China boasts world's fastest supercomputer

Oct 28, 2010
Hundreds of ethernet cables are connected to rows of laptops for Flashmob 1, the first flashmob supercomputer, at the University of San Francisco in 2004. China is set to trump the US to take the number one spot for the fastest supercomputer ever made in a survey of the world's zippiest machines, a report says.

China is set to trump the US to take the number one spot for the fastest supercomputer ever made in a survey of the world's zippiest machines, it was reported Thursday.

Tianhe-1, meaning Milky Way, has a sustained computing speed of 2,507 trillion calculations per second, making it the fastest computer in on a list published Thursday.

But it is also 1.4 times faster that the world's current fastest ranked in the US, housed at a national laboratory in Tennessee, according to the New York Times.

Tianhe-1 does its warp-speed "thinking" at the National Center for Supercomputing in the northern port city of Tianjin -- using mostly chips designed by US companies.

The Tianjin Meteorological Bureau and the National Offshore Oil Corporation data centre have both started trials using the computer.

"It can also serve the animation industry and bio-medical research," Liu Guangming, the supercomputing centre's director, told state news agency Xinhua.

According to Jack Dongarra, a University of Tennessee computer scientist who maintains the official supercomputer rankings which are due to be released next week, the Chinese beast "blows away the existing number one machine".

"We don’t close the books until November 1, but I would say it is unlikely we will see a system that is faster," he told the New York Times.

It is not the first time, however, that the US has had its digital crown stolen by an Asian upstart. In 2002, Japan made a machine with more power than the top 20 American computers put together.

Japan is also working on a new machine called "K Computer" in a bid to take the supercomputing crown.

Computer designer Steven J. Wallach is not overly worried by China's rise to computing superpower.

"It’s interesting, but it’s like getting to the four-minute mile," he told the New York Times. "The world didn’t stop. This is just a snapshot in time.

"They want to show they are number one in the world, no matter what it is."

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El_Nose
3 / 5 (4) Oct 28, 2010
never fear americans... the big push in supercomputing in the US is a 100Pflop machine -- the goal is to skip past tthe 1,2,4,8,16 jusmps that are always made and go straight to 2^7 as an increase in power.... Now if there is Congressional funding ... who knows?
jjoensuu
5 / 5 (4) Oct 28, 2010
"using mostly chips designed by US companies."

yea perhaps designed by US companies but built in China, nowadays...
Skeptic_Heretic
3.3 / 5 (9) Oct 28, 2010
Now if there is Congressional funding ... who knows?

Don't worry, the Conservative will win their seats and shut down any program that requires congressional funding and force America to lose out on yet another generation of the world's best and brightest through xenophobic "border controls" and "sovereignty measures".
Modernmystic
3 / 5 (4) Oct 28, 2010
The following link is instructive and puts all this into a bit more perspective.

http://en.wikiped..._pie.PNG

Like their energy policy, and so many other tings with China...this amounts to little more than a publicity stunt.
Modernmystic
3.4 / 5 (5) Oct 28, 2010
Now if there is Congressional funding ... who knows?

Don't worry, the Conservative will win their seats and shut down any program that requires congressional funding and force America to lose out on yet another generation of the world's best and brightest through xenophobic "border controls" and "sovereignty measures".


While I'm not a conservative, I should point out that they're not the only ones who like to de-fund science.

I about tore out my hair when our dearest leader gutted the Constellation program. We all have our little preferences where public money should go. I think it's healthy to look at where your own "party" tends to lean as well as the others.
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (5) Oct 28, 2010
While I'm not a conservative, I should point out that they're not the only ones who like to de-fund science.
Democrats aren't my party either, but you're quite right when it comes to having science take a back seat in congressional imperatives.
I about tore out my hair when our dearest leader gutted the Constellation program. We all have our little preferences where public money should go. I think it's healthy to look at where your own "party" tends to lean as well as the others.


The constellation program was scrapped in order to fund the extended Martian exploration initiative. Constellation was loaded with pork in any event. It was fairly necessary to scrap it as the child had already fallen down the well in that instance.
Eric_B
3.3 / 5 (7) Oct 28, 2010
"We all have our little preferences where public money should go. I think it's healthy to look at where your own "party" tends to lean as well as the others."

Puh-lease... there are people in this country who believe we would be better off without public schools and that the earth is as flat as the page of a bible.

