Activists, Japan whalers clash in Southern Ocean

Viva Sea Shepherd! The most worthwhile people on the planet!

What we really need to bring this immoral and illegal whaling to a final halt is a national boycott on Japanese goods. This crap has gone on long enough. If enough people join me in this, we can force the whalers to stop.

I love how people can get all excited about saving whales, and then go eat a hamburger or the like... Brains are seemingly in short supply these days.

Viva Sea Shepherd! The most worthwhile people on the planet!

What we really need to bring this immoral and illegal whaling to a final halt is a national boycott on Japanese goods. This crap has gone on long enough. If enough people join me in this, we can force the whalers to stop.

Why?

If you can prove cetaceans are sentient or even (dare I say it?) endangered, I'll be more than happy to back your play, otherwise, meat is meat.

I always got a chuckle out of the Sea Shepherd and their crew. How they act like such "tough asses" when in actuality they are a bunch of Pu**sies! However, that being said, in the end what they do is admirable. If they are indeed protecting an "endangered" animal that is being hunted to near extinction then more power to them.

As far as "meat is meat", sure it is. But that is an issue for society to deal with. I myself love meat and will eat anything that I think tastes good. If whale is on the menu somewhere and it is NOT endangered, then great, eat away. Again.. providing it is not an endangered animal. Cows are not in danger of being extinct anytime soon, there in lies the difference.

Cows are not in danger of being extinct anytime soon

Given that they are one of the biggest sources of greenhouse gases, how long before the there is a multi-billion dollar Federal EPA - Division of Bovine Eructation and Flatulence Control. They'll have the authority to develop standards for Cow Average Flatulence and Eructation (CAFE II), and the power to fine the cows if they don't comply.

Pretty bad when you see footage of the whales families crying and mournng. Agree with Parsec - Lets boycott the Japs. Might have to volunteer next summer, be good fun defeating those murderers in our oceans - WHy don't they go hunt in there own waters - oh wait - they can't as they've already killed everything

Pretty bad when you see footage of the whales families crying and mournng.

And a bovine calf will mewl for its mother. Part of being a mammal, I suspect. However, such behavior doesn't put me off eating, hunting or butchering meat.

If you can prove cetaceans are sentient or even (dare I say it?) endangered, I'll be more than happy to back your play, otherwise, meat is meat.

There are two sides to the human mind, and you only appeal to the rational side here. Any who are open to their softer side experience a non-rational intuitive "knowing" that whales are special, even if that's just some type of abstract symbolism, it is not right to deny it completely.

Innate human morality is non-rational, but it's a part of us which we too often deny. This is the problem, at large, with trying to rigidly define and rationalize morality - it can't be done, despite Kant's valiant efforts.

We KNOW whales are special - we see a spark of spirit and greatness in them. I won't apologize for that to your rationalist tyranny.

The balanced human mind is a dialectic between rational and non-rational inclinations. I'm sorry if you can't understand that.

Insensitive and proud of it.

Highly recommend reading, for all you hardcore rationalists: The Master and His Emissary, by Iain McGilchrist. See review here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/jan/02/1

"This is a very remarkable book. It is not (as some reviewers seem to think) just one more glorification of feeling at the expense of thought. Rather, it points out the complexity, the divided nature of thought itself and asks about its connection with the structure of the brain."

Fact: most people who eat meat would stop if they had to raise the cow themselves, and the pig, and the chicken, to see up close how each animal has a unique sentient personality (you recognize the kinship in the dogs you love and could not eat them unless you had to), then to cut the throat of your friends, hang them by hooks (except for the chicken), rip off their skin, scoop out the intestines and the rest. Then chop up the muscles, wrap them in butcher paper, throw them in the freezer.

Meat eaters who cannot do all of the above have not earned the right to eat meat.

Fact: most people who eat meat would stop if they had to raise the cow themselves,. . .
Meat eaters who cannot do all of the above have not earned the right to eat meat.

Been there, done that, got a T-shirt. Long line of hunters, fishers, farmers and cattlemen. I remember helping my great grandmother, skim the cream off the cows she milked, make cheese and clabber. Hat's off to anyone who knows what clabber is w/o resorting to google or wiki.

And no, not everyone lives in a rural area. Meat has been "what's for dinner" since before Old Neander. Humans eating meat is as normal as Mom, apple pie and baseball.

Fact: most people who eat meat would stop if they had to raise the cow themselves,. . .
Meat eaters who cannot do all of the above have not earned the right to eat meat.

Been there, done that, got a T-shirt. Long line of hunters, fishers, farmers and cattlemen. I remember helping my great grandmother, skim the cream off the milk, make cheese and clabber. Hat's off to anyone who knows what clabber is w/o resorting to google or wiki.

And no, not everyone lives in a rural area. Meat has been "what's for dinner" since long before Old Neander. Humans eating meat is as normal as Mom, apple pie and baseball. Thank the Great Maker for butchers, bakers and grocerymen.

Fiction: most people who eat meat would stop if they had to raise the cow themselves, and the pig, and the chicken, to see up close how each animal has a unique sentient personality...

If you can prove cetaceans are sentient or even (dare I say it?) endangered, I'll be more than happy to back your play, otherwise, meat is meat.

So you're fine if a bunch of us get together and torture you to death when you fail to prove to us that YOU'RE sentient? Meat is meat, eh?

If you can prove cetaceans are sentient or even (dare I say it?) endangered, I'll be more than happy to back your play, otherwise, meat is meat.

So you're fine if a bunch of us get together and torture you to death when you fail to prove to us that YOU'RE sentient? Meat is meat, eh?

Sure.

However, I can solve a quadratic equation, write (bad) haiku and laugh at Moe Howard. Can the meat claim the same?

You wanna be all vegan? Great, more for me.

What the Japanese whalers are doing is detestable for many reasons, not least because they're (brutally) slaughtering intelligent, social and empathic animals, but also that they're doing so illegally by deception and subterfuge.

The legal loophole they're exploiting is the so-called 'scientific culling', ie killing for scientific study. Everyone knows it's bullshit, but they still continue to get away with it.

I'm not aware of too many scientific papers that have been published based on this 'scientific' slaughter. In fact, it's been proved that the meat is sold commercially and just recently Japan's Fisheries Agency has admitted its officials accepted gifts of whale meat from the body that runs the country's so-called scientific whaling program.

Good luck to the Sea Shepherd, et al, and I hope the Australian gov has the balls to carry through legal action it started at the International Court of Justice.

Political Liberals are the first to decry such activities.

Political Liberals are also the first to tell us that other cultures' values are as valid as our own.

Which is it, oh dichotomy?

However, I can solve a quadratic equation, write (bad) haiku and laugh at Moe Howard.

Can the meat claim the same?

Even computers can claim the first two of three, but animals none. Do you think that computers are sentient and feel pain more so than animals that share well over 90% of our genetic blueprint?

I love how people can get all excited about saving whales, and then go eat a hamburger or the like... Brains are seemingly in short supply these days.

Well, not only that, the same leftists who are so pro-animal, pro-PETA, etc, are also usually the same ones who support ABORTION. These people value the life of an animal above a human being, as we see evidenced all the time.

the same leftists who are so pro-animal, pro-PETA, etc, are also usually the same ones who support ABORTION.

I fail to see the connection.

ok i love whales and i get why they should not be killed realy i do , but if they are so smart why do they go over there or swim anywhere near ships with harpoon guns on them like , come on if i heard humans were hunted in some place all the time um i wouldn't like um go there duh (whale 1 to whale 2 hey did you know eveytime us whales go near japan we like get killed , yah wierd "eh" whale 2 hey whale 1 wana go to japan duh sure)and yes i made them canadian lol..cause canadians rock

the same leftists who are so pro-animal, pro-PETA, etc, are also usually the same ones who support ABORTION.

I fail to see the connection.

I am not surprised.

the same leftists who are so pro-animal, pro-PETA, etc, are also usually the same ones who support ABORTION.

I fail to see the connection.

I am not surprised.

And I'm similarly not surprised that you've made an unwarranted linkage.

However, I can solve a quadratic equation, write (bad) haiku and laugh at Moe Howard.

Can the meat claim the same?

Even computers can claim the first two of three, but animals none. Do you think that computers are sentient and feel pain more so than animals that share well over 90% of our genetic blueprint?

I can't eat computers, so I haven't given them much thought.

After spending 10 seconds thinking about it, I'm certain, I can't eat computers but meat is meat, and whale meat is good (had some in Norway, once, some monkey in Thailand, once, and seal in Canada, several times). I prefer beef, grain fed, dry aged, rare. Good veal isn't bad, either. And the Japanese have that Kobi Beef thing down, PAT.

