Czech gender-bending family puzzles sex experts

While I accept people changing their gender, getting married, having children, and all, I must admit I was disgusted and had to skip reading this article. Still, best wishes and good luck to these guys.

I must admit I was disgusted

I can't understand how this could be disgusting.

It's a shame that people feel disgust over what is basically just a collection of cosmetic procedures and a change in lifestyle. We make far too much fuss about the shape of bits of cloth that people choose to wrap themselves in and the arrangement of syllables with which they choose to be addressed. But good luck to those to recognise the irrationality of this prejudice and strive to take a rational, civilised approach nonetheless.

Regarding the issues of genetics, there is also significant evidence suggesting that trends in gene expression, not just inheritance, may be a factor in transgender conditions; these and other factors, including the effect of hormones on developing structures in the body and/or brain, mean that we shouldn't expect a simple, neat explanation. It's important that transgender people are respected for who they are, not simply treated as a collection of symptoms.

But a boy named Radim, whom Dominik gave birth to 25 years ago, makes their family even more special -- he is now becoming a woman named Viktoria.

No wonder homo sapiens sapiens is devolving. We now not only allow, but spend millions in treasure, to ensure that individuals with bizarre genes that would be selected out of the gene pool by evolution to instead reproduce and weaken it further.

No wonder homo sapiens sapiens is devolving. We now not only allow, but spend millions in treasure, to ensure that individuals with bizarre genes that would be selected out of the gene pool by evolution to instead reproduce and weaken it further.

This just serves to show how ignorant you are. Seriously. These are some of the strongest and bravest people. Think about it. Think about the turmoil they've had to endure.

No wonder homo sapiens is devolving. We now not only allow, but spend millions in treasure, to ensure that individuals with bizarre genes that would be selected out of the gene pool by evolution to instead reproduce and weaken it further.

Well, if you want to take this approach, then lets discuss cancer, diabetes, herpes, HIV/aids, Lou Gehrig's, Lupus, etc.

What I find funny is that society determines that if a man wants to become a woman all he needs to do is have cosmetic changes to his genitals, plus a few hormone treatments and then dress/act like a woman then BAM - he is a woman.

He still has the Y chromosome in his genes, he will never have a womb or be able to get pregnant which are fundamental characteristics of a female. The same thing applies vice versa - a woman will never be able to have a Y chromosome or functioning testes & produce sperm.

IMHO there is no such thing as a sex change - only becoming weird and mutilating your genitals.

IMHO there is no such thing as a sex change - only becoming weird and mutilating your genitals.

I pretty much agree here.

All in all, I find it highly disgusting.

How can society protect children from their parents? We either allow weirdoes to raise and distort kids in ways that most would consider child abuse, or we try and get the government to step in and "protect" the kids? Where does that stop.

We are in a loose loose situation. Either you can't protect the children, or by protecting them you go to far and hurt society in the long run.

Perhaps we won't have a choice. Eventually the government will have a say in whether you get to have children or not. 7 billion and counting.

if a man wants to become a woman all he needs to do is have cosmetic changes to his genitals, plus a few hormone treatments and then dress/act like a woman

Why don't you just ask someone who feels like he/she has got the wrong body? Why don't you for one moment have the empathy that this could be a horrible situation? If you don't understand something you should listen and ask and try to learn but not disparage the unknown.

then BAM - he is a woman.

Which shows that you don't understand. No, she was a woman before, but unfortunately had the wrong body.

He still has the Y chromosome in his genes, he will never have a womb or be able to get pregnant which are fundamental characteristics of a female.

You are wrong; it's not fundamental. As humans, we are not defined solely by our body; we have feelings, we have behavior, we have empathy, we have an inner identity which is not always represented by our outer appearance.

All in all, I find it highly disgusting.

The only disgusting thing here is the obscenity to publicly display your lack of empathy.

How can you be sure that any particular man has a Y chromosome? Have you checked? A significant percentage of people don't have the combination of sex characteristics (chromosomes, gonads, hormone levels, external genitalia, etc.) that you might expect. This substantiates the argument that we should identify people based on what they are able to tell us about their subjective experience, not on the appearance of their bodies.

How do you know what sex you are? The chances are that you simply accept what you've always been told. What you have been told was almost certainly based on a two minute assessment by the doctor supervising your birth. No complex tests will have been involved in that, just a quick visual impression. If you feel perfectly comfortable with that sex, then even though it's possible that the reality is more complicated, there's no reason to argue. If you don't feel comfortable, why should you be forced to endure living your life on somebody else's terms?

