Scientists say dolphins should be treated as non-human persons

This is interesting, but let's not go way overboard. We don't even treat babies like persons - at least in Canada, a baby is not a person until it is fully and finally born. So let's get our priorities straight.

Joefarah, you forget. To abortionists logic doesnt apply. I've had arguments with abortionists that insist that animals have rights, but unborn humans are not human so shouldn't have any rights at all.

Its like arguing with certain germans in the 1930-1940's saying jews are human.

this only shows how stupid the author of this article was or , if he was misleading scientists into giving their philosophical opinions in order to 'generate news'
this isn't news. it's crap. it's like me saying dogs are smart and that i love them so much. that's not news.
keep this trash off physorg

Considering the real reason abortion has been legitimized throughout the world, in light of the 1 BILLION abortions post 1950s and its effects on relative political and economic stability (in western countries anyways)... Without it there would only be more people reaching maturity only to be marched off to the front lines.

Obviously.

So we should consider in this case whether or not dolphins can serve in the armed forces of their own free will; and in fact we know they can:
http://en.wikiped..._dolphin
(that was too easy)
This leaves only their duty to declare allegience to a country (or to sue for independence through the appropriate advocacy groups) and be considered eligible to vote. RFID implants could be used to keep track of their financial worth.

This is the CLASH of Science vs. Human Egos:

We spend $$$$ on science programs trying to find other earth-like planets and listen for signs of intelligent life out in the galaxy.

HOWEVER, we DON'T try to establish communications with other obviously intelligent creatures on THIS planet - Why? No scientific reason - just a huge EGO problem. "they're just animals!"

And every time some independent researcher actually tries, the world scoffs at the results.

Humans are idiots.

Wild dolphins have been known to rescue people at sea, they undestand something is different about us and they show compassion even when humans have caused them so much death. Even if they only have the IQ of a child is it right to kill them? Science is about learning new things, understanding and useing that knowledge to better ourselves. We stand at the top of the food chain that don't mean we have to kill everything to live or that we have the right to.

Wild dolphins have been known to rescue people at sea, they undestand something is different about us and they show compassion even when humans have caused them so much death. Even if they only have the IQ of a child is it right to kill them?

They've also hearded people towards sharks to distract the sharks from their food sources and hidden young. Don't assume they're entirely altruistic, they do realize that we feed them.

I'm intrigued by the study of dolphins. How wonderful would it be to discover that advanced sentience isn't limited to homonids alone.

"My dog is smart and I love him so much"?!?! That's easily the most ignorant comment I've heard in weeks!

Nada couldn't have said it better... We've spent over $30 million on Radio Dishes to search for ET life - but god forbid we spend $1500 on a peer-reveiwed study that might change the way we think about intelligent life on our own planet.

Remember, less than 100 years ago people were hanged for saying a black man had rights or was "Human." Let's not forget where we came from... and where we're trying to go.

Remember, less than 100 years ago people were hanged for saying a black man had rights or was "Human." Let's not forget where we came from... and where we're trying to go.

15 years from now, we will have dolphins harvesting coral on our coral plantations, singing sad dolphin songs.

The hardware side (brain matter density, size, folds, etc) of judging intelligence is speculative at best. For sure there is some kind of brain size minimum for higher thinking, but making inferences of how intelligent a creature is or isn't based on neural matter - is as silly and outdated as the people that still believe life can only exist in the Goldilocks zone. Btw - many extinct hominid species have massive brain sizes (Neanderthals have a larger fossilized brain cavity than modern humans) and that is why we have so much space junk from all of the satellite launches by ancient hominids ;-)

The researchers need to do more to prove intellectual prowess by testing actual capabilities before making any claims about this species status as a critically thinking biological equal...

And yes I like dolphins too

I'm not clear on what is meant by been "treated as a non-human person." I hope that doesn't translate on taxes or imprisonment ;-) Now really, chimps, gorillas, crows, African-gray-parrots, pigs, elephants, dogs, and cats and what did i miss? Surely our ethics will need a major revamping before the end of this century!

There seems to be something fundementally wrong with the notion because x is smarter than y then x should not be killed.

What if some advanced fish developed an underwater city and started targeting humans on the surface with atomic death rays because they were on the loosing end of that equation?

Brain size and folds don't tell the whole story. My understanding from previous articles on the subject is that the sort of mesh level (density interconnections with other nerves) are very important -- perhaps even the most important indicator of intelligence. Looking at size and shape of structures alone is just scratching the surface of this issue.

@Hernan - It means they will be allowed to vote Democrat.