Sea Shepherd is just a religion for sea mammals, and not worth scientific discussion.

Walfy, your posting is irrelevant.
People still do eat everything that contains muscle tissue, even humans, you need only ask the Rockefeller family about the fate of their son who was eaten by New Guinea natives who still practice cannibalism. Then in Asia dogs and cats as well as monkeys are accepted food animals. In Australia you can do what you cannot do in any other country. You can eat the county's coat of arms. Yes Kangaroo and Emu meat are on some restaurant menus, so too is crocodile. So as a species we eat everything including ourselves (long pig).
Instead of doing all the work ourselves we now have specialists who slaughter, prepare, cook, serve and all we have to do is to eat it.
We now earn that right by earning the money to pay for it.
But none of this is relevant as to whether whaling is right or wrong.
What we do know is that Japanese whaling is deceptively practiced.

...Instead of doing all the work ourselves we now have specialists who slaughter, prepare, cook, serve and all we have to do is to eat it.
We now earn that right by earning the money to pay for it...

Um, my point was that most people by far, when they have access to plentiful vegetarian food, will not eat meat from an animal personally raised and butchered. Mass slaughter houses know most people will stop eating meat if they watched the killing. That is why slaughter houses are have no windows and no video cameras allowed in. Yes, it's somewhat irrelevant to the article, but like you, couldn't help but riff out like most everyone else in this discussion.

Political Liberals are the first to decry such activities.

Political Liberals are also the first to tell us that other cultures' values are as valid as our own.

Which is it, oh dichotomy?

Dichotomy, or dialectic?

I think cultures should be respected/tolerated as far as one's moral duty allows. Kant's categorical imperative is useful here (oriented towards the whales in my case, but also works oriented towards the Japanese). Would I will that no sapient being be cruelly hunted by invaders from a far-off land (especially beyond absolute need)? Yes, universally (and yes, I would also will that industrial agriculture in the US be stopped - there's that other orientation - but this also must be weighed against human need; we would all drop dead). Anyway, the Japanese are grossly violating this moral rule, and it's relatively within my control, so opposing their behavior is a categorical imperative.

I suppose everyone is aware these meat eaters are passing the infections they carry onto your kid in daycare ?
"Novel Deer-Associated Parapoxvirus Infection in Deer Hunters"
"Hepatitis B found in wrestlers' sweat"
"Sweating might be a way that the virus could be passed between participants in contact sports"

Political Liberals are the first to decry such activities.

Political Liberals are also the first to tell us that other cultures' values are as valid as our own.

Which is it, oh dichotomy?

You think following the current law is a dichotomy? I don't think we should be letting the Japanese go a whaling. I also think Mr. Sea Sheppherd is a high seas pirate and should be given no quarter for violation of international maritime law. When you don't follow the rules, all the rules become useless either in function or in form. Republic is lost by being lenient with law breakers, while not consistently reviewing and revising the laws for contemporal accuracy.

When you don't follow the rules, all the rules become useless either in function or in form. Republic is lost by being lenient with law breakers, while not consistently reviewing and revising the laws for contemporal accuracy.

That is certainly true with immigration laws the federal govt refuses to follow, but local govts must enforce to survive.

Political Liberals are the first to decry such activities.

Political Liberals are also the first to tell us that other cultures' values are as valid as our own.

Which is it, oh dichotomy?

Nah. Liberalism is either a mental disorder, or a secular fundamentalist religion. Either way, dogma controls their thinking, not logic, nor reason.

The Patron Saint of their religion, Saul Alinsky wrote their catechism, "Rules for Radicals", and made it clear that the ends justify the means, not morals or ethics or principles. Therefore, heaven is power, and political opponents are the devil, less than human, and evil personified.

When looked at this way, all these seemingly contradictory attitudes become clear.

Oh, and for those who think that Alinsky is just some irrelevancy, his own son wrote a letter to the Boston Globe in 2008 congratulating Obama for using his old man's tactics so well in the election. And the NEA has Rules for Radicals on their recommended reading list.

If you can prove cetaceans are sentient or even (dare I say it?) endangered, I'll be more than happy to back your play, otherwise, meat is meat.

riiight.

As if you would accept ANY PROOF as legitimate. people like you don't believe proof.

If the proof counters what you believe, then you question the accuracy of the proof, or the honesty of the one who presents proof.

You're a fool, and the biggest fools are the ones who actually try to reason with you or engage you based on facts, because for you all facts are subjective biased and false UNLESS they validate what you believe without proof or facts.

I also think Mr. Sea Sheppherd is a high seas pirate and should be given no quarter for violation of international maritime law. When you don't follow the rules, all the rules become useless either in function or in form. Republic is lost by being lenient with law breakers, while not consistently reviewing and revising the laws for contemporal accuracy.

I think the rule of law is a (noble) myth. Laws are always written and enforced in such a way that provide the most benefit to those closest to power. That said, given the importance of law: When it is violated and the state does not act, is it not the duty of citizens to correct the situation? Further, when laws are not "contemporaily accurate" (or democratic/popular), is it also not the duty of citizenry to act?

The hate-filled bigotry of geokstr is hardly worth responding to, but the Saul Alinsky meme must be combated. Alinsky has nothing to do with my version of liberalism.

Pragmatism over principle, ends over means, morality as self-interest = betrayal of true progressive morality. The last one is quite conservative in origin.

We would die for principle, which is exactly what we often do at the hands of conservatives (fascists).

That is certainly true with immigration laws the federal govt refuses to follow, but local govts must enforce to survive.

A very cheap labor force that growers of produce depend on for economic survival.

I don't think we should be letting the Japanese go a whaling. I also think Mr. Sea Sheppherd is a high seas pirate and should be given no quarter for violation of international maritime law.

There isn't a navy in the world that can contain Sudanese pirates, let alone protesters on the high seas. My sincere thanks to those who risk life and limb to stop these atrocities.

I didn't know Fox "News" lackeys frequent science websites! Stunning.

@frytoy: Fascists are socialists.

"Reactionary concepts plus revolutionary emotion result in Fascist mentality."
_Wilhelm Reich

There's your "Tea Party" in a nutshell, with an emphasis on "nut".

"Reactionary concepts plus revolutionary emotion result in Fascist mentality."
_Wilhelm Reich

There's your "Tea Party" in a nutshell, with an emphasis on "nut".

People in the tea parties want to cut the size and scope of the govt meaning they want to LIMIT the power of the state. What fascist/socialist ever wanted to do that?

No jingoism intended, but you disgrace the memory of men and women in the armed services who fought genuine fascism in Franco's Spain, Mussolini's in Italy, and Hitler's in Germany. Shameful.

No jingoism intended, but you disgrace the memory of men and women in the armed services who fought genuine fascism in Franco's Spain, Mussolini's in Italy, and Hitler's in Germany. Shameful.

Are you talking to me?
Genuine Fascism is socialism. Many also died, and are still dying, defending the world from that scourge.

Wilhelm Reich:
"Reich's increasing interest in reconciling Marxism and psychoanalysis,..."

Read more: Wilhelm Reich - Becomes a disciple of Freud, Attacked for unorthodox ideas - Gestalt Psychology, Orgone, Sexual, Psychoanalytic, Published, Theory, and Psychoanalysis http:/psychology.jrank.org/pages/540/Wilhelm-Reich.html#ixzz19wO0L61m"

Tea party supporters do not support Marxism, communism or fascism.

Ironic, isn't it, that Dr. Wilhelm Reich, whose book "Character Analysis" studied in American universities today, was the victim of McCarthyism, after escaping Nazi Germany, to have his books BURNED by the American government in the 1950's. Your tea parties are dupes of the Republican right wing who's agenda is to continue to fleece America's treasury that Halliburton's Cheney began. These torch-bearing mobs
will burn America, their own home down.

Further, when laws are not "contemporaily accurate" (or democratic/popular), is it also not the duty of citizenry to act?

This is a Janus-faced question. You wouldn't want a lynching revival, would you?

Wilhelm Reich

...

Tea party supporters do not support Marxism, communism or fascism.

Wikipedia:

On August 23, six tons of his books, journals, and papers were burned in the 25th Street public incinerator in New York's lower east side
...
This action has been cited as one of the worst examples of censorship in U.S. history.

Do you support censorship by the burning of books?

@frajo: What are you talking about?
If it is censorship you are worried about, the socialists do a wonderful job banning religion in schools and promoting historical fiction.

