can only crack the books for so long.

Could be worse. Look at the comment sections on YouTube.

@EthelRed

They are more than 10,000 light years away and thus we could not see them if the Universe is less then 10,000 years old. This should be obvious.

So please inform us, oh informed one, how come if the universe is about 15Billion years old and it has an estimated diameter of about 90BLY, that we have such a uniform radiation distribution in the CMB?
Obviously the big bang model has the same light travel problem you want to sing about.

@EthelRed

They are more than 10,000 light years away and thus we could not see them if the Universe is less then 10,000 years old. This should be obvious.

So please inform us, oh informed one, how come if the universe is about 15Billion years old and it has an estimated diameter of about 90BLY, that we have such a uniform radiation distribution in the CMB?
Obviously the big bang model has the same light travel problem you want to sing about.

CMB is the oldest light we can see, and it was emmited about 13 billion years ago, right after the big bang. There is no light travel problem in big bang model.

So please inform us, oh informed one, how come if the universe is about 15Billion years old and it has an estimated diameter of about 90BLY

90 bly is an extrapolated diameter of expanded observable universe in present time. About 14 billion is radius of observable universe, as seen by observation.

Ethelred, sorry but I missed the pirate thing. To what are you referring?

Marjon has this Fantasy of RandLand and I have pointed out to him that Somalia has exactly the kind of government he wants. None at all. After pretending I had never mentioned it many times he eventually, in a fit of political idiocy that is epic even by his standards, tried to claim that Somalia is a wonderful place better than its neighbors. So why hasn't he moved there?

I began to point out this WonderRandLand was funded by bloody handed piracy. After the usual 6 to 10 evasions he actually said this:

More after the break

Me

Any one else notice that Marjon has yet to acknowledge that Somalia is funded by Red Handed Piracy?

Marjon

It' not. But the pirates used to be fishermen. Chinese have over-fished Somalia's territorial waters.
The pirates are charging tolls for ships to cross their waters.

Apparently their waters extend for far more than the internationally accepted 200 mile economic zone and VASTLY farther than the 12 mile ownership zone. And of course there is that little matter of claiming that kidnapping, murder, ransom, and piracy on the high seas is somehow merely a toll.

Then he annoyed me by insisting on dragging his political crap into the skin color thread. So he won the Ethelred's Sig For a Month Award. He is the second winner. QubitTamer won it twice.

Ethelred
ryggesogn2 AKA Marjon on the Somali pirates.

The pirates are charging tolls for ships to cross their waters.

This stays till the end of the month when there is room.

Oh, is that the "mysterious neutral lurker" (who is obviously fascinated with endless bad-tempered squabbling) that we hear so much about?

I don't care about neutral lurkers. They don't effect us so they might as well not exist. JOIN IN YOU LURKERS or you will vanish in a puff of apathy.

Recently a guy, Agile_Mathew, seemed to have begun to question the Creationist viewpoint but he has gone walkies. It is pretty rare to even get that much.

I gave up bad temper myself. I prefer even tempered squabbling.

Look at the comment sections on YouTube.

If you look hard enough you will find a few posts by me there. 500 character limit shows that less is not always more and it scrolls of the screen too fast. Waste of time.

Ethelred
ryggesogn2 AKA Marjon on the Somali pirates.

The pirates are charging tolls for ships to cross their waters.

This stays till the end of the month when there is room.

So please inform us, oh informed one, how come if the universe is about 15Billion years old and it has an estimated diameter of about 90BLY, that we have such a uniform radiation distribution in the CMB?

Sure I'll answer that. As soon as you answer my question.

When was the flood Kevin? How long ago? An actual century will do. You don't need to go Ussher about it and give the time of the day as well as the month and the year. Surely you can produce at least as much precision as Ussher but the century will do.

Of course your question shows you don't know what you are talking about but I will be happy to clear that up for you. Ignorance is curable. Even moderate stupidity can be overcome by those that try hard enough.

Ethelred
ryggesogn2 AKA Marjon on the Somali pirates.

The pirates are charging tolls for ships to cross their waters.

This stays till the end of the month when there is room.

I prefer even tempered squabbling.

"Kill kill kill for peace" -- as they used to say Way Back When.

Atheists: People so desperate to be a meaningless pile of goo.

QC, ER, et al: Dogmatic scientists and dogmatic religionists are identical twins - hiding under different cloaks of respectability.

Dogmatic, arrogant certainty has no place in honest science or religion.

"Truthing" is a process of continuous discovery, via

a.) Science: Careful observations and experiments, or
b.) Spirituality: Quiet reflection, meditation or prayer.

"Truthing" is a path out of the ego cage.
"Truthing" generates humility and reverence.
"Truthing" may be the most sane way of living.

"Truthing" led caused Mahatma Gandhi to conclude:
“Truth is God. God alone is and nothing else exists.”

"Truthing" led me to these conclusions about creation:

youtube.com/watch?v=AQZe_Qk-q7M

youtube.com/watch?v=sXNyLYSiPO0

In what way would galaxies contradict any manner of creation?

They are more than 10,000 light years away and thus we could not see them if the Universe is less then 10,000 years old. This should be obvious.

What part of "Omnipotent" didn't you get?