Ok, that was in poor taste, I just couldn't resist.

I think it is just an "oh, PETA :rolleyes:*" statement. Should dolphins as a sentient organism be given 'special' treatment re: not being killed or eaten? Certainly. Should they be entitled to purchase property and allowed to vote, etc.? Not until we have a consistent method of communication on an everyday level between our species. Is this a societal change that will be accepted around the world? Certainly not. Case in point: apes/chimpanzees are intelligent enough to learn a language (sign language) and communicate with humans; people still eat monkey brains and other bush meat.

715 years from now, a dolphin will be in the white house.

Wrote a comment and didn't see it... maybe it was too long. In one sentence: How about we start treating OUR species ethically?

They've also hearded people towards sharks to distract the sharks from their food sources and hidden young. Don't assume they're entirely altruistic, they do realize that we feed them.

That is a bunch of B.S. Show us some evidence for your claim.

That is a bunch of B.S. Show us some evidence for your claim.

http://luna.pos.t...ler.html

http://www.nwf.or...eep.aspx

There are many articles concerning dolphin on human as well as dolphin on dolphin violence out there. There's a reason why people want the practice of "dolphin therapy" banned, and it has nothing to do with exploitation or harming dolphins.

"treated as a non-human person."
-I was reflecting on this type of designation for terminal cancer patients who wanted to sign away their rights to full humanhood in return for access to unapproved therapies. Healthy but untouchable-? Temporary somehow like incarceration?

There are already gradations based upon trust- not safe outside prison, only safe with supervision, cant vote or protect onesself because of prior felony; as well as credit limitations which can seriously reduce quality of life.

Just cause dolphins dont have feet and a middle finger dont mean they couldnt walk all over ya. Just wait- gene engineering gives apes and dolphins and maybe mules voiceboxes-

Zev buddy- maybe youre one of the few that antidepressants would actually help >:[

I love the one about dolphins buying property, all my friends are calling dibs on property in the arctic ocean when all the ice melts...and i'm the one selling it!!

Dolphins don't know the difference between sand and water. Since so many dolphins beach themselves, they are ignorant of their environment. They have eyes, they can see sand. I think they are not as smart as a dog. Dogs know the difference between sand and water.

"professor of ethics and business"? This would seem to be a disjoint set...

More to the point:

Scientists studying dolphin behavior have suggested they could be the most intelligent creatures on Earth after humans, saying the size of their brains in relation to body size is larger than that of our closest relatives, the chimpanzees, and their behaviors suggest complex intelligence./q]
Two problems here:
1) What percentage of that brain is used for sonic signal processing? How much for abstract cognition?
2) The tainting of the observed behavior by the observer's preconceptions, emotions, and other filters make it hard to separate the observer from the observed. This has always been a problem in human anthropology and trying to study a non-human organism provides far worse problems. [/blockquote]

Dolphins don't know the difference between sand and water. Since so many dolphins beach themselves, they are ignorant of their environment. They have eyes, they can see sand. I think they are not as smart as a dog. Dogs know the difference between sand and water.

I thought dolphins beach themselves to escape brain damage when the Navy sonar throws off their sonar, like whales.

15 years from now, we will have dolphins harvesting coral on our coral plantations, singing sad dolphin songs.

How do we know that's not happening now? The navy uses them for experiments: http://www.essort...rjms.htm

I'm still waiting for that word on how to treat our non-human ET friends.

To VINDOC, I'm pretty sure that dolphins know the difference between sand and water, not so sure about you though. First of all, some dolphins go into the shallows for a better food source, like any animal or human that takes a risk. Some do well, others pay for it.
Obviously not all dolphins do this for food, some are just stupid like some humans are stupid and decide that jumping into the polar bear habitat at the zoo is okay.
Secondly, dogs know the difference between sand and water too. Dogs are very smart, can learn a variety of commands and tricks, and are generally able to see sand as well as a dolphin. I don't know a thing about how exactly smart dolphins are, but from what I've read, dolphins have better abstract thinking and problem solving skills than dogs.

Monkeys are able to talk in sign language at the three year old human level. That's been reproduced several times. Nobody has shown dolphins able to do that. And the monkey mother teach their children sign language. So what if dolphins teach each other stupid pet tricks?

Wild dolphins have been known to rescue people at sea, they undestand something is different about us and they show compassion even when humans have caused them so much death.