Here's the way this story OUGHT to read:

"Activists conducting acts of piracy on the high seas were engaged with small arms fire from targeted Japanese whaling vessels. There were no survivors."

@frajo: What are you talking about?
If it is censorship you are worried about, the socialists do a wonderful job banning religion in schools and promoting historical fiction.

My question was:

Do you support censorship by the burning of books?

You preferred to not answer my question. Thus you allow me to assume that you tolerate censorship by burning of selected books.

@frajo: What are you talking about?
If it is censorship you are worried about, the socialists do a wonderful job banning religion in schools and promoting historical fiction.

My question was:

Do you support censorship by the burning of books?

You preferred to not answer my question. Thus you allow me to assume that you tolerate censorship by burning of selected books.

Since you are a socialist, I assume you support speech codes on colleges and indoctrination by professors.

@frajo: What are you talking about?
If it is censorship you are worried about, the socialists do a wonderful job banning religion in schools and promoting historical fiction.

My question was:

Do you support censorship by the burning of books?

You preferred to not answer my question. Thus you allow me to assume that you tolerate censorship by burning of selected books.

Since you are a socialist, I assume you support speech codes on colleges and indoctrination by professors.

Gentlemen ask before drawing conclusions.

@frajo: What are you talking about?
If it is censorship you are worried about, the socialists do a wonderful job banning religion in schools and promoting historical fiction.

My question was:

Do you support censorship by the burning of books?

You preferred to not answer my question. Thus you allow me to assume that you tolerate censorship by burning of selected books.

Since you are a socialist, I assume you support speech codes on colleges and indoctrination by professors.

Gentlemen ask before drawing conclusions.

No need to ask. The data was clear.

To the love embracing humanitarians who posted here about the atrosities of the japanese...who do you think pioneered most of the components in the computer you used to write your post?
To the meat is meat crowd, ignorance by choice is worse than just plain ignorance.

If it were me I'd send a naval escort, and the first thing thrown at any of the civilian ships under my flag I'd board them. I'd arrest all the dipwads on board, and give them a fair trial followed by some hefty time in a Japanese prison...

Big boys rules...

@ rubberman: the word 'atrocities' is spelled with a 'c', and 'Japanese' is spelled with a capital 'J'. Sorry, I hate illiteracy.
@ Modernmystic: Your talk is big, but at the first sound of gunfire, you'd be found quaking below deck with a load in your pants.

@ rubberman: the word 'atrocities' is spelled with a 'c', and 'Japanese' is spelled with a capital 'J'. Sorry, I hate illiteracy.
@ Modernmystic: Your talk is big, but at the first sound of gunfire, you'd be found quaking below deck with a load in your pants.

Heard a lot of gunfire in my life :) Even been shot at...not in anger but in stupidity. Can't say I wasn't scared, but loading my pants or quaking wasn't my reaction.

Also why are you humping my leg all the sudden? It's not "big talk" to be against piracy, or vigilantism, or vandalism. It's called being ****ing civilized...you jack***.

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."
-from Hamlet-Act3

Gentlemen ask before drawing conclusions.

No need to ask. The data was clear.

Of course, "audiatur et altera pars" is of no importance to you and your ilk.

Gentlemen ask before drawing conclusions.

No need to ask. The data was clear.

Of course, "audiatur et altera pars" is of no importance to you and your ilk.

When you pose a question with zero context, I am not going to answer.
But if you mean do I support socialist govt book burnings as was done in the past, no. I don't support any totalitarian govt censorship programs. Do you?

@frajo: Despite your noble efforts, your words fall on deaf ears. You're casting pearls before swine. Time to
move on, friend.

Ironic, isn't it, that Dr. Wilhelm Reich, whose book "Character Analysis" studied in American universities today, was the victim of McCarthyism, after escaping Nazi Germany, to have his books BURNED by the American government in the 1950's. Your tea parties are dupes of the Republican right wing who's agenda is to continue to fleece America's treasury that Halliburton's Cheney began. These torch-bearing mobs
will burn America, their own home down.

"From the first statement on academic freedom, it has been recognized that intellectual independence means the protection of students - as well as faculty - from the imposition of any orthodoxy of a political, religious or ideological nature. "
http:/www.studentsforacademicfreedom.org/documents/1925/abor.html
Do you support the Academic Bill of Rights?
BTW, as you note, Reich's works are not censored.

"He has fashioned orgone
accumulators which he rents out to his patients.
The orgone accumulator is a six-sided box big enough for a man to get
into and made out of metal on the inside and of wood, or some other organic
material, on the outside. The organic material presumably absorbs orgone
from the air. The orgone then seeps through the metal, thus stepping up
the orgone concentration inside the box."
"It is a singular fact that in most states druggists, plumbers and even
hair dressers have to have a license to practise their skills, while anybody
can call himself a psychoanalyst, hang out a shingle and take patients."
http:/www.joanbrady.co.uk/assets_cm/files/PDF/strange_case_of_wilhelm_reich.pdf
This is from '47. Suggestions have been made this was a communist hit piece.
I wonder where were the FDA regulations for orgone accumulator?

"Reactionary concepts plus revolutionary emotion result in Fascist mentality."
_Wilhelm Reich

I prefer this Austrian Nobel prize winning economist's definition of fascism:
"The communists and Nazis clashed more frequently with each other than with other parties simply because they competed for the same type of mind and reserved for each other the hatred of the heretic. Their practice showed how closely they are related. To both, the real enemy, the man with whom they had nothing in common, was the liberal of the old type. While to the Nazi the communist and to the communist the Nazi, and to both the socialist, are potential recruits made of the right timber, they both know that there can be no compromise between them and those who really believe in individual freedom. "
http:/jim.com/hayek.htm
The US tea party members support individual freedom. A flag commonly seen at rallies states "Don't Tread on Me".

ryggesogn2 your clumping of all people who have differing opinions then you into one giant group you call 'socialists' doesn't exactly paint you as the sharpest tool in the shed. I am sorry that you:

(please choose only 1)

a) were indoctrinated and can't think for yourself
b) are a troll
c) are borderline retarded, and incapable of complex analysis of human psychology

Believe it or not, socialism and fascism are in fact two completely different things. I know it's hard for you to understand, but that's ok, you don't have to worry about it since your opinion doesn't actually matter.

@frajo: Despite your noble efforts, your words fall on deaf ears. You're casting pearls before swine.

Well, my efforts are not so noble, as I'm studying his verbal response behavior after certain non-violating verbal input. Obviously, his response is not motivated by rational assessment of arguments, but instead by intense pawlow-like emotions which he manages to hide only by verbal escape mechanisms like quoting unfitting statements of third persons from wholly different contexts.
If the term "pseudo-intellectual" ever had a meaning - here's the prototype.

"The US tea party members support individual freedom. A flag commonly seen at rallies states "Don't Tread on Me". "

Please. The TeaBaggers used and advocated political violence, albeit at a smaller scale than others were able to get away with.

This story is in the "environmental" section of the web site, rather than the ecology section? Hmmm.

I predict that this will get worked out through legal means. The situation with commercial fishing/whaling is much better than it was a couple decades ago, and Japanese culture is slowly changing. If the person way up at the top who suggested a boycot of Japanese goods is serious, then they need to get off of the computer and stop using the internet and cell phones right away. I assume that will be your last post. Thanks and good luck with your boycot.

Shootist, "If you can prove cetaceans are sentient or even (dare I say it?) endangered, I'll be more than happy to back your play, otherwise, meat is meat."

Analysis of whale songs reveals rhyme and other complexities associated with intelligent communication and perhaps language.

cogweb.ucla.edu/ep/Music_Gray_01.html

The communists and Nazis clashed more frequently with each other than with other parties simply because they competed for the same type of mind and reserved for each other the hatred of the heretic. Their practice showed how closely they are related. To both, the real enemy, the man with whom they had nothing in common, was the liberal of the old type. While to the Nazi the communist and to the communist the Nazi, and to both the socialist, are potential recruits made of the right timber, they both know that there can be no compromise between them and those who really believe in individual freedom.

So let's apply that to the waging of war between fascism, and religion, or socialism and religion, or perhaps the battle royale between the three. If we're going to take your selected quote as evidence of evil, religion, namely christianity, would have to be put on the same platform. I think you need to revise your argument so you don't end up self-defeating.

Whales are socialists.
They share sea.

Humans are fascists.
We want to take every resource from the planet and use wastefully with no consideration of the needs of each other or other species.

Bacteria are communists because they all swim are around in and eat the same goop that the next one does with no complaint.

Eric B:
Please. The TeaBaggers used and advocated political violence, albeit at a smaller scale than others were able to get away with.