In addendum, many women whose sex is never disputed do not have wombs. Many women can never get pregnant. Many men don't produce sperm. Does that make them less valuable as human beings? It's not usual to think so.

If you read this article properly, you'll see that Mr Sejda separated from his family when he changed his social gender, so there is no reason to assume that his circumstances influenced his daughter's later decision to transition. The article itself notes that there is very little evidence of transsexualism running in families. It is therefore not only politically dubious but also scientifically invalid to assume that the transsexualism of parents influences the gender identity of children. There is no evidence that children suffer from having transsexual parents except where they become targets for external prejudice, and that problem lies with society - specifically, with people like some of you here.

He still has the Y chromosome in his genes, he will never have a womb or be able to get pregnant which are fundamental characteristics of a female. The same thing applies vice versa - a woman will never be able to have a Y chromosome or functioning testes & produce sperm.

*Sigh* So much ignorance, so little time.

PATIENTS: A 46,XY mother who developed as a normal woman underwent spontaneous puberty, reached menarche, menstruated regularly, experienced two unassisted pregnancies, and gave birth to a 46,XY daughter with complete gonadal dysgenesis. -- J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2008 Jan;93(1):182-9.

I'm one of the few biological females who has fathered a child (though obviously that took technical help). We're rare - but not unknown.

*Sigh* So much ignorance, so little time.

I don't like being ignorant - please explain what I am missing. I do understand that people might 'feel' like the opposite sex, or that their physical body doesn't match their inner identity (as frajo puts it), and I do have sympathy for these people because it must be awful.

I still have the opinion though that a person's gender is what they are born with, in a physical sense. It's unfortunate when their mind/feelings don't match, but in this case I believe that's something wrong with their mental state instead of their physical state.

I still have the opinion though that a person's gender is what they are born with, in a physical sense. It's unfortunate when their mind/feelings don't match, but in this case I believe that's something wrong with their mental state instead of their physical state.

But you know that there are XXY cases, hermaphrodites, bodies which are not easily definable within the conventional gender stereotypes?
Apart from those cases - yes, you could say the body is right and the brain is wrong. But it should be up to the owner of body and brain to decide about his/her identity.
And although there's much gossip about brainwashing procedures - in these cases it doesn't really work. Otherwise environmental pressure would never allow anybody to reach at the conclusion to change gender.

To be precise: There are lots of people who don't feel well with their stereotype gender roles but behave in intermediate ways. In fact, most of us. It's a Gaussian distribution instead of a binary question.

I think part of the problem here goes back to the old notion of the ghost in the machine. We tend to think of the brain as somehow inhabiting the body yet not a real part of it, and more malleable. Science tells us otherwise. The brain is _part_ of the body and there are aspects of it which cannot be restructured after birth. There is increasing evidence that gender identity, at least in some cases, is one of these areas. So we're not talking about people developing odd notions about their identity - we're talking about different aspects of the body sending different signals about that identity.

When this happens, it makes sense to focus on what can be changed - physical appearance - to make a person comfortable. We usually like to tell each other that beauty is only skin deep, that it's personality that counts, etc. - so why can't we accept people's own experienced gender identity on this basis?

To go back to the notion of 'bad genes' referenced earlier, I'd just like to note that this illustrates a misunderstanding of genetics and the mechanics of inheritance. Aside from the lack of evidence for a genetic cause of transsexualism, it's naive and arrogant to think that we should be trying to 'weed out' genes. Evolution does a very good job of that by itself. Genetic variation within a population is generally a very good thing as it enables that population to adapt more effectively to changing environmental pressures.

The mechanics of neonatal development in humans are highly complex and allow several ways for males or females to develop. This complexity is almost certainly a component cause in many cases of transsexualism. It's a really good thing because it means, for instance, that we could easily evolve to shift the ratio of males to females if we needed to. We should celebrate our diversity as indicative of great survival potential.

I still have the opinion though that a person's gender is what they are born with, in a physical sense. It's unfortunate when their mind/feelings don't match, but in this case I believe that's something wrong with their mental state instead of their physical state.

You're confusing objective reproductive chacteristics with subjective gender identification. They aren't necessarily the same thing.

Sex:
1. a. The property or quality by which organisms are classified as female or male on the basis of their reproductive organs and functions.

Gender:
2. Sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture.

Source: http:/www.thefreedictionary.com

I don't like being ignorant - please explain what I am missing. ...I still have the opinion though that a person's gender is what they are born with, in a physical sense.

Right-ish.

See
"A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality" by Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70.
"Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals..."

That basically says it all. Transsexuality is an Intersex condition, caused by having the anatomy of a woman in some of the body, the anatomy of a man in the rest.