Which side of the aisle are they on?
trekgeek1
5 / 5 (4) Oct 28, 2010


Like their energy policy, and so many other tings with China...


Yes, there are many Tings in China. I'm in a lame humor mode and such an opportunity couldn't be wasted. Regarding the computer, it doesn't matter. That's like feeling defeated when some country put more transistors on a chip than we did. Who cares? We'll have the lead in 6 months, then someone else, then someone else, forever and ever, cycling. Like the quote said, this is a snapshot in time, it isn't permanent.
Modernmystic
3.4 / 5 (5) Oct 28, 2010
"We all have our little preferences where public money should go. I think it's healthy to look at where your own "party" tends to lean as well as the others."

Puh-lease... there are people in this country who believe we would be better off without public schools and that the earth is as flat as the page of a bible.

Which side of the aisle are they on?


An ounce of introspection goes a long way, and you have a long way to go....
paulthebassguy
1.2 / 5 (6) Oct 28, 2010
Finally, I have been hanging out for ages for the chinese to implement a powerful supercomputer like this. I will now be able to get my fried rice takeaway much faster.
ShotmanMaslo
not rated yet Oct 28, 2010
Don't worry, the Conservative will win their seats and shut down any program that requires congressional funding and force America to lose out on yet another generation of the world's best and brightest through xenophobic "border controls" and "sovereignty measures".


hm.. whats bad about border controls? Tight borders is exactly what the US need, unless you want to become as "bright" as Mexico..

The constellation program was scrapped in order to fund the extended Martian exploration initiative.


I believe it is just "beyond LEO" initiative, not specificaly Martian one (flexible path?). Near-Earth asteroids and Moon are still in the game, and would be better targets, in my opinion.

Anyway, the new direction is certainly better than Constellation.
PinkElephant
4.3 / 5 (6) Oct 28, 2010
@Modernmystic,
I about tore out my hair when our dearest leader gutted the Constellation program.
You're confusing a political publicity stunt with an actual program.

To gain some perspective, look into Constellation's actual funding levels and schedule slips from its inauguration to its demise. It doesn't take much to figure out that it was nothing but a PR move -- though still a very costly one both in terms of resources and in terms of time wasted, as well as in terms of effort and money cannibalized from more worthwhile projects.

We've had our era of PR stunts back in the Apollo era. Let China and the rest of them have theirs. As for USA, it's about friggin' time we started rationally developing long-term technological pathways to space with the main goal being reduction of costs and increasing efficiencies, instead of needlessly and super-expensively lobbing human bodies in sardine cans to and from remote rocks in space.
zslewis91
Oct 28, 2010
This comment has been removed by a moderator.
PinkElephant
4.7 / 5 (9) Oct 28, 2010
im an amarican. a real one
That may well be, but that's not the same thing as being an American: real Americans at least know how to spell the word "American" (and to properly capitalize it, when appropriate.)
...fucking retards...
Given your atrocious spelling, lack of sentence structure, and free-flowing profanity, I think you're woefully misjudging most of us as being like you.
Noumenon
4.8 / 5 (50) Oct 28, 2010
Now if there is Congressional funding ... who knows?

Don't worry, the Conservative will win their seats and shut down any program that requires congressional funding and force America to lose out on yet another generation of the world's best and brightest through xenophobic "border controls" and "sovereignty measures".
The gov spending deficit increased over $3 trillion just in the last two years! I suppose you think a balanced budget is a bad thing then?
PinkElephant
4.8 / 5 (4) Oct 28, 2010
I suppose you think a balanced budget is a bad thing then?
We will have no such thing, until our creditors finally cut us off, or until we pass a constitutional amendment to mandate it. If you believe someone who told you otherwise, then they're a liar and you're a chump.
frajo
1 / 5 (2) Oct 29, 2010
im an amarican. a real one
That may well be, but that's not the same thing as being an American: real Americans at least know how to spell the word "American" (and to properly capitalize it, when appropriate.)
...fucking retards...
Given your atrocious spelling, lack of sentence structure, and free-flowing profanity, I think you're woefully misjudging most of us as being like you.
While I'm not the addressee I'd like to note that deliberate sloppy language and orthographic heresy are a well known tool in the art of writing.
Of course it requires certain skills to effectively use this tool as well as it requires certain skills to tell mastership from struggling.
Buyck
4 / 5 (4) Oct 29, 2010
China is amazing for the last years in developing high-tech products. But watch out... Japan (10 petaflops) and also the U.S are working on much more powerfull supercomputers! "Blue Waters" is expected to come online soon first half of 2011 (10 petaflops) and "Sequoia" from IBM 20 petaflops!
Skeptic_Heretic
2.8 / 5 (4) Oct 29, 2010
hm.. whats bad about border controls? Tight borders is exactly what the US need, unless you want to become as "bright" as Mexico..
Tight border controls don't stop crime, they simply increase the cost of border controls. The criminals will adjust their income based upon this and then the government will need to collect higher taxes. If you're thinking that Mexican Cartel drug trafficing is a border control issue, then I think you have placed border controls too high as a priority.