Cites to all this violence please?

Perhaps you are referring to the phony made up stories of the "N" word and spit being heaped upon black Congressmen who deliberately tried to provoke such an incident but failed? Or maybe the black guy who brought a gun to a rally as a publicity stunt and the media carefully cropped the pictures so you couldn't see his skin color? Or the Democrat campaigns to infiltrate the Tea Parties with racist signs? Or maybe the beating of that black guy, Kenneth Gladney, at a Tea Party rally? Oops that was by SEIU goons.

And given that there were millions of participants at all the Tea Party rallies, where are all the riots and lootings and arson? At leftist protests, that's where.

And, please, enough already with the juvenile sexual slurs. Go toss yourself a salad, fudge-packer.

Cites to all this violence please?

Sharron Angle recommended "Second Amendment remedies" for the government. She was as deep in the TEA party as a candidate could be. Carl Paladino said he'd "send a few guys to make sure you're taken care of" to a few reporters.

And given that there were millions of participants at all the Tea Party rallies

Not at one rally, maybe at the total of all rallies, and there's the rally on 9/12 that was questionably either just below or just above 1 million, so I'll give you one million man march.

And given that there were millions of participants at all the Tea Party rallies, where are all the riots and lootings and arson? At leftist protests, that's where.

Well, no, most looting and rioting is occuring after sports games. No real political side in that for 2010, at least not in the US.

And, please, enough already with the juvenile sexual slurs. Go toss yourself a salad, fudge-packer.

I agree, you bunch of peckerheaded deviants.

The point of the 2nd amendment was for the citizens to defend themselves from all enemies, foreign and domestic.
The first step every tyrant takes is to disarm the people. Democrats have been trying to do that for decades.

Believe it or not, socialism and fascism are in fact two completely different things.

No, as Hayek pointed out, both systems sacrifice the individual's liberty for the state.
Elite military units, like the US Marines, never leave anyone behind, dead or alive. One benefit of this is individuals will attempt great things for the unit knowing they have their comrades support.
Socialist/fascist societies don't support individuals and force their compliance to support 'society'. The resulting malaise is should not be a surprise.

No, as Hayek pointed out, both systems sacrifice the individual's liberty for the state.

That's an opinion born of ignorance.

One benefit of this is individuals will attempt great things for the unit knowing they have their comrades support.

Like socialism?

Socialist/fascist societies don't support individuals

That's actually not true. Everything is a matter of measures. With a correct balance between social values and individual values you gain the strength of both the individual and the society at large. If everyone worked to help everyone else, imagine how much more we'd all be able to accomplish.

and force their compliance to support 'society'.

No, that's totalitarianism. The problem you have is the two prime examples of fascism and communism, which you mistakenly call socialism, are both totalitarian regimes. Totalitarianism of any form is disgusting. We all agree on that point.

That's an opinion born of ignorance.

Hayek lived it.

Totalitarianism of any form is disgusting. We all agree on that point.

Socialism requires totalitarian force to function.

If everyone worked to help everyone else, imagine how much more we'd all be able to accomplish.

That almost sounds Christian.
That 'help' must NOT be forced or it will and is failing.

Hayek lived it.

Which means he has a distinct bias.

Socialism requires totalitarian force to function.

Nope, try again.

That almost sounds Christian.

It might sound Christ-like, but it is certainly not Christian.

That 'help' must NOT be forced or it will and is failing.

What will and is failing?

I really don't see where you guys are going with all that. It's really a moot point anyway. Arguing about symantics is useless, since no real-world government completely fits into any of your labels. I know the US government can't really be classified as strictly any one type of political, social or economic model type. In the real world, everything is a hybrid mix based on the circumstances under which it formed.

A slightly ironic and slightly goofy thought just hit me. I used to use a phrase when people were talking about something that didn't matter or didn't make much sense. I would say "What does that have to do with migration of whales in the south pacific?". It was intended to be deliberately random and meaningless, but in this context (since the article is related to seasonal whale migration) my usually meaningless question takes on a litteral meaning. lol.

@frajo: What are you talking about?
If it is censorship you are worried about, the socialists do a wonderful job banning religion in schools and promoting historical fiction.

There are lots of religions marjon. Lots of schools actually contain world religions classes to learn about all of them.

What is censored? The favoritism of specific religions in public schools? Why should a Muslim child going to a PUBLIC school be forced to learn Christian dogma? And vice vera.

Catholic/other religious private schools exist and are allowed, they are just private schools. It would not be fair for specific religions to get public funding while others do not.

There's nothing about religion that parents can't teach at home or in Church/Sunday school/etc. anyways, so why is religion necessary in schools at all?

Lots of schools actually contain world religions classes to learn about all of them.

Not in US public schools.
BTW, Muslims in NYC schools are given special treatment during Ramadan.
Religion played and plays an important role in history and as such is worthy of study in any world history class.

Socialism requires totalitarian force to function.

Nope, try again.

Of course it does. The 49% who don't want to have their income redistributed go to jail or are shot.

Socialism requires totalitarian force to function.

Nope, try again.

Of course it does. The 49% who don't want to have their income redistributed go to jail or are shot.

Well they get their stuff taken at gun point or go to jail...usually not shot though.

Not in US public schools.
BTW, Muslims in NYC schools are given special treatment during Ramadan.

Because Christian holdiays aren't celebrated coast to coast...

Religion played and plays an important role in history and as such is worthy of study in any world history class.

And it already is studied within that context. What special priviledge are you trying to have established beyond that?

Of course it does. The 49% who don't want to have their income redistributed go to jail or are shot.

So you're saying across Europe and the US that we're shooting people and jailing them for not giving away money? Give us an example.

Hayek lived it.

Which means he has a distinct bias.

That's called wisdom.

"Jailed Tax Protester Richard Simkanin died in prison at 12:43 yesterday."
"He had served seven years in federal prison after refusing to withhold taxes from his employees at his Bedford, TX plastics business. He had been sentenced to an additional 7 years after his alleged violation of terms of release."
http:/newhampshirefreepress.com/node/680
"Ed Brown testified during the trial that the weapons in his home were for self-defense. Brown said he believed the government planned to kill him, a not unrealistic assumption considering government action against the Randy Weaver family at Ruby Ridge, the residents of Mount Carmel outside of Waco, Texas, and countless other people who have resisted the government. "
"In other words, resisting a criminal tax confiscation system and responding to threats by heavily armed federal agents has no place in a “civil society.”"
http:/www.infowars.com/ed-an

The deputy sheriffs, the soldiers, the governors get paid
And the marshals and cops get the same
But the poor white man's used in the hands of them all like a tool
He's taught in his school
From the start by the rule
That the laws are with him
To protect his white skin
To keep up his hate
So he never thinks straight
'Bout the shape that he's in
But it ain't him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game.
(B. Dylan)

Hayek lived it.

Which means he has a distinct bias.

That's called wisdom

No, wisdom would be if he actually made an accurate and in depth review of the discourse between the two ideologies.

Then you get to a point where you're going to talk about someone who was breaking the law as though they're some sort of hero for refusing to pay taxes. This shows how much of an extremist you are.

He's only a pawn in their game.

Tim McVeigh a big hero of yours, too?

in depth review of the discourse between the two ideologies.

Why? They both attack individual liberty.

You asked for people who are forced to 'give' away their money.

Tim McVeigh a big hero of yours, too?

No.

It is interesting how quickly he was executed by the federal govt.
No one involved in the attacks on the WTC or Pentagon have been executed by the federal govt.
Janet Reno and Clinton were very quick to murder women and children at Waco, but when US personnel were attacked in the embassy attacks or the AF barracks in Saudi Arabia or in the attack on the USS Cole, they were quite timid.
Is Janet Reno your hero?

"Anyone waving a placard or voicing dissent against the Obama administration dare not protest too loudly. President Bill Clinton has reignited the incendiary rhetoric of April 19, 1995. He effectively sealed his second White House bid in 1996 by blaming conservative talk radio for inciting the heartland bomber Timothy McVeigh. Now, fifteen years later, the Democratic playbook promises to claim far more victims. Only this time, hardworking Americans stand in the crosshairs. "
"Vilify the Tea Party, deeming its membership capable of the violent rampage of the Oklahoma City bomber. This stigma imperils the most influential grassroots movement in modern history. Nothing threatens to muzzle free speech more than being stereotyped a "Tim McVeigh wanna-be." "
http:/www.americanthinker.com/2010/04/the_tea_party_timothy_mcveigh.html
What is Clinton hiding?