Dogs have also been known to rescue people. What is your point exactly? Should we also treat dogs like people too? Chimpanzees and even crows have been shown to use primitive tools. What is it that makes dolphins worthy of people status, and other animals simply "animals"? Oh wait, it's their "brains in relation to body size." *Sigh*

In my opinion, the dolphins, dogs - well even grass is incredibly more intelligent than the entire human race put together - at least they arent trying to kill themselves with pollution, war, economics and what not

Try widen your perspective to a global one! The greatest disease this planet has contracted is called "Homo Sapiens" - i hope i'm dead when it mutates into "Homo Superior"

Monkeys are able to talk in sign language at the three year old human level. That's been reproduced several times. Nobody has shown dolphins able to do that.

Seeing as they don't have hands your argument is fairly foolish.

Dolphins self identify and give themselves names. They use these names to communicate and announce their presence and locations to each other. They coordinate and attack or defend like military units do. There's stacks and stacks of research on how dolphins communicate in almost the same ways as humans do with each other. Just because we don't understand it doesn't mean they don't.

Great.. So now that their huge intelligence have been again confirmed (sort of), somebody please tell this to Japanese people, who are slaughtering them and eating them...

Great.. So now that their huge intelligence have been again confirmed (sort of), somebody please tell this to Japanese people, who are slaughtering them and eating them...

You mean the fishing villages in Japan that are primarily Korean or the government, which is trying to ban the process.

You mean the fishing villages in Japan that are primarily Korean or the government, which is trying to ban the process.

Let me clarify, to make it simple... Tell it to all those Japanese who are eating dolphins in restaurants or otherwise.
If you cannot stop the industry, you can always try to reason with people..
And government not being able to stop this? You actually believe this?..
A second biggest economy in the world can manage without this disgrace, dont u think so?

And help those villagers to live on pig farms instead..

You're rather ignorant of Japan's resources. Japan has the lowest amount of arable land when compared to all other developed nations. They receive the majority of their food from the sea. Pig farms won't cut it. That's a big part of the reason why Japan hasn't banned the process.

No sir. I am sorry, but those are just excuses.. If it is really impossible to compensate for this dolphin food, which I do not believe, than import it...
After all, we are not talking here about feeding 50 million people...

Many of the comments pro and con are trivial at best. The only way to know if dolphins are intelligent is to continue to research and test. If they are, there is much that could be accomplished through cooperation. Those who would eat an intelligent being will continue regardless of the findings. Pity any intelligent E.T. life we may find..they will want to eat them, too if possible.

It's strange but this just brought to mind a quote from a movie... I'll paraphrase... an animal doesn't have to prove it has intelligence for me to have compassion for it... Someday we may find ourselves in the position of being treated as less than what we think we deserve, I wonder if those who treat us as lesser beings will have a second thought about whether or not we are intelligent or if it will matter?

I wonder what it means to be treated as a "non human person"? That will keep the lawyers and legislators busy for quite awhile!

Maybe long enough that we can get some non-human intelligences (computers of course) in to run the economy and infrastructure for us! Everyone will benefit.

In order to enable Dolphins to defend themselves, we humans should perhaps invent a universal language for them and teach it to as many of them as possible. Then we could say "Dolphins, do not go near Taijii, Japan!"

I suspect that dolphins are the "next most intelligent" animals on the planet, depending of course on what we mean by "intelligent." It is very likely that they have not developed a universal language. Would it not be great to teach them one? Will we regret it?

No sir. I am sorry, but those are just excuses.. If it is really impossible to compensate for this dolphin food, which I do not believe, than import it...
After all, we are not talking here about feeding 50 million people...

Enjoy your ivory tower.

@Hernan

"treated as a non-human person." I hope that doesn't translate on taxes or imprisonment

Well, I assume they could draw duty and hazard pay which could subject them to income tax. They could use their income to pay in part for illness caused by sonar and pollutants (or for health insurance), or for legal representation to recover such. The question is. what do dolphins WANT? They havent shown much inclination beyond eating and playing that a disposable income could be used for. Although I certainly wouldnt call them 'useless eaters'. Dolphins could be trained for terrorist missions against japanese whalers thereby saving much fiberglas and kevlar, but if caught could they be found culpable? I say tweek their genes a little, lets hear whats on their minds. We may have a responsibility to educate them if they attain citizenship. Or them us? Its a living-

Don't dolphins already communicate with each other using sounds? I doubt it's as complex as a full language but i would like to see a study where they actually tried to communicate with dolphins in their own way.

I can communicate with my dog better than I can with a dolphin. Equal rights for canines! I do detest the homocentric attitudes. Bees are very bright too and much older than humanity.

It is reassuring that such information can stir such a variety of emotional response. We should review our attitudes toward other creatures, particularly very intelligent animals.