I believe it is just "beyond LEO" initiative, not specificaly Martian one (flexible path?). Near-Earth asteroids and Moon are still in the game, and would be better targets, in my opinion.
It was scrapped specifically for Mars.
Anyway, the new direction is certainly better than Constellation.
Agreed.
Noumenon
4.8 / 5 (49) Oct 29, 2010
I suppose you think a balanced budget is a bad thing then?
We will have no such thing, until our creditors finally cut us off, or until we pass a constitutional amendment to mandate it. If you believe someone who told you otherwise, then they're a liar and you're a chump.

I agree completely. It will have to be in law of course, as neither party can be trusted. The point was that to imply conservatives the bad guys if they apply their core principals , under the circumstances of deficit spending, is not rational.
ShotmanMaslo
5 / 5 (1) Oct 29, 2010
Tight border controls don't stop crime, they simply increase the cost of border controls. The criminals will adjust their income based upon this and then the government will need to collect higher taxes. If you're thinking that Mexican Cartel drug trafficing is a border control issue, then I think you have placed border controls too high as a priority.


With such logic, why dont you abolish borders completely? Border controls dont stop crime, but they help to lower its rates. What do you mean by criminals adjusting their income?
ShotmanMaslo
not rated yet Oct 29, 2010
It was scrapped specifically for Mars.


I am not aware of anything specifically for Mars in the new bill.
Noumenon
4.8 / 5 (49) Oct 29, 2010
Tight border controls don't stop crime, they simply increase the cost of border controls. [...incoherent gibberish...]. If you're thinking that Mexican Cartel drug trafficing is a border control issue, then I think you have placed border controls too high as a priority.


Perhaps you're not aware of the massive drug cartel war going on right now just over the border, where Mexican law enforcement are quitting their jobs to avoid being assassinated, and dozens of citizens are being slaughtered out of retaliation,... all in an effort get or stop drugs from entering THIS COUNTRY.
Noumenon
4.7 / 5 (50) Oct 29, 2010
....Just in the past week, "fifteen people killed in a car wash, 14 massacred at a teenager's birthday party, 13 shot dead at a drug rehabilitation centre, seven mowed down in the street, four factory workers killed on a bus and nine police officers killed in an ambush."

The war on drugs and a tight border are not the causes of such brutality, they are the solutions. If we stop the flow of drugs, the murderous drug cartels will evaporate.
frajo
2.3 / 5 (4) Oct 29, 2010
If we stop the flow of drugs, the murderous drug cartels will evaporate.
As stopping the flow of booze led to the evaporation of organized crime during prohibition?
Modernmystic
2.6 / 5 (5) Oct 29, 2010
If we stop the flow of drugs, the murderous drug cartels will evaporate.
As stopping the flow of booze led to the evaporation of organized crime during prohibition?


It most certainly did as far as the liquor trade goes, I don't see liquor store owners shooting each other, police, or innocent bystanders in the streets...do you?

The problem with prohibition was that it set up a system of corruption that was then perpetuated by keeping a myriad of victimless crimes on the books than they could then diversify into.

Simply put, they just changed what they were "selling" when booze became legal.
ShotmanMaslo
1 / 5 (1) Oct 29, 2010
As stopping the flow of booze led to the evaporation of organized crime during prohibition?


There is a difference between booze, weed, and other easily manufacturable soft drugs that should be legalized, and dangerous hard drugs. I am not a big fan of "war on drugs" paradigm, but that does not mean loosely guarded border with Mexico is a good idea.
The flow of illegal immigrants and weapons is a problem, too, its not just drugs.
El_Nose
1 / 5 (1) Oct 29, 2010
...
Noumenon
4.7 / 5 (49) Oct 29, 2010
If we stop the flow of drugs, the murderous drug cartels will evaporate.
As stopping the flow of booze led to the evaporation of organized crime during prohibition?