ATF Special Agent David Aguilera had interviewed former Branch Davidian Jeannine Bunds, who claimed that Koresh had fathered at least fifteen children with various women and young girls at the compound. According to Bunds, some of the girls who had babies fathered by Koresh were as young as 12 years old. She said she had personally delivered seven of these children. Bunds also claims that Koresh would annul all marriages of couples who joined his cult. He then had exclusive sexual access to the women. He would also have regular sexual relations with young girls.[12] In his book, James Tabor states that Koresh acknowledged on a videotape sent out of the compound during the standoff that he had fathered more than 12 children by several "wives", some of whom were as young as 12 or 13 when they became pregnant.( Excerpts from Wikipedia)

19 children under the age of 6 years old were murdered among the 168 in the Oklahoma City bombing. The only reason I can think of why you would identify with these monsters is that you're one yourself.

claimed that Koresh had fathered at least fifteen children with various women and young girls at the compound. According to Bunds, some of the girls who had babies fathered by Koresh were as young as 12 years old.

That's no excuse for killing them.

Frajo, the US government did NOT kill them. The idiots started a fire themselves and shot at people that wanted to put out the fire and then millions of rounds of ammunition that was stored there started to go of.

Wacko Koresh has been deified by government haters all over the US. McVeigh was one of them. Koresh had officers shot on the very first day they came to rescue the children from that abuser.

Marjon is simply repeating lies as usual.

Plus he can stop paying US taxes anytime he wants. He just has to leave the country. Voting with your feet is the ultimate freedom and the government won't stop him.

Ethelred

You asked for people who are forced to 'give' away their money.

Marjon, he wasn't paying his share of his employees tax withholdings. He was criminally stealing his employees tax dues. He was the one stealing money and redistributing it to himself.

This stigma imperils the most influential grassroots movement in modern history.

There's nothing grassroots about the TEA party. Almost all their supported candidates were business made millionaires.

I think the main reason I keep looking at this thread is that BOAT. It is FANTASTIC and I don't like stink potters.

The future has arrived for boats. Now where is my jet pack?

Then again I wonder if it has hydrofoils. I have printed pictures for Yamaha of a hydrofoil trimaran SAILBOAT. And that was the LAST century.

The thing tended to break a lot.

Ethelred

So you're saying across Europe and the US that we're shooting people and jailing them for not giving away money? Give us an example.

I would say that the way you worded your question is too restrictive. If you limit the question to only that exact wording then it becomes an absurd question. If you broaden the wording of your question so that it becomes a more reasonable analysis of the concept of individual rights versus government violence, then I think the Waco Texas siege of 1993 could be used as an example of abuse of power. You might also point to the Kent State shootings in 1970.

Oh, and try to just drive through a DUI checkpoint without stopping (because unless they have reasonable suspicion they don't have the right to stop you, right?) and see what happens.

ATF Special Agent David Aguilera had interviewed former Branch Davidian Jeannine Bunds, who claimed that Koresh had fathered at least fifteen children with various women and young girls at the compound. According to Bunds, some of the girls who had babies fathered by Koresh were as young as 12 years old. She said she had personally delivered seven of these children. Bunds also claims that Koresh would annul all marriages of couples who joined his cult. He then had exclusive sexual access to the women. He would also have regular sexual relations with young girls.[12] In his book, James Tabor states that Koresh acknowledged on a videotape sent out of the compound during the standoff that he had fathered more than 12 children by several "wives", some of whom were as young as 12 or 13 when they became pregnant.( Excerpts from Wikipedia)

That justified govt execution by fire?
What's wrong with polygamy if homosexual marriage is legal?

Failing to withhold taxes from your employees is not stealing from them.
By doing so you choose not to act as a govt agent. Many conservatives have submitted legislation that would end the requiremnt of employers to withhold income taxes from their employees and send that money to the govt. That should be the employees responsibility.
Of course if everyone had to sit down and write a check to pay their taxes (NOT dues) every month, citizens may pay a bit more attention to what they actually pay.

As for censoring books, the Adventures of Huck Finn by Twain is banned in most schools and cannot be read over public airwaves.

As for Koresh, the govt, ATF, attacked the compound. Koresh could have been arrested quietly by local authorities in the local town. Clinton and Reno wanted to make an example of what they termed 'right wing extremists'.
Too bad they ignored the Muslim terrorists killing US citizens all over the world.

but that doesn't mean Da Vince didn't paint it!

That is knowable. Apples and oranges. Which makes analogy bogus. If you have to engage in crap like that perhaps you should give up on believing in unknowable things.

That justified govt execution by fire?

The government didn't start the fire. So they didn't execute anybody.

What's wrong with polygamy if homosexual marriage is legal?

I don't have a problem with polygamy BUT Koresh was screwing kids. Getting kids pregnant. Sex with twelve year olds is against the law.

What is right about that? What is right about people blaming the government for a fire it didn't start?

Ethelred

Failing to withhold taxes from your employees is not stealing from them.

Yes it is. You work for me, I am required to file your tax withholdings, if I do not file your tax withholdings you are subject to file them yourself at double the rate. If I then file a w-4 on you that means I'm making you pay money out of your pocket that is due from mine. That is theft.

file them yourself at double the rate.

Overpayment will refunded.

BUT Koresh was screwing kids.

In many states 'children' can marry.
Teens get pregnant all the time in the US and the 'liberals' cover up the rape. When a 13 year old gets an abortion no questions are asked about the father. Planned Parenthood has been documented covering for statutory rapists.

file them yourself at double the rate.

Overpayment will refunded.

You've never owned a business, nor have you paid corporate rate taxes. Amazing that you'll sit here and speak as though you have any expertise in these matters.

Not in US public schools.
BTW, Muslims in NYC schools are given special treatment during Ramadan.
Religion played and plays an important role in history and as such is worthy of study in any world history class.

It IS studied in world history classes. It's also studied in world religions classes which is generally a highschool social sciences elective (elective being the key term there). There's a difference between studying a religion and following a religion.

What about the Muslim student who wants to attend class on Christmas day and can't because all the schools are closed?

"In many states 'children' can marry.
Teens get pregnant all the time in the US and the 'liberals' cover up the rape. When a 13 year old gets an abortion no questions are asked about the father. Planned Parenthood has been documented covering for statutory rapists."
This is classic fringe psychosis- Defend a reprehensible act by citing law that doesn't apply, and then redirect the accusation so that it falls on a "liberal, abortionist" organization which, in his twisted mind, is more culpable than the original rapist, David Koresh.

What's wrong with polygamy if homosexual marriage is legal?

I don't have a problem with polygamy BUT Koresh was screwing kids. Getting kids pregnant. Sex with twelve year olds is against the law.

So to the best of my knowledge is polygamy. NPR, hardly a rightwing source, in 2007 cited estimates of 50,000-100,000 Muslims living in the US in polygamous arrangements. It's probably larger by now. (And before you ask, I am opposed to it when Mormons do it, on a much smaller scale.)

And as far as "sex with 12 year olds" goes, you do know that Muhammed had a 9 year old wife that he graciously waited to boink until she was ten? And that this practice of marrying preteen girls is considered just peachy under Islam? Since leftists, most of whom consider Christianity the greatest threat to civilization since sliced nukes, appear to be in love with Islam, what will you say when Muslims demand both polygamy and child marriage in the US, under the guise of freedom of religion?

leftists, most of whom consider Christianity the greatest threat to civilization since sliced nukes, appear to be in love with Islam

"Leftists" are not in love with Islam. "Leftists" use Islam as an example to "rightists" that Christianity and its derivatives are not the only mainstream religions being followed in the developed world any more. Apparently you are having trouble coping.

There are fundamentalist Muslims just as there are fundamentalist Christians. There are progressive Muslims just as there are progressive Christians. There's also everything in between.

Stop lumping people into groups and hating them. That's not a very Christian thing to do.

There are fundamentalist Muslims just as there are fundamentalist Christians.

Fundamentalist Christians won't kill you for being critical of them. Muslims will.
Maybe that is why there is so much silence from 'liberals'.

Defend a reprehensible act by citing law that doesn't apply

Just pointing out 'liberals' fully support teen abortions with or without parental permission and no information about the father who could be over 18. 'Liberals' cover up child rape to protect abortion. But if a teen wants to get pregnant and if an adult impregnates her, that is rape?
Just another example of 'liberal' hypocrisy.

"The law is complicated in New Hampshire. Individuals under the age of 18 may not marry in New Hampshire without parental approval and a judicial waiver. Brides must be at least 13 years of age and grooms must be at least 14 years of age before their parents can apply for a judicial waiver."