When the brain is anatomically female, so's the person, regardless of the rest - which may be male, female, or somewhere in between in Intersex cases.

The condition(s) that cause this take effect before birth, at around 26 weeks in fact, according to autopsies of miscarried children.

No wonder homo sapiens sapiens is devolving. We now not only allow, but spend millions in treasure, to ensure that individuals with bizarre genes that would be selected out of the gene pool by evolution to instead reproduce and weaken it further. -geokastr

What an ignorant and misinformed view of population genetics. You assume these genes will have a deleterious affect on the population without offering any proof. No species has ever been threatened by having a large, genetically diverse population. In fact quite the reverse is true. You should be worried as your own species, Sus scrofa domesticus, is highly inbred.

I'm going to get hounded down for this, but...I've wondered for some time why it has been deemed so important that we all strive to accept these people who had obviously refused to accept themselves in the first place.

I'm going to get hounded down for this, but...I've wondered for some time why it has been deemed so important that we all strive to accept these people who had obviously refused to accept themselves in the first place.

Because it's the right thing to do.

Okay, maybe I phrased that the wrong way. I meant why is there so much emphasis that we understand and actively encourage this behaviour of altering one's sexual organs, when in all other areas of human identity individuals are instead encouraged to accept themselves for who and what they are? For instance, people who try to alter their racial appearance by bleaching their skin, or people who try to alter their cosmetic appearance with plastic surgery such as liposuction, are generally discouraged. They are encouraged to drop their desire to change and instead embrace themselves for the way they are.

Okay, maybe I phrased that the wrong way. I meant why is there so much emphasis that we understand and actively encourage this behaviour of altering one's sexual organs, when in all other areas of human identity individuals are instead encouraged to accept themselves for who and what they are? For instance, people who try to alter their racial appearance by bleaching their skin, or people who try to alter their cosmetic appearance with plastic surgery such as liposuction, are generally discouraged. They are encouraged to drop their desire to change and instead embrace themselves for the way they are.

Well, as popular as plastic surgery is these days, I don't know that's necessarily true.

Body image is a problem for a lot of people, and a lot of people take steps to make corrections. Everything from fashion and grooming choices to tattoos, piercings, and surgery.

I don't see this as being substantively different. It's simply, "all of the above" (so to speak).

I've wondered for some time why it has been deemed so important that we all strive to accept these people who had obviously refused to accept themselves in the first place.

It's the notion of "themselves" which is key here.
Is your "self" defined by your body? Many people think so and fall prey to the business of plastic surgery.
Or is the "self" defined by your mind? By your never ceasing longing to be able to behave like the "other" gender without embarrassment?
It's a fallacy to define one's self by one's body only. Emotions (psyche) and ratio (nous) are as important as the body (soma) to define one's whole self.

It's the notion of "themselves" which is key here.
Is your "self" defined by your body? Many people think so and fall prey to the business of plastic surgery.
Or is the "self" defined by your mind? By your never ceasing longing to be able to behave like the "other" gender without embarrassment?
It's a fallacy to define one's self by one's body only. Emotions (psyche) and ratio (nous) are as important as the body (soma) to define one's whole self.

Okay, fair point. Thanks.

mind? By your never ceasing longing to be able to behave like the "other" gender without embarrassment?

You seem privy to the lyrical philo fallacy that the 'mind' can operate separate from the body, which it cannot. Emotions and the other thing (nous?) originate with the composition and structure of the body. A 'never ceasing longing' can originate from a hormonal imbalance, or from a pathological fixation, among other things. This 'longing' to be female could be corrected and totally alleviated, perhaps, with hormone treatments which make the person wholly male in keeping with the equipment they were born with. Where would the psyche/nous be then?

We are the sum total of our structure and chemistry which is determined by our genes and our environment and their interaction over the course of our lives. There is no metaphysical, no soul, no 'free will', no nothing like that crap whatsoever.

We are the sum total of our structure and chemistry which is determined by our genes and our environment and their interaction over the course of our lives. There is no metaphysical, no soul, no 'free will', no nothing like that crap whatsoever.

Interesting talk coming from a guy named "TheGhostofOtto1923".

We are the sum total of our structure and chemistry which is determined by our genes and our environment and their interaction over the course of our lives. There is no metaphysical, no soul, no 'free will', no nothing like that crap whatsoever.

Interesting talk coming from a guy named "TheGhostofOtto1923".

Resurrection is only possible with virtual people.

Hey Frajo. Science has discovered your 'nous' thingy. Dingsbums. Is NOTHING sacred??? (nope.)
http
://www.physorg.com/news/2011-02-scientists-tangle-neurons-aggression.html