Look we ARE the second most intelligent species on Earth. The bad news is that you humans are in third place (as many of the above comments so aptly demonstrate). The good news is that you will soon move into the number two spot because we're leaving! Unfortunately, the other bad news is that shortly thereafter the Earth will be demolished to make way for construction of a new hyperspace bypass. Anyway enjoy your brief reign as IQ second bananas and ....

"So Long and Thanks For All The Fish!"

Call forth your inner Dolphin!

http://www.youtub...gnWNZzdg

There are many articles concerning dolphin on human as well as dolphin on dolphin violence out there. There's a reason why people want the practice of "dolphin therapy" banned, and it has nothing to do with exploitation or harming dolphins.

I STILL didn't see anything about Dolphins "herding' people towards sharks.
Of course they are wild animals, and have bitten people. If you were a dolphin, and some guy jumped in the water and started fondling you, you would probably bite him too...

"So Long and Thanks For All The Fish!"

I appreciated the reference. Someone out there is no fun with the insta-1 rating.

From the office of the Prime Minister of the Dolphin Nation of the North Atlantic Congress:

Dear Fellow Humans,
On behalf of all dolphins in the oceans of the world, we are ashamed that you would consider calling us "non-human" persons.

We demand a formal apology and 10 million tons of fish as reparations for your comments.

Thank you.

Dolphine XVII
Prime Minister of Dolphinatica
DSNA (Dolphin States of the North Atlantic)

Dolphine XVII

I hate the French.

Great. Now that they're "persons" how do we get them to pay taxes?

Intelectual capacity shouldn't be considered a criteria to stipulate whether a being
should suffer or be eaten.

If so, a mentally diseased human, without any capacity of reasoning or communication,
could be sold by its family as the special dish of the day...

And if absolutely no one felt that was a problem, it wouldn't be. It is, because people develop attachments and empathy. Being a member of the same species a human doesn't require the intellect, another species does. It's a balance of sorts...

F*#k You Dolphin and Whale!

I don't know why there is such a controversy over making dolphins "non-human persons".

Recall that the United States treats "corporations" as non-human persons TODAY!

Treat them as "non-human persons..."

You mean like we treat Afghanis and Iraqis and Mexicans and Nigerians and Ethiopians and everybody else that doesn't look like us and talk like us?

And if absolutely no one felt that was a problem, it wouldn't be. It is, because people develop attachments and empathy. Being a member of the same species a human doesn't require the intellect, another species does. It's a balance of sorts...

Not a balance. It's a bias. A genetic bias to defend those that share our traits. ie: other humans. That's why we anthropomorphosize features of our pets. So we can mentally relate to them.

Dogs, chimps, pigs, elephants, and now dolphins. It would be so much easier to just bring back cannibalism so we wouldn't have to "profile" our food.

ignoring all the side bar, I think it is ridiculous to think of them as people. I don't think even the requestor thinks it should be so. It was just a way to catch attention.

I think when Dolphins ask to be let out of parks they should be. If anything the tail walking trick would show that for that individual dolphin his time in captivity was beneficial.

Think of how popular he must be now after showing all the others his trick.

The piece is error ridden. Firstly, the dolphin's brain has a much lower neural density than humans, only around 25%. That means, to have the same number of neurons as a human, their brain would have to be four times bigger if the dolphin was physically the same size as a human (Dolphins are bigger).

Apart from that, the dolphin brain has far more taken up by the senses due to their use of echolocation etc etc all explained in detail in 'Do Animals Think?' by Clive D.L.Wilson, Princeton University Press, 2004

Not so fast. That book clearly has an agenda. We don't have a measurement for higher intelligence and perception. All those "smart size" studies are filled with biases as Steven Gould demonstrated with his "brain size" measurements.

Areas that count are more dense:
"A high ratio is necessary for such things as emotional control, objectivity, reality orientation, humor, logically consistent abstract thought, and higher creativity. There seems to be a clear correspondence between the ratio and these abilities. Cetaceans have a ratio that surpasses even the healthiest of humans. This is supported by behavior studies of captured dolphins who show a high amount of playfulness and enjoyment even when in captivity. Humans under such circumstances would not fare quite so well."

More measurements to contemplate:

https://www.msu.e...tm#sect2

We don't understand as much as we think we do and should respect all as we would respect ourselves.
FUNDAMENTAL COMMON SENSE

The brain size argument has been put aside as they've found that Wasps with their incredibly small but very densely well connected brain shows greater adaptive processing power than most small rodents.