"A federal jury will be asked to decide whether it is acceptable for an African American person, but not a white person, to use the "n" word in a workplace."
http:/www.philly.com/philly/news/local/20110105_Trial_set_for_firing_over_use_of__n__word.html
Not just any workplace. It is an FCC licensed news station.
Oh, and Huck Finn is being censored.
http:/www.cnn.com/2011/SHOWBIZ/01/04/new.huck.finn.ew/index.html

Fundamentalist Christians won't kill you for being critical of them. Muslims will.

Quote mining marjon style:

http:/www.pinknews.co.uk/2009/12/21/christian-leader-supports-death-penalty-for-gays/

"A far right Christian group has urged fellow Christians to support Uganda�s proposed law that would make homosexuality punishable by death."

"Stephen Green, leader of the Christian extremist group �Christian Voice�, remarked:

�The Bible calls for the ultimate penalty for sodomy (Lev 20:13) and for rape (Deut 22:25), and our Lord upheld the death penalty when He called for the accusers of the woman caught in adultery to cast the first stone (John 8:7) - if, that is, they were not implicated in adultery themselves."

What a ridiculous twisting of "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"...

All I'm saying is that there are extremists on both sides.

Do I support Muslim fundamentalism/extremism? Nope.

Do I support Christian fundamentalism/extremism? Nope.

There are fundamentalist Muslims just as there are fundamentalist Christians.

Fundamentalist Christians won't kill you for being critical of them.

Only in the Western world.

Muslims will.

Not accurate.

Just pointing out 'liberals' fully support teen abortions with or without parental permission and no information about the father who could be over 18. 'Liberals' cover up child rape to protect abortion. But if a teen wants to get pregnant and if an adult impregnates her, that is rape?

Yeah, it is considered statutory rape by all states within the western world. You know, unless, you're name is Jon Swenson and you promote sex with children over the age of 13 by religious edict.

Just another example of 'liberal' hypocrisy.

The only palatable hypocrisy is yours.

Do I support Muslim fundamentalism/extremism? Nope.

Do I support Christian fundamentalism/extremism? Nope.

Does one Christian psycho with pretty much no followers call for the death of homosexuals? Yup.

Do Christians, anywhere on the planet, in modern times, actually kill homosexuals as a matter of policy? Nope.

Do Muslims, as a matter of government policy, kill homosexuals, today? Yup. (See Iran)

Same goes for clitorectomies, banning females from school and jobs and driving and leaving the house without a male relative, stoning for adultery, blowing oneself up (especially if you can take many Jewish children with you), rioting, pillaging and murdering over cartoons, forced marriages of preteen girls to old geezers, often relatives, ad nauseum.

Do Christians, anywhere on the planet, in modern times, actually kill homosexuals as a matter of policy? Nope.

Wrong, happens quite often in Christian countries. You are forgetting that half of Africa can now be considered Christian.

All the silly shit that you attribute to Islam, is carried out in the name of Christ somewhere in the world today. That is the ignorance that I encourage you to look at. That is why you are not blameless when you assume so. That is why you should never cast the first stone. You are not blameless, and until you are, sit down and deal with your own issues rather than cast disparagements upon the masses.

hear,hear!
Now, on a lighter note, my fellow Druids and I would like to invite you to a human sacrifice...

Yeah, it is considered statutory rape by all states within the western world

Except at Planned Parenthood that protects rapists so they can kill babies.

SH lives in NH where 13 year old girls can be married.

SH lives in NH where 13 year old girls can be married.

Mudthrowing? OK:
You live in a country where innocent people have been and will continue to be executed but where wealthy and influential perpetrators of the law will be granted freedom by the president who never has to be afraid of being imprisoned whatever his deeds.

geokstr

Why are pretending that we alleged liberal villians monsters are supporting Islamic insanity? Islam's fanatics are a major reason that so many Atheists and Agnostics are worried about the religious nuts out there.

MOST Moslems aren't doing that crap BUT they are doing it more than Christians are at present and by a large degree. The Islamic state of Moritius was the last place on Earth that still enslaved people. Most of the slaves would have been christians or pagans since Islam does not allows Moslems to own Moslems. Which is how Islam got started on the Horn of Africa. A slave the Horn converted to Islam to escape slavery and then he took Islam back to the Horn.

Islam is a pretty nasty relgion at its base. So making up shit about your oppenents to put them down by LYING that they support Islam is exceedingly low. Even for a RightWingNut.

Ethelred

All the silly shit that you attribute to Islam, is carried out in the name of Christ somewhere in the world today.

It isn't silly if they do it. And they do. Not all Muslims but way too bloody many. Best thing I can say for Islamic nutcases these days is they kill more Muslims than they do non-Muslims.

Of course they are mostly killing the more or less rational Muslims so that is a bad thing even when blow themselves up in the process.

Ah this interesting.

Lest someone think all Muslim countries are the same on this issue, in Tunisia polygamy is banned, and the minimum age for marriage for girls is 17 according to ttp://www.law.emory.edu/IFL/legal/tunisia.htm.

I found it while checking the age of Mohamed underage wife. I had previously heard 12 and giving birth at 13. Which was bad enough but 9 for the consummation seems to be the reality of it.

Ethelred

So making up shit about your oppenents to put them down by LYING that they support Islam is exceedingly low.

Where are all you courageous agnostic 'progressives' supporting the fight against radical Islam? They are not in the 'progressive' media.

Where are all you courageous agnostic 'progressives' supporting the fight against radical Islam? They are not in the 'progressive' media.

We fight against it, your media doesn't cover it.

You commonly cite that Europe is full of progressive socialists, like France.

Well France banned the burka. Which means they've done more against the constructs of Islam than you have. So where are all the happy horseshit conservatives who are supposed to save us from the threat of terror? Oh that's right, they're making fundamenalist islamic clerics rich by watching Fox news and funneling Ad money into the Saudi Royal Family, the largest franchisers of terrorism in the world. Then you speak on their behalf to ensure that the US keeps burning saudi oil, making the terrorist financial base grow and grow.

In short, perhaps you shouldn't cast disparagements when you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

...France banned the burka.

France is much further along in suffering the consequences of "diversity" and "tolerance" and "open borders" with regard to Islam than the US. I seem to recall lots of riots by "youths", with looting and burning cars because they didn't get enough freebies. They are finally learning how evil and implacable an enemy they are facing, and seem to be growing at least a little pair now.

...to ensure that the US keeps burning saudi oil...

And you're probably the biggest opponent on this forum against the US drilling for its own oil.

So where are all the happy horseshit conservatives who are supposed to save us from the threat of terror?

Every time we do try to do something, we are called "bigots" and "Islamophobic" and "intolerant" by leftlings like you.

You do your own fair share of "casting disparagements", sir. "..happy horseshit conservatives..."?

I take part in a blog of lawyers and law professors. Every leftist there loves Islam.

And SH, now that I know you're not from the US, let me inform you of your ignorance of the politics here with regards to Islam. The ONLY resistance in the US to the horrors of this "Religion of Perpetual Outrage" is from conservatives. Period. End of story. The debate is over, denialist.

On this issue, to quote someone near and dear to you, "...you don't know what the fuck you're talking about."

You commonly cite that Europe is full of progressive socialists, like France.

Yes, but the government is rightwing, i.e. pro-wealthy and anti-social.

Well France banned the burka.

It's only a trick of the rightwing government to gather the votes of the French fascists behind LePen's Front National. The French burka ban will be culled by the European Supreme Court.

Which means they've done more against the constructs of Islam than you have.

On the contrary - they have more done to exacerbate the social conflicts between the poor immigrants plus their French-born children and the poor French natives. Their calculus is divide et impera - this way the wealthy class won't have a strong adversary. For the same reason the French government last year deported 1000 or more gypsies to Romania. Reminds one of the German past.
Nicolas Sarkozy and his crew are not noble men.

I seem to recall lots of riots by "youths", with looting and burning cars because they didn't get enough freebies.

The unrests are caused by social disparages. As in Greece, police have been killing members of social disadvantaged communities. Unlike Greece, France has a large fascist movement whose members are happy when non-whites are disadvanteged, mistreated, and killed. As in Greece, people are protesting against killing police. Unlike France, in Greece the whole population condemns killing policemen.
You don't speak French, you are not informed about the social situation in France, but you denounce the protesting people as wanting more freebies. You are showing shoddy morals.

They are finally learning how evil and implacable an enemy they are facing, and seem to be growing at least a little pair now.

Their enemy is the ruling wealthy class in France, represented by Nicolas Sarkozy and his government. The government's plot is called Divide et Impera.