Different situation. Most drugs in the USA are smuggled in from across the BORDER, while illegal stills where already IN the USA, making prohibition and "stopping the flow of booze" not possible to begin with. In theory, having a border between the market-demand and the drug-cartels should be an advantage IF the border is ever locked down resoundingly. I'm not opposed to legalizing certain light drugs to undermine the thug drug trafficking, but not until these low-life degenerate murderous cartels are eliminated FIRST.

IMO, Sealing the border would be a humanitarian accomplishment. I refuse to believe it is not possible for the USA to secure the border in 2010, when China did it 2200 years ago. It's not done because it is politicized.
frajo
1 / 5 (1) Oct 29, 2010
IMO, Sealing the border would be a humanitarian accomplishment.
As in the former GDR and in North Korea?
Noumenon
4.7 / 5 (48) Oct 29, 2010
IMO, Sealing the border would be a humanitarian accomplishment.
As in the former GDR and in North Korea?

Yea, because the situation is exactly the same,...

Please click here to finish my sentence:
http://smiliesftw...eyes.gif
ShotmanMaslo
1 / 5 (1) Oct 29, 2010
As in the former GDR and in North Korea?


Those are basicaly prisons. There is a huge difference between well-secured border from outer invaders and this. But I believe people of west Germany and South Korea did benefit from being sealed off from their corrupt and poor neighbours..
Modernmystic
2.3 / 5 (3) Oct 29, 2010
IMO, Sealing the border would be a humanitarian accomplishment.
As in the former GDR and in North Korea?


So if you lock your house to prevent people from illegally entering, this is equivalent to guards putting innocent people in concentration camps to prevent them from leaving?

I'm sure I missed something here...no seriously.
Noumenon
4.7 / 5 (47) Oct 29, 2010
You're missing liberal fuzzy logic.
frajo
3 / 5 (2) Oct 29, 2010
IMO, Sealing the border would be a humanitarian accomplishment.
As in the former GDR and in North Korea?

Yea, because the situation is exactly the same,...
In other words, quod licet jovi non licet bovi?
frajo
1 / 5 (2) Oct 29, 2010
As in the former GDR and in North Korea?

Those are basicaly prisons.
1) Are? Now?
2) Like you'd like Mexico to become?
There is a huge difference between well-secured border from outer invaders and this.
Why are you afraid of invaders? Do you have WMDs?
But I believe people of west Germany and South Korea did benefit from being sealed off from their corrupt and poor neighbours..
By the post-war careers of people like killer judge Erich Schwinge? Or by the Gwangju Massacre?

Btw, nice marjon syndrom: "their corrupt and poor neighbours". Da hat jemand ganz viel Ahnung.
Noumenon
4.7 / 5 (49) Oct 29, 2010
In other words, quod licet jovi non licet bovi?
No, because the situation is not the same. You could ask that very question of Mexico since they expect the USA border to be open, yet are facing similar problems on its southern border, as Central Americans in search of higher-paying work come into that Mexico from countries like Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador and Nicaragua. Mexico is tougher on immigrants coming from it's southern border than they expect the USA to be of them.

Mexican's are not prevented from entering the USA, and in fact they can even become legal citizens. All that is required is that a legal process is followed. This is a rational expectation given the dangerous world we live in.

This argument is why Bush failed to secure the border,.. He allowed it to become an illegal immigrant issue rather than a national security issue.
ShotmanMaslo
1 / 5 (1) Oct 29, 2010
1) Are? Now?
2) Like you'd like Mexico to become?


1. GDR was, North Korea still is.
2. Straw man. I have nothing against legal visits or migration.
Skeptic_Heretic
3.7 / 5 (3) Oct 29, 2010
Perhaps you're not aware of the massive drug cartel war going on right now just over the border, where Mexican law enforcement are quitting their jobs to avoid being assassinated, and dozens of citizens are being slaughtered out of retaliation,... all in an effort get or stop drugs from entering THIS COUNTRY.
End prohibition of marijuana and watch the cartels lose the majority of their income streams. Fight them the same way Al Quaeda is fighting us.

Our "border security" as so far consists of chasing students with Visas out of the country and deporting people who avctually have necessary work skills.