No, Eth! Don't you understand??? Those photons didn't originate in those galaxies! It just LOOKS that way. GOD created all those photons IN TRANSIT 6000 yrs ago! Just like the strata and fossils.After all, the world has to LOOK logically consistent, otherwise what would be the point of faith? And oh by the way, you're going to hell. And so are your parents and your pets too. Except your dog. All dogs go to heaven.

Sorry to hear the retired American couple captured on their yacht by pirates where executed (murdered) yesterday.

Sorry to hear the retired American couple captured on their yacht by pirates where executed (murdered) yesterday.

I agree. Mahatma Gandhi recommended non-violence (ahimsa) as a way of life.

Atheists:

People so desperate to be a meaningless pile of goo.

Theist:
A meaningless pile of goo.

Dogmatic, arrogant certainty has no place in honest science or religion.

So why are you doing it so much? Hypocrisy is merely one of your minor flaws.

Truthing" is a process of continuous discovery, via

The discovery part is real.

a.) Science: Careful observations and experiments, or

Yes.

b.) Spirituality: Quiet reflection, meditation or prayer.

No. Assuming that prayer can lead to truth is assuming that a god exists and that is a not a path to truth unless a god DOES exist. I don't see evidence for a god.

So that was NOT a path to truth. It is a path that lead to you thinking the Sun is a neutron star. Which it cannot be as the smallest neutron star is LARGER than our Sun. And that is based on the Pauli-Exclusion Principle. If we add in YOUR fantasy of a long distance force of neutron repulsion neutron stars would be even larger than the present prediction.

"Truthing" is a path out of the ego cage.

You should try it then.

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"Truthing" generates humility and reverence.

Don't see why truth would lead to reverence but you really should try that humility part.

"Truthing" may be the most sane way of living.

Depends on what is meant by truthing as in your hands it looks like Double Speak.

"Truthing" led caused Mahatma Gandhi to conclude:
“Truth is God. God alone is and nothing else exists.”

Truth had nothing to do with that statement. Truth is what is real and the Universe exists whether a god does or not. There is no evidence either way so it isn't exactly scientific or truthful to assume that there is a god.

Ethelred

Unless Ghandi defined god as the universe ;]

Yes, Ethelred, I am flawed but working to change.

We may never have the whole Truth,
nor a complete understanding of God.

Can we accept that unpalatable fact?

Of course human knowledge will never be complete. I for one don't find that unpalatable in the slightest.

I love that old chinese(?) blessing: "may all your dreams come true, except one"

We may never have the whole Truth,

Don't expect it myself.

nor a complete understanding of God.

Hard to understand something for which there is no evidence of it's existence. We aren't likely to understand Xeno, Quetzalcoatl, or Ahuramazda either.

Can we accept that unpalatable fact?

I can. I have seen videos of both Carl Sagan and Richard Feynman, separately, discussing that they weren't likely to get the answers to all their questions.

I can accept the reality of it. I don't have to like it. I want the biochemists to quit frigging around and get to work on immortality. It is coming. Just a matter of time and that is what I want. More time. Heck if I get enough time I might learn how to spell sep-e-ratly correctly without using a spellcheck. I pronounce it with that E. Oh for the fixtenn hundredf in regard to fpelling.

Ethelred

This finding is important, because . . .

The evolution of life constrains solar models.

The SSM (standard solar model) predicts a faint early Sun and a frozen Earth.

The PCS* (pulsar centered star) model predicts a hotter Sun and a warmer Earth.

* arxiv.org/pdf/0905.0704

arxiv.org/pdf/1102.1499v1

With kind regards,
'Oliver K. Manuel

This finding is important, because . . .

It makes your idea even less likely. It implies that life started later which would be with a warmer Sun. I suspect that life got started early anyway. Even this article does not show that the formation was created by inorganic processes. It only says that the part of the formation that looked strongly like it was created by blue-green algae might have been formed another way. The iron in the formation implies that there was oxygen production already which is inidicitive of life.

The evolution of life constrains solar models.

Somewhat. For instance a Blue Giant is no going to support life.

The SSM (standard solar model) predicts a faint early Sun and a frozen Earth.

No. The early Earth would have been hot from both internal heat and high CO2 and H2O content in the air.

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Since we have pretty good evidence that the Earth was subject to a MAJOR whacking the reheated and sterilized the planet while creating the Moon we have the Earth being reheated in the early period. After that there was nearly twice the heat from uranium decay then we have now. By then the Sun was bit hotter. Even at the start, 4.5 billion years ago it would have produced 70 percent of it present energy. When life got started it would have been producing 75 or so with much higher amounts of greenhouse gasses.

Plus there is physical evidence the that we DID have a snowball Earth with a broad band at the equator unfrozen.

The PCS* (pulsar centered star) model predicts a hotter Sun and a warmer Earth.

Which would fail to produce the snowball evidence that does exist. The evidence isn't certain but there is enough to make it more likely than an Earth that did not have a snowball stage. Early life on Earth was not very active. That seems to come in the last billion years.

Ethelred

Heck if I get enough time I might learn how to spell sep-e-ratly correctly without using a spellcheck.

It's easy when one remembers that separate is derived from the Latin verb parare - like compare and prepare.

kevinrtr...

So please inform us, oh informed one, how come if the universe is about 15Billion years old and it has an estimated diameter of about 90BLY, that we have such a uniform radiation distribution in the CMB?
Obviously the big bang model has the same light travel problem you want to sing about.

one f the very few times you raise an interesting question.