You have been taking lying lessons from Marjon I see.

I have no problem with Islam in the US AS LONG AS THEY OBEY THE LAWS. Even those silly anti-polygamy laws.

Which in no way means I support the wack jobs.

Lying that all liberal monster facsist commie pinko progressives support child buggering bombing ragheads is what you are doing on this thread.

Can it.

Ethelred

For the same reason the French government last year deported 1000 or more gypsies to Romania.

Oh, that's nice. What excuse did they give?

I used to work for a guy that was in the Italian concentration camps. He was a Romanian Jew, most of his home town was murdered, and HE had a problem with gypsies. Simply couldn't comprehend it when I pointed out that the they had been in the same position he had been in. Only even the Jews didn't support them.

No one knows how many gypsies were murdered in the death camps. Somewhere between a half million and one and a half. As far as I can tell Europe still has a hate on for gypsies. Doesn't help that they are so damn insular. Even in the US.

Ethelred

And SH, now that I know you're not from the US

Where did you divine this bullshit from?

let me inform you of your ignorance of the politics here with regards to Islam.

Oh this will be rich.

The ONLY resistance in the US to the horrors of this "Religion of Perpetual Outrage" is from conservatives

You mean the same conservatives that just attacked the current administration for keeping Mujaheddin-e Khalq on the terrorist watch list? Just so you're aware MEK is responsible for bombings against the US up until 2008!

Period. End of story. The debate is over, denialist.

Who's in denial? http:/911truthnews.com/giuliani-bush-officials-support-terrorist-group/
http:/gawker.com/5717129/rudy-giuliani-proudly-supports-iranian-terrorist-group

On this issue, to quote someone near and dear to you, "...you don't know what the fuck you're talking about."

Thanks for proving my point.

I'd like to recommend, if I may, a favorite book of mine, "The Mass Psychology of Fascism", written by Dr. Wilhelm Reich, an M.D., psychoanalyst, student of Freud, and scientist whose experiments Einstein, while at Princeton deemed worthy of reproducing, though disagreeing with the results, gives Reich a considerable amount of credibility. I would do the book I mention a disservice to synopsize it, but I
do think it explains why singular economic and social ideologies can't work without an awareness of the psychological struggles of the individual human being, and that it is futile to expect any system to work without that recognition. It sheds light and compassion on those who are locked-in to the idolatry of their leaders.

MOST Moslems aren't doing that crap BUT they are doing it more than Christians are at present and by a large degree.

Holy ****! I honestly never EVER thought I'd hear that truth admitted to by someone with "left" leanings in politics.

I'd give you 10 fives if I could Eth...

MOST Moslems aren't doing that crap BUT they are doing it more than Christians are at present and by a large degree.

Holy ****! I honestly never EVER thought I'd hear that truth admitted to by someone with "left" leanings in politics.

I'd give you 10 fives if I could Eth...

Unfortunately, your body counting is biased because you omit the casualties around Israel, in Iraque, in Iran, and elsewhere where governmental sockpuppets have been rampaging against their own people for the economical interests of their overseas supporters.
The irrational Muslimic holy wars are just a response after decades of rational suppression.

For the same reason the French government last year deported 1000 or more gypsies to Romania.

Oh, that's nice. What excuse did they give?

BBC has several articles on that. Google for "France sends Roma Gypsies back to Romania"

As far as I can tell Europe still has a hate on for gypsies.

You are right, unfortunately.

MOST Moslems aren't doing that crap BUT they are doing it more than Christians are at present and by a large degree.

Holy ****! I honestly never EVER thought I'd hear that truth admitted to by someone with "left" leanings in politics.

I'd give you 10 fives if I could Eth...

Unfortunately, your body counting is biased because you omit the casualties around Israel, in Iraque, in Iran, and elsewhere where governmental sockpuppets have been rampaging against their own people for the economical interests of their overseas supporters.
The irrational Muslimic holy wars are just a response after decades of rational suppression.

Yes, all the oil wells we drilled and they nationalized and became rich with deserve a response like ramming jets into buildings killing 3000+ civilians.

Quite reasonable people...fluffy bunnies really. Just like the Communists in China you adore...

Excuse me....*WRETCH*....

deserve a response

Deserve? Are you promoting violence?

I'd like to recommend, if I may, a favorite book of mine, "The Mass Psychology of Fascism", written by Dr. Wilhelm Reich, an M.D., ...

Do you have a Orgone accumulator, too?

Lying that all liberal monster facsist commie pinko progressives support child buggering bombing ragheads is what you are doing on this thread.

Name any liberal rag in the US that had the courage to publish the Danish cartoons of Mohamed.
"over two weeks we witnessed a half-dozen cases of self-censorship, pitting freedom of speech against the fear of confronting issues about Islam. "
http:/www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/17/AR2006021702499.html

@ryqqysoqn2
This quote,from another book by Wilhelm Reich,"Listen, Little Man," succinctly captures your essence:
You differ from a great man in only one respect: the great man was once a very little man, but he developed one important quality: he recognized the smallness and narrowness of his thoughts and actions. Under the pressure of some task which meant a great deal to him, he learned to see how his smallness, his pettiness, endangered his happiness. In other words, a great man knows when and in what way he is a little man. A little man does not know he is little and is afraid to know. He hides his pettiness and narrowness behind illusions of strength and greatness, someone else's strength and greatness. He's proud of his great generals but not of himself. He admires an idea he has not had, not one he has had. The less he understands something, the more firmly he believes in it. And the better he understands an idea, the less he believes in it.

You differ from a great man in only one respect: the great man was once a very little man, but he developed one important quality: he recognized the smallness and narrowness of his thoughts and actions. Under the pressure of some task which meant a great deal to him, he learned to see how his smallness, his pettiness, endangered his happiness. In other words, a great man knows when and in what way he is a little man. A little man does not know he is little and is afraid to know. He hides his pettiness and narrowness behind illusions of strength and greatness, someone else's strength and greatness. He's proud of his great generals but not of himself. He admires an idea he has not had, not one he has had. The less he understands something, the more firmly he believes in it. And the better he understands an idea, the less he believes in it.

So then, in what way are you a little man Telekinetic?

@Modernmystic:
That's a fair question. I suppose I have little hope that in my lifetime, I'll see bigotry and racism resulting in genocide end, because from what I see in my fellow man, particularly young men, leaves me with little faith that what I railed against, namely the VietNam War, is still being played out again, with no lessons learned at all. So, you see, the little man in me is without hope or belief in people, that they can't even have a dialogue with one another without it escalating into a schoolyard brawl.

That's a fair question. I suppose I have little hope that in my lifetime, I'll see bigotry and racism resulting in genocide end, because from what I see in my fellow man, particularly young men, leaves me with little faith that what I railed against, namely the VietNam War, is still being played out again, with no lessons learned at all. So, you see, the little man in me is without hope or belief in people, that they can't even have a dialogue with one another without it escalating into a schoolyard brawl.

I would not categorize that as "little". Some would call it cynicism. Perhaps it is in your case, I don't know you well enough to say. I would call it an acquiescence to reality. I see that as the human condition. I see progress in some of those areas in some places, regress in others. It's slow, far slower than our technical progress has been. I do believe there continues to be overall progress. After all a brawl is a form of dialogue, even if a poor one.

That almost sounds Christian.

Sounds human to me. Good actions were being committed thousands of years before your religion collected up ancient stories, relabeled them, and claimed that they created morality.

So, you see, the little man in me is without hope or belief in people, that they can't even have a dialogue with one another without it escalating into a schoolyard brawl.

Maybe you should stop projecting.
The only person anyone can really change is yourself.
That is a central theme of Paul's writing of Christianity, everyone can change and there is always hope.
The world today is infinitely better today than the late 60s early 70s.
It will be better tomorrow, too.
A positive mental attitude does produce results.

Maybe you should read more from Viktor Frankl than Riech.

Koreans, Chinese, Vietnamese...eat dogs, and they not afraid to say it tastes good. The Japanese are hypocrites and cowards. Why don't they say:' We'd been eating whales for centuries, we like eating them, so we hunt them under any pretense and eat them, so the hell with you lot!"

hy don't they say:'

Because REAL Japanese don't say NO.

Which is a pain in the ass for everyone that isn't aware of the issue. No so hot for those that are aware either.

Ethelred

Koreans, Chinese, Vietnamese...eat dogs, and they not afraid to say it tastes good. The Japanese are hypocrites and cowards. Why don't they say:' We'd been eating whales for centuries, we like eating them, so we hunt them under any pretense and eat them, so the hell with you lot!"