Yes, from time to time you catch a coyote, or make a drug bust, but the Cartels aren't having issues delivering their product into the states, nor do they have issues crossing the border as far up as Arizona.
ShotmanMaslo
2 / 5 (4) Oct 29, 2010
Why are you afraid of invaders? Do you have WMDs?


With unrestricted immigration, the US will slowly become more and more like the countries the immigrants come from. The standard of living will be lowered.
Modernmystic
2.3 / 5 (3) Oct 29, 2010
FTR I'm not only not against migration, I'm pro-migration. This country became the most powerful productive nation in the world with a pretty liberal immigration policy. That doesn't mean that liberal immigration is NECESSARY for a powerful and productive nation, but I don't think it hurt by any means. I see nothing in the current situation that changes that paradigm.

Increased border security can mean many things, however unless you're willing to start shooting people, the majority of which just want better lives, IMO you're not going to change the current situation drastically. I'm not sure anyone here is willing to do that, though I can't speak for everyone.

Personally I favor broad amnesty with the caveat that you only get legal resident status, not citizenship. You can't vote and you can't hold public office. I know some will disagree, but hey "you" broke the local laws, there needs to be some penalty for that.

My two cents.
PinkElephant
3.7 / 5 (3) Oct 29, 2010
All you border-sealers are naive and clueless.

First of all, look at Israel and Egypt: how successful have they been with sealing off the Gaza/Egypt border? Even a tiny stretch (8.7 miles!) can't be secured despite all the overwhelming resources and manpower brought to bear, when the smugglers are sufficiently motivated. Now extrapolate this to 2000+ miles.

Secondly, have you any idea of the magnitude of trade goods and people flowing across the border? It is all too easy to conceal and smuggle drugs and weapons among all these mountains of containers, trucks, and personal possessions. Never mind "mules" who smuggle drugs inside their own bodies... No practical or affordable inspection approach or technology can cope with such volumes. Hell, we even have trouble securing our airplanes: yet airport environments are infinitely more controllable and controlled than any major border crossing.

Lastly, by increasing scarcity, you drive up profit margins, and thus the motivation.
PinkElephant
4 / 5 (4) Oct 29, 2010
The solution to the drug problem, is to legalize all drugs. Yes, even the most addictive ones. Just stop lying to people, so that they can finally trust what you say about any given drug's effects. Cause the prices to collapse; remove all the mystique and anti-establishment slant from the drug culture; create "clinics" where people can take their drugs under safe and controlled circumstances.

If you want to stop the flow of illegal immigrants, pass a strong national ID act, create strong electronic/biometric/picture ID cards for every citizen, that are very easy and cheap to validate and verify. Then bring the hammer down on any employer that continues to hire illegal workers. Create enough precedent, with enough of a penalty in each case, and you've addressed the problem at its root.

In both cases, as long as there is strong demand, there will always be sufficient supply, no matter how hard you try to bankrupt yourself while attempting to squelch it.
Skeptic_Heretic
3.7 / 5 (3) Oct 29, 2010
Why are you afraid of invaders? Do you have WMDs?
With unrestricted immigration, the US will slowly become more and more like the countries the immigrants come from. The standard of living will be lowered.

If you would simply think before you post this sort of stuff....

The US at it's inception became the great nation it was because it didn't suffer from the immigration bias that their European forebearers suffered from. Cultural diversity, as America's values dictate has brought ideologies from widely different cultures together, bringing forth brand new ideas and concepts. I say as our values dictate, because we often don't follow those values. Secondly, the "standard of living" is adjusted to happiness. Have you ever seen how happy South Americans are? It's like being in a cult. Those people have nothing and their smiling from ear to ear. Not everything is about your personal pile of gold.
My two cents.
Make that 4, I'm on board with this idea.
StarDust21
1 / 5 (2) Oct 29, 2010
I about tore out my hair when our dearest leader gutted the Constellation program.


That program was going nowhere and was basically a step backwards in manned spaceflight technology. The idea was to go back to 70s technology of the apollo program. The money is better used now imo
otto1932
1 / 5 (2) Oct 29, 2010
Increased border security can mean many things, however unless you're willing to start shooting people
The borders ARE being sealed in the only way possible, as mm naively pointed out- cartels are shooting anyone who can't pay to cross. Quantity of the influx is being replaced by quality, as only the most determined and resourceful can now immigrate. The demographic quota has been largely fulfilled.