Because the clamp down from the various trade factions would decimate the island's economies. It is one of the harshest penalties you can get slapped with from the WTO and UN.

Name any liberal rag in the US that had the courage to publish the Danish cartoons of Mohamed.

There were only two "rags" that published the cartoons other than the WSJ.

The Harvard Salient which is a conservative student paper.
The Daily Illini which is an independent student paper. You would probably consider the latter of the two to be "liberal" as the entire editorial board is composed of academics from U of Ill.

Innate human morality is non-rational, but it's a part of us which we too often deny. This is the problem, at large, with trying to rigidly define and rationalize morality - it can't be done, despite Kant's valiant efforts.

We KNOW whales are special - we see a spark of spirit and greatness in them. I won't apologize for that to your rationalist tyranny.

The balanced human mind is a dialectic between rational and non-rational inclinations. I'm sorry if you can't understand that.

blahblahblah yakyakyakkk

'Drat! Whalers. Quick Robin- to the batboat!!'
'Holy Hegel Batman- the big fish must be saved!!'
'Yes my little feathered friend but theyre not really fish you see, theyre Cetaceans, an order of marine dwelling-'
'-Watch out for that harpoon!!'
biff bam sock pow

-Otto is just having fun. I bet they all wear uniforms too. Save the big fish so we can train them to hunt North Korean mini-subs-

Activists are young people doing what they do for free, have no big problems with money. Whalers are earning a living and it's their life to go whaling. They have as much right to be upset by activist's presence as the activists have by theirs.

What i mean is, it's easier to claim the moral highground on a full stomach.

What i mean is, it's easier to claim the moral highground on a full stomach.

Yeah but, have them fill up on something other than whale.

Fundamentalist Christians won't kill you for being critical of them. Muslims will.

No they'll only kill you if you don't agree with them about the right to choose.

Viva Sea Shepherd! The most worthwhile people on the planet!

What we really need to bring this immoral and illegal whaling to a final halt is a national boycott on Japanese goods. This crap has gone on long enough. If enough people join me in this, we can force the whalers to stop.

Why?

If you can prove cetaceans are sentient or even (dare I say it?) endangered, I'll be more than happy to back your play, otherwise, meat is meat.

What a stupid comment....the japanese dont even eat Whale meat anymore,..it fell out of fashion....this is merely for the pride of keeping tradition..and its pathetic and childish lol

Viva Sea Shepherd! The most worthwhile people on the planet!

What we really need to bring this immoral and illegal whaling to a final halt is a national boycott on Japanese goods. This crap has gone on long enough. If enough people join me in this, we can force the whalers to stop.

Why?

If you can prove cetaceans are sentient or even (dare I say it?) endangered, I'll be more than happy to back your play, otherwise, meat is meat.

What a stupid comment....the japanese dont even eat Whale meat anymore,..it fell out of fashion....this is merely for the pride of keeping tradition..and its pathetic and childish lol

Haven't been to Japan, have you?

Regardless. Meat is meat. If the critter tastes good, isn't endangered, or sentient, it's food.

The comments above leave me shaking my head. In so far as most seem to be from US Americans it supports my view that USA has lost its way, that "American Dream" you all aspired to was all smoke and mirrors built with borrowed money.

Think; ethics basically requires we cause no avoidable harm to other people and cause no avoidable suffering to those which can suffer.
* Blasting bodies open with exploding harpoons is clearly a process designed with no thought for the sufferings of the whales; they are NOT killed instantly and thus must be dying in agony after being chased in terror for who knows how long. If you think that those whales do not suffer, I have to ask: Do you ever experience empathy?

* Chasing and destroying these whales is clearly NOT a sustainable practice, economic otherwise, in contrast to the sustainable, profitable industry which could be created around eco-tourism: cruising with whales in mini subs and so forth.

Regardless. Meat is meat. If the critter tastes good, isn't endangered, or sentient, it's food.

Yeah except for the fact that whales are classified as sentient and the particular whale species they're harpooning are classed as endangered.

Regardless. Meat is meat. If the critter tastes good, isn't endangered, or sentient, it's food.

Yeah except for the fact that whales are classified as sentient and the particular whale species they're harpooning are classed as endangered.

Dont let shootist explore space...he'll end up eating all the sentient life by mistake ;)

Whale meat sales in Japan are insignificant at best

Fundamentalist Christians won't kill you for being critical of them. Muslims will.

No they'll only kill you if you don't agree with them about the right to choose.

Yeah, that's why there have been 75 million abortions for no other reason than convenience in the US alone since Roe v Wade, and a whopping what, two or three abortion doctors killed by nutcases?

Nice sense of perspective.

At the same time, tens of thousands have been killed nearly every year by Muslims all over the world for the crime of not being Muslim, or saying something that a Muslim finds offensive, which is just about anything. They don't call it the "Religion of Perpetual Outrage" for nothing.

They don't call it the "Religion of Perpetual Outrage" for nothing.

Google for
+"truth-out" +"thousands egyptian muslims show up human shields defend coptic christians from terorism" . You are biased AND you don't know how to do body counts.

geokstr and marjon are simply racist idiots. Pay them no mind, they will eventually die off. They follow an idiological dead end, as conservatism by it's nature is generational and holds no long term substance.

Their opinions are meaningless.

conservatism by it's nature is generational and holds no long term substance.

Better check the conservatives' birth rates.
Sarah Palin has 5 children.
Momons, Catholics, Muslims have more children than 'liberals', 'progressives' and atheists.
"The National Center for Health Statistics reports Vermont had 6,513 live births in 2007-- 10.5 births for every 1,000 residents. It's the lowest birth rate in the nation, but not much lower than Maine at 10.7 and New Hampshire at 10.8.

Number one was Utah at 20.8. The national average was 14.3."
"Vermont's birth and fertility rates are now so low that the state's economic future is threatened because there will be too few workers to attract and keep businesses."
http:/www.wcax.com/global/story.asp?s=10033477

Messy, conservatism a dead end?
"By the early 1990s, the fruits of this liberal monopoly over urban policy were in clear view. New York City homicides topped 2,000 in 1990. Drug dealers controlled the streets in the city’s poorest neighborhoods; children slept in bathtubs to avoid stray bullets from the dealers’ gun battles. Small businesses fled the city, unable to withstand the assaults on their employees and the constant break-ins. Manhattanites posted pathetic little NO RADIO signs in their cars, hoping for mercy from the circumambient thieves. "
"In the last 20 years, conservative ideas, including the value of all work, which binds us to each other through the strange beauty of commerce and voluntary exchange, have done more to turn around American cities than four decades and hundreds of billions of dollars of welfare entitlements, social programs, and public housing ever did. "
http:/www.city-journal.org/2011/eon0106hm.html

Better check the conservatives' birth rates.
Sarah Palin has 5 children.
Momons, Catholics, Muslims have more children than 'liberals', 'progressives' and atheists.

Social convention dictates fecundity. The various "quiver full" movements will do nothing but bankrupt the country.

And you support them, much like you do every other nonsense bad idea.

Conservatism and Biblicism should not be confused in this instance. When you have multiple children, you have fewer resources to dedicate to each child. This results in poorer and more poorly educated children which results in fewer third generation children due to a lack of means if we end the entitlement and welfare states.

In short, without government hand out programs, overly fertile Christians will die off. Statistics indicate this is an accurate depiction over the past and present and projectably into the future.

Their opinions are meaningless.

You say this quite often about a lot of people. It's ironic on several levels.

SH, the economy in TX is growing and so in the population.
The economies in the NE are declining, along with the population.

SH, the economy in TX is growing and so in the population.

Primarily due to immigration and second generation immigrants. The other leading factors for Texas'es growth spurts include in-migration (moving from one state to another).

The economies in the NE are declining

You're going to need to cite evidence for this in specific sectors. The overall NE is in decline because manufacturing continues to vanish from the US industrial base.

along with the population.

There's a multitude of reasons for this, but the leading ones are normal mortality and in-migration (probably to Texas and NH).

geokstr and marjon are simply racist idiots. Pay them no mind, they will eventually die off. They follow an idiological dead end, as conservatism by it's nature is generational and holds no long term substance.

Their opinions are meaningless.

Mesafina: One of the lucky things (for you) is the anonymity of the internet (thanks be to algore). Personal insults can be tossed around without consequence. You wouldn't have the balls to call me a racist to my face (at least without your attorney present), would you, creep?

I hope for your sake when the Muslim extremist set off the inevitable dirty nuke, it won't be in your town so your own family won't be at risk.