Oh and as usual, organized crime serves the same Authority as everybody else. Because as organized crime is Inevitable, it behooves Those In Charge to establish it first and best. It is extremely useful to play both sides of the table; that way one never loses.
zslewis91
5 / 5 (1) Oct 29, 2010
This is great:)
Skeptic_Heretic
2.3 / 5 (3) Oct 30, 2010
Different situation. Most drugs in the USA are smuggled in from across the BORDER, while illegal stills where already IN the USA, making prohibition and "stopping the flow of booze" not possible to begin with.
The majority of Drugs used in the US are manufactured or grown in the US.
In theory, having a border between the market-demand and the drug-cartels should be an advantage IF the border is ever locked down resoundingly.
Didn't stop the Canadian and Irish whiskeys from making it into the US.
IMO, Sealing the border would be a humanitarian accomplishment. I refuse to believe it is not possible for the USA to secure the border in 2010, when China did it 2200 years ago. It's not done because it is politicized.
I think you need a head check here.
CarolinaScotsman
3.7 / 5 (6) Oct 30, 2010

With unrestricted immigration, the US will slowly become more and more like the countries the immigrants come from. The standard of living will be lowered.

Same exact thing was said about the Italians 100 years ago. Read history. Many different countries and ethnic groups have been scapegoats for "close the border" arguments. In the end, the immigration, both legal and illegal, ended up helping us grow in positive ways. I repeat, read history.
CSharpner
5 / 5 (1) Oct 30, 2010
you fucking nationalist, boo fucking hoo..what a bunch of Fat Head, RETARD, amaricans worried about there superiority, get a clue. go read a fuckoing book. who cares...im an amarican. a real one...and you fuckin idiots make me one leave this backwords, hillbilly land....fucking retards....go cry me a fucking river cause no one with a mind gives two shits about whos Cluster's faster....in 5 years tiem it will be deemed slow...retards. the whole lot of you

I grow increasingly tired of every story on this site being used as an excuse to vilify whoever you don't vote for.

The hate and vile spewed on these threads is far below my expectations of what one would expect from a science site.

Please read this other physorg story that's directly related to these types of comments:
http://www.physor...319.html

Oh! Don't forget to down vote my comment as I'm sure it will convince all other readers that hate sp
CSharpner
5 / 5 (1) Oct 30, 2010
(Continued)
...that hate speech is tolerated here.
Bitflux
not rated yet Oct 31, 2010
The only way to fight drugs, is to help humanity to a level where they do not need to use drugs to free themselves from fear, unhappiness or other reactions to a world that doesnt work. Fear is our worst enemy and is probably the greatest reason for all the bickering in here - fear of a world that is different than the one in our comfortable little minds. Get out of your comfort zone.
frajo
5 / 5 (2) Oct 31, 2010
you fucking nationalist, boo fucking hoo..what a bunch of Fat Head, RETARD, amaricans worried about there superiority, get a clue. go read a fuckoing book...
I grow increasingly tired of every story on this site being used as an excuse to vilify whoever you don't vote for.
The hate and vile spewed on these threads
...
it will convince all other readers that hate speech is tolerated here.
While "fucking nationalist" and "Fat Head, RETARD, amaricans" certainly is insulting it does not, however, constitute hate speech.
Hate speech, as I understsnd it, is verbally expressing one's wish that somebody/some group of people should be dead, killed, violated, tortured.
HTK
1.8 / 5 (5) Oct 31, 2010
Well, the 5% bigger brain of oritentals from caucasions are finally starting to show. I wonder what they will be upto next for the elusive greater good for humanity, a quality I hope they will catch up with the west.

Never fear, it's just the signs of times. I guess the oriental's time is near. But America still holds the key to the greatest in humanity and that is humanity itself. Freedom.

There is no country on earth socio-politically and culturally endorsed and have application of freedom so well established as America. And that top spot will almost certainly not be conceded to anyone anytime soon.

So do not worry Americans. Be proud of your achievements.
Skeptic_Heretic
5 / 5 (1) Nov 01, 2010
Gotta be trolling. Looking at the rest of the thread, HTK can be easily ignored.
Glyndwr
not rated yet Nov 02, 2010
HTK......freedom can't truly exist in US with the state still there....are you pre teen angsting

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